for those who want world pvp, spontanius duel, i see one solution that wotna ffect pvm for other players.:
the only sulotion i see if when two go in a duel, the mosnters will be weaker and act as if there were 2 players in the game, but this can be abused by letting 2 people "duel" to enweaken the mosnters. maybe specific duel areas can prefent the abuse. this is in my opinion the only sulotion for duel in a pvm game.
Yeah, I thought about a solution like this...but why? I mean if two people are going to essentially leave the game to go duel (despite still being in the game), why not just use Arena for duels and no world-PvP? It doesn't make sense to invest development time that essentially mimics an Arena feature.
Just to be clear here, No I am not looking for a feature to ruin peoples experience. I have stated many times that I liked hostility feature, however I am not blind and see that it had some flaws and will not be in Diablo 3 for legit reasons. The idea I purposed solved the issues with hostility to make it viable for Diablo 3.
What I was asking for is that Blizzard stop putting their nose in the PvP section because they obviously don't know how to handle it, and give us the basic options we had in Diablo 2 minus the hostility part, let us customize the arena with 1v7, ffa, hot swappable teams after a match, ect. Basic shit that should be a given but yet is not. And most of all, a way to duel mid game if wanted, at least give us a WP to an arena in game so I don't have to make 5 games just to play how I want, that is bad design.
You say that you understand why hostility isn't a good option. You also say that you want players to have control over PvP. How do you propose Blizzard add this control? To implement a fully customizable Arena system that is enforced by the engine would be a rather larger developmental undertaking. Since most of the casual players would prefer to just play Arena with matchmaking, how can you justify this development sink? I understand why you want the features, but its just not a very good option.
Any mid-game dueling ruins the fun of potentially two other players if allowed in public games. Such a duel option would have to be private games only to be viable. Implementing a private game only PvP feature that only a minority would actually use seems like a bad idea. While it wouldn't be hard to implement (likely anyways), it'd be development resources that could be better put to use on more PvM content or Arena content that benefits more players. Honestly, if you have to invite someone to duel anyways.. why wouldn't Arena work for duels?
You could create a game that would be tagged "hostility enabled" if you want the excitement of possibly getting ganked.
The flag cannot be turned on/off once the game is launched, to prevent verbal harassment.
This way :
People who don't like PvP join/create normal games.
People who want to get ganked create hostility-enabled games.
People who want to gank join hostility-enabled games.
Sounds like everyone will be happy to me !
I've explained this in another thread, but it doesn't work with the way Diablo 3 is designed. It would have to be a separate queue from normal games, and as the majority don't want hostility...you'd end up with excessively long queue times. I have a feeling the situation would only be worse with hardcore characters.
Ha when and who did I insult? Thus far I have been as calm as a soothing river. I mention one thing about how I enjoy PvP and that there are multiple ways to play Diablo and there is no "right" way and you guys blow blood vessels and shit yourselves. Seriously, you think you guys are calm? Haha. See you in game, well see how calm you are.
Also I want to take you up on that offer of going back on D2 and joining public games. I want you to join those PvM games and those trade games, I want you join say 100 and I want you to ask what they are PvMing for, is it to PvP? Or is it to kill monsters and kill time? Do the same with trade games, see if they are trading for PvP gear, or are they trading to make the game easier? I would LOVE it if you did that and provided proof of such, if you can actually do that and get a result that shows that PvM is superior especially at this time zone then you win buddy.
It's not really worth my time to 'prove you wrong or right' as it's 12~ years old now I could easily see that more of the hardcore players being shooting for eventual PvP and I cannot ask the people using passwords. As for being calm, I don't think I've been 'blowing blood vessels'. I've really only been giving logic as to why hostility, rankings, etc..are bad options for Diablo 3 based on it's design. I'm not the one complaining and making multiple threads purely to complain about the same thing, ignoring anytime someone explains WHY it is the way it is. Nope, I'm calmly trying to explain and offer better suggestions to give similar features to those that the PvP crowd wants.
Since I'm getting what I want by not having hostility and griefing be a part of the game already, I don't even get your comment about 'see you in game'. Honestly, I have little to 'complain' or 'blow a blood vessel' about at all, other then maybe having to repeat myself a few hundred times because people don't read.
Back on topic, I think I've gone over why hostility doesn't really 'work' in Diablo 3. A game focused around only 4 players that requires those players to progress actually inhibits having people just go off and PvP. Adding a separate game mode could maybe happen 5-6 years down the road after people finally get bored of repeating the same PvM content (assuming they aren't still adding to it then), but for the near future it would just be a bad investment of resources. A separate hostile-enabled PvM queue wouldn't be used by the majority of players for the first few years, and as such would just create long queue times. Glitterpony offered some interesting ideas, but they still have these issues. If anyone has suggestions to solve em, I'd love to hear em.. but so far, I haven't.
It does in a way, but I posted it more to show how jaded and double sided the Diablo community is. You guys sit there in this very thread and bitch and moan how Diablo is a PvM game first, and pretty much saying, if you are playing to PvP you are playing wrong and you should find a new game. Even the developers have said stupid shit like that, this is coming from another game developer and he is pretty much saying, hey the game is for the customer..they buy it...they play it...we have no authority to tell them how to play, they make their own rules and we should recognize that and not tie their hands because I don't feel that is how the game should be played.
Of course...I doubt many here will actually comprehend the statement and continue to be PvM white knights, it is ok...cause you are the same people who will quit within a year and then the real community can take over just like in D2.
See, its really funny that you keep saying PvM players are bitching...when overall we're calm, attempting to explain things, give suggestions, etc. Do you accept any of the suggestions? No...you continue to complain, insult, seemingly ignore posts, etc. We're the ones complaining though, right? Why would we be 'complaining'? We've ALREADY GOT WHAT WE WANT. There is little reason for us to complain. No, what we're doing is trying to explain WHY YOU ARE WRONG in your understanding of how the game mechanics you want would affect the community.
Honestly, I don't even think you know the Diablo community at all...I haven't been on Diablo 3 in around six months or something, but I'm pretty sure if I went on that most of the public games would be PvM and/or Trade related games. Add to that the fact that most players that are actually trying to progress through the game (and not rush) tend to make passworded games (doubly so for hardcore players) and it says pretty clearly that you're WRONG. PvP isn't the main focus of Diablo 2 even, much less the focus of Diablo 3. I expect we'll have 1-3 expansions for Diablo 3 as well, on top of likely monthly/bi-monthly free content. Expecting PvM players to quit after a year also won't likely happen, especially if they haven't quit Diablo 2 after 12~.
You want PvP because that's what you enjoy, I get that...and I want you to be able to PvP. Guess what, you CAN! You just cannot force others to PvP that don't wish to and you cannot ruin other's progression just because you want to challenge someone. Blizzard isn't tying your hands, they simply made a different game then Diablo 2. From what I understand they aren't shutting down the Diablo 2 servers anytime soon. You're free to keep playing the PvP style you like so much, while other players play the NEW PvP experience offered by Diablo 3. I mean, if you're such a dedicated player, that shouldn't be a problem right?
Complaints? Hardly, ill enjoy the PvM till I beat it within first week, then ill move onto PvP full time once it gets released. I have posted nothing but suggestions and information to not so knowledgeable posters who think they know about Diablo, but clearly by their post do not know anything at all. I forgot, it is not acceptable to post in a PvP section about Diablo, even worse to post suggestions to make the PvP more unique and better all around..silly me!
Just curious, why do you even insist on always posting in this section when you clearly hate PvP, and haven't done PvP in apparently ages, and also seem to do nothing but say same old few paragraphs. You do nothing here but bitch about how Diablo is PvM based and that resources are better spent on your part of the game haha. You talk about business buddy, guess what...there are two sides to every coin. If you neglect one side, you only have half value, business is about selling a product, even if that means to a crowd that you don't necessarily agree with. I don't know what business you are running where you can shun your customers and still be profitable, but I guess keep it up friend.
I don't hate PvP. In fact...if you actually READ my posts. You'll realize that I've been suggesting options to give players more open PvP within the design of Diablo 3 and in a way that doesn't harm the PvM design. I've also been EXPLAINING using statements that Blizzard has made themselves as to why things like hostility, rankings, etc...do not fit into the design of Diablo 3. Why do I keep posting the same thing over and over?...Perhaps it's because the PvP crowd seems to continually make the same complaints without actually thinking of how it would affect the overall community if their desires were actually implemented.
Blizzard has said themselves they do not want the game to be driven by PvP. So my comments about PvM being more important are based on facts. The community has responded in similar fashion, stating that many of them would prefer to see more PvM content then more PvP options.
On the note of business, you're wrong. Blizzard doesn't want their to be 'two sides' in Diablo 3. They want to offer a fun casual PvP experience in the hope that a lot of the people who would ignore PvP otherwise would actually participate. In addition to that, the majority of their player base is buying the game for PvM. This means that focusing on PvP options and neglecting more PvM content would be a BAD business move for Blizzard to make. They are doing the right thing by finishing the game, then adding a casual and fun PvP system with the goal of getting everyone playing all aspects of the game. The wrong thing to do would be adding features that split the community, only appeal to a minority, etc...
He makes a valid point, the game is so auto tuned and bubble wrapped up that it is impossible to not say it was created for people who were bullied or grieved. What other reason to remove such a simple mechanic of damage from breakable objects. Like someone is actually going to die to those...and someone is actually going to spend all game hitting them perfectly on you haha. Either way, regardless of what they do to try and protect the player, there will be griefing, if you think otherwise...you are obviously new to the Diablo community haha.
Guess it won't be a game for you eh? Go find a game that gives you more thrill and let those of us that actually appreciate and understand Blizzard's motives enjoy the game. I mean, all you've been able to post is complaints...you cannot possibly actually want to play the game in it's current state...so don't.
Actually, you can't. You obviously have no idea how the Diablo 3 engine works at all. There are no passworded games...only public / private games. There is no game list either, so no means for you to have a hostile game and let people know either. Hostility is a bad system in general as it offers nearly no positive benefit to the community while offering a ton of negatives. I've explained why, and you have yet to give a counter argument. Instead you use insults...Blizzard should definitely listen to you...right?
So him asking for world PvP is unreasonable? So what you are saying is, lie down and shut up? So since we are close to launch, it is absolutely pointless to give ones opinion on how they want the game to be, or features they wish were in it. I see how it is...just drink the kool-aid and everything will be all right.
Yes, it is unreasonable to just complain and actually not offer a solution to the problems behind the issue. I've explained WHY world PvP and hostility are negatives considering the design of Diablo 3. In it's current state it is unreasonable to actually implement without just being a negative on the community. If suggestions to fix said issues were offered, there would be more justification to the complaint. As it is, there was no suggested solutions and the problem has been explained in depth in various threads. So.. yes.. its unreasonable to continue to bring it up unless ya have more to bring to the table other then complaints.
You got this information from Blizzard directly, which is fine. However I really don't see the game being that difficult. It is a game meant to be soloable, you are essentially a god killing horde of demons. I don't see them ramping the difficulty up so much to where it is impossible for players to kill stuff with 2 fighting and 2 in town. So by your theory here, I can easily go to town with my friend and essentially your co-op game is totally ruined because you need all 4 to even proceed? They wouldn't build the game that way, so hostility, or dueling mid game should have little to no effect on the co-op or it is poorly designed.
Actually, they said they SPECIFICALLY built the game that way. If people need to go to town, the entire team is supposed to go to town. This is the impression I've gotten from everything they've stated about how the system works. If you're playing with other players, you're expected to assist in progressing through. So, yes...in-world dueling will cause problems for players. Its a PvM game with optional structured PvP, not a PvP game with optional PvM. Again, this issue has been beaten to death in other threads.
Nothing wrong with the RMAH, his point is that it makes it less enticing to farm end game content when you can simply and easily buy it. Yes it existed in Diablo 2, however there were still plenty of people who didn't use it because it didn't seem safe. Now it is a safe avenue. With that ability, why would I waste 24 hours of my life farming for end game gear, when I can spend that 24 hours working and spend a little cash to make my life easier? That is going to kill end game farming for me, so why couldn't it for others? Because it doesn't for you it is automatically great for the community?
No, its not because I like it that it's great for the community. Its the fact that it will bring in constant income, allowing additional content to be produced by paying for developers to keep working on the game, pay for GM's, pay for servers, etc. The RMAH allows us to get more out of Diablo 3. I remember some blue posts mentioning the potential of monthly or bi-monthly PvM content additions and/or quests being possible specifically because of the RMAH. This is why it'd be good for the community. In addition, by making it safe for everyone, they will have less to worry about when it comes to scams and such. If you feel better about spending cash for items, then so be it. If someone else feels like farming for the items you buy for cash.. well look, you both win!
Don't see the OP as crying at all. He displayed his opinion of how he played Diablo. Just like many of us have, where world PvP and PvP in general were the main aspects for end game. Just because he didn't MF or have issues killing monsters like a bunch of the PvM crowd doesn't make him a troll or wrong.
If you wanna generalize him as a troll, you generalize majority of PvP players as trolls, which is to say just as easy for me to generalize PvM players as carebears. Am I right? Probably not.
You do realize that many of us that are posting against the PvP complaints actually have interest in the PvP system of Diablo 3 right? So 'carebear' doesn't fit the majority of us at all...sorry.
As for why people keep posting AGAINST these kind of threads is because the requests are unreasonable. The game is nearly released, asking for these kind of radical changes to the engine at this point is completely unrealistic. The best option for someone that feels this way about the game...is to not buy it.
I've explained in other threads as to why these features do not work, but I'll re-post it here...
Hostility doesn't work with the current design of Diablo 3. It was mostly used for griefing in Diablo 2 and segmented the community. In addition, due to the way Diablo 3 balances a game based on the number of players, you actually need most if not all of the players to effectively progress. This means that two people dueling mid-public game would essentially force the other two people to quit in order to keep playing...segmenting the community again. Hostility just doesn't work with the way Diablo 3 is designed.
The RMAH is actually a benefit to the community of Diablo 3. Many people complain about it allowing people to buy power, but people bought power all the time in Diablo 2. All it took was 3rd party websites setting up semi-automated shops using bots. I cannot even count the number of times I had people ask me to wait a minute while they bought gear for their newly leveled character. At least Blizzard will make a profit off of this trading in Diablo 3, allowing for more direct support for the game (PvM content, PvP content, Tech support, GM's, etc). I don't see how anyone can see this as a bad thing.
So, there you have it... both of the OP's complaints have been beaten to death, but keep getting brought up. This is why you see people assume troll and treat as such so often. I, myself still prefer to just point out WHY things were designed the way they were based on the information we have access to. In the end though, if people don't like the game so much that they are complaining it's a failure...they just shouldn't buy it. Buying a game when you say you hate it really seems silly, at least to me.
Yeah, I thought about a solution like this...but why? I mean if two people are going to essentially leave the game to go duel (despite still being in the game), why not just use Arena for duels and no world-PvP? It doesn't make sense to invest development time that essentially mimics an Arena feature.
You say that you understand why hostility isn't a good option. You also say that you want players to have control over PvP. How do you propose Blizzard add this control? To implement a fully customizable Arena system that is enforced by the engine would be a rather larger developmental undertaking. Since most of the casual players would prefer to just play Arena with matchmaking, how can you justify this development sink? I understand why you want the features, but its just not a very good option.
Any mid-game dueling ruins the fun of potentially two other players if allowed in public games. Such a duel option would have to be private games only to be viable. Implementing a private game only PvP feature that only a minority would actually use seems like a bad idea. While it wouldn't be hard to implement (likely anyways), it'd be development resources that could be better put to use on more PvM content or Arena content that benefits more players. Honestly, if you have to invite someone to duel anyways.. why wouldn't Arena work for duels?
I've explained this in another thread, but it doesn't work with the way Diablo 3 is designed. It would have to be a separate queue from normal games, and as the majority don't want hostility...you'd end up with excessively long queue times. I have a feeling the situation would only be worse with hardcore characters.
It's not really worth my time to 'prove you wrong or right' as it's 12~ years old now I could easily see that more of the hardcore players being shooting for eventual PvP and I cannot ask the people using passwords. As for being calm, I don't think I've been 'blowing blood vessels'. I've really only been giving logic as to why hostility, rankings, etc..are bad options for Diablo 3 based on it's design. I'm not the one complaining and making multiple threads purely to complain about the same thing, ignoring anytime someone explains WHY it is the way it is. Nope, I'm calmly trying to explain and offer better suggestions to give similar features to those that the PvP crowd wants.
Since I'm getting what I want by not having hostility and griefing be a part of the game already, I don't even get your comment about 'see you in game'. Honestly, I have little to 'complain' or 'blow a blood vessel' about at all, other then maybe having to repeat myself a few hundred times because people don't read.
Back on topic, I think I've gone over why hostility doesn't really 'work' in Diablo 3. A game focused around only 4 players that requires those players to progress actually inhibits having people just go off and PvP. Adding a separate game mode could maybe happen 5-6 years down the road after people finally get bored of repeating the same PvM content (assuming they aren't still adding to it then), but for the near future it would just be a bad investment of resources. A separate hostile-enabled PvM queue wouldn't be used by the majority of players for the first few years, and as such would just create long queue times. Glitterpony offered some interesting ideas, but they still have these issues. If anyone has suggestions to solve em, I'd love to hear em.. but so far, I haven't.
See, its really funny that you keep saying PvM players are bitching...when overall we're calm, attempting to explain things, give suggestions, etc. Do you accept any of the suggestions? No...you continue to complain, insult, seemingly ignore posts, etc. We're the ones complaining though, right? Why would we be 'complaining'? We've ALREADY GOT WHAT WE WANT. There is little reason for us to complain. No, what we're doing is trying to explain WHY YOU ARE WRONG in your understanding of how the game mechanics you want would affect the community.
Honestly, I don't even think you know the Diablo community at all...I haven't been on Diablo 3 in around six months or something, but I'm pretty sure if I went on that most of the public games would be PvM and/or Trade related games. Add to that the fact that most players that are actually trying to progress through the game (and not rush) tend to make passworded games (doubly so for hardcore players) and it says pretty clearly that you're WRONG. PvP isn't the main focus of Diablo 2 even, much less the focus of Diablo 3. I expect we'll have 1-3 expansions for Diablo 3 as well, on top of likely monthly/bi-monthly free content. Expecting PvM players to quit after a year also won't likely happen, especially if they haven't quit Diablo 2 after 12~.
You want PvP because that's what you enjoy, I get that...and I want you to be able to PvP. Guess what, you CAN! You just cannot force others to PvP that don't wish to and you cannot ruin other's progression just because you want to challenge someone. Blizzard isn't tying your hands, they simply made a different game then Diablo 2. From what I understand they aren't shutting down the Diablo 2 servers anytime soon. You're free to keep playing the PvP style you like so much, while other players play the NEW PvP experience offered by Diablo 3. I mean, if you're such a dedicated player, that shouldn't be a problem right?
I don't hate PvP. In fact...if you actually READ my posts. You'll realize that I've been suggesting options to give players more open PvP within the design of Diablo 3 and in a way that doesn't harm the PvM design. I've also been EXPLAINING using statements that Blizzard has made themselves as to why things like hostility, rankings, etc...do not fit into the design of Diablo 3. Why do I keep posting the same thing over and over?...Perhaps it's because the PvP crowd seems to continually make the same complaints without actually thinking of how it would affect the overall community if their desires were actually implemented.
Blizzard has said themselves they do not want the game to be driven by PvP. So my comments about PvM being more important are based on facts. The community has responded in similar fashion, stating that many of them would prefer to see more PvM content then more PvP options.
On the note of business, you're wrong. Blizzard doesn't want their to be 'two sides' in Diablo 3. They want to offer a fun casual PvP experience in the hope that a lot of the people who would ignore PvP otherwise would actually participate. In addition to that, the majority of their player base is buying the game for PvM. This means that focusing on PvP options and neglecting more PvM content would be a BAD business move for Blizzard to make. They are doing the right thing by finishing the game, then adding a casual and fun PvP system with the goal of getting everyone playing all aspects of the game. The wrong thing to do would be adding features that split the community, only appeal to a minority, etc...
Guess it won't be a game for you eh? Go find a game that gives you more thrill and let those of us that actually appreciate and understand Blizzard's motives enjoy the game. I mean, all you've been able to post is complaints...you cannot possibly actually want to play the game in it's current state...so don't.
Actually, you can't. You obviously have no idea how the Diablo 3 engine works at all. There are no passworded games...only public / private games. There is no game list either, so no means for you to have a hostile game and let people know either. Hostility is a bad system in general as it offers nearly no positive benefit to the community while offering a ton of negatives. I've explained why, and you have yet to give a counter argument. Instead you use insults...Blizzard should definitely listen to you...right?
Yes, it is unreasonable to just complain and actually not offer a solution to the problems behind the issue. I've explained WHY world PvP and hostility are negatives considering the design of Diablo 3. In it's current state it is unreasonable to actually implement without just being a negative on the community. If suggestions to fix said issues were offered, there would be more justification to the complaint. As it is, there was no suggested solutions and the problem has been explained in depth in various threads. So.. yes.. its unreasonable to continue to bring it up unless ya have more to bring to the table other then complaints.
Actually, they said they SPECIFICALLY built the game that way. If people need to go to town, the entire team is supposed to go to town. This is the impression I've gotten from everything they've stated about how the system works. If you're playing with other players, you're expected to assist in progressing through. So, yes...in-world dueling will cause problems for players. Its a PvM game with optional structured PvP, not a PvP game with optional PvM. Again, this issue has been beaten to death in other threads.
No, its not because I like it that it's great for the community. Its the fact that it will bring in constant income, allowing additional content to be produced by paying for developers to keep working on the game, pay for GM's, pay for servers, etc. The RMAH allows us to get more out of Diablo 3. I remember some blue posts mentioning the potential of monthly or bi-monthly PvM content additions and/or quests being possible specifically because of the RMAH. This is why it'd be good for the community. In addition, by making it safe for everyone, they will have less to worry about when it comes to scams and such. If you feel better about spending cash for items, then so be it. If someone else feels like farming for the items you buy for cash.. well look, you both win!
You do realize that many of us that are posting against the PvP complaints actually have interest in the PvP system of Diablo 3 right? So 'carebear' doesn't fit the majority of us at all...sorry.
As for why people keep posting AGAINST these kind of threads is because the requests are unreasonable. The game is nearly released, asking for these kind of radical changes to the engine at this point is completely unrealistic. The best option for someone that feels this way about the game...is to not buy it.
I've explained in other threads as to why these features do not work, but I'll re-post it here...
Hostility doesn't work with the current design of Diablo 3. It was mostly used for griefing in Diablo 2 and segmented the community. In addition, due to the way Diablo 3 balances a game based on the number of players, you actually need most if not all of the players to effectively progress. This means that two people dueling mid-public game would essentially force the other two people to quit in order to keep playing...segmenting the community again. Hostility just doesn't work with the way Diablo 3 is designed.
The RMAH is actually a benefit to the community of Diablo 3. Many people complain about it allowing people to buy power, but people bought power all the time in Diablo 2. All it took was 3rd party websites setting up semi-automated shops using bots. I cannot even count the number of times I had people ask me to wait a minute while they bought gear for their newly leveled character. At least Blizzard will make a profit off of this trading in Diablo 3, allowing for more direct support for the game (PvM content, PvP content, Tech support, GM's, etc). I don't see how anyone can see this as a bad thing.
So, there you have it... both of the OP's complaints have been beaten to death, but keep getting brought up. This is why you see people assume troll and treat as such so often. I, myself still prefer to just point out WHY things were designed the way they were based on the information we have access to. In the end though, if people don't like the game so much that they are complaining it's a failure...they just shouldn't buy it. Buying a game when you say you hate it really seems silly, at least to me.