Ok having read through a lot of all this over the past couple of days and I might be able to shed some light on what's going on, although almost everything that I'll say has already been said, I'm just attempting to put it into one post.
It's obvious we have a conflict, and while I could go into extreme detail I'll just clump a lot of it together to make it a little smoother. The PVP crowd wants competition AND balance, the PVE crowd doesn't want anything to change (in extreme cases for both), for the most part. As far as the pvp crowd goes, I believe you are meeting with a lot of resistance because you are 'scaring' the pve crowd. Now I know it's not everyone but its my belief that there are enough posts suggesting full overhauls of class skills, complete removal of some skills from the arena, and/or a change on said skills ( this coming from the demand for ranking, which a majority of people i would say believe that goes hand in hand with extreme balancing). Coming from the pve perspective i completely understand why i would just say screw it don't change a thing, aka 'go play pvp somewhere else'. I know i wouldn't want my skills to be split/deleted just for pvp.
Now to the pve side of people, you need to understand that there is almost jack shit for pvp at the moment, and its easy to understand their frustration. I realize that you as pve'ers don't want to see those awesome skills gone just for pvp ( i know i know another extreme, but I'm just trying to relay what some peoples thoughts are), especially when the argument has been made many times this game is leaning towards pve.
My solution (stolen from like 25 peoples posts put together) is almost what blizzard has already done: In the case of skills, I would only allow slight changes such as stun/snare/dot duration reduction, and some slight increase in CD's of SOME skills. Now obviously this won't balance the game completely, but I think its enough to satisfy the pvp crowd in terms of SOME sort of balance. I would also add a ranking system of some kind ( Maybe split it, like you can go into ranked or unranked matches), and add a couple different game types. Do PVP'ers agree that this would satisfy (maybe not 100%) what you are looking for? And for PVE'ers, would you agree that this won't dynamically change the game in your opinion, and can you live with it?
That's enough about me. My question is: why can't we have the best of both worlds?
But there are ALWAYS solutions, and they really are not that difficult to implement. .
Not difficult to implant? if it wasn't then pvp wouldn't have kept ruining the pve balance and vice versa i WoW... expecting players that maybe play 2-5 hours per week to adjust to different skill stats/effects every time they switch from pve to pvp kind of goes against the whole idea the Dev's have for the Diablo series.
You do realize that we're talking about having different ability effects for PvP (if necessary), therefore it would have no effect on PvE. Explain to me what responsibilities the Diablo 3 "PvP team" would have other than designing PvP only ability effects (again, if it's even necessary on an ability-to-ability basis) and maintaining a respectable ladder system. I think they can handle it. Unless of course it really is 2 guys playing darts all day getting paid for it, like I suspect.
If the Diablo 3 "PvP team" has one tenth as much design talent as the other developers I have a tremendous amount of confidence that PvP in Diablo III has the potential to be absolutely fantastic, while maintaining every bit of it's PvE integrity.
Having a team dedicated to pvp, along with different pvp only skills?? Pretty much goes against almost every game blizzard has made. They have stated time and time again, and it makes sense, you are wanting 2 completely different games; new skills, different balance and whatnot is splitting the game in half. Pretty much the whole reason right there.
The problem with separating skill effects for PvE and PvP is that it creates confusion, especially for the players that won't PvP very often and therefore won't get used to the PvP specific effects. It is much easier for most players to learn how the skills work if they have near identical effects in PvE. With that said they are not turning their backs to PvP balance completely. Both cooldowns and crowd control durations are adjusted for PvP, but not damage and the basic function of the skill.
The only thing that makes me a little sad is that they won't support additional PvP modes. I would love to play some Capture the Flag and King of the Hill, but that won't be possible. When the goal is not simply to kill the opponent there are some significant advantages to playing certain classes/builds. I hope that they will come up with some game modes that are balanced enough to be included in the future, even if none of them are of the conventional type we are used to.
Ughhhhhhh I hate games that are so focused on casuals
let them god damn learn the game instead of simplifying everything
how stupid does blizzard think our gaming generation is? I'm guessing 80IQ> average
Alright bud you need to calm down and understand that almost the entire player base IS casual when compared to the hardcore'rs. like Ophium said it IS way too much confusion, and this IS a video game. Pretend you are Blizz, well you want to make money. Create an extremely complicated game focused to say ~10% of a player base compared to your other games, or create one that panders towards the other 90? Straightforward question i know, but some people still get it wrong.
The problem with separating skill effects for PvE and PvP is that it creates confusion, especially for the players that won't PvP very often and therefore won't get used to the PvP specific effects. It is much easier for most players to learn how the skills work if they have near identical effects in PvE. With that said they are not turning their backs to PvP balance completely. Both cooldowns and crowd control durations are adjusted for PvP, but not damage and the basic function of the skill.
The only thing that makes me a little sad is that they won't support additional PvP modes. I would love to play some Capture the Flag and King of the Hill, but that won't be possible. When the goal is not simply to kill the opponent there are some significant advantages to playing certain classes/builds. I hope that they will come up with some game modes that are balanced enough to be included in the future, even if none of them are of the conventional type we are used to.
Personally i would be happy with those games modes even if they WERE imbalanced, it would just prove to be a challenge =)
jay wilson said he wants it to be a PvE driven game.. so.. that's all that needs to be said right?
Exactly, this is a PVM game almost pure and simple. You should be happy they even implemented an arena style. Now sure i do love pvp but i understand im buying and playing this game to kill monsters with my buddies. I would love to see a ranking of at least win/loss on my toon sheet sure, but the argument that people will re roll just to clear their w/l doesn't hold water with me. With all the time that would be spent to maxing your toon i really think people will just keep playing. And hell what if they do re roll? moar time spent in the game is pretty much the whole goal of the D3 team.
But aside from some statistics and maybe a couple different game modes, I'm really against having a whole new set of skills JUST for pvp. As stated before it would be extremely complicated, then of course if THOSE don't work out, god forbid, I can just see the Dev team sweating for months trying to balance it all out. Pretty much you are asking for a different game then they are making. I'm sure Blizz would love to have a perfectly balanced game to get the most out of its player base, but with the style and format of D3 its just unreasonable. I predict other pvp modes and maybe some ranking if people whine enough, but don't hold your breath for a balanced pvp alongside brand new talents. What do we have now? ~20 skills per class, x5 with runes. so 100 skills, being able to pick any 6, that's a ridiculous amount of versatility. Anyway, i think the path they are on now is near perfect, i would just be happy that the games finally getting ready to come out =D
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It's obvious we have a conflict, and while I could go into extreme detail I'll just clump a lot of it together to make it a little smoother. The PVP crowd wants competition AND balance, the PVE crowd doesn't want anything to change (in extreme cases for both), for the most part. As far as the pvp crowd goes, I believe you are meeting with a lot of resistance because you are 'scaring' the pve crowd. Now I know it's not everyone but its my belief that there are enough posts suggesting full overhauls of class skills, complete removal of some skills from the arena, and/or a change on said skills ( this coming from the demand for ranking, which a majority of people i would say believe that goes hand in hand with extreme balancing). Coming from the pve perspective i completely understand why i would just say screw it don't change a thing, aka 'go play pvp somewhere else'. I know i wouldn't want my skills to be split/deleted just for pvp.
Now to the pve side of people, you need to understand that there is almost jack shit for pvp at the moment, and its easy to understand their frustration. I realize that you as pve'ers don't want to see those awesome skills gone just for pvp ( i know i know another extreme, but I'm just trying to relay what some peoples thoughts are), especially when the argument has been made many times this game is leaning towards pve.
My solution (stolen from like 25 peoples posts put together) is almost what blizzard has already done: In the case of skills, I would only allow slight changes such as stun/snare/dot duration reduction, and some slight increase in CD's of SOME skills. Now obviously this won't balance the game completely, but I think its enough to satisfy the pvp crowd in terms of SOME sort of balance. I would also add a ranking system of some kind ( Maybe split it, like you can go into ranked or unranked matches), and add a couple different game types. Do PVP'ers agree that this would satisfy (maybe not 100%) what you are looking for? And for PVE'ers, would you agree that this won't dynamically change the game in your opinion, and can you live with it?
Having a team dedicated to pvp, along with different pvp only skills?? Pretty much goes against almost every game blizzard has made. They have stated time and time again, and it makes sense, you are wanting 2 completely different games; new skills, different balance and whatnot is splitting the game in half. Pretty much the whole reason right there.
Alright bud you need to calm down and understand that almost the entire player base IS casual when compared to the hardcore'rs. like Ophium said it IS way too much confusion, and this IS a video game. Pretend you are Blizz, well you want to make money. Create an extremely complicated game focused to say ~10% of a player base compared to your other games, or create one that panders towards the other 90? Straightforward question i know, but some people still get it wrong.
Personally i would be happy with those games modes even if they WERE imbalanced, it would just prove to be a challenge =)
Exactly, this is a PVM game almost pure and simple. You should be happy they even implemented an arena style. Now sure i do love pvp but i understand im buying and playing this game to kill monsters with my buddies. I would love to see a ranking of at least win/loss on my toon sheet sure, but the argument that people will re roll just to clear their w/l doesn't hold water with me. With all the time that would be spent to maxing your toon i really think people will just keep playing. And hell what if they do re roll? moar time spent in the game is pretty much the whole goal of the D3 team.
But aside from some statistics and maybe a couple different game modes, I'm really against having a whole new set of skills JUST for pvp. As stated before it would be extremely complicated, then of course if THOSE don't work out, god forbid, I can just see the Dev team sweating for months trying to balance it all out. Pretty much you are asking for a different game then they are making. I'm sure Blizz would love to have a perfectly balanced game to get the most out of its player base, but with the style and format of D3 its just unreasonable. I predict other pvp modes and maybe some ranking if people whine enough, but don't hold your breath for a balanced pvp alongside brand new talents. What do we have now? ~20 skills per class, x5 with runes. so 100 skills, being able to pick any 6, that's a ridiculous amount of versatility. Anyway, i think the path they are on now is near perfect, i would just be happy that the games finally getting ready to come out =D