Yes you're right, IAS on Mainhand is of no use for Sprint damage. Only DPS on your Mainhand matters, and the Stats of your Offhand.
So normally Crag Hammers or Demolishers are the best MH Weapons for this build.
But I want to make another consideration. When using Weapon Master passive (what is normally included in this build) and you have enough crit (35%+) without a Mace/Axe you should definitely try a Mighty Weapon. The increased fury generation from a Mighty Weapon with Weapon Master is just freakin awesome. I switched to it yesterday cause I had luck with crafting a Massacre Axe and thought I give it a try. The increased fury generation let you use WW more often, esp when you have very luck as I had and got +15 max fury on my weapon and thus put out more overall damage. Second advantage is that you can keep up Sprint more easily and thus make your farm runs even faster in areas with low monster density.
So for pure Sprint Damage High Damage Maces are best, but to make real use of the synergies of this build a mighty weapon yields more overall damage in my tests.
A valid point, however, consider these following counters. (Note that this is only specific to my build and gear, response mileage may vary with other readers)
Fury generation per hit - I have two things to say to this, the first is that I use Bash - Instigation, instead of leap which I understand to be a common alternative. Hence in terms of generation when mobs are not nearby, bash serves most purposes on perpetuating Fury generation for sprints on destructibles. Secondly, in conjunction to your response on being able to use WW more often. I currently have 53.5% crit chance hence, in most cases, I am able to maintain appropriate generation to have 95%+ WW uptime, in conjunction to sprinting around a single target mob. Thus I'm not so sure that I would yield a small if any overall damage if I took your suggestions.
Following onto your point, I am lead to believe that the reason why most people switch to fury weapons is due to the fact that they kill mobs in too few hits (too high spreadsheet DPS) to generate adequate fury off of them to maintain sprint. Hence the switch is to a mighty weapon is mainly used to maintain suitable fury levels, while relatively little damage output. Also, the fury weapon is there to supplement the WotB - Thrive on Chaos rune to achieve as high uptime on berserker as possible. If you're interested in seeing this particular WWSprint barb build variation put to on show. Kripp has a great video where he clears A3 with really high uptime:
I think most people only do this when they have a great amount of DPS to not be able to get the full benefits of sprinting past trash mobs and refreshing a full fury meter. (I'm ballparking approx 80k+)
Quick question to those who are very knowledgeable about the finer points of the build.
When selecting a MH weapon, high DPS, slow weapon speed is key, as this translates to boost skill modifiers based on weapon damage - i.e. Sprint.
Now, how exactly is the "based on xx%" weapon damage calculated based on your weapon? Do they take the DPS? do they take the maximum weapon damage? averaging max and min? Do they factor in all values not including attack speed? or is weapon increased attack speed factored in as well?
I ask this as I am currently trying to decide between higher DPS i.e. 1200 1h maces with 8+ % IAS, or 11xx 1h maces with 0% IAS (Yes, both contain sockets). Right now I seem to be unable to find a spreadsheet designed specifically to simulate WWSprint barb action. (Any help on this front would be particularly helpful too!)
Thanks in advanced.
EDIT: I suppose this applies to all Weapon DMG skill questions for any class?
Your mainhand determines the tornado damage, your general attack speed determines the number of "ticks" your tornados do.
This means that your attack speed does effect your tornado damage since you get more hits with them per second.
Go by DPS when buying a main hand don't settle for a lower DPS weapon just because its slower.
I had considered that fact. However, referencing the first reply to my original post - the MH weapon damage is used quite frequently with your OH weapon speed when utilising attacks such as WW (working as intended or glitch who knows). This piece of information is further supported by any one of Kripp's WWbarb tutorial vids. If this is the case, you would actually lose overall DPS by picking a weapon with inherent IAS on it. (A bigger discrepancy in weapon speeds between OH and MH would yield better results).
However, I guess it should be noted that Sprint does constitute ~80% of overall DPS, so it might still be the better option to go with your suggestion of going by raw displayed weapon DPS.
Actually, it seems like sprint goes by DPS (similar to whirlwind), however it is messed up and uses your main hand damage with the speed of your currently active weapon. So if you are dual-wielding and whirlwind (thus alternating weapons), some of the time it will use your main hand DPS, and the rest of the time it will use your main hand damage with your offhand speed. Therefore a slow main hand would increase the damage your sprint does, and so will a fast offhand. Since only main hand weapon damage is used, offhand can have low damage as long as it comes with good stats (life on hit, crit damage, socket for more crit damage).
A spreadsheet isn't easy to create because there are too many variables that are hard to predict. Though I suppose a rough calculation could be made if one would insist, but eventually if you want the best damage for your gold (unless you have enough gold to buy the best weapon in the game), you will obviously get it with a mace that has no attack speed on it. And if you aren't super-rich settle for just a socket or just crit damage rather than both.
Sure, whirlwind uses both weapons as you would normally expect, but sprint is the real damage dealer with this build - Whirlwind is just a bonus.
My question has been largely answered by this response.
To supplement, I have found out that IAS on the weapon itself does not affect "xx% weapon damage" calculation on respective skills. Hence purely looking at weapons in terms of raw DPS is inaccurate for maximising skills with damage based on weapon damage.
A better effective measurement is to calculate what output the weapon would yield without the IAS included. i.e. calculating the average of the total (incl. elemental dmg, min/max dmg, other dmg modifiers) and using that as a rough estimate when comparing weapons.
Quick question to those who are very knowledgeable about the finer points of the build.
When selecting a MH weapon, high DPS, slow weapon speed is key, as this translates to boost skill modifiers based on weapon damage - i.e. Sprint.
Now, how exactly is the "based on xx%" weapon damage calculated based on your weapon? Do they take the DPS? do they take the maximum weapon damage? averaging max and min? Do they factor in all values not including attack speed? or is weapon increased attack speed factored in as well?
I ask this as I am currently trying to decide between higher DPS i.e. 1200 1h maces with 8+ % IAS, or 11xx 1h maces with 0% IAS (Yes, both contain sockets). Right now I seem to be unable to find a spreadsheet designed specifically to simulate WWSprint barb action. (Any help on this front would be particularly helpful too!)
Thanks in advanced.
EDIT: I suppose this applies to all Weapon DMG skill questions for any class?
Can a pair of Inna legs have dexterity and 2 sockets? I've searched soo many pages and could not find any set of pair with dexterity + 2 sockets, and gave me the impression that i've seen it somewhere.
Long time peruser of Diablofans, thought I'd jump into forum activity in anticipation for the release.
Having recently gotten access to the beta through the open beta weekend, I was most intrigued by the mechanics of the Demon Hunter and spent most of my time testing different builds. Although obviously a large portion of the game has yet to be released and tested, I'd like to provide my thoughts on what I believe to be a solid end game spec.
The Rocketeer is a build focused on end game solo sustainability. Similar to that of the D2 trapsin, the Rocketeer is designed to maximise sentry dps (while maintaining hero kiting efficiency). One thing that I have noticed through watching videos are that monsters in later acts are extremely agile, and while the DH has a plethora of valuable escape skills, I've noticed that trying to utilise a slow-shoot-kite approach advocated by a good portion of the posted builds in this section, depletes discipline far too quickly while not allowing enough time to generate hatred required for larger amounts. This system seems to have harsh diminishing returns considering the large amounts of micro required. If nightmarish mobs on Normal gave my character unnecessary difficulty, think of the potential hazards one might encounter on Infernal. I will however advocate certain stun-orientated builds I have come across, as the current AOE stun mechanic seems to be just as effective in keeping the DH at a healthy range from mobs.
A description of reasoning and possible variations follow:
Key Notes
The Sentry
Cornerstone talent of the Rocketeer build, the sentry will provide consistent damage output regardless of what the DH is currently doing. Passive talents have increased both its damage, and duration to 60 seconds per sentry, assuming 1 second cast time per sentry, there is approximately a maximum 10 second setup to create a "base" of 3 sentries -> prep (invig) -> 4 sentries -> pull with the base discipline pool of 30. This allows for a 50+ second uptime where all sentries will be firing simultaneously. Few if any other skills provide this amount of damage output per second for the entirety of the 50 seconds duration and assuming base discipline regeneration, and one use of shadow power, by the time the sentries have expired, all cooldowns will be available for a fresh "base" setup.
Also note that boss fights in D3 seem considerably more phased and coordinated than that of D2 hence setups which can be sustained and managed effectively seem to be best suited for battling a mix of grouped minions and the boss him/her/itself.
Additional weapon damage per sentry: 20%
with Spitfire Turrent Rune: 28%
wIth Ballistics Passive: 32%
assuming Steady Aim Passive functioning: 38.4%
Note that the damage is assumed (obviously incorrectly) to be cumulative on one target. Abilities such as on Rain of Vengeance cast on more than 5 targets (5*75=375% weapon damage) are naturally more effective spells for dealing with multiple mobs, however, the cooldowns associated with such spells render a persistent farm more difficult. Flexibility is also an issue.
While I have considered the possibility of using Marked for Death - Contagion in place of Preparation. We wont know exactly how much maximum discipline an end game DH will have until the actual game's release and which side wins in the sentry count vs. sentry output argument. Some simple modelling at that point should suffice.
Steady Aim is another debatable topic. While the first two passive talents are quite intuitive, the third is up for grabs. Perhaps Night Stalker or Perfectionist are possible alternatives?
Primary - Entangling Shot
As the DH will require a slow effect on fast moving mobs on higher difficulties, it is natural that the Entangling Shot with the Chain Gang rune be chosen. While a case can be made for Hungering Arrow to provide more direct dps, the effectiveness of the Rocketeer build lies in its persistent non-specific damage. Entangling Shot serves to impair multiple mobs' movement speed providing the greatest overall utility increase to the build. Damage dealing in this case should be focused on other talents.
Strafing and Kiting
While the sentry provides a good portion of the output, what makes this build so seemingly strong is its aim at maximising DH firing rate while kiting. Strafe and Rapid Fire both aim to maintain high dps regardless of whether or not the DH is stationary or on the move.
Both actives are immediately aided by the Ballistics talent and I have combined this with Shadow Power (runed with Shadow Glide) in the event that mobs close the distance on the DH. Shadow Power maintains survivability whilst also increasing the effectiveness of strafe speed (videos have shown them to stack). This ensues that the DH is never surrounded and hence takes damage from minimal mobs from a pack at one time (while the sentries are hopefully mowing the rest down).
While I considered Caltrops for a substitute instead of the speed-augmenting Shadow Power as a 60% movement reduction is intuitively more. Usage requires kiting around a specified area, of which I believe a 12 yard radius to be insufficient. However, a case can be made for the short discipline cost and cooldown of the pick. Only further in-game testing will yield valid results.
Perhaps if damage is sufficient, then Rocket Storm could be replaced with the Drifting Shadow rune hence favouring more kiting efficiency over output.
Misc
Preparation - Invigoration seems like the best candidate for instant effect in the case of a preemptive need for turrent placement on low discipline. Perhaps Focused Mind might also been a worthy alternative? While we are not given any sort of values as to what the end game discipline pool of a DH could be, Focused Mind suggests that it will be far less than 45 (if it is to be considered anything but garbage). Taking this into account, I have already found one item with the property of augmenting discipline +1 - meaning that there is a potential to easily exceed the 45 discipline given over 15 seconds through FM. Hence Invigoration should be the superior choice.
Follower?
Critique away.
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A valid point, however, consider these following counters. (Note that this is only specific to my build and gear, response mileage may vary with other readers)
Fury generation per hit - I have two things to say to this, the first is that I use Bash - Instigation, instead of leap which I understand to be a common alternative. Hence in terms of generation when mobs are not nearby, bash serves most purposes on perpetuating Fury generation for sprints on destructibles. Secondly, in conjunction to your response on being able to use WW more often. I currently have 53.5% crit chance hence, in most cases, I am able to maintain appropriate generation to have 95%+ WW uptime, in conjunction to sprinting around a single target mob. Thus I'm not so sure that I would yield a small if any overall damage if I took your suggestions.
Following onto your point, I am lead to believe that the reason why most people switch to fury weapons is due to the fact that they kill mobs in too few hits (too high spreadsheet DPS) to generate adequate fury off of them to maintain sprint. Hence the switch is to a mighty weapon is mainly used to maintain suitable fury levels, while relatively little damage output. Also, the fury weapon is there to supplement the WotB - Thrive on Chaos rune to achieve as high uptime on berserker as possible. If you're interested in seeing this particular WWSprint barb build variation put to on show. Kripp has a great video where he clears A3 with really high uptime:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWsCgYodZ1Y
I think most people only do this when they have a great amount of DPS to not be able to get the full benefits of sprinting past trash mobs and refreshing a full fury meter. (I'm ballparking approx 80k+)
I had considered that fact. However, referencing the first reply to my original post - the MH weapon damage is used quite frequently with your OH weapon speed when utilising attacks such as WW (working as intended or glitch who knows). This piece of information is further supported by any one of Kripp's WWbarb tutorial vids. If this is the case, you would actually lose overall DPS by picking a weapon with inherent IAS on it. (A bigger discrepancy in weapon speeds between OH and MH would yield better results).
However, I guess it should be noted that Sprint does constitute ~80% of overall DPS, so it might still be the better option to go with your suggestion of going by raw displayed weapon DPS.
Thoughts?
My question has been largely answered by this response.
To supplement, I have found out that IAS on the weapon itself does not affect "xx% weapon damage" calculation on respective skills. Hence purely looking at weapons in terms of raw DPS is inaccurate for maximising skills with damage based on weapon damage.
A better effective measurement is to calculate what output the weapon would yield without the IAS included. i.e. calculating the average of the total (incl. elemental dmg, min/max dmg, other dmg modifiers) and using that as a rough estimate when comparing weapons.
When selecting a MH weapon, high DPS, slow weapon speed is key, as this translates to boost skill modifiers based on weapon damage - i.e. Sprint.
Now, how exactly is the "based on xx%" weapon damage calculated based on your weapon? Do they take the DPS? do they take the maximum weapon damage? averaging max and min? Do they factor in all values not including attack speed? or is weapon increased attack speed factored in as well?
I ask this as I am currently trying to decide between higher DPS i.e. 1200 1h maces with 8+ % IAS, or 11xx 1h maces with 0% IAS (Yes, both contain sockets). Right now I seem to be unable to find a spreadsheet designed specifically to simulate WWSprint barb action. (Any help on this front would be particularly helpful too!)
Thanks in advanced.
EDIT: I suppose this applies to all Weapon DMG skill questions for any class?
No.
Having recently gotten access to the beta through the open beta weekend, I was most intrigued by the mechanics of the Demon Hunter and spent most of my time testing different builds. Although obviously a large portion of the game has yet to be released and tested, I'd like to provide my thoughts on what I believe to be a solid end game spec.
The Rocketeer
http://us.battle.net...gVki!hUY!abcaaY
The Rocketeer is a build focused on end game solo sustainability. Similar to that of the D2 trapsin, the Rocketeer is designed to maximise sentry dps (while maintaining hero kiting efficiency). One thing that I have noticed through watching videos are that monsters in later acts are extremely agile, and while the DH has a plethora of valuable escape skills, I've noticed that trying to utilise a slow-shoot-kite approach advocated by a good portion of the posted builds in this section, depletes discipline far too quickly while not allowing enough time to generate hatred required for larger amounts. This system seems to have harsh diminishing returns considering the large amounts of micro required. If nightmarish mobs on Normal gave my character unnecessary difficulty, think of the potential hazards one might encounter on Infernal. I will however advocate certain stun-orientated builds I have come across, as the current AOE stun mechanic seems to be just as effective in keeping the DH at a healthy range from mobs.
A description of reasoning and possible variations follow:
Key Notes
The Sentry
Cornerstone talent of the Rocketeer build, the sentry will provide consistent damage output regardless of what the DH is currently doing. Passive talents have increased both its damage, and duration to 60 seconds per sentry, assuming 1 second cast time per sentry, there is approximately a maximum 10 second setup to create a "base" of 3 sentries -> prep (invig) -> 4 sentries -> pull with the base discipline pool of 30. This allows for a 50+ second uptime where all sentries will be firing simultaneously. Few if any other skills provide this amount of damage output per second for the entirety of the 50 seconds duration and assuming base discipline regeneration, and one use of shadow power, by the time the sentries have expired, all cooldowns will be available for a fresh "base" setup.
Also note that boss fights in D3 seem considerably more phased and coordinated than that of D2 hence setups which can be sustained and managed effectively seem to be best suited for battling a mix of grouped minions and the boss him/her/itself.
Additional weapon damage per sentry: 20%
with Spitfire Turrent Rune: 28%
wIth Ballistics Passive: 32%
assuming Steady Aim Passive functioning: 38.4%
Damage output by sentry number:
1 - 38.4%
2 - 76.8%
3 - 115.2%
5 - 192%
7 - 268.8%
Note that the damage is assumed (obviously incorrectly) to be cumulative on one target. Abilities such as on Rain of Vengeance cast on more than 5 targets (5*75=375% weapon damage) are naturally more effective spells for dealing with multiple mobs, however, the cooldowns associated with such spells render a persistent farm more difficult. Flexibility is also an issue.
While I have considered the possibility of using Marked for Death - Contagion in place of Preparation. We wont know exactly how much maximum discipline an end game DH will have until the actual game's release and which side wins in the sentry count vs. sentry output argument. Some simple modelling at that point should suffice.
Steady Aim is another debatable topic. While the first two passive talents are quite intuitive, the third is up for grabs. Perhaps Night Stalker or Perfectionist are possible alternatives?
Primary - Entangling Shot
As the DH will require a slow effect on fast moving mobs on higher difficulties, it is natural that the Entangling Shot with the Chain Gang rune be chosen. While a case can be made for Hungering Arrow to provide more direct dps, the effectiveness of the Rocketeer build lies in its persistent non-specific damage. Entangling Shot serves to impair multiple mobs' movement speed providing the greatest overall utility increase to the build. Damage dealing in this case should be focused on other talents.
Strafing and Kiting
While the sentry provides a good portion of the output, what makes this build so seemingly strong is its aim at maximising DH firing rate while kiting. Strafe and Rapid Fire both aim to maintain high dps regardless of whether or not the DH is stationary or on the move.
Both actives are immediately aided by the Ballistics talent and I have combined this with Shadow Power (runed with Shadow Glide) in the event that mobs close the distance on the DH. Shadow Power maintains survivability whilst also increasing the effectiveness of strafe speed (videos have shown them to stack). This ensues that the DH is never surrounded and hence takes damage from minimal mobs from a pack at one time (while the sentries are hopefully mowing the rest down).
While I considered Caltrops for a substitute instead of the speed-augmenting Shadow Power as a 60% movement reduction is intuitively more. Usage requires kiting around a specified area, of which I believe a 12 yard radius to be insufficient. However, a case can be made for the short discipline cost and cooldown of the pick. Only further in-game testing will yield valid results.
Perhaps if damage is sufficient, then Rocket Storm could be replaced with the Drifting Shadow rune hence favouring more kiting efficiency over output.
Misc
Preparation - Invigoration seems like the best candidate for instant effect in the case of a preemptive need for turrent placement on low discipline. Perhaps Focused Mind might also been a worthy alternative? While we are not given any sort of values as to what the end game discipline pool of a DH could be, Focused Mind suggests that it will be far less than 45 (if it is to be considered anything but garbage). Taking this into account, I have already found one item with the property of augmenting discipline +1 - meaning that there is a potential to easily exceed the 45 discipline given over 15 seconds through FM. Hence Invigoration should be the superior choice.
Follower?
Critique away.