I'm not very familiar with DHs but wouldn't a skill build around prep punishment, night stalker, and cluster arrow allow for very high e-dps if thats all you'd be looking for.
Thats like 3 extra cluster arrow, but you lose 25 dicipline, you know the ressource they use to even stay alive. Thats the problem you are asking them to die, in order to do same damage as everyone else? I dont think it would actually even do the same damage as everyone else, its 3 cluster arrow per use the prep punishment for 25 dicipline. Youd never regen 25 dicipline back quickly enough even with 100% crit to keep using cluster arrow. Let alone keep gloom up to not die?
Using punishement every 3 second 25 dicipline (being very conservative here, you can most likelly fire much faster)
Using Shadow power every 6 sec. 14 dicipline
Youd need to be able to regen a little over 10 dicipline per second, not happening anytime soon. Only way it could possibly work is if night stalker did not have a "chance" to proc on crit and just proc on crit period. Right now its 15% chance to work on your 50-60% chance of crit. It most likelly work on ceoficient like everything else so its actually much lower then 15% for most spells, especially anything that cleaves or aoe.
There is many DH problems. But 2 of them are dependant on the other, theres 2 routes to fix it.
On one side, spells of DH looks to be doing correct damage coefficients. Some of them just cost way too much. They just have terrible mechanics or next to no practical use in the meta game. Look at cluster arrow, look at how shit that thing is compared to HotA or WoL. It does less damage then either of these, cost more ressource, oh and best of all its radius and way of use is just pure shit.
So if you dont fix the shit ass mechanics, you gotta buff the damage, DH has nothing that stacks togheter like others. The best DH can do is stack Spike traps echoing blast and spam bola shot at the same time. Its still not close to the damage A HotA barb like me can punch up or a good monk, My rend crit ticks for more then a DH bola shot can crit in the same gear. My HotA hits for more then 6 spike traps ever could. Because im buffing myself to 400kpaper dps when im in combat. Even if that DH had straight 400k paper dps he does not get close my my kill speed. I know one of my best friend is a DH. I personnally left the class after they nerfed inferno and farming became so easy, DH was only good to finish inferno in the first week of this game.
Passive like Shaprshooter and Steady aim looks good on paper, but they are just pure shit. There is very little synergy in DH passives unlike every other classes. Even WD has some crazy passive synergy to pump up some massive dps with the correct gear.
The last problem, Healing for DH is an aboslute chore and literally forces every single DH build ever to use Shadow power gloom, you cant have a build without it and farm any high MP. If you do you are an idiot, thats what the game is telling you. Why is that? No its not because Shadow power gloom is OP. Have you ever tried to get Life steal or loh as a demon hunter? DH gets by far the worse coeficient of healing. LS because of the low damage, look at the huge LS from shadow power, i get better life steal tick as a barb or a monk with 6% lol. Dont even get started on LoH, DH spell has the worse coeficient out there. To have any meaningful healing a DH needs 15% LS from gloom, its not possible to survive with anything less.
All of these problems could be fixed with some rebalance, ei: give DH better healing coeficient on spells, change one of the trash passive to LS (Brooding lol, im regenerating 1% of my life per second useful lol!). Reduce hatered cost dramaticly or update the damage to match other classes expensive moves or make their mechanics not suck.
To anyone telling these DH they are not correct to ask for help, get the hell out of here. DH is pretty much the only class that is not optimal to play in groups at high MP. You dont want the DH there at all, hes just slowing you down compeltly. Give me a Sac WD or Zombie bear. Hell next patch give me an archon wizard, anything produce more damage or brings more useful buffs. That is why they need help, if you cant understand that then stop posting in this thread.
Some great points here and thanks for posting, and its good to have an outside-class perspective that is not completely clueless about the class' problems.
With that said, I'd like to add that the main problem with LS% for DHs comes from our weapons.
We simply cannot get a top tier dps weapon with life steal a 1300 dps 2 sock dex manticore cannot roll Life Steal -- Its that simple.
This automatically gimps us and says "you have to run SP to do anything"
While Windforce can roll life steal% it still leaves a huge damage hole, not to mention that our mitigation/survivability given by life steal% for DHs is super low because our effective DPS is super low. If we did a lot more actual TRUE DAMAGE PER SECONDlower life steal% would be required to keep us alive.
The fact that we need 15% life steal AND 35% dmg reduction in order to barely survive means that our damage is waaaay too low as those #s are extremely overpowered if taken at face value.
If you look at the videos I made you will see that even with that large amount of life steal/mitigation given by gloom I still have a chance to die. While TOKIO running with exact same gear with only 3% life steal (or less not exactly sure if his weapon even has 3% I just know he does not run 2 life steal weapons) and exact same BASE EHP (resist, lower HP than my DH because of quiver difference, armor) has no problem surviving what so ever because of his extremely high E-DPS eventhough hes running WAY lower life steal% and WAY lower mitigation (since I am perma gloomed).
my wishlist:
+ ~10% skill dmg to Hatred Generator i.e. Hunger Arrow
+ ~30% skill dmg to Spender ie Elemental Arrow
+ x2 dmg rain of vengence, reduce 15s cooldown
my 280k dps DH with archery only clear act3 mp5 much slower than my 180k dps Monk cos 280k is always stay at 280k while monk can buff and convic mantra to around x2-x3 damage not mentioning in 2 sec u can throw 3 WOL 800% dmg
I like this wishlist haha. I think that they really need to lower the Cooldown on Fan of Knives and make the base radius the radius of the increased radius rune, hail of knives.
^ Decided to just record a quick video of my Monk in "Glass Cannon" gear.
Spent half the time running around since 25k HP and 180 AR is a little low for MP10, and my CotA clear times are still decent compared to what DH are capable of.
Thanks for the Video TianZi -- I think we will need to show blizzard later on once the PTR updates that the Rapid Fire buff is a Joke... lol
There is no way to play MP5 as efficiently as other classes as a DH, unless your gear is in the billions. And I find your suggestion humurous, telling us to use traps to 3 shot an elite @ MP5 when that's what decent geared barbs and monks are doing on MP8.
Also, you may not know this, but with the changes last patch added, MP10 is by far the best MP to farm for loot and exp. This is only going to get more evident next patch with NV buffs being multiplicative and with extra exp (also multiplicative) as well extra mf and gf past cap per party member meaning 5 stack MP10 in a party will be the best exp and best loot.
The only reason DHs never openly revolted against being innefective on higher MPs was because they were only less effective at key farming and ubers (however, there have been threads about how DHs eficiency is bad on high MPs for many months now, especially on oficial forums). This is something more in line with what you're trying to say. But now that MP0-1 is no longer the most efficient way to farm loot and exp, wich is this game's primary goal, there simply is no way to ignore how bad DHs now have it.
Buff DHs for great justice.
(EDIT)
AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP USING LEGACY NAT AS AN EXCUSE. IT'S A BROKEN SET THAT NO LONGER DROPS, EVEN IF IT WAS THE ABSOLUTE PANACEA, WICH IT ISN'T FOR ANTYHING BUT LOW MP SPEED FARMING OR TO RELEASE A SKILL AND/OR A PASSIVE SLOT FOR NO DPS GAINS, THERE WOULD NOT BE ENOUGH LEGACY NATS FOR EVERY DH OUT THERE.
"Playing mp5 as efficiently as a geared demon hunter does will result in a much greater amount of demonic essences and arguably a similar amount of legendaries with item levels worth identifying. "
its too bad but after they changed/fixed mp10 its not anymore.
Also, legacy nats is nothing that anybody has/could get and with it you will STILL be slower at mp5 then a tornado and even then a hota barb, not to mention an equally geared tempest rush monk that can use fleet footed and still kill packs faster then you as a dh (if the packs wouldnt move at all and stack up nicely in front of you it would, could, be maybe as fast but they dont do it^^).
I swap my gear from monk to dh a lot and i really tried all the builds now and monk is faster, easier, has more options in builds and its less frustrating.
DH is a tiny bit cooler and i enjoy playing calamity dh so i play him sometimes until i sold the calamity overpriced or blizz fixes some stuff. Whatever comes first^^
Again with the pissing contest.. It doesn't matter if you do something on MP5 and another class is forced to a higher monster power because of the functionality if the end result is the same.
What the patch is changing is monster density in acts and letting Nephalem valor stacks have new multiplicative properties in MULTIPLAYER, MP10 still has the same ups and downs it always has. This however is a discussion about the demon hunter class so don't start confusing people or yourself for that matter by including the shitstorm that forcing everyone to play multiplayer brings.
This whole scam about being able to farm the largest amount of xp and getting the largest amount of loot at the same time has blown up because most players havn't taken the time to analyze it because it seems like this miracle. What these runs lack is the biggest factor in keeping an interest towards the game, significant character progression. Getting to P100 in the process of losing between 4000 and 5000 demonic essences and closer to a 500 million in gold is not worth it. If you think your motivation is low now, just wait until you hit P100 and the only reason you play is because you want to. We can all agree that item level makes a huge difference between the potential quality of the item, and different monsters have a different chance to drop these high level items. What this MP10 trash farming results in is the MOST loot, not the best loot.
Fury is not a naturally generating resource, it actually degenerates after a short time which is the reason why main nukes like Hota require a dousin skills that directly support it while you naturally have to gear towards it. Both monks and barbs basically work this way and you always have to pick a speciality to focus on while a demon hunter will do great all around because of the numerous tools it has that arn't really connected to each other as much as they are connected to the players preferences.
I don't understand what the huge problem is that MP10 is complicated for a class that is designed for lower tiers which comes with great benefits mp10 people completely miss out on. I would even go as far as to argue that the demon hunter is the best class for players who understand how silly it is to think highly of either sheet dps or max monster powers, accept what they're good at and play in a fashion that will keep them interested and progressive for more than a month.
I've been holding back from reading all of your posts but after reading this one and also noticing that you said "dousin"
lol.. you walk a circle around Ghom till he throws down acid slimes, buff your sw and foresight then go at ghom... lmao.. is that the best you europeans can do and whats with "the answer from europe" haha.
This LOL
I see what you did there haha, while it may not be considered "cheating" this still should be frowned upon but its still pretty hilarious the lengths EU tries to go to beat US LOL
As you can probably see from the video. Part of making any Class' E-DPS higher is by including skills that do simultaneous DPS while maintaining good enough mitigation to be able to hold your ground in most scenarios.In order to achieve this I used Rain Of Vengeance which is a single cast and I can just let it be and it will do its job, putting down spike traps and in between spike traps stacking Bola shots. The reason other Classes have much higher E-DPS is because:
1) Their Buffs are much better -- I was running Archery, Cull The Weak (Cold Soj+ RoV + Caltrops) , Custom Engineering but those still don't match Tokio and I have discussed this extensively and we have concluded that our buffs are a big part of our problems, our Steady Aim is pretty useless in most situations and usually we lose E-DPS trying to keep ourselves at a distance from monsters so that the buff is active.
2) The skills that other classes have either work off of breakpoints in attack speed and crit chance or just work together very well to do very effective simultaneous DPS thereby boosting their E-DPS (i.e. Sweeping Wind).
3) Because our E-DPS is much lower our survivability is also much lower than say, Tokio's, because he does so much damage extremely fast that 3% life steal is overkill for him and he does not have the 35% mitigation that Gloom gives us DHs. Tokio and I were running at the same level of base EHP, yet even I with perma gloom was unable to coast through as he did (at least in the surviving sense). Point being that, I was running MUCH higher mitigation (because of Gloom of course) than Tokio and MUCH higher life steal% yet HE is able to survive through a lot more because of his huge amount of E-DPS.
Good topic and my DH is indeed not feeling much fun lately as well... but I'll have to move this to the DH forums, where it belongs.
True,
I have had so many friends quit their DHs to go and roll Barbs or CM wizards. I wish blizzard would do something about this to fix this dying class. I have been doing more testing and I also found that my 120m Barb can clear KD2 almost twice as fast as this top 30 dps DH -- If blizzard does not see this as a problem then the DH class is screwed.
I will post a video of my findings when I get some time to make one!
Thanks for the support so far guys, lets get this issue addressed by Blizzard.
-- Here is a thread I made on bnet (1st one got closed by Blizzard for an unknown reason):
With an attempt to put the final nail in the coffin on the argument regarding whether DHs have a good amount of EFFECTIVE dps or not when compared to other classes.
I have been playing around I tried some crazy !@#$ these 2 set ups, so far, seems to be the most optimal but I'm still working out the kinks and am open to suggestions but the point remains. DHs don't have enough E-DPS. I could always be more optimal gear-wise (but at that point who cares equal geared class will still out dps DHs)
http://www.diablofans.com/
these changes are a Joke and they have no idea how badly they just buffed barbs for PvP with that inspiring presence change...
With that change and how OP barbs currently are in PvP just gives light to how CLUELESS blizzard is about their game and community.
Also, the class that can stack WAY more hp gets a higher % buff to their regen from a passive than the class with a lower HP pool?
Really blizzard? really?
-- This patch might just make me quit and I've been playing consistently since Launch --
Also did blizzard sit down and brainstorm "how can we buff mercs" and came up with that waste of text buff on Templar Life Regen??? LOL blizz just LOL
True
Some great points here and thanks for posting, and its good to have an outside-class perspective that is not completely clueless about the class' problems.
With that said, I'd like to add that the main problem with LS% for DHs comes from our weapons.
We simply cannot get a top tier dps weapon with life steal a 1300 dps 2 sock dex manticore cannot roll Life Steal -- Its that simple.
This automatically gimps us and says "you have to run SP to do anything"
While Windforce can roll life steal% it still leaves a huge damage hole, not to mention that our mitigation/survivability given by life steal% for DHs is super low because our effective DPS is super low. If we did a lot more actual TRUE DAMAGE PER SECOND lower life steal% would be required to keep us alive.
The fact that we need 15% life steal AND 35% dmg reduction in order to barely survive means that our damage is waaaay too low as those #s are extremely overpowered if taken at face value.
If you look at the videos I made you will see that even with that large amount of life steal/mitigation given by gloom I still have a chance to die. While TOKIO running with exact same gear with only 3% life steal (or less not exactly sure if his weapon even has 3% I just know he does not run 2 life steal weapons) and exact same BASE EHP (resist, lower HP than my DH because of quiver difference, armor) has no problem surviving what so ever because of his extremely high E-DPS eventhough hes running WAY lower life steal% and WAY lower mitigation (since I am perma gloomed).
I like this wishlist haha. I think that they really need to lower the Cooldown on Fan of Knives and make the base radius the radius of the increased radius rune, hail of knives.
Thanks for the Video TianZi -- I think we will need to show blizzard later on once the PTR updates that the Rapid Fire buff is a Joke... lol
I've been holding back from reading all of your posts but after reading this one and also noticing that you said "dousin"
I have been forced to... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0
This LOL
I see what you did there haha, while it may not be considered "cheating" this still should be frowned upon but its still pretty hilarious the lengths EU tries to go to beat US LOL
1) Their Buffs are much better -- I was running Archery, Cull The Weak (Cold Soj+ RoV + Caltrops) , Custom Engineering but those still don't match
Tokio and I have discussed this extensively and we have concluded that our buffs are a big part of our problems, our Steady Aim is pretty useless in most situations and usually we lose E-DPS trying to keep ourselves at a distance from monsters so that the buff is active.
2) The skills that other classes have either work off of breakpoints in attack speed and crit chance or just work together very well to do very effective simultaneous DPS thereby boosting their E-DPS (i.e. Sweeping Wind).
3) Because our E-DPS is much lower our survivability is also much lower than say, Tokio's, because he does so much damage extremely fast that 3% life steal is overkill for him and he does not have the 35% mitigation that Gloom gives us DHs. Tokio and I were running at the same level of base EHP, yet even I with perma gloom was unable to coast through as he did (at least in the surviving sense). Point being that, I was running MUCH higher mitigation (because of Gloom of course) than Tokio and MUCH higher life steal% yet HE is able to survive through a lot more because of his huge amount of E-DPS.
True,
I have had so many friends quit their DHs to go and roll Barbs or CM wizards. I wish blizzard would do something about this to fix this dying class. I have been doing more testing and I also found that my 120m Barb can clear KD2 almost twice as fast as this top 30 dps DH -- If blizzard does not see this as a problem then the DH class is screwed.
I will post a video of my findings when I get some time to make one!
Thanks for the support so far guys, lets get this issue addressed by Blizzard.
-- Here is a thread I made on bnet (1st one got closed by Blizzard for an unknown reason):
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8568988889
===========================
TheDonAce@D2JSP
http://www.twitch.tv/the_donace
===========================
With an attempt to put the final nail in the coffin on the argument regarding whether DHs have a good amount of EFFECTIVE dps or not when compared to other classes.
-- Here we have myself with Tokio's Gear --
Video: ---> http://www.twitch.tv/the_donace/c/2140237
I have been playing around I tried some crazy !@#$ these 2 set ups, so far, seems to be the most optimal but I'm still working out the kinks and am open to suggestions but the point remains. DHs don't have enough E-DPS. I could always be more optimal gear-wise (but at that point who cares equal geared class will still out dps DHs)
I was running 402k Unbuffed WITH soj.
1st Attempt: 47 secs
2nd Attempt: death lolz
3rd Attempt: 45 secs
Now here is is Tokio (running 362k with an soj) accomplishing this feat in 19 Seconds:
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/91239-hey-guys-tokio-here/
Okay guys, hope this gets some attention and Blizzard takes action sooner rather than later.
===========================
TheDonAce@D2JSP
http://www.twitch.tv/the_donace
===========================
I want to give thanks to Tokio for lending me his gear to demonstrate something I have been wanting to show for quite some time now.
For any one who is interested, here is the Topic here on battle.net regarding the issue of E-DPS for DHs please go to the following page.
Props to TianZi for motivating me to finally do this.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8569108878?page=1#8
Thanks again Tokio,
===========================
TheDonAce@D2JSP
http://www.twitch.tv/the_donace
===========================
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http://forums.d2jsp....&o=0#p448840171
Please feel free to add me with your BID in the message OR put "Question Legacy Set Sale"
if you have a question.
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