"hey this would be awesome, if I actually needed it, but I don't so...well look at that, it's a crappy item in the open market." I don't think we need to muddy that water.
What if the Mystic could add you the pristine bonus? Then what you found could become better if you want and at the moment you ID it you'll see the normal stats without the pristine bonus. This way you won't be disappointed by the real stats when the item is placed at the AH.
The point is to make more balanced the line between self-found items and AH items as OP already explained.
I mean in a way that's what the Mystic will do, we just don't know to what extent. The Mystic comes with a consequence though, which is what others have mentioned. I get a great item but it needs a little fine tuning to work for me. Do I risk making it BoA to get it there or do I put it up on the AH to get some gold and buy the item the already exists with the right stats I am looking for? Choice matters to me and I want my choices to have weight to them. Like you and others have said it's a balance issue. Balance is far easier said than done.
The thing is though, I feel like everyone is overestimating the odds you have at finding a high end item you want.
That's the point a ~20% stat boost will push a mediocre item to a great item but then that great item becomes mediocre again when you go to trade. The items then become vendor trash and the person is left with a feeling of "well I just got screwed". That's how I would feel at least. Right now, when I see that orange beam I get a little "oooooh" feeling. When I Id the item I immediately know it's good or bad, no question. With the Pristine system, it adds an extra layer of "hey this would be awesome, if I actually needed it, but I don't so...well look at that, it's a crappy item in the open market." I don't think we need to muddy that water.
Mutilate: You're right that the AH is nothing but a trading platform, that's no great observation. It caused the game trouble because it's just too big and in effect acts like the npc vendor that you said it isn't. Playing Diablo 3 consists of killing monsters, selling items to that vendor and buying upgrades from him. That's boring and Blizz decided to make changes.
You certainly would think it was a revelation to end all revelations the way people talk about it. I try not to make assumptions about people's understanding and comprehension. I blew some people’s minds this week when I told them the GAH and RMAH are two different things and not just a conversion from one to the other. Not everyone posts on fan forums and stays informed the way, well the way we do.
You say it cause troubles and I say it made it more accessible. Opinions are fun like that. Let's not go trying to insinuate that everyone that plays the game plays the same way. For you and lots of other people playing Diablo 3 has become what you pointed out. That's not true of everyone though. I am not implying you are saying that but I just like to be as transparent as possible with things like this.
All of that being said, I 200% agree that there needs more "self-found" in the game. I think we are heading in that direction right now and I am excited to see where it goes!
Maybe I misunderstood your idea but it sounds like:
Find awesome Skorn, it has awesome bonuses because I found it.
Go to sell/trade the same Skorn and it loses extra attributes and ~20% stats.
Is that right? If so, then the issue is that the item becomes devalued at trade. Sure, that Skorn could still be sold or traded but an items value is inherent to its stats so all of a sudden my BiS item becomes middle of the pack at best. A quick glance at the economy shows middle of the pack stuff is all but useless. I want to have that flexibility to know that if I get a really good item I can use it or get "full market value" for it so I can potentially get something else that I could use. That's all.
Not to beat a dead horse but again the AH does not supply itself and I think it's a tad disingeuine to phrase things in a way that makes it seem like people are just going to the AH and buying items like you would from an in game vendor. Sure people buy items from the AH, but it's a player driven economy and you are in essence trading.
The Mystic seems like a better balance as it gives the players choice. There is a little risk versus reward excitement with it, or at least based on what we know now. The Pristine versus Worn system doesn't give me choice; it takes some away if I am being honest.
I'm not meaning to take a big old dump on your idea, and I hope it's not reading that way. Just offering up my opinions on the matter.
Edit: Shaggy's point is excellent as well and another point that would need to be taken into consideration with a system like this.
@Mutilate24 You are exactly right - everyone will go for that XYZ imba build. In fact if they make loot 2.0 as diverse as possible, we will have countless XYZ imba builds. The problem is that to make such a build yourself, you'll have to farm with years (or your bot for those who runs such) to get those build improving properties you want. So the most devoted players will have the strongest builds and OP idea adds to this too.
If anything the OP's suggestion exacerbates the issue. Diablo is a loot game with a heavy trading component. It's not reasonable to assume you will get everything you want (the key is want here) by yourself. The AH, regardless of its less than stellar implementation, offers players a nice and tidy point of access to trading. Take it away and the trading will continue, and probably move "offline" as it did in Diablo 2. Suggestions like the OPs are a strike against the AH/RMAH, simple as that. The trading component needs to be there and needs to be done in a way where Blizzard can keep it contained. I know I don't have the desire, or time to "farm for years" but I still enjoy the item hunt anyway. I certainly don't want to be pigeonholed if I do find something really nice, but not specifically nice for me.
Another solution to the problem you said might be to implement an affix that does what the OP suggested.
An additional affix that can roll on rare / legendary items that improves all other affix stats by X%, but when the items is traded that affix disappears.
You end up with the same issue. I trade or just flat out give away a lot of stuff to friends and it would suck to know that my awesome item is going to take an arbitrary stat hit because I personally am not using it anymore. That's not fun or beneficial to the game in anyway. Again, opinions.
My main issue with this approach is that lots of items are going to end up being vendor trash with a system like this. Let's say you are farming on a main that is able to easily farm mid to high MP. You get an awesome Skorn (or whatever) drop but it's not an upgrade or side grade for you. In the current game you have options now, flip that item on the AH to make some gold which may then allow you to buy another item that would be an upgrade (people seem to forget that the AH does not supply itself and selling an item for gold and then buying another item is the same thing as trading an item for another item. How many minds did I just blow right there, be honest?). Or you could give it to a friend who would benefit from that item. With your system that awesome Skorn will probably end up being completely devalued once it leaves your possession.
It's a cool idea, but I think it's shortsighted and unfortunately comes across with a "me me me" attitude. Opinions and all of that, right?
If you really want to take this to the next level you need to add some sort of UI element that toggles between the Pristine and Worn variations. My suggestion would be to allow the item to be traded at no consequence but have the "downgrade" triggered by posting on the AH. That's really the goal here, right? To push people away from that mean spirited AH?
The reason I made an account is that I really liked the OP idea (once again clapping for it).
I am on the side of whats best for D3 and the RMAH is a parasite for D3. Just as the bots are. They can kill both with one patch, you name it.
And loot 2.0 will be a failure as long as they don't realize that you don't have to balance Diablo - its not an RTS. You should have weaker and stronger builds, thats the whole point of it and thats what Jay Wilson never managed to understand. But for these builds to become stronger, you don't need to pick the right skills, you need to have the right items. Items which have build improving properties. And from the gamescom screens I didn't saw such, so I am really skeptical about loot 2.0.
You do need to balance. We live in an age of information overload and paralysis of analysis where unless you are min/maxing you are "doing it wrong". As soon as X become more useful and or efficient than Y the game devolves into everyone is doing Y or feeling that they "have" to do Y. The idea of balance is so that ABC and XYZ all have reasonable deltas (which is also a joke now since the tolerance in the community is appalling).
Also I don't honestly get how people can throw in the towel on loot 2.0 based on the small and mostly anecdotal evidence presented thus far. I get that it's easier, or the "cool thing" to be all doom and gloom on Blizzard but, I don't know, maybe wait and once more data is available come to a conclusion? No? Ok, your call.
Without trying to derail this into a Followers thread but that is an excellent point. Some of the fun procs on Legendaries could be amazing in the hands of Followers. As an aside I actually had a similar conversation at lunch yesterday with some friends about this. It is/was a disappointment that they scaled down Follower management in D3. I don't think there are any plans to expand on it in RoS though.
Firstly, I think discussing new LEgs and followers is well on point. Changing the build of our followers can seriously impact the build of our solo farming chars if done right.
Josh's battle cry at Gamscom was "We want the game to be as fun as possible to play". Followers can be fun. Just look at the difference a Buriza can make on the scoundrel, or a Tormentor staff on the enchantress, which spams charm CC when combined with her charm skill.
Completely agree. I would love to see some more fun follower items than what we currently have. Honestly I don't get the resistence to Legendary follower items or even Legendary sets. I can take some educated guesses why...
Well I hope it turns out I'm wrong and Loot 2.0 is the best thing ever. I just won't get my hopes up so they don't get crushed; if you don't expect anything, you will never be disappointed, smart way to live imo
"The first step to failure is trying" ~ Homer Simpson
In D2, our mercs were often our pride and joy. I remember my Act 2 Merc positively slamming countless PK'ers trying to WP trap me. With his Efort, Eth Death CV and Eth Dream Helm, he would lay ruin to them before I could even get a hit in.
The enchantress cannot wield 1 handers, nor can the scoundrel. This needs to be changed. It would be a huge step forward if your follower could wield this wand and spam her hydras about.
I've also been assuming they'd dev some interesting Legendary follower tokens and perhaps add a slot or two, like armor and/or helmet.
I remember when it was announced many years ago that mercs/followers in D3 would be able to wear jewelry, I thought "AWESOME".
What a fucking disappointment it was to learn that they cut out armor and helmets and allowed jewelry in their place. It was a kick in the balls imo.
Another evolution I'd like to see would be allowing one party member to bring a follower, open things up a bit and sprinkle some follower fun on this game.
Without trying to derail this into a Followers thread but that is an excellent point. Some of the fun procs on Legendaries could be amazing in the hands of Followers. As an aside I actually had a similar conversation at lunch yesterday with some friends about this. It is/was a disappointment that they scaled down Follower management in D3. I don't think there are any plans to expand on it in RoS though.
I must have missed the part where "Build Changer" became synonymous with a single (probably not fully developed) item presented in an unveiling announcement. I just assumed it and the other example given, were glimpses into the shift in design philosophy. I guess I should go ahead and cast judgment now regardless of the fact that I have a very small amount of information to base my opinion on. That's how we do it on the internets right?
TLDR; maybe wait till we know a little more before calling the whole thing a wash.
Edit: Yes I am aware the discussion is specifically about the Spirit Walker. As has been stated the info we have is still limited and we don't know exactly how it will work when RoS goes live.
Am I missing something, or aren't the people with the best lvl 60 gear going to be in the best position to farm/sell level 70 stuff like mad while the demand is especially high?
They will mostly be selling it amongst themselves for ridiculous prices until things stabilize. There are more checks and balances in Loot 2.0 + Mystic than we had in Vanilla D3 so it ends up being a race amongst the top "1%" to see who can flip between themselves the fastest. The rest of the player base will eventually catch up but it's way too early to tell how the market will play out. If Loot 2.0 holds its promise of a smoother and more/better self-found loot experience the AH will plateau pretty reasonably.
The only thing I did buy is a Cain's set with strength. I only spent about 4 million on it. That way I will have something to level my new Crusader as quickly as possible. I can see the prices of those going up substantially at launch. Or maybe I'm just being captain antsy pants...
I said it in a different thread but the only thing I am holding for my Crusader is a STR HFR. The rest is going to come self found loot 2.0. Maybe I am crazy but I think that it's going to be a rewarding experience.
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I mean in a way that's what the Mystic will do, we just don't know to what extent. The Mystic comes with a consequence though, which is what others have mentioned. I get a great item but it needs a little fine tuning to work for me. Do I risk making it BoA to get it there or do I put it up on the AH to get some gold and buy the item the already exists with the right stats I am looking for? Choice matters to me and I want my choices to have weight to them. Like you and others have said it's a balance issue. Balance is far easier said than done.
That's the point a ~20% stat boost will push a mediocre item to a great item but then that great item becomes mediocre again when you go to trade. The items then become vendor trash and the person is left with a feeling of "well I just got screwed". That's how I would feel at least. Right now, when I see that orange beam I get a little "oooooh" feeling. When I Id the item I immediately know it's good or bad, no question. With the Pristine system, it adds an extra layer of "hey this would be awesome, if I actually needed it, but I don't so...well look at that, it's a crappy item in the open market." I don't think we need to muddy that water.
You certainly would think it was a revelation to end all revelations the way people talk about it. I try not to make assumptions about people's understanding and comprehension. I blew some people’s minds this week when I told them the GAH and RMAH are two different things and not just a conversion from one to the other. Not everyone posts on fan forums and stays informed the way, well the way we do.
You say it cause troubles and I say it made it more accessible. Opinions are fun like that. Let's not go trying to insinuate that everyone that plays the game plays the same way. For you and lots of other people playing Diablo 3 has become what you pointed out. That's not true of everyone though. I am not implying you are saying that but I just like to be as transparent as possible with things like this.
All of that being said, I 200% agree that there needs more "self-found" in the game. I think we are heading in that direction right now and I am excited to see where it goes!
Find awesome Skorn, it has awesome bonuses because I found it.
Go to sell/trade the same Skorn and it loses extra attributes and ~20% stats.
Is that right? If so, then the issue is that the item becomes devalued at trade. Sure, that Skorn could still be sold or traded but an items value is inherent to its stats so all of a sudden my BiS item becomes middle of the pack at best. A quick glance at the economy shows middle of the pack stuff is all but useless. I want to have that flexibility to know that if I get a really good item I can use it or get "full market value" for it so I can potentially get something else that I could use. That's all.
Not to beat a dead horse but again the AH does not supply itself and I think it's a tad disingeuine to phrase things in a way that makes it seem like people are just going to the AH and buying items like you would from an in game vendor. Sure people buy items from the AH, but it's a player driven economy and you are in essence trading.
The Mystic seems like a better balance as it gives the players choice. There is a little risk versus reward excitement with it, or at least based on what we know now. The Pristine versus Worn system doesn't give me choice; it takes some away if I am being honest.
I'm not meaning to take a big old dump on your idea, and I hope it's not reading that way. Just offering up my opinions on the matter.
Edit: Shaggy's point is excellent as well and another point that would need to be taken into consideration with a system like this.
You end up with the same issue. I trade or just flat out give away a lot of stuff to friends and it would suck to know that my awesome item is going to take an arbitrary stat hit because I personally am not using it anymore. That's not fun or beneficial to the game in anyway. Again, opinions.
It's a cool idea, but I think it's shortsighted and unfortunately comes across with a "me me me" attitude. Opinions and all of that, right?
If you really want to take this to the next level you need to add some sort of UI element that toggles between the Pristine and Worn variations. My suggestion would be to allow the item to be traded at no consequence but have the "downgrade" triggered by posting on the AH. That's really the goal here, right? To push people away from that mean spirited AH?
You do need to balance. We live in an age of information overload and paralysis of analysis where unless you are min/maxing you are "doing it wrong". As soon as X become more useful and or efficient than Y the game devolves into everyone is doing Y or feeling that they "have" to do Y. The idea of balance is so that ABC and XYZ all have reasonable deltas (which is also a joke now since the tolerance in the community is appalling).
Also I don't honestly get how people can throw in the towel on loot 2.0 based on the small and mostly anecdotal evidence presented thus far. I get that it's easier, or the "cool thing" to be all doom and gloom on Blizzard but, I don't know, maybe wait and once more data is available come to a conclusion? No? Ok, your call.
Completely agree. I would love to see some more fun follower items than what we currently have. Honestly I don't get the resistence to Legendary follower items or even Legendary sets. I can take some educated guesses why...
"Do or do not, there is no try" ~ Yoda
Without trying to derail this into a Followers thread but that is an excellent point. Some of the fun procs on Legendaries could be amazing in the hands of Followers. As an aside I actually had a similar conversation at lunch yesterday with some friends about this. It is/was a disappointment that they scaled down Follower management in D3. I don't think there are any plans to expand on it in RoS though.
TLDR; maybe wait till we know a little more before calling the whole thing a wash.
Edit: Yes I am aware the discussion is specifically about the Spirit Walker. As has been stated the info we have is still limited and we don't know exactly how it will work when RoS goes live.
They will mostly be selling it amongst themselves for ridiculous prices until things stabilize. There are more checks and balances in Loot 2.0 + Mystic than we had in Vanilla D3 so it ends up being a race amongst the top "1%" to see who can flip between themselves the fastest. The rest of the player base will eventually catch up but it's way too early to tell how the market will play out. If Loot 2.0 holds its promise of a smoother and more/better self-found loot experience the AH will plateau pretty reasonably.
I said it in a different thread but the only thing I am holding for my Crusader is a STR HFR. The rest is going to come self found loot 2.0. Maybe I am crazy but I think that it's going to be a rewarding experience.