DiabloFans

Quote from Kinmaul

I'm assuming you didn't get a chance to try Twister in the beta because that's not how the skill works at all. You only get the tooltip damage if the twister is on top of a mob for the ENTIRE duration. Mobs are always heading towards you and twisters are always moving away, couple that with the random movement and the skill is horrible. If you are lucky enough that the twister actually makes contact with the mob it passes over it only dealing 1-2 ticks of damage, so you get a small fraction of the actual damage.

In your scenario I'd rather blow through my AP with something like Arcane Orb which will deal SIGNIFICANTLY more damage than Energy Twister before falling back on a signature skill. I'm not trying to be an ass, and I'm not trying to say I'm better/smarter than you. I love the idea of Energy Twister and the skill looks absolutely amazing. I really wanted it to be good and tried using it in multiple scenarios to see if I could find a situation where it would be effective. Every single time it failed. It just sucks man, sorry.

All my text-wall aside - I agree that currently Energy Twiser suxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx!!

It's only really good in a very very densly packed room with a greater area of population than something like Arcane Orb can reach .. which doesn't happen very often... YET >

Nothing in the world of blizzard is purely mathematical and even the portions that are can be more complex than they seem.

Here's a hypothetical:

You have 1 skill that does 101 damage every second.

You have another skill that does 50 damage every 0.5 seconds.

Mathematically speaking the throughput favors the first skill but what happens when you approach a mob that has 102-150 hp? The second skill is going to kill the mob faster (2 seconds with the first skill vs. 1.5 with the latter), allowing you to move to your next target. Situations like these arise all the time... the first skill (while having greater throughput) is going to have to wait a whole extra second just to waste a ton of it's damage on overkill. This is just a very basic illustration of the concept that mathematically "optimal" builds don't necessarily net you the greatest killing power.

This doesn't even factor in indirect DPS enhancements such as Run/Walk speed boosters (faster moving to next target = more time spent attacking and less time walking) which only makes an already complex system even more difficult to comprehend.

Sure, anyone can argue that an optimal build should be based around maximum dps throughput on a sustained damage effort but ultimately number crunching for a "Patchwerk" style fight is faulty when you rarely encounter such content. (Go Go WoW Reference!)

Anyone who thinks they can crunch this game down to pure calculation is a fool at best. There's way too many randomized skills (of mobs), effects, and combinations of player skills (and passives) than are possible to accurately quantify using only a calculator.

If someone was going to base their entire build around math targeted at producing maximum dps output then everyone would have 1 active skill and 5 Dots/Passive damage enhancement skills. In almost every case DoT's have the highest DPTI and DPE (Damage Per Time Invested and Damage Per Execution). That being the case you would want to load up all your dots, keep them rolling with minimal downtime, and spam your active skill in between.... but how many people are doing that?


The whole math thing works great in WoW because the HP, skills, and effects of enemies are known prior to the encounter.... Diablo's Randomization prevents such knowledge making math-based preparation substantially less accurate.

Anyone remember how hard heroic Faction Champs was until you seriously outgeared it?

TLDR;

Yes math is great. Math will help you succeed in all things blizzard.

Yes I theory craft (and have been for a long time). Yes I enjoy it and will continue to do so.

No I don't believe sheer number crunching will always wield you the greatest results.

Do what feels best and what you enjoy the most.

If the targeting AI of the mobs is similar to that of D2 - while you can't effectively control aggro tables (because there's no "threat" mechanic) you can still provide a primary target. D2 mobs typically attacked whatever target they "saw" first for at least a short period of time. If the same holds true a well geared "tank" could potentially soak up a good chunk of damage while allowing teammates to lay the smack down before the baddies wise-up.

There is also somewhat of a taunt mechanic for barbs.. can't think of ones for any other classes atm... but I think that illustrates the point that there can at least be a character that helps focus mob fire to one place (if that's even a good idea).

There were some traps:

I remember in the Cathedral there was a rare room segment that had a Resplendant Chest inside that when first used would drop into the floor and unleash a room full of monsters....

I had a French Canadian girlfriend when I lived in Spain.... having to sit around and listen to 3 of you at once will never happen. Ever...

That being said - I'm sure I'll be seeing you all in Hell.

Quote from KageKaze

Pretty much Barbarian due to Grim Harvest

Of course, if using that gets in the way of killing in later acts, could be proven wrong. I'm doubtful though

Good point with Grim Harvest...

But ultimately - whoever can kill the fastest with the highest MF..... DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

While I'm thinking about it - it really seems like people tend to neglect the portions of a skill's features that are anything other than purely mathematical.

Positioning, timing, secondary effects - all very hard to quantify... also all vital to proper use... and all potentially the reason a skill is considered so powerful or so weak in the first place. Crunching numbers is pretty easy.. learning how to value these other effects ... not so much.

You really have to consider that even if almost every facet of 2 comparable skills are the same, it's whichever part that is different that will determine the skill's niche.

In the example above:

Quote from Ruppgu

Quote from Tsukishima

Blizzard damage is pretty fixed. Energy twister is random. It is fully possible to do more damage on twister than blizzard. Twister also stacks and is spammable, Blizzard can't stack.

I would say these 2 skills have different niches.

Good point on blizzard.

What about Meteor - Star Pact vs Energy Twister - Wicked Wind.

* Both cost 35AP
* From the videos I've seen, Meteor has a bigger range
* Wicked Wind does 252% over 6 seconds
* Meteor does 260% damage over 3 seconds (not to mention that 200% of it is instant)

So... Energy Twister - Wicked Wind is useless.

I'm specifically referring to the Energy Twiser - Wicked Wind vs Meteor comparison:

Even with AP Cost being the same, and Energy Twister having lesser damage with a smaller range, that "over 6 seconds" really changes the way you can use the skill. Say for instance you know that monsters are going to be funneling down a hallway for a while... you can drop ET - WW in front of them and focus on something else for a minute. When overgearing comes into play, the effect of a lower damage but longer lasting positional DOT becomes amplified if it still produces enough damage to kill most (or all) of the mobs it's being set against.

This example is a bit mediocre but I think most people get the idea - understanding how a single difference between 2 skills seperates their uses is going to be key in deciding which skills to use in the first place.

Passives could also potentially be a major game-changer when it comes to skill selected....

I just converted my female into a follower - now she's as anxious for May 15th as I am...

I then systematically muscled her out - the digital download is mine off the bat.. when the CE arrives in the mail later that day - it's mine too. She'll have to wait until I get the key from converting my account to CE before she can play :D.

.... all I had to do was book a trip to Vegas on the following week for her birthday.... (Oh noes! :D)

It's WIN - WIN!

Sometimes I'm thankful I was raised in a house full of manipulative women... I learned from the best

I think it's fair to say that someone will have it beaten within 2 weeks - whether by their own means, through the use of a well coordinated group, or by some exploit...

I don't think the masses (I don't mean the majority of players so much as the bulk of "hardcore" gamers) will beat hell (and Inferno for that matter) for 3 weeks or greater... and I wouldnt be suprised if it took even longer.

Everyone talks about how quickly they beat D2 but most of those individuals are failing to consider how difficult D2 actually is if you try to solo it without overpowered hand-me-down gear, group assistance, and prior experience in the content (ie knowing how to approach encounters - this is something I haven't noticed many people even considering and it's probably the most important).

I realize I'm beating a dead-horse here but we just don't really know enough about the content to make any accurate guesses as to how quickly it can be conquered.

I don't have any screenshots of my achievements from the beta....

I've overachieved and betamaxed every patch since I got i (at patch 12) right up until this latest one....

As much as I love the number 13, I had no desire to see it again this patch - I'm ready for the real game!

Quote from Benegesserit

Do a little google searching since you've already seen the consensus here is that you can. There was a blue post about it a long time ago.

You can absolutely start playing with your free version at midnight, wait for delivery/pick-up anytime after, add the key to your account, and then your standard basically goes away, gets replaced by the CE (all of your characters and data will remain, with the CE items showing up when you first log in...most likely in your stash), and then your next re-up payment for WoW will show $0.00 until $60 worth of time has passed.

Quote from Glitterpony

I'm still more concerned about what happens with the first key....

Bash had stated something to the effect of "contact customer service and we'll give you a replacement key...."

Anyone heard any further clarification on that?

This is specifically for those who DON'T have the annual pass, and, for example, buy the digital version now and pick up the CE later (so they can start at 12:01). He mentioned that you should get a key but if you didn't then contact customer service and they'll give you one that you can hand out to someone (or sell, *shrug*).

Yeah, my only real concern was that customer service is probably going to be virtually impossible to get a hold of right after release... I'll be asking blizzard when my replacement key is coming and I can see the response now....

"SOON"

I'm still more concerned about what happens with the first key....

Bash had stated something to the effect of "contact customer service and we'll give you a replacement key...."

Anyone heard any further clarification on that?

What's the average age-group of your current members (and the target age of recruits)?

Paprika


The GF convinced me to sit down and watch this - I'm still not entirely sure how I'd rate it because I'm still pondering wtf went on in the movie. It's probably something you should never watch while "expanding your mind" if you catch my drift... your head might explode.

Also, I'm now afraid of china dolls.

It was good I guess - I don't feel like I just lost 2 hours I'll never get back!