VoA is definitely the way to go. If you're wondering if you should go Barb or TR Monk to farm DEs, I would say they're actually a lot more on par than people think. Barb definitely requires a LOT more work and management, but the upper limit of the two is quite even. A lot of people believe that because Tangos is the only person to break 50 DE/hr solo that TR is inherently faster. Taking aside the fact that it was also a lucky run (averaged 8.7 elites/hr) Tangos had arguably the BEST possible TR setup in the world (~260k dps with 1.18 APS and 1.1M EHP and 4 piece innas). I can get almost within 10% of that and I'm like the 300th or 400th ranked barb at 300k unbuffed. I calculated that a barb with 420k unbuffed it would be theoretically possible to run MP7 on 3 min avg and tie/beat his record.
Just wanted to share the end results of my last challenge. Over the last few days I tried to see what the minimum budget I could get away with for solo MP10 ubers.
Its a really fun challenge and I urge those with some spare gold lying around to give it a try. Definitely the most rewarding D3 experience I've had in a while.
I just wanted to say your new version of the build is amazing. Definitely a very optimized build. What are your thought on if you ever manage to break 200-220k ish DPS and can drop overawe? Circular breathing? Way of the Falling Star? I'm sure some of my ubergeared TR friends are going to ask me this.
BTW do you mind if I post a link to you video on Reddit. I really think its something that should be shared.
I think to run AC2 comfortably you need to hit the 1.18 breakpoint. KD2 is a bit more flexible since the density of mobs is higher. 1.09 is possible but it will be a bit rough at the start. I run at 1.18 for all my elite skipping setups.
If you want to make your start very easy you can do what I did in the video. Buy a cheap high LoH and LS (didn't have it in the video but its better than socket) bul kathos solemn vow and switch it in and out.
Yes rend only procs into the fray on the first cast. What I do now is try to guess how much fury I will generate depending on how many mobs are around me. Depending on that, I either use battle rage and sprint or just sprint before hitting rend.
Probably the most important thing in knowing is your crit brawler and and non brawler values. I know that I hit for 3M and stygian crawlers have a max HP of around 3.05M on MP10. So I know that I can just rend and run and they are guaranteed to die if I procced Brawler since they'll likely hit a tornado or two. You should normally run at an MP where your crit brawler rend will hit for 80%+ of the mobs hp so you can just rend and run and think of WW as merely a pathing tool.
I've done two other 10 minute samples similar to the way this one structured now, the first was 202 and the second was 196.
If you have any tips on improving these numbers please let me know, although I'm most likely not going to invest in a Nat Set or Lamentation to get the extra max 3% crit chance. I've mainly been doing KD2 for loot so my gear setup is more optimized for that route (more melee reduction than ranged), but I decided to do some XP runs for fun last weekend.
If you're a barb I recommend going at the MP where you can 1 crit rend trash mobs and run crater 2. I've recently been able to hit the 2.9M range with brawler which lets me kill stygian crawlers on MP10. The net result is 200M XP/Hr. With proper gearing hitting MP9 is very easy to reach.
Wizard can do the same thing but with blizzard. The scaling on it isn't going to be as great though.
Barb is less cost efficient at low MP; however it's probably the most flexible in its choice of MP. You can switch around skills and playstyle with little adjustments in gearing to handle higher MPs. The WD setup shown in the video scales horribly on higher MP.
The one counterargument that some people have against barb is that it has a tendency to be less engaging versus other classes. I've played barb as my main, got really well geared and then ended up selling my gear since it got boring. Nowadays I just play around with all the classes with low budget builds.
It's a pretty long read and by now most people probably know these properties, but it may be useful for newer players and theorycrafters.
Tl;dr. Random affixes can only roll 1 specific resistance and 1 double stat roll. The probability of rolling a specific affix type is proportional to the total affix levels within an affix type and inversely proportional to the total affixes available to be rolled for a slot piece. Affix rolls occur as independent events with the exception of the exclusive resistance and double state rolls. ilvl of the item, while not affecting the range of possible affix levels rolled on an item determines the probability of each affix level being rolled. Within an affix level the distribution of rolls is even.
I'm not sure what you consider to be good XP/hr for barb but doing KD2 I manage 160M/hr over a 30 min test including load times as demonstrated by this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tvrs0F1P47Y
TL DR: I’m making a universal loot farming calculator that can answer the questions: what’s the best MP to farm for items, what’s the best route to farm for items and should you be opening chests to improve your farming efficiency? I’m coming to Reddit to get help collecting farming data from reliable individuals to create a model for this. PM me if you’re interested in helping out.
Hey guys,
You may have seen my reddit post the other day about this, but now I’m coming to you guys here at Diablofans to ask for help in collecting data so that we can produce a universal tool that can help us determine farming efficiency in terms of MFing. As many of you have figured out, farming at lower MPs with fast efficient builds is the best way to paragon level; however, since we have no correlate of XP/hr for loot-worthy items/hr, there is no concrete evidence that lower MPs are also the best for that task.
Moldran has recently done a 12 hour farming competition between him, Avoid and Invis to shed some light on the issue. Moldran was farming MP5 whereas the other two farmed MP 10. The only variable that they were counting was legendary drops. From the data I ran some simple statistical analysis to determine the effectiveness of such a measure.
The final results were Moldran: 44, Avoid 34 and Invis 45, which makes it seem like Moldran and Invis were much more efficient than Avoid; however, the t-tests when dividing the data up into Legendaries/hr only gave p-values of 0.22 and 0.19 respectively. When comparing Moldran and Invis against each other, the p-value jumped to 0.91. In post-analysis I went and tried to estimate the necessary N needed to obtain a p-value of 0.05 with a power of 0.8 using the pooled variance. For Moldran v Invis, they’d need 20 000+ hrs of farming data; for Invis v Avoid they’d need 167 hrs.
From this example it becomes clear that although theoretically Legendaries/hr is a good measurement for farming efficiency due to its linear scaling with MF and items/hr, it’s not very practical for answering questions and optimizing our runs.
The model that I’m planning on creating is one where certain rare drops are used as predictors for Legendaries/hr to decrease the RNG using the law of large numbers. By that I mean, if we knew the ratio of rare 58+ gloves to legendaries was 4:1, when a farming run turns up with 8 gloves/hr its equivalent to 2 legendaries/hr which gives a secondary measurement of legendaries/hr. With more estimates the RNG induced variability is reduced. I’m also considering adding additional weight to rares based on their expected population variance.
Those of you familiar with the nuances of how magic find mechanics work in the game (posted by the wonderful group here at Diablofans) are probably aware that these ratios are dependent on the MF of the player. Their research has shown that the quantity of rare drops has diminishing returns with magic find due to the sequential roll theory, whereas legendaries have a (as far as we know) direct correlation.
Over the past 2 weeks I (and other trusted individuals) have collected some preliminary empirical data from our farming runs, only keeping track of our 58+ gloves, amulets, rings and legendaries. Using our pitifully small sample size of 100 legendaries collected I decided to just split the results into MF of 400-575 and MF of 189-400 for now. What I found is that the ratio of gloves rings and amulets to legendaries for the 400+ group was 3.47, 1.89 and 1.04 respectively; for the 400- MF group it was 4.26, 2.35 and 1.17. This amounts to a reduction of 18.6%, 19.3% and 11% in the three groups demonstrating that indeed the ratio of rares:legendaries will decrease with increasing MF (p of 0.003 by ANOVA).
Now that I’m confident that the empirical data matches the theoretical MF analysis, I’m planning on opening up this project for others to help in the data collection. What I hope to do is be able to determine a formula to calculate the ratio that incorporates the user’s MF. At the moment I’m unsure whether MP bonus drops will have a measureable effect on this ratio, so I’m going to be playing safe and collected that tid bit of data in case I have run a regression analysis for that.
So what data will I be collecting? Stuff that people normally are picking up: 58+ gloves, 58+ rings, 58+ amulets, 61 1-handers, 62 1-handers, 63 1-handers (all excluding 1 handed xbows), 63 shoulders, 63 pants, 58+ bracers meaning you would generate 10 estimates of Leg/hr. Once I’m happy with the reliability of the model I’ll release a beta version for the public to try out. This will provide a method for people to figure out which MP they should be farming items on, the theorycrafters out there to determine the best routes for farming items as well as a way to measure our epeen against others.
If you are interested in helping me collect data, please send me a pm or a twitch pm at chazhangarang (I prefer this since the Twitch banner is a much more innocuous looking email to open at work). To avoid trolls messing up the data, I’m going to be restricting the data submission to “reliable” people that I feel like I can trust based off of their post history or history in Diablo in general. I could really use some data from the top high MP farmers that browse these forums.
The offline sheet can be found here (note that run times should be measured in min using decimals). I'll make an update when the online form will open up this weekend. Again, pm me here or preferably via twitch and I'll try to get to you as soon as possible. You should also add in notes for your runs and save your data so that in the future when I release the calculator you can have data ready to input. Here's a FAQ for the sheet:
Is there a specific route to run? The only rule is that it must be MP0 Act 3 and above to maintain the same ilvl drop ratios. Any route is acceptable as long as it gets 5 NV stacks.
What MF should I put in? You should enter your base MF. Pretty much the MF that would show up in your details panel on MP0 with 0 NV stacks.
How should I deal with 5 NV stacks affecting my MF? There are 2 options. 1. Time yourself for 3 runs to determine your run length and time to obtain 5 stacks and enter that data into the chart. This data can be reused if your runtime doesn't change. 2. Record your drops pre 5 NV and post 5 NV and submit it as 2 different data sets. The first set with a run time of 1 and 5 NV time of 1 and the 2nd as a run time of 1 and 5 NV time of 0.
How should I group the data? Data should be grouped based on the MP that you ran, the specific route you ran and your MF. For MF there's a bit of wiggle room of up to 6% to account for your paragon level gains. ie. If you did an Alk run at MP0 and MP 5 they would be different sets. If you tried a full Act 3 clear and Alk run at MP0, they would be different sets (unless you're using the 2nd method of dealing with 5 NV listed above). If you were doing an Alk run on MP1 continuously from Paragon lvl 50-52 and went from 280 to 286% mf you can feel free to lump those together. Once you get to paragon lvl 53 you would make a new data set. I'm going to be opening up a google doc submission once or twice a week, so you can lump all of your data together using the above rules until the submission time.
Whats the minimum data set size? I'm going to be limiting data sets to be 2 or more legendaries. Although I realize this will make it so that people with 100 or less MF will unlikely be able to submit data (which also means the tool won't be useful for predicting results in that range), the tool is meant to be used to increase MFing efficiency. If you have less than 100 MF then the solution would be to get more MF rather than use this tool.
Do I have to loot everything listed?
Ideally yes. The more loot people are collecting the more accurate the resulting data model will be. If it really is a game breaker for participating, then you can just loot what you normally loot and write down a comment indicating what you item slots you didn't loot.
Thanks for putting up with my ramblings in this convoluted post!
Hey guys, I'm Chazhang (or Chaz as everyone in CDX's stream calls me; not the same Chaz that plays with Kripp). I mainly help with theorycrafting on the stream and ran all the calculations to figure out CDX's optimal skills and skill rotations to go for the record.
@Invis
I've been theorycrafting a bit over the weekend to figure out true DPS estimates of the various classes (including using your Azmodan kill as an estimate) to figure out an optimal combination to get some pretty ridiculous DPS outputs to compete with your already impressive record. Already in the process of writing out a thorough primer for skills, skill rotations and positioning for the people involved. I personally don't really want to get into the whole WR running due to time limitations (CD's previous post shows the potential time sink) but I think I may have to play a larger role for this next challenge.
Unfortunately, I really think SK Magda will end up being a horrible comparison tool due to the unreliability of Magda's shielding mechanic that will differentiate us in the end. Sometimes it takes up to 10 sec for her to shield when left undisturbed which is really troubling given the estimated times I'm looking at. Hopefully both our teams will get lucky with her shields in the near future!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JqfJxs1qN0
Its a really fun challenge and I urge those with some spare gold lying around to give it a try. Definitely the most rewarding D3 experience I've had in a while.
Not the 170M or 200M that Monks and Barbs can hit, but its something.
As for how to build it I have a 20M guide found here: http://www.reddit.co...farming_wizard/
from a month ago.
A lot of people thought 20M was already a bit steep so I never scaled it up.
BTW do you mind if I post a link to you video on Reddit. I really think its something that should be shared.
Barb:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPBqCzYbfAc
Wizard:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3ddK-_XacE (Didn't have the gear for MP10 so I did MP9 instead)
I believe TianZi has a video of him hitting 150M/hr with Monk on the monk forums.
Unfortunately I can't really find a way for WD and DH to compete with these numbers.
If you want to make your start very easy you can do what I did in the video. Buy a cheap high LoH and LS (didn't have it in the video but its better than socket) bul kathos solemn vow and switch it in and out.
Yes rend only procs into the fray on the first cast. What I do now is try to guess how much fury I will generate depending on how many mobs are around me. Depending on that, I either use battle rage and sprint or just sprint before hitting rend.
Probably the most important thing in knowing is your crit brawler and and non brawler values. I know that I hit for 3M and stygian crawlers have a max HP of around 3.05M on MP10. So I know that I can just rend and run and they are guaranteed to die if I procced Brawler since they'll likely hit a tornado or two. You should normally run at an MP where your crit brawler rend will hit for 80%+ of the mobs hp so you can just rend and run and think of WW as merely a pathing tool.
Good luck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPBqCzYbfAc
Original thread found here: http://redd.it/19oxs5
Gear I was wearing at the time: http://d3up.com/b/390588/
I've done two other 10 minute samples similar to the way this one structured now, the first was 202 and the second was 196.
If you have any tips on improving these numbers please let me know, although I'm most likely not going to invest in a Nat Set or Lamentation to get the extra max 3% crit chance. I've mainly been doing KD2 for loot so my gear setup is more optimized for that route (more melee reduction than ranged), but I decided to do some XP runs for fun last weekend.
Wizard can do the same thing but with blizzard. The scaling on it isn't going to be as great though.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0gMgiAJ3WsmN3lJWVFfVnJlVTQ/edit?usp=sharing
Some of the data is a bit out of date since these were tested back in 1.0.6 and the first PTR iteration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jyjiMGFT3g
Barb is less cost efficient at low MP; however it's probably the most flexible in its choice of MP. You can switch around skills and playstyle with little adjustments in gearing to handle higher MPs. The WD setup shown in the video scales horribly on higher MP.
The one counterargument that some people have against barb is that it has a tendency to be less engaging versus other classes. I've played barb as my main, got really well geared and then ended up selling my gear since it got boring. Nowadays I just play around with all the classes with low budget builds.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0gMgiAJ3WsmN3lJWVFfVnJlVTQ/edit?usp=sharing
It's a pretty long read and by now most people probably know these properties, but it may be useful for newer players and theorycrafters.
Tl;dr. Random affixes can only roll 1 specific resistance and 1 double stat roll. The probability of rolling a specific affix type is proportional to the total affix levels within an affix type and inversely proportional to the total affixes available to be rolled for a slot piece. Affix rolls occur as independent events with the exception of the exclusive resistance and double state rolls. ilvl of the item, while not affecting the range of possible affix levels rolled on an item determines the probability of each affix level being rolled. Within an affix level the distribution of rolls is even.
I'm not sure what you consider to be good XP/hr for barb but doing KD2 I manage 160M/hr over a 30 min test including load times as demonstrated by this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tvrs0F1P47Y
The best I could get with a killing elite build was 140M/hr over a 30 min test as demonstrated by this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybHXO4ug3H0
Doing the same with Wizard netted me 110M/hr for KD2 versus 100M/hr killing elites using blizzard specs.
Hey guys,
You may have seen my reddit post the other day about this, but now I’m coming to you guys here at Diablofans to ask for help in collecting data so that we can produce a universal tool that can help us determine farming efficiency in terms of MFing. As many of you have figured out, farming at lower MPs with fast efficient builds is the best way to paragon level; however, since we have no correlate of XP/hr for loot-worthy items/hr, there is no concrete evidence that lower MPs are also the best for that task.
Moldran has recently done a 12 hour farming competition between him, Avoid and Invis to shed some light on the issue. Moldran was farming MP5 whereas the other two farmed MP 10. The only variable that they were counting was legendary drops. From the data I ran some simple statistical analysis to determine the effectiveness of such a measure.
The final results were Moldran: 44, Avoid 34 and Invis 45, which makes it seem like Moldran and Invis were much more efficient than Avoid; however, the t-tests when dividing the data up into Legendaries/hr only gave p-values of 0.22 and 0.19 respectively. When comparing Moldran and Invis against each other, the p-value jumped to 0.91. In post-analysis I went and tried to estimate the necessary N needed to obtain a p-value of 0.05 with a power of 0.8 using the pooled variance. For Moldran v Invis, they’d need 20 000+ hrs of farming data; for Invis v Avoid they’d need 167 hrs.
From this example it becomes clear that although theoretically Legendaries/hr is a good measurement for farming efficiency due to its linear scaling with MF and items/hr, it’s not very practical for answering questions and optimizing our runs.
The model that I’m planning on creating is one where certain rare drops are used as predictors for Legendaries/hr to decrease the RNG using the law of large numbers. By that I mean, if we knew the ratio of rare 58+ gloves to legendaries was 4:1, when a farming run turns up with 8 gloves/hr its equivalent to 2 legendaries/hr which gives a secondary measurement of legendaries/hr. With more estimates the RNG induced variability is reduced. I’m also considering adding additional weight to rares based on their expected population variance.
Those of you familiar with the nuances of how magic find mechanics work in the game (posted by the wonderful group here at Diablofans) are probably aware that these ratios are dependent on the MF of the player. Their research has shown that the quantity of rare drops has diminishing returns with magic find due to the sequential roll theory, whereas legendaries have a (as far as we know) direct correlation.
Over the past 2 weeks I (and other trusted individuals) have collected some preliminary empirical data from our farming runs, only keeping track of our 58+ gloves, amulets, rings and legendaries. Using our pitifully small sample size of 100 legendaries collected I decided to just split the results into MF of 400-575 and MF of 189-400 for now. What I found is that the ratio of gloves rings and amulets to legendaries for the 400+ group was 3.47, 1.89 and 1.04 respectively; for the 400- MF group it was 4.26, 2.35 and 1.17. This amounts to a reduction of 18.6%, 19.3% and 11% in the three groups demonstrating that indeed the ratio of rares:legendaries will decrease with increasing MF (p of 0.003 by ANOVA).
Now that I’m confident that the empirical data matches the theoretical MF analysis, I’m planning on opening up this project for others to help in the data collection. What I hope to do is be able to determine a formula to calculate the ratio that incorporates the user’s MF. At the moment I’m unsure whether MP bonus drops will have a measureable effect on this ratio, so I’m going to be playing safe and collected that tid bit of data in case I have run a regression analysis for that.
So what data will I be collecting? Stuff that people normally are picking up: 58+ gloves, 58+ rings, 58+ amulets, 61 1-handers, 62 1-handers, 63 1-handers (all excluding 1 handed xbows), 63 shoulders, 63 pants, 58+ bracers meaning you would generate 10 estimates of Leg/hr.
Once I’m happy with the reliability of the model I’ll release a beta version for the public to try out. This will provide a method for people to figure out which MP they should be farming items on, the theorycrafters out there to determine the best routes for farming items as well as a way to measure our epeen against others.
If you are interested in helping me collect data, please send me a pm or a twitch pm at chazhangarang (I prefer this since the Twitch banner is a much more innocuous looking email to open at work). To avoid trolls messing up the data, I’m going to be restricting the data submission to “reliable” people that I feel like I can trust based off of their post history or history in Diablo in general. I could really use some data from the top high MP farmers that browse these forums.
The offline sheet can be found here (note that run times should be measured in min using decimals). I'll make an update when the online form will open up this weekend. Again, pm me here or preferably via twitch and I'll try to get to you as soon as possible. You should also add in notes for your runs and save your data so that in the future when I release the calculator you can have data ready to input.
Here's a FAQ for the sheet:
Is there a specific route to run?
The only rule is that it must be MP0 Act 3 and above to maintain the same ilvl drop ratios. Any route is acceptable as long as it gets 5 NV stacks.
What MF should I put in?
You should enter your base MF. Pretty much the MF that would show up in your details panel on MP0 with 0 NV stacks.
How should I deal with 5 NV stacks affecting my MF?
There are 2 options. 1. Time yourself for 3 runs to determine your run length and time to obtain 5 stacks and enter that data into the chart. This data can be reused if your runtime doesn't change. 2. Record your drops pre 5 NV and post 5 NV and submit it as 2 different data sets. The first set with a run time of 1 and 5 NV time of 1 and the 2nd as a run time of 1 and 5 NV time of 0.
How should I group the data?
Data should be grouped based on the MP that you ran, the specific route you ran and your MF. For MF there's a bit of wiggle room of up to 6% to account for your paragon level gains. ie. If you did an Alk run at MP0 and MP 5 they would be different sets. If you tried a full Act 3 clear and Alk run at MP0, they would be different sets (unless you're using the 2nd method of dealing with 5 NV listed above). If you were doing an Alk run on MP1 continuously from Paragon lvl 50-52 and went from 280 to 286% mf you can feel free to lump those together. Once you get to paragon lvl 53 you would make a new data set.
I'm going to be opening up a google doc submission once or twice a week, so you can lump all of your data together using the above rules until the submission time.
Whats the minimum data set size?
I'm going to be limiting data sets to be 2 or more legendaries. Although I realize this will make it so that people with 100 or less MF will unlikely be able to submit data (which also means the tool won't be useful for predicting results in that range), the tool is meant to be used to increase MFing efficiency. If you have less than 100 MF then the solution would be to get more MF rather than use this tool.
Do I have to loot everything listed?
Ideally yes. The more loot people are collecting the more accurate the resulting data model will be. If it really is a game breaker for participating, then you can just loot what you normally loot and write down a comment indicating what you item slots you didn't loot.
Thanks for putting up with my ramblings in this convoluted post!
@Invis
I've been theorycrafting a bit over the weekend to figure out true DPS estimates of the various classes (including using your Azmodan kill as an estimate) to figure out an optimal combination to get some pretty ridiculous DPS outputs to compete with your already impressive record. Already in the process of writing out a thorough primer for skills, skill rotations and positioning for the people involved. I personally don't really want to get into the whole WR running due to time limitations (CD's previous post shows the potential time sink) but I think I may have to play a larger role for this next challenge.
Unfortunately, I really think SK Magda will end up being a horrible comparison tool due to the unreliability of Magda's shielding mechanic that will differentiate us in the end. Sometimes it takes up to 10 sec for her to shield when left undisturbed which is really troubling given the estimated times I'm looking at. Hopefully both our teams will get lucky with her shields in the near future!