Question that I'd like to put to the Diablo fans community is, do additional skill effects, such as dodge and crit, (and most likely elemental resistances) will be affected by diminishing returns.
For anyone who does not know what I mean by this, diminishing returns is the process where the more times you dodge or crit, the less chance you will do either of these, until a point where the process itself goes on a cool down so to speak where you can't dodge or crit anymore.
For example, from memory of WoW, the ability to dodge goes on an internal cooldown of a few seconds after your character has dodged a few times, regardless of how high said dodge chance is. I was wondering if that is the same for D3?
The main reason I've inquired as that I haven't read anything on the site in the last few years to suggest such an occurance, and additionally the first time reading all of the monk's skills and abilities I wanted to make a dodge monk with a crimson rune attached to the mantra of evasion as one of the build ideas I really want to try out
Curious as to if anyone has any information in regards to such.
i wouldnt quote myself on this but i remember listening jay wilson in an interview that they didnt implement this kind of diminishing returns as it is not a clear-to-user mechanic
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Click on everything that moves until it blows up in bloody chunks and treasure"
-Kevin Martens
I don't think it's been announced for sure, but the Skill Calculator does seem to indicate that diminishing returns will be in use for a number of statistics in the game, including Chance to Dodge. However, it's not a cooldown system based on how frequently you dodge, but a change in the way Chance to Dodge bonuses stack.
If there were no diminishing returns, dodge bonuses would be "additive" - so 30% plus 10% would give you 40% chance to dodge. If this were the case, it would be possible for monks to reach 100% dodging and thus be untouchable, OPed, and broken.
Instead, they are "multiplicative". To calculate your true total chance to dodge, you have to convert all your dodge bonuses into % Chance to Get Hit. Then multiply those together:
30% Dodge + 10% Dodge
(1 - 0.3) x (1 - 0.1)
0.7 x 0.9 = 0.63 Chance To Be Hit = 37% Chance To Dodge
So in this case you only lose a few percentage points when you stack them. But let's say you devote the resources to gain some more dodge bonuses:
30% Dodge + 10% Dodge + 40% Dodge + 20% Dodge
(1 - 0.3) x (1 - 0.1) x (1 - 0.4) x (1 - 0.2)
0.7 x 0.9 x 0.6 x 0.8 = 0.3024 Chance To Be Hit = 69.76% Chance To Dodge
So in this case instead of adding up to 100%, you really only get just under 70%. So with the way this formula works, it's better to stack fewer, bigger sources than numerous small ones. Again, I don't think it's been confirmed 100% that all dodge works this way, but there are definitely diminishing returns.
In practical terms, this means that in order to make the most optimal build you probably want to diversify your buffs/monster debuffs. So instead of specializing in one defensive stat, you might spread them out across Chance To Dodge, Reduced Enemy Damage, Armor, Slow Movement, Chance Enemies Will Miss Attacks, etc.
But Diablo is all about build diversity, so if your goal is to make the ultimate dodge monk then every point you throw into dodge will still help you slaughter the demons of hell.
@Deleo
Hmm perhaps bad example in regards to, dodge chance reduced, therefore have a lesser effect the more you've dodged (was using the example from what I remember from wow hehe, however as for wow fairly sure it was a pvp specific thing as to stop rogues dodging everything and being to strong, and crit was just another secondary stat as an example, I have seen in other games do this for some reason, some balancing issue perhaps)
@Broken
I'd have to agree for a game like diablo 3, compared to say wow, where mobs are few and diablo there are huge hordes of demons, to have diminishing returns would be far too annoying with so many monsters.
@Raskolnikov
Yeha thats the formular I have been using to workout my build As well as some damage reuction from the first monk passive and such, so when I do get hit it wont be as hard.
For example, from memory of WoW, the ability to dodge goes on an internal cooldown of a few seconds after your character has dodged a few times, regardless of how high said dodge chance is. I was wondering if that is the same for D3?
Firstly, I don't remember wows dodge ever working that way. Diminishing returns are simple. The more you have the less (for example dodge/parry %) you get from these stats. I would imagine D3's dodge and crit will work the same way. In the beta so far from what I've seen every point of dexterity is .10% of dodge. Down the line with end game that will be greatly reduced due to diminishing returns.
What I would like to know is, will +damage from stats suffer from diminishing returns? Like with my monk at a certain point will dexterity slow down on that +dmg%? In the beta right now, every point of dex is a percentage of damage. I would love for that to be the case end game.
there is like allmost no point in stacking 1 stat too much cos u lose too much on others and overall balance of dmg and defense.
For example u would dodge 100% of a times but when caster mob lands a spell on you and he will cos u aint got resistance die from single spell cos u proly aint got enough hp or can reduce dmg from spell or any other way around.
For example, from memory of WoW, the ability to dodge goes on an internal cooldown of a few seconds after your character has dodged a few times, regardless of how high said dodge chance is. I was wondering if that is the same for D3?
Another question is if diminishing returns come into play in things like PVP? I haven't seen anything on this myself and am curious...
Could a team with heavy CC, ala all witch doctors, basically chain CC an entire other team? Or is there DR like in wow on CC effects used on other players/mobs?
there is like allmost no point in stacking 1 stat too much cos u lose too much on others and overall balance of dmg and defense.
For example u would dodge 100% of a times but when caster mob lands a spell on you and he will cos u aint got resistance die from single spell cos u proly aint got enough hp or can reduce dmg from spell or any other way around.
In Regards to Damage, the point of stacking dodge is to technically increase damage, with the Crimson rune in the evasion potentially outputting a lot of damage, for my build idea at present, the last passive is tentative depending on what i need, i could choose numerous defensive passives depending on what is most lacking.
For example, from memory of WoW, the ability to dodge goes on an internal cooldown of a few seconds after your character has dodged a few times, regardless of how high said dodge chance is. I was wondering if that is the same for D3?
Wow I haven't seen that video. However one thing to take into account with this is that at the level the monk is, 13, compared with those mobs being ~5, there is a huge difference in stats, therefore when theory craft about inferno build, one has to also take into account that all the mobs are going to be 1 level higher, thus your chance to dodge will be reduced, as the mobs will have a higher chance to hit you per se'.
Inferno will certainly make the game interesting for a while
For me diminishing returns just means small %upgrades (except crit and block bonus those are small values) become pointless for a stat that is already high. It means big upgrades of at least +20% are viable for things like dodge and damage reduction or else the skill slot/weapon enhancement is better off used for something else to ensure balanced attributes.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
For anyone who does not know what I mean by this, diminishing returns is the process where the more times you dodge or crit, the less chance you will do either of these, until a point where the process itself goes on a cool down so to speak where you can't dodge or crit anymore.
For example, from memory of WoW, the ability to dodge goes on an internal cooldown of a few seconds after your character has dodged a few times, regardless of how high said dodge chance is. I was wondering if that is the same for D3?
The main reason I've inquired as that I haven't read anything on the site in the last few years to suggest such an occurance, and additionally the first time reading all of the monk's skills and abilities I wanted to make a dodge monk with a crimson rune attached to the mantra of evasion as one of the build ideas I really want to try out
Curious as to if anyone has any information in regards to such.
-Kevin Martens
If there were no diminishing returns, dodge bonuses would be "additive" - so 30% plus 10% would give you 40% chance to dodge. If this were the case, it would be possible for monks to reach 100% dodging and thus be untouchable, OPed, and broken.
Instead, they are "multiplicative". To calculate your true total chance to dodge, you have to convert all your dodge bonuses into % Chance to Get Hit. Then multiply those together:
30% Dodge + 10% Dodge
(1 - 0.3) x (1 - 0.1)
0.7 x 0.9 = 0.63 Chance To Be Hit = 37% Chance To Dodge
So in this case you only lose a few percentage points when you stack them. But let's say you devote the resources to gain some more dodge bonuses:
30% Dodge + 10% Dodge + 40% Dodge + 20% Dodge
(1 - 0.3) x (1 - 0.1) x (1 - 0.4) x (1 - 0.2)
0.7 x 0.9 x 0.6 x 0.8 = 0.3024 Chance To Be Hit = 69.76% Chance To Dodge
So in this case instead of adding up to 100%, you really only get just under 70%. So with the way this formula works, it's better to stack fewer, bigger sources than numerous small ones. Again, I don't think it's been confirmed 100% that all dodge works this way, but there are definitely diminishing returns.
In practical terms, this means that in order to make the most optimal build you probably want to diversify your buffs/monster debuffs. So instead of specializing in one defensive stat, you might spread them out across Chance To Dodge, Reduced Enemy Damage, Armor, Slow Movement, Chance Enemies Will Miss Attacks, etc.
But Diablo is all about build diversity, so if your goal is to make the ultimate dodge monk then every point you throw into dodge will still help you slaughter the demons of hell.
Hmm perhaps bad example in regards to, dodge chance reduced, therefore have a lesser effect the more you've dodged (was using the example from what I remember from wow hehe, however as for wow fairly sure it was a pvp specific thing as to stop rogues dodging everything and being to strong, and crit was just another secondary stat as an example, I have seen in other games do this for some reason, some balancing issue perhaps)
@Broken
I'd have to agree for a game like diablo 3, compared to say wow, where mobs are few and diablo there are huge hordes of demons, to have diminishing returns would be far too annoying with so many monsters.
@Raskolnikov
Yeha thats the formular I have been using to workout my build As well as some damage reuction from the first monk passive and such, so when I do get hit it wont be as hard.
Firstly, I don't remember wows dodge ever working that way. Diminishing returns are simple. The more you have the less (for example dodge/parry %) you get from these stats. I would imagine D3's dodge and crit will work the same way. In the beta so far from what I've seen every point of dexterity is .10% of dodge. Down the line with end game that will be greatly reduced due to diminishing returns.
What I would like to know is, will +damage from stats suffer from diminishing returns? Like with my monk at a certain point will dexterity slow down on that +dmg%? In the beta right now, every point of dex is a percentage of damage. I would love for that to be the case end game.
For example u would dodge 100% of a times but when caster mob lands a spell on you and he will cos u aint got resistance die from single spell cos u proly aint got enough hp or can reduce dmg from spell or any other way around.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug454JiZYFQ
Could a team with heavy CC, ala all witch doctors, basically chain CC an entire other team? Or is there DR like in wow on CC effects used on other players/mobs?
In Regards to Damage, the point of stacking dodge is to technically increase damage, with the Crimson rune in the evasion potentially outputting a lot of damage, for my build idea at present, the last passive is tentative depending on what i need, i could choose numerous defensive passives depending on what is most lacking.
Wow I haven't seen that video. However one thing to take into account with this is that at the level the monk is, 13, compared with those mobs being ~5, there is a huge difference in stats, therefore when theory craft about inferno build, one has to also take into account that all the mobs are going to be 1 level higher, thus your chance to dodge will be reduced, as the mobs will have a higher chance to hit you per se'.
Inferno will certainly make the game interesting for a while