Koran states that all religions are different aspects of viewing Allah, and that prohpets from these religions were on the right path but Muhammad was the true prophet. It also states that Islamic followers should embrace other religions as they all have one common goal. To reach enlightenment through the eyes of the lord and the words of the prophet.
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Just as the Scorpion hunts...
Silently Lurking...
"Nothing is True. Everything is Permitted." ~ Ezio Auditore de Firenze
Just about all the prophets were warlords. Moses for example turned his Egyptian Jew slaves into a formidable army and took Palestine by force. He also ruthlessly punished any who dared to stray from the path of Yahweh. Jesus and Muhammad are the only two prophets out of all the religions that don't have evidence that leads to them being warlords.
Ancient and Medieval History is fucktasticly awesome!!
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Just as the Scorpion hunts...
Silently Lurking...
"Nothing is True. Everything is Permitted." ~ Ezio Auditore de Firenze
As far as I understand it, there are two significant parts to the Quaran. The first part is generally viewed as the peaceful one, which is what many of you are referencing, and the second part is the more violent one. Pretty much the same concept with the Bible. First part was God killing everyone with fire and plagues, and the second part was all about redemption and Christ overturning the old law. Mephy would probably know the best, though. He lives in Lebanon or something.
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And Venom basically hit my thoughts on the head. Or something, I can never get that thing right. They were radicals, of course they were violent.
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But I've never read it, so I can't say for sure. Definitely ask someone who knows both ends of the story first.
Let me just start off by saying that it's obvious that none of you have read the Quran, bothered to really understand, and actually asked knowledgeable Muslims about it (I'm not a "knowledgeable Muslim", I just know more stuff about Islam than you guys). I'll explain what I can, though.
So it doesn't say the right prophet killed a few hundred people?
The prophet Muhammad went to war. There were tribes back then, and when he was spreading his message, many naturally opposed him. What was he to do? Give up? Bribe them? He went to war, he won many, and he went into many cities. Do you know what he did when he got into those cities? He didn't loot. He didn't harm women. He didn't harm children. He didn't harm men. Even the people who didn't wish to convert to Islam didn't get treated ANY differently, save the tax they payed because they were now living in a Muslim place, or whatever.
Everyone in the West has this atrocious view with regards to the prophet Muhammad. That he was an adulterous, murdering pedophile. Why? I have no clue. He married a 12 year old girl, because her family had a lot of influence, and he saw in her the potential to keep the word of Islam alive after he was long gone. He didn't have sex with her, he didn't fondle her.
As far as I understand it, there are two significant parts to the Quaran. The first part is generally viewed as the peaceful one, which is what many of you are referencing, and the second part is the more violent one. Pretty much the same concept with the Bible. First part was God killing everyone with fire and plagues, and the second part was all about redemption and Christ overturning the old law. Mephy would probably know the best, though. He lives in Lebanon or something.
edit~
And Venom basically hit my thoughts on the head. Or something, I can never get that thing right. They were radicals, of course they were violent.
Edit~
But I've never read it, so I can't say for sure. Definitely ask someone who knows both ends of the story first.
I read the Quran. It's VERY difficult to understand a LOT of things. I speak Arabic. I've been speaking Arabic my entire life. I don't understand 85% of the Quran because its language is so difficult, the meanings are so difficult, and when you think something means this, it turns out that it means something ENTIRELY different. My mother is 51 years old. She read the Quran no less than 60 times, and there are still things she doesn't understand. You expect me to believe that a bunch of teenagers on a web forum get the Quran? You expect me to believe that ignorant piece of shit pastor, spreading hate and planting seeds of partition, truly knows Islam and the Quran? The Quran doesn't have violence in it. It says that God will have his revenge on the heretics. I know for sure that it says that God will punish them for not worshiping Him and for wronging Him. The parts people think spread absolute violence and terror, are VERY often completely and utterly misinterpreted. I don't remember a specific occasion where the Quran tells me to pick up a bomb, strap it to myself, and go kill infidels. Just because random morons in burkas say that God and the Quran told them to kill 2000 innocent people, it doesn't mean that THOSE people know what Islam and the Quran are about, too. It's a very delicate subject, man. I know that in the Old Testament, it was like..pure fucking carnage, but correct me if I'm wrong here, because I'm rusty on my Bible reading, but I think in Mark, someone asks Jesus if the word in the Old Testament is still the word of God, and Jesus says yes.
I heard an interesting discussion today on the radio (yeah, I know, who listens to radio these days?). It was between some guy who tore out pages of the Quaran in front of the White House iirc, and some Islamic woman.
They guy said he tore out the pages that basically said Christians and Jews were infidels who were to be beaten, beheaded, imprisoned, etc, and then he said that prophet Muhammad was known for beheading quite a few people. Generally, he was opposing the notion that Islam was a peaceful religion.
Can anyone who knows something about Islam have some input on this?
Haha, what bullshit. What absolute and utter bullshit. She should've asked that guy if he ever read the Quran, and gotten and actual explanation from a knowledgeable Muslim (a Sheikh) rather than stick to the translation, which was more than likely handed to him by Terry Jones. I'm absolutely certain that no page in the Quran says that Christians are infidels who are to be beaten, imprisoned, beheaded, or whatever. It does say, though, that the Jewish people are traitors of God and shouldn't be liked, and that war should break with them. Guess why? Because in the Torah, it states that the Jews should occupy the land between the Nile, and the Euphrates. Guess who the Quran was aimed at? People in the Arabian Peninsula, back in the day when it was "released" if that's even the proper word. I have the utmost respect for ANY Jewish person, I'm merely telling you why the Quran states that. Muhammad wasn't known for beheading quite a few people, unless said people were murderers, traitors, or committed some form of major crime back then. It's kinda like the electric chair, but with less electricity, and more word blade pressure applied to the neck.
Koran states that all religions are different aspects of viewing Allah, and that prohpets from these religions were on the right path but Muhammad was the true prophet. It also states that Islamic followers should embrace other religions as they all have one common goal. To reach enlightenment through the eyes of the lord and the words of the prophet.
Who told you that? I know that Muhammed said that there are different aspects in ISLAM of viewing Allah, certainly not "all religions". Just Islam, with Islam having several views on matters, but have ultimately the same goal.
So it doesn't say the right prophet killed a few hundred people?
I'm sorry, I guess war against other tribes should have ended with some handshaking and a tequila party. The crusades killed thousands, millions even. The inquisition anyone? Only Muhammed's killings were more justified, but somehow, some people completely forget about that. They only like to focus on everything any Muslim has ever done, and on everything any one who CLAIMS to be a Muslim has ever done, and forget everything else. Wake up. They want you to hate Muslims and Islam because Islam is the biggest threat to Judaism. And guess who has a huge say in America?
Yeah, but that's the same as saying that guns kill people. People kill people. People abuse religion. People are fucking corrupt. Every last one of them.
Even though im not a Muslim, the Islamic culture and history interests me nonetheless. I have read a book about Islam a few years ago and this is something that i kind of recall. Now im not sure if all this information is right so correct me if im wrong
The Arab pninsula is a desert. The society in that area consisted of Tribes which are basically big families that are also called "Hamula" or "Hamael" in plural. This composition of society forced people inside certain tribes to "Go by" certain rules that the family / tribe addopted. There were a few major tribes who ruled most of the area back then, and these tribes had absolute power. If the head of a tribe decided that he does not want to accept Islam as his religion it meant that his whole family will do as he says. When certain tribes did accept the Islam, the tribes who were at war with them earlier would naturally oppose this way of thought. The wars started because of political interests that influenced the area at those times. It was commonly accepted to invade another tribe's territory, pillage everything and kidnap the women. This meant that every family had to be ready to fight so every big tribe had soldiers and weapons. The prophet united some of the tribes and the ones who did not join, waged war and lost.
Even though im not a Muslim, the Islamic culture and history interests me nonetheless. I have read a book about Islam a few years ago and this is something that i kind of recall. Now im not sure if all this information is right so correct me if im wrong
The Arab pninsula is a desert. The society in that area consisted of Tribes which are basically big families that are also called "Hamula" or "Hamael" in plural. This composition of society forced people inside certain tribes to "Go by" certain rules that the family / tribe addopted. There were a few major tribes who ruled most of the area back then, and these tribes had absolute power. If the head of a tribe decided that he does not want to accept Islam as his religion it meant that his whole family will do as he says. When certain tribes did accept the Islam, the tribes who were at war with them earlier would naturally oppose this way of thought. The wars started because of political interests that influenced the area at those times. It was commonly accepted to invade another tribe's territory, pillage everything and kidnap the women. This meant that every family had to be ready to fight so every big tribe had soldiers and weapons. The prophet united some of the tribes and the ones who did not join, waged war and lost.
Pretty much, even though the Muslim tribes didn't pillage, rape, and loot.
I was told this story once, it's pretty interesting. In order for one to become a Muslim, he has to say a line in Arabic, and I'm not sure how to accurately translate it. You pretty much have to fully admit that there is not god but God, and that Muhammed is his prophet. The prophet Muhammed was waging war on one of the opposing tribes, and near the end, after He was victorious, a soldier of his was pointing his sword at one of the tribesmen. Before he struck, the tribesmen converted to Islam, but the soldier struck nontheless. The prophet summoned him, and asked him why he did that, and the soldier told him "because he only converted out of fear, not out of pure belief and conviction" and the Prophet replied "How do you know that it wasn't out of pure belief and conviction? You do not know the heart of man. Today, you killed a Muslim".
Yeah, that same guy raped women, decapitated innocent countrymen, and fondled children. LOL.
The prophet Muhammad went to war. There were tribes back then, and when he was spreading his message, many naturally opposed him. What was he to do? Give up? Bribe them? He went to war, he won many, and he went into many cities.
If you go to war to push you religion, and in that war people have died, your religion is officially not peaceful, and your religion is officially built on only the very simple concept of Might Makes Right...
Even wars in self-defense, the negative consequences of those wars are not justified, cannot be overlooked, cannot be ignored, forgiven, forgotten, or whatever, by any code that I care about.
You went to a war, you have no business being a prophet. You have no business saying you are peaceful. You have no business preaching love and forgiveness.
The prophet Muhammad went to war. There were tribes back then, and when he was spreading his message, many naturally opposed him. What was he to do? Give up? Bribe them? He went to war, he won many, and he went into many cities.
If you go to war to push you religion, and in that war people have died, your religion is officially not peaceful, and your religion is officially built on only the very simple concept of Might Makes Right...
Even wars in self-defense, the negative consequences of those wars are not justified, cannot be overlooked, cannot be ignored, forgiven, forgotten, or whatever, by any code that I care about.
You went to a war, you have no business being a prophet. You have no business saying you are peaceful. You have no business preaching love and forgiveness.
They were occupying Muslim religious grounds, desecrating it. They provoked everything, they instigated everything, what was done needed to be done. I doubt you'd just offer someone lemonade if he was occupying your home, pissing on all your belongings, and teasing you about it. There was no "911" back then, sugar. There were tribes. When one tribe opposed the beliefs of another, war was inevitable. It's not the Prophet's fault that Quraish were instigating heretics that didn't really like diplomacy.
They were occupying Muslim religious grounds, desecrating it. They provoked everything, they instigated everything, what was done needed to be done.
In other words 9/11 could be completely justified if a bunch of Americans somehow desecrated some Islamic stuff or if that pastor burned the Quran, after all?
I'm sorry but that's exactly what it sounds like.
Provocation does not justify a war. That's a very idiotic reason for a war, actually.
Needed to be done...? OK.
The fact that you worship a bunch of sacred turtles and I decide to eat them does not give you any right whatsoever to kill me. Except by Might Makes Right, which I covered above.
There was "911" back then, sugar. There were tribes. When one tribe opposed the beliefs of another, war was inevitable. It's not the Prophet's fault that Quraish were instigating heretics that didn't really like diplomacy.
I don't care what was inevitable. Did war happen, did Muhammed cause it, was it approved, and if yes, Islam is not peaceful, period.
Yet still all you're doing is justifying a war. A war existed. Quaran says this war was OK?
My question stands.
How can this religion, that says this is OK and fine, can be called peaceful?
I am not talking about common sense or right or wrong or whatever, I am talking specifically about what I understand under the word "peaceful".
I'm sorry, but you're equating completely irrelevant things. It was religious ground. That tribe opposed Islam, desecrated it, and wanted to go to war with Muhammed. They were going to attack his tribe. What was he to do? Escape? What the fuck are you even rambling about? I don't get it, I honestly don't. Someone is attacking you, that someone is about to kill you, do you die because you want to be "peaceful" ? I doubt it.
Yar... you're such a badass that we removed all references to you in the emoticons :/.
We cleaned them out a while back when Scyber made us new ones.
Ancient and Medieval History is fucktasticly awesome!!
Its my second time
edit~
And Venom basically hit my thoughts on the head. Or something, I can never get that thing right. They were radicals, of course they were violent.
Edit~
But I've never read it, so I can't say for sure. Definitely ask someone who knows both ends of the story first.
The prophet Muhammad went to war. There were tribes back then, and when he was spreading his message, many naturally opposed him. What was he to do? Give up? Bribe them? He went to war, he won many, and he went into many cities. Do you know what he did when he got into those cities? He didn't loot. He didn't harm women. He didn't harm children. He didn't harm men. Even the people who didn't wish to convert to Islam didn't get treated ANY differently, save the tax they payed because they were now living in a Muslim place, or whatever.
Everyone in the West has this atrocious view with regards to the prophet Muhammad. That he was an adulterous, murdering pedophile. Why? I have no clue. He married a 12 year old girl, because her family had a lot of influence, and he saw in her the potential to keep the word of Islam alive after he was long gone. He didn't have sex with her, he didn't fondle her.
I read the Quran. It's VERY difficult to understand a LOT of things. I speak Arabic. I've been speaking Arabic my entire life. I don't understand 85% of the Quran because its language is so difficult, the meanings are so difficult, and when you think something means this, it turns out that it means something ENTIRELY different. My mother is 51 years old. She read the Quran no less than 60 times, and there are still things she doesn't understand. You expect me to believe that a bunch of teenagers on a web forum get the Quran? You expect me to believe that ignorant piece of shit pastor, spreading hate and planting seeds of partition, truly knows Islam and the Quran? The Quran doesn't have violence in it. It says that God will have his revenge on the heretics. I know for sure that it says that God will punish them for not worshiping Him and for wronging Him. The parts people think spread absolute violence and terror, are VERY often completely and utterly misinterpreted. I don't remember a specific occasion where the Quran tells me to pick up a bomb, strap it to myself, and go kill infidels. Just because random morons in burkas say that God and the Quran told them to kill 2000 innocent people, it doesn't mean that THOSE people know what Islam and the Quran are about, too. It's a very delicate subject, man. I know that in the Old Testament, it was like..pure fucking carnage, but correct me if I'm wrong here, because I'm rusty on my Bible reading, but I think in Mark, someone asks Jesus if the word in the Old Testament is still the word of God, and Jesus says yes.
Haha, what bullshit. What absolute and utter bullshit. She should've asked that guy if he ever read the Quran, and gotten and actual explanation from a knowledgeable Muslim (a Sheikh) rather than stick to the translation, which was more than likely handed to him by Terry Jones. I'm absolutely certain that no page in the Quran says that Christians are infidels who are to be beaten, imprisoned, beheaded, or whatever. It does say, though, that the Jewish people are traitors of God and shouldn't be liked, and that war should break with them. Guess why? Because in the Torah, it states that the Jews should occupy the land between the Nile, and the Euphrates. Guess who the Quran was aimed at? People in the Arabian Peninsula, back in the day when it was "released" if that's even the proper word. I have the utmost respect for ANY Jewish person, I'm merely telling you why the Quran states that. Muhammad wasn't known for beheading quite a few people, unless said people were murderers, traitors, or committed some form of major crime back then. It's kinda like the electric chair, but with less electricity, and more word blade pressure applied to the neck.
Who told you that? I know that Muhammed said that there are different aspects in ISLAM of viewing Allah, certainly not "all religions". Just Islam, with Islam having several views on matters, but have ultimately the same goal.
I'm sorry, I guess war against other tribes should have ended with some handshaking and a tequila party. The crusades killed thousands, millions even. The inquisition anyone? Only Muhammed's killings were more justified, but somehow, some people completely forget about that. They only like to focus on everything any Muslim has ever done, and on everything any one who CLAIMS to be a Muslim has ever done, and forget everything else. Wake up. They want you to hate Muslims and Islam because Islam is the biggest threat to Judaism. And guess who has a huge say in America?
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
The Arab pninsula is a desert. The society in that area consisted of Tribes which are basically big families that are also called "Hamula" or "Hamael" in plural. This composition of society forced people inside certain tribes to "Go by" certain rules that the family / tribe addopted. There were a few major tribes who ruled most of the area back then, and these tribes had absolute power. If the head of a tribe decided that he does not want to accept Islam as his religion it meant that his whole family will do as he says. When certain tribes did accept the Islam, the tribes who were at war with them earlier would naturally oppose this way of thought. The wars started because of political interests that influenced the area at those times. It was commonly accepted to invade another tribe's territory, pillage everything and kidnap the women. This meant that every family had to be ready to fight so every big tribe had soldiers and weapons. The prophet united some of the tribes and the ones who did not join, waged war and lost.
Pretty much, even though the Muslim tribes didn't pillage, rape, and loot.
I was told this story once, it's pretty interesting. In order for one to become a Muslim, he has to say a line in Arabic, and I'm not sure how to accurately translate it. You pretty much have to fully admit that there is not god but God, and that Muhammed is his prophet. The prophet Muhammed was waging war on one of the opposing tribes, and near the end, after He was victorious, a soldier of his was pointing his sword at one of the tribesmen. Before he struck, the tribesmen converted to Islam, but the soldier struck nontheless. The prophet summoned him, and asked him why he did that, and the soldier told him "because he only converted out of fear, not out of pure belief and conviction" and the Prophet replied "How do you know that it wasn't out of pure belief and conviction? You do not know the heart of man. Today, you killed a Muslim".
Yeah, that same guy raped women, decapitated innocent countrymen, and fondled children. LOL.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkY9HtwXNU8
Even wars in self-defense, the negative consequences of those wars are not justified, cannot be overlooked, cannot be ignored, forgiven, forgotten, or whatever, by any code that I care about.
You went to a war, you have no business being a prophet. You have no business saying you are peaceful. You have no business preaching love and forgiveness.
They were occupying Muslim religious grounds, desecrating it. They provoked everything, they instigated everything, what was done needed to be done. I doubt you'd just offer someone lemonade if he was occupying your home, pissing on all your belongings, and teasing you about it. There was no "911" back then, sugar. There were tribes. When one tribe opposed the beliefs of another, war was inevitable. It's not the Prophet's fault that Quraish were instigating heretics that didn't really like diplomacy.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
I'm sorry but that's exactly what it sounds like.
Provocation does not justify a war. That's a very idiotic reason for a war, actually.
Needed to be done...? OK.
The fact that you worship a bunch of sacred turtles and I decide to eat them does not give you any right whatsoever to kill me. Except by Might Makes Right, which I covered above.
This is similar to a self-defense war scenario, I covered that. What does this have to do with religion, though?
I don't care what was inevitable. Did war happen, did Muhammed cause it, was it approved, and if yes, Islam is not peaceful, period.
Yet still all you're doing is justifying a war. A war existed. Quaran says this war was OK?
My question stands.
How can this religion, that says this is OK and fine, can be called peaceful?
I am not talking about common sense or right or wrong or whatever, I am talking specifically about what I understand under the word "peaceful".
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
I myself don't know of any other religion where the the guy who started it all went to war that caused the death of many.
Shit happened after Jesus left(that's what I understood anyway)- the guy was supposed to always have preached about love and respect.
So I guess that would be quite a difference. I'm not pointing fingers. Just putting it out there for someone to shed some light on it maybe.
Mephisto, we're not talking about me, or what I would do. My moral code is not peaceful. We're talking about Islam, and what Islam considers OK.