oh geez, lets take a deep breath and take it down a notch.
It seems like you two are looking at two different parts of the same picture.
superfula has a good point that I agree with, the people you were talking to, explained the situation and gave you an answer, thats all they could do, there was no longer a reason to fight with them, or be rude to them.
HOWEVER, though I dont agree with you about it being bad PR, that is indeed your right to think that, and your right to contact them about that if you so wish, but the smarter course of action would be to have contacted them later when a supervisor was there, that could actually help you.
I also think its total crap that EA does not have a contact form for a user to contact a supervisor if he or she feels the need to when one is not on shift.
But the point being the people you talked to, did everything "they" could, so being rude/being mad at them...served no point, take that to the people that matter.
That was as "high" as it goes, that was the escalated department, that's it. There was no one else to contact. I had to wait to even get someone in the 'escalation' department
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
oh geez, lets take a deep breath and take it down a notch.
It seems like you two are looking at two different parts of the same picture.
superfula has a good point that I agree with, the people you were talking to, explained the situation and gave you an answer, thats all they could do, there was no longer a reason to fight with them, or be rude to them.
HOWEVER, though I dont agree with you about it being bad PR, that is indeed your right to think that, and your right to contact them about that if you so wish, but the smarter course of action would be to have contacted them later when a supervisor was there, that could actually help you.
I also think its total crap that EA does not have a contact form for a user to contact a supervisor if he or she feels the need to when one is not on shift.
But the point being the people you talked to, did everything "they" could, so being rude/being mad at them...served no point, take that to the people that matter.
That was as "high" as it goes, that was the escalated department, that's it. There was no one else to contact. I had to wait to even get someone in the 'escalation' department
Further, I did not harass him, I was very straight and within my rights to say everything I said, infact
"All i want was what was promised to me in the deal, I understand you're restricted for doing certain things, and you have a guideline and process that you have to go through and that it takes time. It's nothing you've done, I just want what I was promised, there are others , 2 others i know of, that have the same problem, that live in Socal so :S"
At no point was I an asshole, soz
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
If I were you, I wouldn't be sharing your conversations publicly. The EA support reps were excellent. They told you exactly what you asked them and despite your rude behavior, continued to calmly tell you they couldn't do anything and told you why.
You didn't read the terms and conditions regarding the time zone issue, were a jackass to the support reps who were doing their job, and you actually think you can seek legal action. Wow.... Or better yet, how about you don't wait until the last minute to pre-order.
uhm? I did read it? you obviously missed something, they couldnt even find the stipulation for the time zones, and they work/support this product. He had to AFK for 15 minutes to try and find it, and couldnt, then came back and said ya ur right. Nt tho, stop being an EA flameboyfanboi. This is here for people to see the TRASH service EA gives you.
"Ya you're right, you're 100% correct, but we're not giving you what is yours, that you paid for, that you used our service (origin) for"
its not about being an jackass, it's about being correct, being a consumer, being given the product I payed for using a service, and was denied, its a legal issue, its bad PR, and it's wrong.
I understand your needing to vent after spending time with CS and having your issue unresolved. That does suck that you didn't get into the beta. However, you are coming off as a little immature. You obviously haven't dealt with a lot of customer service departments if you think this is the "worse customer service on the face of the planet". It gets much worse than this, trust me.
Also, bitching at the CS rep and threatening stuff like "PR nightmare" is certainly not going to help the situation. The bottom line is that you got screwed out of the beta due to a technicality with the cutoff time. Shit like that can happen when you trying doing something at the last minute. It sucks. Learn from it and move on, it's not the end of the world.
Oh and before you say anything, I'm not a "flameboyfanboi" or whatever you called the other poster.
If I were you, I wouldn't be sharing your conversations publicly. The EA support reps were excellent. They told you exactly what you asked them and despite your rude behavior, continued to calmly tell you they couldn't do anything and told you why.
You didn't read the terms and conditions regarding the time zone issue, were a jackass to the support reps who were doing their job, and you actually think you can seek legal action. Wow.... Or better yet, how about you don't wait until the last minute to pre-order.
uhm? I did read it? you obviously missed something, they couldnt even find the stipulation for the time zones, and they work/support this product. He had to AFK for 15 minutes to try and find it, and couldnt, then came back and said ya ur right. Nt tho, stop being an EA flameboyfanboi. This is here for people to see the TRASH service EA gives you.
"Ya you're right, you're 100% correct, but we're not giving you what is yours, that you paid for, that you used our service (origin) for"
its not about being an jackass, it's about being correct, being a consumer, being given the product I payed for using a service, and was denied, its a legal issue, its bad PR, and it's wrong.
I understand your needing to vent after spending time with CS and having your issue unresolved. That does suck that you didn't get into the beta. However, you are coming off as a little immature. You obviously haven't dealt with a lot of customer service departments if you think this is the "worse customer service on the face of the planet". It gets much worse than this, trust me.
Also, bitching at the CS rep and threatening stuff like "PR nightmare" is certainly not going to help the situation. The bottom line is that you got screwed out of the beta due to a technicality with the cutoff time. Shit like that can happen when you trying doing something at the last minute. It sucks. Learn from it and move on, it's not the end of the world.
Oh and before you say anything, I'm not a "flameboyfanboi" or whatever you called the other poster.
once again, not being given a service you paid for is a breach of contract, and what they did is a deceptive form of trade. How is it NOT a PR nightmare? trust im not the only one, someone else posted in this forum with his as well. They are handling all their beta problems terribly, and were not prepared. A quick visit to EA forums will show other complaints as well about similar shenanigans.
When they offer someone something, and you pay them money, they are contractually obligated to give you the service. I was in the right every step of the way and was denied my legal right, and was told "sorry".
Sorry, I was taught that you abide by your contractual obligations, or dont go into business. I understand that it's not his fault, but unfortunately I was directed to HIS department, and HE was not able to resolve an issue that is easily resolved, nor could he transfer me anywhere else to solve the issue, sorry, that's not how you run a business.
When you don't give a fuck about your reputation as a business and do this to your consumers, you don't deserve to be in business, they wont be getting anymore of my business, and tons of forum posts on EA are kind of backing me up on this PR nightmare.
I wasn't threatening him with a PR nightmare, I was informing him it was going to be one, and it is.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Op is right, but EA wrecks they may not be blizz but they sell games every year for lots of money and won't stop, they don't need good customer service and that sucks. Blizz isn't the worlds greatest either...10 years for a game, then releasing "live" beta but no one gets keys, and no definite release date. All companies are the same.
Again with the "I'm a blizzard fan and so I'm entitled to a god damn beta key." You seem to forget that you did not pay for beta. Beta is not associated with preorders and blizzard is in no way obligated to give ANYONE a key. The fact that they did not send out public keys when they went "live" is irrelevant because again... YOU DID NOT PAY. Blizzard can do wtf they want without you having a single right to complain until you have actually paid for the merchandise.
@ The OP... I understand that you are upset that you did not recieve your beta key as it was part of a promotion. However, from a legal standpoint you are wrong. This is not a breach of contract.... I am assuming you have not taken a UCC Law class ... or if you have you slept through it. EA could win this case without any problem. In cases of time zone ambiguity (especially in cases regarding online marketing) the assumption would be whatever time zone the vendor belongs to (aka corporate HQ). Additionally, the vendors "consideration" was the game, while yours was the $$$ for the game, and depending on the court the beta key was simply something thrown in and not in the terms of your "contract of sale."
Let's forget about the law, time zones, customer service, regulations, stipulations, fanboys and what not.
Good service is about making the customer happy. Whatever it takes, unless it hurts the company a lot. Sometimes it's even worth it to hurt the business a little bit if the end result is gonna be a satisfied customer who feels he's been taken care of well in a difficult situation. That's how you earn and keep your loyal customers. At this point when a customer comes raging to customer service that he got screwed over, unless it was technically impossible (which i don't believe they proved it was), they have an obligation to make the customer happy whatever the means, screw the regulations. You're the employee, you pick up the phone, call the right guys and do everything you can.
Op is right, but EA wrecks they may not be blizz but they sell games every year for lots of money and won't stop, they don't need good customer service and that sucks. Blizz isn't the worlds greatest either...10 years for a game, then releasing "live" beta but no one gets keys, and no definite release date. All companies are the same.
Again with the "I'm a blizzard fan and so I'm entitled to a god damn beta key." You seem to forget that you did not pay for beta. Beta is not associated with preorders and blizzard is in no way obligated to give ANYONE a key. The fact that they did not send out public keys when they went "live" is irrelevant because again... YOU DID NOT PAY. Blizzard can do wtf they want without you having a single right to complain until you have actually paid for the merchandise.
@ The OP... I understand that you are upset that you did not recieve your beta key as it was part of a promotion. However, from a legal standpoint you are wrong. This is not a breach of contract.... I am assuming you have not taken a UCC Law class ... or if you have you slept through it. EA could win this case without any problem. In cases of time zone ambiguity (especially in cases regarding online marketing) the assumption would be whatever time zone the vendor belongs to (aka corporate HQ). Additionally, the vendors "consideration" was the game, while yours was the $$$ for the game, and depending on the court the beta key was simply something thrown in and not in the terms of your "contract of sale."
still a form of deceptive advertising? to promise part of a promotional deal with you meeting the stipulations then not granting you the deal
also, the EA headquarters is West Coast
Further the use of the Beta Key which was part of the promotional deal is the ONLY reason I had used the origins service in the first place as stated in my conversation with EA.
And no I dont study Law, I study security, serial murder, human behaviour, abnormal behaviour, young offenders etc. the only law I pick up are things around those areas.
However, having a promotional deal, then not giving someone the deal for buying your product is not truthful advertising, if the advertisement is not truthful it is deceitful, which can be reported to the FTC and has been. There are also hundreds of other people I've found within 10 minutes of searching for it, on the internet that had similar problems like mine.
At the end of the day 2 things are certain
It WAS deceptive advertising
it WAS a gross act of customer service. I've worked in the hospitality industry for YEARS, and barring insanity, the consumer is always right. You always treat your customers like gold, so they come back. The guy asks for medium rare at the table and you know he asked for medium rare, you bring him a medium rare stake, and he says it was supposed to be medium, guess what? You go back to the fucking kitchen and you get him a medium, that's how PROPER customer service is done. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING Kansuke has said is true.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
In Terms of Service: As a Tester, you are invited to play beta games for the sole purpose of evaluating the games and identifying errors. Nothing in these guidelines, or on this site, shall be construed as granting you any rights or privileges of any kind with respect to the beta games or content that you find here. The beta games are provided for testing on an "as is" and "as available" basis and we make no warranty to you of any kind, express or implied.
Additionally: NO WARRANTY IS GIVEN ABOUT THE QUALITY, FUNCTIONALITY, AVAILABILITY OR PERFORMANCE OF EA SOFTWARE OR EA SERVICES. EA DOES NOT ASSUME LIABILITY FOR INABILITY TO OBTAIN OR USE ANY CONTENT, ENTITLEMENTS, GOODS OR SERVICES. EA PROVIDES EA SERVICES ON A COMMERCIALLY REASONABLE BASIS AND DOES NOT GUARANTEE THAT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO ACCESS OR USE EA SERVICES AT TIMES OR LOCATIONS OF YOUR CHOOSING, OR THAT EA WILL HAVE ADEQUATE CAPACITY FOR EA SERVICES AS A WHOLE OR IN ANY SPECIFIC GEOGRAPHIC AREA.
TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOUR SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ANY DISPUTE WITH EA OR ITS LICENSORS ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO EA SERVICES AND/OR EA PRODUCTS IS TO STOP USING EA SERVICES, AND TO CANCEL YOUR ACCOUNT.
Sadly you did sign away all your rights to being upset about not getting into the Beta when you agreed to these terms, regardless of what the advertisement said. While it seems underhanded, it is technically your fault for not reading it all thoroughly.
I was going to say that, if the only reason you bought it through Origin was for the Beta, the least you could do at this point is get your money back (and they may do that for you through customer service, might be worth a shot), but it also stipulates in their Terms of Sale that they won't refund your money. "Subject to the following paragraph, there are no refunds for products or services purchased on our Websites." [The paragraph that follows refers exclusively to members of the EU]
TL;DR - Multi-billion dollar corporation removes your rights to being upset about this by making you sign their ToS and agree to their Terms of Sale. Whether you see them as good business practices or not, you agreed to having no rights.
Someone once said, "The customer isn't always right, but he's still the customer.".
It's a bizarre business model EA has adopted, as far as I'm concerned. I suppose their profits from BF3 preorders et al are worth the customer dissatisfaction to them - I'm certainly more uneasy about SW:TOR than I was before having skimmed through their terms. -.-
waited too long? I ordered during the stipulated time frame, maybe you should learn something about contractual obligation of a sale. I do have proof, my flight tickets, nt tho son, because you know, I flew, and there is evidence of such things? LOL you're some mad fanboi hot damn. Let me guess?
You got george on one nut, and lucas on the other? herp derp. You wanna be a fucking idiot, I can do that to, now how about you let the big boys talk, go home to mommy 'kid'
And yet you continue to prove my point brilliantly with posts such as this. I've purchased one EA game in the past 5 years, so calling me a "fanboi" isn't accurate. I have no doubt EA has made their share of screwups, but this isn't one of them.
As far as proof...you said yourself you never received an email after purchasing, which is very suspect. Considering emails are automatically sent out by the system once your order goes through, I don't believe the claim.
As others have said, you didn't read the terms then acted like a jerk to the service rep hoping to get something you didn't qualify for because you ordered late.
waited too long? I ordered during the stipulated time frame, maybe you should learn something about contractual obligation of a sale. I do have proof, my flight tickets, nt tho son, because you know, I flew, and there is evidence of such things? LOL you're some mad fanboi hot damn. Let me guess?
You got george on one nut, and lucas on the other? herp derp. You wanna be a fucking idiot, I can do that to, now how about you let the big boys talk, go home to mommy 'kid'
And yet you continue to prove my point brilliantly with posts such as this.
As far as proof...you said yourself you never received an email after purchasing, which is very suspect. As I said, considering emails are automatically sent out by the system once your order goes through, I don't believe the claim.
As others have said, you didn't read the terms then acted like a jerk to the service rep hoping to get something you didn't qualify for because you ordered late. And now you are being an asshole to people who don't agree with you. So my question....are you like this to everyone who does't agree with you or give in to your demands?
You're a fucking retard, and cannot grasp what has happened, and as such I'm no longer responding to you. I told the service rep I found the email you nimrod. It was dated that I should of been in the beta, there are several others as well who have this exact problem, the other post Lilj has the EXACT same problem, lives on the west coast, ordered prior to the cut off date, has an email saying he ordered before the cut off date, still was given no access. Same thing as me.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Someone once said, "The customer isn't always right, but he's still the customer.".
It's a bizarre business model EA has adopted, as far as I'm concerned. I suppose their profits from BF3 preorders et al are worth the customer dissatisfaction to them - I'm certain more uneasy about SW:TOR than I was before having skimmed through their terms. -.-
I don't see why people are assaulting the OP, even if he did come off slightly repetitive and immature. He's still in his full right. There should've been a time zone specified. The CS might not be able to give him a key but they should've been able to escalate the issue. This is classic corporate "Deal with it yourself" matter.
Whether OP was right or not doesn't matter. He could be the most deluded and wrong person on the planet, he's still a customer and was not treated like one.
That was as "high" as it goes, that was the escalated department, that's it. There was no one else to contact. I had to wait to even get someone in the 'escalation' department
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Further, I did not harass him, I was very straight and within my rights to say everything I said, infact
"All i want was what was promised to me in the deal, I understand you're restricted for doing certain things, and you have a guideline and process that you have to go through and that it takes time. It's nothing you've done, I just want what I was promised, there are others , 2 others i know of, that have the same problem, that live in Socal so :S"
At no point was I an asshole, soz
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
I understand your needing to vent after spending time with CS and having your issue unresolved. That does suck that you didn't get into the beta. However, you are coming off as a little immature. You obviously haven't dealt with a lot of customer service departments if you think this is the "worse customer service on the face of the planet". It gets much worse than this, trust me.
Also, bitching at the CS rep and threatening stuff like "PR nightmare" is certainly not going to help the situation. The bottom line is that you got screwed out of the beta due to a technicality with the cutoff time. Shit like that can happen when you trying doing something at the last minute. It sucks. Learn from it and move on, it's not the end of the world.
Oh and before you say anything, I'm not a "flameboyfanboi" or whatever you called the other poster.
once again, not being given a service you paid for is a breach of contract, and what they did is a deceptive form of trade. How is it NOT a PR nightmare? trust im not the only one, someone else posted in this forum with his as well. They are handling all their beta problems terribly, and were not prepared. A quick visit to EA forums will show other complaints as well about similar shenanigans.
When they offer someone something, and you pay them money, they are contractually obligated to give you the service. I was in the right every step of the way and was denied my legal right, and was told "sorry".
Sorry, I was taught that you abide by your contractual obligations, or dont go into business. I understand that it's not his fault, but unfortunately I was directed to HIS department, and HE was not able to resolve an issue that is easily resolved, nor could he transfer me anywhere else to solve the issue, sorry, that's not how you run a business.
When you don't give a fuck about your reputation as a business and do this to your consumers, you don't deserve to be in business, they wont be getting anymore of my business, and tons of forum posts on EA are kind of backing me up on this PR nightmare.
I wasn't threatening him with a PR nightmare, I was informing him it was going to be one, and it is.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Also, the world (as deemed by gaming) is not centered on 'EST'. However most of them are smart enough to write PST or EST lol.
D3 Channel: OnetwoD3
EA is not, apparently
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Again with the "I'm a blizzard fan and so I'm entitled to a god damn beta key." You seem to forget that you did not pay for beta. Beta is not associated with preorders and blizzard is in no way obligated to give ANYONE a key. The fact that they did not send out public keys when they went "live" is irrelevant because again... YOU DID NOT PAY. Blizzard can do wtf they want without you having a single right to complain until you have actually paid for the merchandise.
@ The OP... I understand that you are upset that you did not recieve your beta key as it was part of a promotion. However, from a legal standpoint you are wrong. This is not a breach of contract.... I am assuming you have not taken a UCC Law class ... or if you have you slept through it. EA could win this case without any problem. In cases of time zone ambiguity (especially in cases regarding online marketing) the assumption would be whatever time zone the vendor belongs to (aka corporate HQ). Additionally, the vendors "consideration" was the game, while yours was the $$$ for the game, and depending on the court the beta key was simply something thrown in and not in the terms of your "contract of sale."
Good service is about making the customer happy. Whatever it takes, unless it hurts the company a lot. Sometimes it's even worth it to hurt the business a little bit if the end result is gonna be a satisfied customer who feels he's been taken care of well in a difficult situation. That's how you earn and keep your loyal customers. At this point when a customer comes raging to customer service that he got screwed over, unless it was technically impossible (which i don't believe they proved it was), they have an obligation to make the customer happy whatever the means, screw the regulations. You're the employee, you pick up the phone, call the right guys and do everything you can.
Unless you don't care.
still a form of deceptive advertising? to promise part of a promotional deal with you meeting the stipulations then not granting you the deal
also, the EA headquarters is West Coast
Further the use of the Beta Key which was part of the promotional deal is the ONLY reason I had used the origins service in the first place as stated in my conversation with EA.
And no I dont study Law, I study security, serial murder, human behaviour, abnormal behaviour, young offenders etc. the only law I pick up are things around those areas.
However, having a promotional deal, then not giving someone the deal for buying your product is not truthful advertising, if the advertisement is not truthful it is deceitful, which can be reported to the FTC and has been. There are also hundreds of other people I've found within 10 minutes of searching for it, on the internet that had similar problems like mine.
At the end of the day 2 things are certain
It WAS deceptive advertising
it WAS a gross act of customer service. I've worked in the hospitality industry for YEARS, and barring insanity, the consumer is always right. You always treat your customers like gold, so they come back. The guy asks for medium rare at the table and you know he asked for medium rare, you bring him a medium rare stake, and he says it was supposed to be medium, guess what? You go back to the fucking kitchen and you get him a medium, that's how PROPER customer service is done. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING Kansuke has said is true.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Additionally: NO WARRANTY IS GIVEN ABOUT THE QUALITY, FUNCTIONALITY, AVAILABILITY OR PERFORMANCE OF EA SOFTWARE OR EA SERVICES. EA DOES NOT ASSUME LIABILITY FOR INABILITY TO OBTAIN OR USE ANY CONTENT, ENTITLEMENTS, GOODS OR SERVICES. EA PROVIDES EA SERVICES ON A COMMERCIALLY REASONABLE BASIS AND DOES NOT GUARANTEE THAT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO ACCESS OR USE EA SERVICES AT TIMES OR LOCATIONS OF YOUR CHOOSING, OR THAT EA WILL HAVE ADEQUATE CAPACITY FOR EA SERVICES AS A WHOLE OR IN ANY SPECIFIC GEOGRAPHIC AREA.
TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOUR SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ANY DISPUTE WITH EA OR ITS LICENSORS ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO EA SERVICES AND/OR EA PRODUCTS IS TO STOP USING EA SERVICES, AND TO CANCEL YOUR ACCOUNT.
Sadly you did sign away all your rights to being upset about not getting into the Beta when you agreed to these terms, regardless of what the advertisement said. While it seems underhanded, it is technically your fault for not reading it all thoroughly.
I was going to say that, if the only reason you bought it through Origin was for the Beta, the least you could do at this point is get your money back (and they may do that for you through customer service, might be worth a shot), but it also stipulates in their Terms of Sale that they won't refund your money. "Subject to the following paragraph, there are no refunds for products or services purchased on our Websites." [The paragraph that follows refers exclusively to members of the EU]
TL;DR - Multi-billion dollar corporation removes your rights to being upset about this by making you sign their ToS and agree to their Terms of Sale. Whether you see them as good business practices or not, you agreed to having no rights.
Edit: ToS not ToA >.<
And yet you continue to prove my point brilliantly with posts such as this. I've purchased one EA game in the past 5 years, so calling me a "fanboi" isn't accurate. I have no doubt EA has made their share of screwups, but this isn't one of them.
As far as proof...you said yourself you never received an email after purchasing, which is very suspect. Considering emails are automatically sent out by the system once your order goes through, I don't believe the claim.
As others have said, you didn't read the terms then acted like a jerk to the service rep hoping to get something you didn't qualify for because you ordered late.
You're a fucking retard, and cannot grasp what has happened, and as such I'm no longer responding to you. I told the service rep I found the email you nimrod. It was dated that I should of been in the beta, there are several others as well who have this exact problem, the other post Lilj has the EXACT same problem, lives on the west coast, ordered prior to the cut off date, has an email saying he ordered before the cut off date, still was given no access. Same thing as me.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Sony has done the same thing apparently
http://betanews.com/2011/09/19/sony-i-wont-sign-away-my-right-to-sue/
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Ha. Bagstone.
Evil.
Always.
Boycott them whenever you get the chance..
They killed bullfrog, rainbow arts, bitmap brothers.. some of the best game companies ever.
Dead because of EA.
Author of: Random Ravings of Warcraft
Ha. Bagstone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WqwFhX6Cqg
Remembering that intro with the zeppelins going over US soil and dropping the bombs... The sirens... the paratroopers... I fell on my knees and wept.
Ha. Bagstone.