This thread was created for christians or people interested in chistianity to talk about just that
This thread is not intended to debate if God exists or anything like that. There are other threads for that.
Basically, if you're not a christian and you post in this thread, dont bash christians or the things they believe in please.
A friendly discussion of opposing christians views is totally acceptable, and is what I'm hoping this turns into.
I can't stress enough that your view on subjects in this thread need to be backed up by book, chapter and verse. Please don't take scripture out of context either.
So, I'll start us off with a topic. What do you believe baptism is for, and why does someone get baptized. Where does it stand in the plan of salvation and is it really necesary? (I'll give my view on this after the thread gets a little popularity).
EDIT: could a mod fix the thread name to "The christians thread"
What do you believe baptism is for, and why does someone get baptized. Where does it stand in the plan of salvation and is it really necesary?
I don't think that you need to be baptized to gain salvation. Most people are baptized at an early age so they don't even make the choice of if they want to accept God. I think its main purpose is symbolic in that parents are giving their child over to God.
Of course that is assuming that you are talking about baptism at an early age. Anabaptists and I think Amish people can't join the church until a certain age to make sure that it is their choice and not their parents. I think if this is the case then it has more meaning because it is your choice to accept God, not your parents, but it is still mainly symbolic.
And I don't think baptism is needed to get into Heaven because not everybody has the chance to be baptized. I don't think God will punish people who have never heard of Christianity and weren't baptized just because they were born in a remote location.
Let's save your question for later on, if you don't mind, this could get messy if we have a lot of different subjects floating around at once. Let's keep it to baptism for now. I will save your question for when I feel the baptism discussion had died.
So, continue...
What do you believe baptism is for, and why does someone get baptized. Where does it stand in the plan of salvation and is it really necesary?
I don't think that you need to be baptized to gain salvation. Most people are baptized at an early age so they don't even make the choice of if they want to accept God. I think its main purpose is symbolic in that parents are giving their child over to God.
Of course that is assuming that you are talking about baptism at an early age. Anabaptists and I think Amish people can't join the church until a certain age to make sure that it is their choice and not their parents. I think if this is the case then it has more meaning because it is your choice to accept God, not your parents, but it is still mainly symbolic.
And I don't think baptism is needed to get into Heaven because not everybody has the chance to be baptized. I don't think God will punish people who have never heard of Christianity and weren't baptized just because they were born in a remote location.
I agree with you on this. Baptism is not needed, nor is it, a means for salvation. That comes from accepting Jesus alone. I refer you to Romans 6:4, Ephesians 4:5, Colossians 2:12, I Peter 3:21. But you also have to look at the few verses proceeding and following on each. But, even though I say not need, Christians are asked, and encouraged to follow Christ in His example of Baptism.
Quote from "TwilightRealm" »
What do you believe baptism is for, and why does someone get baptized. Where does it stand in the plan of salvation and is it really necesary?
See the above response of mine for Hippo.
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Baptism from how I percieve the bible has always been to me, a symbolic representation of faith. But within the bible every account of baptism has been of an adult with knowledge of the text, or at the very least a basic knowledge with the intentions to follow God. So, I don't agree with baby baptizing according to what the bible teaches and how I interpret it.
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Considering most people who post in this thread are probably "christian" then I'm assuming I can use bible verses as facts and not have to prove the bible's validity as God's word and what a christian uses to live their life by.
I have several points, all of which lead to baptism.
I think we will both agree upon that we have to take all of God's word together to form what we believe. So here is what I believe in comparison to what you stated you believe.
I believe faith is a step in being saved from damnation and that we are saved by the grace of God. But James 2:17 states : "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
But it can be assumed that action without faith is dead, by common sense. So one must have the other.
Also, after we believe and have faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior we must repent of our sins. This can be showed in Acts 2:38 which states: "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Focus on the repent part, I will get to the baptism part (but note that baptism is essential in recieving forgiveness of sins). Repetance means turning away from the things we had been doing in sin and having a change of life by following Jesus, which is what Peter says to do.
Also, we must also confess Jesus and Lord and Savior of us. This can be seen in Matthew 10:32 which states: "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven." The King James version replaces the word "acknowledges" with "confesses" which I like a little better.
And finally one must be baptized for the remission of sins. Baptism is not sprinkling, pouring, but it is complete immersion in water. This can be seen in the example of the ethiopian eunuch ( here's a link, I don't like this version but here is that example, http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Acts+8%3A26-40) notice both go down into the water. Also, the greek word for baptism is tranlated as fully immersed, you can study that on your own.
Also on baptism, that is where we contact the blood of Jesus perse. It is a personal death of the old man you once were for the remission of sins. The act of baptism is dying (under th water), burial (under the water), and resurection (back out of the water). Here are some other verses to show that baptism is in fact what saves us from our sins. It's not the water, it's our obedience to God of being baptized for the right reasons.
Acts 22:16 states: Be baptized and wash away your sins.
I Peter 3:21 states: Baptism also now saves us.
Moving on... I believe we can fall away from the grace of God. There are many scriptures to show this to be true.
Hebrews 6:4-10 warns against falling away and states:
That's not to say once we fall away from the grace we can't recieve forgiveness again. Because we ask God in our prayers to forgive us of our sins once we become a christian. (Scripture to back this up 1st John 1:9) (MANY MORE TO SHOW THIS)
Romans 6:1-5 is a great passage just to comment on the above.
That's what I believe in comparison to you guys, I hope you see my point of veiw. And this is a friendly conversation so please feel free to express your opinions, thoughts, comments, questions, or anyhting on the subject of baptism/salvation.
With christian love, TwilightRealm
P.S. I did a lot of cutting a pasting, as Nektu will know lol. (Nektu, the pm i sent you is in the right order so yeah... I used a lot from that pm in this post as you can see). I think everything is in the order I want to portray it.
EDIT: the Romans 6:1-5 link is just Romans 6:1... Just grab your bibles and read the verses I have throughout my post with your bible, it's easier that way. Unless the link is examples of concepts and not just verses. Plus, it's always best to read a little before and a little after each of the sets of verses to get the right context of what is going on.
Hey, I have a question or two that can only be answered by a person and not a machine. I've been using online bible searches but searching using keywords just doesn't work in this case.
Is there a verse or chapter in the bible that describes of a situation where God or Jesus is thanking someone? Like, has anyone ever done something good to God or Jesus as a sort of favour, as opposed to obeying an order?
Also, how exactly does God or Jesus respond when someone does something good for him? Does he just thank them? Promise them something in return?
I'm not trying to be a smartass here, I just haven't read the bible to know the words exactly. I've only heard the stories retold to me verbally, so there could be some misrepresentations along the way. And I don't know where to look for these chapters if I were to just browse the bible.
From what I can think of on the top of my head, God is usually just pleased. But, since Jesus was God in the flesh (many verses to prove this) and he had human emotions when he was on earth, I like the story of when Lazarus died and Jesus wept. Jesus raised him from the dead he loved him so much.
There is the story of Enoch (maybe Elijah, starts with an E) who was so faithful to God that God took him from earth into heaven (Enoch/Elijah [not same person ill have to find which it was] didn't have to face mortal death).
On many ocasions you can find verses where God is pleased with people. The account of Melchezadek (prolly spelled wrong lol, use ur phonix and sound it out) is pretty cool to read about, in the book of Hebrews.
God made Abraham the "father" of many nations. (found in prolly Genesis)
God promised the land of Canaan to the israelites. (prolly exodous, yeah almost certain in Exodus)
I'll put more detailed (book/chapter/verse) scriptures to these when I have more time.
Acts 22:16 states: Be baptized and wash away your sins.
You forgot the last part which is the important part:
"Calling on His name." In reference to Jesus.
I Peter 3:21 states: Baptism also now saves us.
"and this water symbolizes baptism, that now saves you also- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
Ephesians 2:8-9
Baptism can not save you alone, it is also the acceptance of Jesus as Savior. With out the resurrection of Jesus, baptism means nothing.
Moving on... I believe we can fall away from the grace of God. There are many scriptures to show this to be true.
Hebrews 6:4-10 warns against falling away and states:
Hebrew 6:4-10 is a warning to not fall away, yes. But did Jesus die once for sins, or does he die over and over again? I say once. Hebrews 10:5-10.
And I refer you to Romans 8:38-39.
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I never said baptism alone saves you, I said that it is a step in saving you.
Baptism washes your sins away, ultimately Christ does that.
You have to believe Christ is Lord, Repent of your sins, Confess Jesus as Lord and be baptized, those are the steps to become a christian and have your sins washed away.
Jesus only died once for everyone's sins yes. But, if you sin after you become a chrstian (saved) then you must ask for forgiveness. I think you need to re-read my post, more specifically the PM i sent you, it's worded better.
Jesus did it and since you should be 'Christ-like' you would follow what he did and taught. So therefore as a Christian (Christ-like) you should probably get baptized as a promise to yourself and those around you that you intend to follow Christ
And then there's those verses about being baptized in fire/the holy spirit, and I can't remember where they are
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Yes, Jesus was baptized, and he did that to "fulfill all righteousness" (Matthew 3:15). Plus, he was instituting a new baptism, from "John baptism" (not meaning John being baptized, but the actual baptism John instituted But Jesus had no sin, he was God in the flesh (John 10:30 and John 14:9 are two many examples to prove this), yet every aspect of him was human (save having sin). Sure, he did miracles to prove he was who he said he was, but he had all the same emotions and feelings as everyone else.
So, since baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38 as well as many other scriptures, see post on page 1 of this thread) and to be born again, your old man dies (sinful man), and you are born again in Jesus as a new creature in Christ.
There are countless accounts of christians who fell away in the bible, which proves that just because you are saved doesn't mean you can't fall away.
teachings on this through scripture:
"Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called 'Today', lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." Hebrews 3:12-13
"Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? ..." Hebrews 2:1-3
"Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore, let him who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall." I Corinthians 10:11-12
Also, Paul once he became a christian from his erring ways of persecuting the church, said:
"But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." I Corinthians 9:27
If the apostle Paul had not achieved a state of permanent perseverance, then how can we expect to remove ourselves from the danger of becoming "disqualified"? Shortly after writing this statement, Paul warned the Corinthians with the statement, "Let him who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall."
In addition to these warnings, the New Testament contains examples of other Christians who actually did fall from the faith. The Christians at Galatia had succumbed to a false doctrine that was rampant during the early New Testament era. This doctrine involved binding parts of the obsolete Old Testament, such as circumcision. Consequently, the apostle Paul cautioned the Christians in Galatia that they had actually fallen away by accepting this false doctrine.
"You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace." Galatians 5:4
Not only had the Galatian Christians become apostate, they had become apostate by what may seem to us a small thing. This is a lesson to us about God's judgment upon those that add to, or take away from His Word.
Besides this example, the Scriptures contain other cases of individuals who were overcome by sin and no longer in fellowship with God. The following statement was issued by the apostle Peter to a new convert, Simon, who had just recently sinned:
"Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity." Acts 8:22-23
"... Having faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, of whom are Hymaenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme." I Timothy 1:19-20
In this last passage, we learn of two Christians that had suffered spiritual "shipwreck". From these cases, we can understand that Christians can and do indeed sin so that they may fall away, and no longer be in relationship with God. How severe is this separation? From the passage in Galatians 5:4bible:Galatians5.4%7Cres=LLS:NKJV"], we discover that they had actually become "estranged from Christ". This is a terrible condition because only those who are "in Christ" will be saved (Galatians 3:26-27bible:Galatians3.26-27%7Cres=LLS:NKJV"]; Ephesians 1:3-7bible:Ephesians1.3-7%7Cres=LLS:NKJV"]). Therefore, one can and will forfeit salvation by practicing sin or by adopting false doctrines.
EDIT: just to clarify on baptism a little more, it does save us from our sins, but what good is it if we don't believe or repent or confess? If you don't get baptized for the right reasons you go into the water and come back up out of it a wet sinner. You have to beleive, repent, confess, and be baptized, and live a faithful life from there. If you sin, you pray and ask God for forgiveness for your trespass.
EDIT2: MORE CLARIFICATION
The Good News
While the Bible does teach that we can fall from grace, it does not teach that this condition must be permanent. The entire book of Galatians is evidence to this fact. The book was written to encourage and call to repentance those who had become "estranged from Christ". So, what are we to do if we find ourselves in this condition? The Bible teaches a clear course of action for any and every sin:
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." I John 1:9
The verse corresponds with the instruction that we examined earlier, which was given to the new covert, Simon.
"Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity." Acts 8:22-23
These passages teach a clear promise from God: If we will but simply confess and repent of our sins through prayer, then God will forgive us. However, this process of repentance towards forgiveness should not be confused with the initial conversion process. In each of these cases, the people given the above instructions were already Christians. The Bible teaches a different plan for salvation for becoming a Christian and receiving the initial forgiveness of sins.
Isaiah 40:24
No sooner are they planted, no sooner are they sown, no sooner do they take root in the ground, than he blows on them and they wither, and a whirlwind sweeps them away like chaff.
This thread is not intended to debate if God exists or anything like that. There are other threads for that.
Basically, if you're not a christian and you post in this thread, dont bash christians or the things they believe in please.
A friendly discussion of opposing christians views is totally acceptable, and is what I'm hoping this turns into.
I can't stress enough that your view on subjects in this thread need to be backed up by book, chapter and verse. Please don't take scripture out of context either.
So, I'll start us off with a topic. What do you believe baptism is for, and why does someone get baptized. Where does it stand in the plan of salvation and is it really necesary? (I'll give my view on this after the thread gets a little popularity).
EDIT: could a mod fix the thread name to "The christians thread"
Thanks
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It reads hhristians.
Of course that is assuming that you are talking about baptism at an early age. Anabaptists and I think Amish people can't join the church until a certain age to make sure that it is their choice and not their parents. I think if this is the case then it has more meaning because it is your choice to accept God, not your parents, but it is still mainly symbolic.
And I don't think baptism is needed to get into Heaven because not everybody has the chance to be baptized. I don't think God will punish people who have never heard of Christianity and weren't baptized just because they were born in a remote location.
So, continue...
What do you believe baptism is for, and why does someone get baptized. Where does it stand in the plan of salvation and is it really necesary?
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I agree with you on this. Baptism is not needed, nor is it, a means for salvation. That comes from accepting Jesus alone. I refer you to Romans 6:4, Ephesians 4:5, Colossians 2:12, I Peter 3:21. But you also have to look at the few verses proceeding and following on each. But, even though I say not need, Christians are asked, and encouraged to follow Christ in His example of Baptism.
See the above response of mine for Hippo.
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I have several points, all of which lead to baptism.
I think we will both agree upon that we have to take all of God's word together to form what we believe. So here is what I believe in comparison to what you stated you believe.
I believe faith is a step in being saved from damnation and that we are saved by the grace of God. But James 2:17 states : "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
But it can be assumed that action without faith is dead, by common sense. So one must have the other.
Also, after we believe and have faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior we must repent of our sins. This can be showed in Acts 2:38 which states: "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Focus on the repent part, I will get to the baptism part (but note that baptism is essential in recieving forgiveness of sins). Repetance means turning away from the things we had been doing in sin and having a change of life by following Jesus, which is what Peter says to do.
Also, we must also confess Jesus and Lord and Savior of us. This can be seen in Matthew 10:32 which states: "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven." The King James version replaces the word "acknowledges" with "confesses" which I like a little better.
And finally one must be baptized for the remission of sins. Baptism is not sprinkling, pouring, but it is complete immersion in water. This can be seen in the example of the ethiopian eunuch ( here's a link, I don't like this version but here is that example, http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Acts+8%3A26-40) notice both go down into the water. Also, the greek word for baptism is tranlated as fully immersed, you can study that on your own.
Also on baptism, that is where we contact the blood of Jesus perse. It is a personal death of the old man you once were for the remission of sins. The act of baptism is dying (under th water), burial (under the water), and resurection (back out of the water). Here are some other verses to show that baptism is in fact what saves us from our sins. It's not the water, it's our obedience to God of being baptized for the right reasons.
Acts 22:16 states: Be baptized and wash away your sins.
I Peter 3:21 states: Baptism also now saves us.
Moving on... I believe we can fall away from the grace of God. There are many scriptures to show this to be true.
Hebrews 6:4-10 warns against falling away and states:
http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?passage=Hebrews+6%3A4-10
(you can read from your bible if you prefer, cause i dont like that translation the best, but w/e)
Also there are so many examples of falling away from the grace of God this site does a great job at showing some examples: http://www.thegospeltruth.us/BACKSLIDING%20OR%20FALLING%20FROM%20GRACE.html
That's not to say once we fall away from the grace we can't recieve forgiveness again. Because we ask God in our prayers to forgive us of our sins once we become a christian. (Scripture to back this up 1st John 1:9) (MANY MORE TO SHOW THIS)
Romans 6:1-5 is a great passage just to comment on the above.
Romans 6:1-5 states: http://bible.cc/romans/6-1.htm
That's what I believe in comparison to you guys, I hope you see my point of veiw. And this is a friendly conversation so please feel free to express your opinions, thoughts, comments, questions, or anyhting on the subject of baptism/salvation.
With christian love, TwilightRealm
P.S. I did a lot of cutting a pasting, as Nektu will know lol. (Nektu, the pm i sent you is in the right order so yeah... I used a lot from that pm in this post as you can see). I think everything is in the order I want to portray it.
EDIT: the Romans 6:1-5 link is just Romans 6:1... Just grab your bibles and read the verses I have throughout my post with your bible, it's easier that way. Unless the link is examples of concepts and not just verses. Plus, it's always best to read a little before and a little after each of the sets of verses to get the right context of what is going on.
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Is there a verse or chapter in the bible that describes of a situation where God or Jesus is thanking someone? Like, has anyone ever done something good to God or Jesus as a sort of favour, as opposed to obeying an order?
Also, how exactly does God or Jesus respond when someone does something good for him? Does he just thank them? Promise them something in return?
I'm not trying to be a smartass here, I just haven't read the bible to know the words exactly. I've only heard the stories retold to me verbally, so there could be some misrepresentations along the way. And I don't know where to look for these chapters if I were to just browse the bible.
From what I can think of on the top of my head, God is usually just pleased. But, since Jesus was God in the flesh (many verses to prove this) and he had human emotions when he was on earth, I like the story of when Lazarus died and Jesus wept. Jesus raised him from the dead he loved him so much.
There is the story of Enoch (maybe Elijah, starts with an E) who was so faithful to God that God took him from earth into heaven (Enoch/Elijah [not same person ill have to find which it was] didn't have to face mortal death).
On many ocasions you can find verses where God is pleased with people. The account of Melchezadek (prolly spelled wrong lol, use ur phonix and sound it out) is pretty cool to read about, in the book of Hebrews.
God made Abraham the "father" of many nations. (found in prolly Genesis)
God promised the land of Canaan to the israelites. (prolly exodous, yeah almost certain in Exodus)
I'll put more detailed (book/chapter/verse) scriptures to these when I have more time.
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You forgot the last part which is the important part:
"Calling on His name." In reference to Jesus.
"and this water symbolizes baptism, that now saves you also- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
Ephesians 2:8-9
Baptism can not save you alone, it is also the acceptance of Jesus as Savior. With out the resurrection of Jesus, baptism means nothing.
Hebrew 6:4-10 is a warning to not fall away, yes. But did Jesus die once for sins, or does he die over and over again? I say once. Hebrews 10:5-10.
And I refer you to Romans 8:38-39.
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Baptism washes your sins away, ultimately Christ does that.
You have to believe Christ is Lord, Repent of your sins, Confess Jesus as Lord and be baptized, those are the steps to become a christian and have your sins washed away.
Jesus only died once for everyone's sins yes. But, if you sin after you become a chrstian (saved) then you must ask for forgiveness. I think you need to re-read my post, more specifically the PM i sent you, it's worded better.
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Jesus did it and since you should be 'Christ-like' you would follow what he did and taught. So therefore as a Christian (Christ-like) you should probably get baptized as a promise to yourself and those around you that you intend to follow Christ
And then there's those verses about being baptized in fire/the holy spirit, and I can't remember where they are
So, since baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38 as well as many other scriptures, see post on page 1 of this thread) and to be born again, your old man dies (sinful man), and you are born again in Jesus as a new creature in Christ.
There are countless accounts of christians who fell away in the bible, which proves that just because you are saved doesn't mean you can't fall away.
teachings on this through scripture:
unzip, strip, touch, finger, grep, mount, fsck, more, yes, fsck, fsck, fsck, umount, sleep
Isaiah 40:24
No sooner are they planted, no sooner are they sown, no sooner do they take root in the ground, than he blows on them and they wither, and a whirlwind sweeps them away like chaff.
It deals with God's supremacy as judge and ruler over the "kings", or rulers, of this world.
Because then in verse 25 it says; "To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?" says the Holy One.(referring to God)
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And, I still am wondering where you find scripture to support that baptism is an an outward show of an inward feeling.
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