@Doppel
I see you don't like Sacred 2. First of all, it's not a clone (if you want to discuss that, you can make a thread about it, don't start a debate here). Regarding it as a clone is what prevents Diablo fans from liking it. They expect Diablo 2.0 and get something completely different.
Anyway, quests in S2 are not something I consider crucially important to the game. But things such as "get to level x" or "get x item" or "kill monster" don't really motivate me. Completion (my form of OCD) does. Without quests, there's no completion. You don't need completion. But I like to see the green circles. It's that simple.
Diablo quests were always too much part of the main direction. They didn't really feel like quests, more like stuff to do for the main road. There really isn't anywhere to go in Diablo besides forward so it didn't really matter. It's not a comparable situation in the first place.
Quests may or may not be meaningless. Some quests in S2 were interesting lore wise, some weren't. Some were just plain funny. And some gave you monsters to kill in an area that you were already planning to explore. In general, they add liveliness, you have people asking you to do random stuff for them, and while it's not expressed in the game, you could feel a bit of "Hey I helped everyone in this region they're going to love me now". But again, that's me. That's obviously not you.
P.S. Your comparison of TA as superior to DoW is misjudged. You like TA more than DoW for personal reasons, but which one of them is better is quite debatable, and a game is not better than the other just because it follows typical RTS tendencies (which I am sick and tired of by now).
If you would be so kind as to explain why such a thing is considered to be bad?
He clearly explains his points in that post. If a point needs elaborating or further discussion beoynd a simple yes or no, he does so. Personally I couldn't have said it better. Though I might have left out some of the parts about the disccussion about dumb and/or intelligent people and just stuck to the topic at hand. Quests.
Well, a game without quests being meaningless might be ones opinion, yet even if it is its simply wrong, there are numerous games that do not have anything to do with quests, storyline, etc... So they are all considered to be meaningless? Thats just a ridiculous conclusion.
Personally i love well-thought out (side)quests in roleplaying games, but then i expect to have quests which are actually better then the complete moronic boredom you had in say a game like Oblivion and i expect the game to actually be a roleplaying game where you can make choices as to what sort of character you become (choices where "fighting" is but one of them, thus again ruling out games like Oblivion/Sacred 2), else don't even bother. Maybe a hack&slash with well thought out questing could very well work, but i have yet to see one thats actually better then your average "do this, do that", which i obviously do not want in Diablo. I would love to see some random quests return as in D1, but don't over flood the player with them just because you lack the imagination and talent to make one good one. Diablo never was about questing, Diablo is about creating numerous hack&slash characters.
What you describe is awfully reminescient of the various computerised Dungeons and Dragons games, namely Baldur's Gate II. Often in some ofthe larger quests which more often that not require you to infiltrate a cultist lair or somekind and discover their activities, you are given the choice of directly storming the place and killing anything with a pulse (and on the odd occasion stuff without a pulse (Undead)), or you can try to use a more stealthy approach an pretend to be a member. The latter usually provide you with more quests and items. Both are adequette ways of dealing with the situation.
Personally I go with the latter in the above instance.
Random quests are what maketh the game IMHO. To take the example of Baldur's Gate II again, there is nothing like stumbling acroos a blood soaked street littered with the rotting (and more importantly skinless) corpses, only to find out that the seemingly simple case of a serial killer offing a few bums is actually a much more deeper, darker case of something rivalling Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs. The event is totally random, you just happen upon it.
Actually almost all of the 300 (err maybe it's more like 400, 400, 500? let's just say 400 and call it even, ok) or so quests in that game are side quests and very few are ever really forced upon you. And the ones that are, you kinda have to actually go to the place the NPC is and be with a certain radius of them. You can walk passed them and not get the quest.
I am not saying Blizzard should emulate Baldur's Gate, but in regards to quests it's certainly a well thought out game. Even the mindless generic "fex-ex" and "grindfest" quests don't seem as boring, mostly because the NPC never explicitly tells you how many things he needs or how many creatures he needs to to kill. Do so always makes it more boring I feel. Seems Blizz got that down pat in Diablo 1 and 2. Kill the high Council members, that was the quest, did it feel like one of the kill x amount of y quests that so plague WOW, nope. You knew you had to kill all 6 of them, but no where did it actually say there was 6 of them nor did it list each member and preceed their name with the 0/1, like such a quest would have in WOW (or all MMO's not sure haven't played many).
But then again there was only 6 of them, Not like in the Den of Evil quest. Which it seems did the reverse. It told you directly how many you had left to kill (so long as it was 10 or less) rather than telling you exactly how many you had killed.
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Baldurs Gate did it well by not giving you the proverbial exclamation mark, like you said you actually have to find some quests, or just have some sort of luck, they surely aren't simply to be picked off of a menu card, and others just depend on how you play/what character you are or what party members you have with you. (which is also a nice touch, namely many quests coming from your partymembers in what feels like regular dialogue)
I vaguely remember a semi-quests/situation where i ended up in the basement of some madman summoning a horrific beast (it was within the city of baldurs gate in BG2, in the slums/market place i belief). Result? I was not even near powerful enough to slay the summoned beast and i should've taken hints before i ended up in that dreaded place.
The game (Diablo) would have to change dtrastically for it to incorporate good questing like that and it might affect the pure hack&slashing in a bad way.
I am tired of the way they give you exclamation points.
I kind of wouldn't mind, ideally, if the concept of "quest" as separate entity wasn't there to begin with. One thing that really pisses me off with quests is that you come to some area, kill a few monsters there, and move to a different area, and he's like "kill those monsters!" (the ones you've just killed). Very low AI here.
It would be cool (and I think this CAN work for Diablo) if "quest" wasn't really there. More like, you'd meet people, and they would tell you things. And you may have a log of those things, just as you have logs of dialogues. And a guy could be like "I wish I had this sword... I lost it when I went to this tower" but there isn't a quest per se, more like you're aware that sometime, some guy lost a sword near some tower. It's in your log. But it's not going to tell you if the sword is even findable. Then you find a sword and you can keep it to yourself or give it to the guy, maybe it's not even his lol. Or maybe you find a sword and you talk to this guy and he notices it and says that's the sword he lost some time ago. And if you give him the sword he likes you better and will tell you more about himself. This is sort of like the CORPG standard, but they often lack the multi-layed structure of it, and they bore me with their combat.
Also, I think Elfen brings up an interesting point. Less numbers. Nobody in life would tell you "kill 10 imps". More like "clear that area so that it's safe". And then you could kill like 90% of it or aka Den of Evil quest.
Quote from "Doppelganger" »
The game (Diablo) would have to change dtrastically for it to incorporate good questing like that and it might affect the pure hack&slashing in a bad way.
They should leave Diablo questing sort of the way it was and concentrate on making the few quests that Diablo contains worthwhile, and perhaps not mandatory.
Quote from "Doppelganger" »
Asfar as strategy games go though, Total Annihilation (and many others) blows DOW2 out of the water for the simple fact that DOW2 doesn't have any whatsoever. Maybe you personally like not having strategy in your strategy games? dunno.
I didn't play TA and only played a bit of DoW1, so I can't say much about strategy here. Strategy is usually composed of options and balancing, adding or removing heroes affects strategy depending on how it was added or removed. I can't say that I like or dislike strategy in my strategy games, I like many things in all sorts of games and I don't apply genre restrictions, I accept the game as it is and iether take it or leave it. Comparing games rarely works well.
I believe that's what Oblivion was OUGHT to be but failed to be. Requires a lot of processing power to calculate outcomes, but I don't think it's impossible at all. I am afraid we shouldn't hope for this in Diablo III, although considering the big difference between DI and DII in features, it is sort of possible... but Hack&Slashes seem to avoid improving the questing experience for some reason. I think a mix of Diablo, Sacred, and Baldur's Gate would be awesome. Someone should go make that.
I'm a little OCD too, blood-doll, so I get the urge to complete everything in a game as well. Its really annoying when there is a nearly limitless number of quests to complete, lol.
I just wish there were multiple ways of completing quests. Like, instead of getting revenge for Atma by defeating Radament, I could just council Atma and help her get over the loss of her family. Quest complete.
For me. Quests is something that I can get exp from (talking about WoW) or I can get some kick ass equipment. I have to agree with the others though, when they say it adds to the storyline.
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Wow, I agree pretty much. I enjoy questing to some degree, and by that I mean if the end reward is worth it to me in terms of experience or items. I'm not interested in questing just to see a visually cool looking monsters with acne ridden prepubescent children. I think questing is entirely too prominent in online multiplayer gaming. I want to level, find good items, occasionally quest when it's worth it to my character, and most importantly pwn n00bs. I enjoy the lore of the Diablo series and I wish they could find a way to develop the story with less questing than say in a game like WoW (which with the limited information we have seems to be the general direction they're headed with questing), I think the amount of quests in D2 was just about perfect although I'd like to not repeat each quest as I progress through the varying difficulty settings. Questing isn't bad until it gets ridiculous like in games like WoW but it certaintly is in no way, to my mind, the highlight of the games. PVP OR BUST! NOOBS BEWARE!
While I do like questing to some degree, too much of it feels like work. Not to mention the quests that give you crap rewards (I'm looking at you WoW...)
I want a game that can analyze the stuff I have on me and then say "Hey, she just spent an hour completing this quest and she has level 5 gear, and she is level 6. Lets give her level 8 gear so she can use that until then.
They just have to remember to make the level 8 gear better than all of the gear level 5 had to offer. Know what I mean or does this make no sense? lol.
What you're talking about environment adjusting to player. Which is a very dangerous mechanic, although Sacred II somehow managed to implement it incredibly well (so far when I'm level 45 Shadow Warrior, that is).
Bu in Diablo it isn't, and shouldn't happen. Diablo is linear and, usually, you are at the same pace as your environment is. I believe the environment should be preprogrammed as for the player that completed every inch of a dungeon and benefited from every single item and monster. That way, the careful ones will be even with the game, and the rushers will have a challenge.
In DI, all the quests usually actually gave you stuff you could use. With Blood Raven or other quests, I don't remember that happening. Maybe I came there too late, but that's what I want them to fix.
this thread, with all the responses, has helped me demystify the situation..
instead of viewing myself in opposition to the masses of gamers that all are jumping for joy at every new ! that presents itself, i understand that you guys don't like every quest.
the quality and context is just as important to most of you as it is to me.
i can agree with those that like quests that the quests that are directly related to the main story are important and necessary, and they're the ones i don't mind.
i can understand that some people want their goals defined for them
i can understand that some people want more side story quests so that the game is more meaningful to them.
i can (sort of) understand that some people want TONS of quests or even unlimited so that the game feels longer or more in depth
i think most of you that do like quests can agree with me that poorly thought out quests (such as "go get x of these" or "go escort this fool" or other boring and meaningless tasks) that have little or nothing to do with the story and that don't provide good rewards are more of a chore than they are fun.
and i have a little more faith based on some comments and pms that d3 will have more of the kind of quests that i tolerate or enjoy rather than the boring and meaningless type.
(except you greg, you're freaking me out again -_-)
as for multiple ways of completing a quest like altrumentis suggested, that would be cool.. maybe even different rewards for the different routes.. but i'd only want that kind of thing to be for impermanent rewards (temporary gear etc) otherwise the choices would become agonizing for me.
i think i agree with equinox that quests with level/character dependent rewards might not work so well in d3.. but it's a cool idea (didn't know sacred 2 had it)
what if you didn't do the quest until end game though? like just saved all the rewards until they would be the best possible?
edit: btw completing the blood raven quest gave you a merc.. which was an awesome reward if you did it before completing act 1
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they'll never see me coming.. life is a sequence of tragedies, inconsistent only by fleeting, elusive moments of pleasure,
serving only to ensure absolute vulnerability to the pain of their inevitable absence.
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I see you don't like Sacred 2. First of all, it's not a clone (if you want to discuss that, you can make a thread about it, don't start a debate here). Regarding it as a clone is what prevents Diablo fans from liking it. They expect Diablo 2.0 and get something completely different.
Anyway, quests in S2 are not something I consider crucially important to the game. But things such as "get to level x" or "get x item" or "kill monster" don't really motivate me. Completion (my form of OCD) does. Without quests, there's no completion. You don't need completion. But I like to see the green circles. It's that simple.
Diablo quests were always too much part of the main direction. They didn't really feel like quests, more like stuff to do for the main road. There really isn't anywhere to go in Diablo besides forward so it didn't really matter. It's not a comparable situation in the first place.
Quests may or may not be meaningless. Some quests in S2 were interesting lore wise, some weren't. Some were just plain funny. And some gave you monsters to kill in an area that you were already planning to explore. In general, they add liveliness, you have people asking you to do random stuff for them, and while it's not expressed in the game, you could feel a bit of "Hey I helped everyone in this region they're going to love me now". But again, that's me. That's obviously not you.
P.S. Your comparison of TA as superior to DoW is misjudged. You like TA more than DoW for personal reasons, but which one of them is better is quite debatable, and a game is not better than the other just because it follows typical RTS tendencies (which I am sick and tired of by now).
If you would be so kind as to explain why such a thing is considered to be bad?
He clearly explains his points in that post. If a point needs elaborating or further discussion beoynd a simple yes or no, he does so. Personally I couldn't have said it better. Though I might have left out some of the parts about the disccussion about dumb and/or intelligent people and just stuck to the topic at hand. Quests.
What you describe is awfully reminescient of the various computerised Dungeons and Dragons games, namely Baldur's Gate II. Often in some ofthe larger quests which more often that not require you to infiltrate a cultist lair or somekind and discover their activities, you are given the choice of directly storming the place and killing anything with a pulse (and on the odd occasion stuff without a pulse (Undead)), or you can try to use a more stealthy approach an pretend to be a member. The latter usually provide you with more quests and items. Both are adequette ways of dealing with the situation.
Personally I go with the latter in the above instance.
Random quests are what maketh the game IMHO. To take the example of Baldur's Gate II again, there is nothing like stumbling acroos a blood soaked street littered with the rotting (and more importantly skinless) corpses, only to find out that the seemingly simple case of a serial killer offing a few bums is actually a much more deeper, darker case of something rivalling Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs. The event is totally random, you just happen upon it.
Actually almost all of the 300 (err maybe it's more like 400, 400, 500? let's just say 400 and call it even, ok) or so quests in that game are side quests and very few are ever really forced upon you. And the ones that are, you kinda have to actually go to the place the NPC is and be with a certain radius of them. You can walk passed them and not get the quest.
I am not saying Blizzard should emulate Baldur's Gate, but in regards to quests it's certainly a well thought out game. Even the mindless generic "fex-ex" and "grindfest" quests don't seem as boring, mostly because the NPC never explicitly tells you how many things he needs or how many creatures he needs to to kill. Do so always makes it more boring I feel. Seems Blizz got that down pat in Diablo 1 and 2. Kill the high Council members, that was the quest, did it feel like one of the kill x amount of y quests that so plague WOW, nope. You knew you had to kill all 6 of them, but no where did it actually say there was 6 of them nor did it list each member and preceed their name with the 0/1, like such a quest would have in WOW (or all MMO's not sure haven't played many).
But then again there was only 6 of them, Not like in the Den of Evil quest. Which it seems did the reverse. It told you directly how many you had left to kill (so long as it was 10 or less) rather than telling you exactly how many you had killed.
I am tired of the way they give you exclamation points.
It would be cool (and I think this CAN work for Diablo) if "quest" wasn't really there. More like, you'd meet people, and they would tell you things. And you may have a log of those things, just as you have logs of dialogues. And a guy could be like "I wish I had this sword... I lost it when I went to this tower" but there isn't a quest per se, more like you're aware that sometime, some guy lost a sword near some tower. It's in your log. But it's not going to tell you if the sword is even findable. Then you find a sword and you can keep it to yourself or give it to the guy, maybe it's not even his lol. Or maybe you find a sword and you talk to this guy and he notices it and says that's the sword he lost some time ago. And if you give him the sword he likes you better and will tell you more about himself. This is sort of like the CORPG standard, but they often lack the multi-layed structure of it, and they bore me with their combat.
Also, I think Elfen brings up an interesting point. Less numbers. Nobody in life would tell you "kill 10 imps". More like "clear that area so that it's safe". And then you could kill like 90% of it or aka Den of Evil quest.
They should leave Diablo questing sort of the way it was and concentrate on making the few quests that Diablo contains worthwhile, and perhaps not mandatory.
I didn't play TA and only played a bit of DoW1, so I can't say much about strategy here. Strategy is usually composed of options and balancing, adding or removing heroes affects strategy depending on how it was added or removed. I can't say that I like or dislike strategy in my strategy games, I like many things in all sorts of games and I don't apply genre restrictions, I accept the game as it is and iether take it or leave it. Comparing games rarely works well.
Will give it a try.
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I just wish there were multiple ways of completing quests. Like, instead of getting revenge for Atma by defeating Radament, I could just council Atma and help her get over the loss of her family. Quest complete.
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
I want a game that can analyze the stuff I have on me and then say "Hey, she just spent an hour completing this quest and she has level 5 gear, and she is level 6. Lets give her level 8 gear so she can use that until then.
They just have to remember to make the level 8 gear better than all of the gear level 5 had to offer. Know what I mean or does this make no sense? lol.
Bu in Diablo it isn't, and shouldn't happen. Diablo is linear and, usually, you are at the same pace as your environment is. I believe the environment should be preprogrammed as for the player that completed every inch of a dungeon and benefited from every single item and monster. That way, the careful ones will be even with the game, and the rushers will have a challenge.
In DI, all the quests usually actually gave you stuff you could use. With Blood Raven or other quests, I don't remember that happening. Maybe I came there too late, but that's what I want them to fix.
Social Networking Site for Gamers: http://www.gamerzee.com
instead of viewing myself in opposition to the masses of gamers that all are jumping for joy at every new ! that presents itself, i understand that you guys don't like every quest.
the quality and context is just as important to most of you as it is to me.
i can agree with those that like quests that the quests that are directly related to the main story are important and necessary, and they're the ones i don't mind.
i can understand that some people want their goals defined for them
i can understand that some people want more side story quests so that the game is more meaningful to them.
i can (sort of) understand that some people want TONS of quests or even unlimited so that the game feels longer or more in depth
i think most of you that do like quests can agree with me that poorly thought out quests (such as "go get x of these" or "go escort this fool" or other boring and meaningless tasks) that have little or nothing to do with the story and that don't provide good rewards are more of a chore than they are fun.
and i have a little more faith based on some comments and pms that d3 will have more of the kind of quests that i tolerate or enjoy rather than the boring and meaningless type.
(except you greg, you're freaking me out again -_-)
as for multiple ways of completing a quest like altrumentis suggested, that would be cool.. maybe even different rewards for the different routes.. but i'd only want that kind of thing to be for impermanent rewards (temporary gear etc) otherwise the choices would become agonizing for me.
i think i agree with equinox that quests with level/character dependent rewards might not work so well in d3.. but it's a cool idea (didn't know sacred 2 had it)
what if you didn't do the quest until end game though? like just saved all the rewards until they would be the best possible?
edit: btw completing the blood raven quest gave you a merc.. which was an awesome reward if you did it before completing act 1
they'll never see me coming..
life is a sequence of tragedies, inconsistent only by fleeting, elusive moments of pleasure,
serving only to ensure absolute vulnerability to the pain of their inevitable absence.