I read the entire thing. I think there are more complicated reasoning behind boy girl relationships but so far I can't come up with anything to refute this interesting article. A girl told me about it today as we were talking about the "friend zone". She mentioned the theory on the friend ladder.
If you have any distinct criticisms make sure you read the whole thing because the guy addresses a lot of criticisms people make.
My problem with it is that it seems a bit shady because after reading personal information the creator posted it makes you want to brush off the idea because he is clearly biased and seems that he may have had a few bad relationships lol. In other words, there is some serious bias...But then again, the theory is still definitely intriguing.
But from what I have been reading and learning I have concluded that it is true, for the most part there is a difference between what kind of guy a girl says she wants and what she really wants. After reflecting a bit.....the ladder theory seems to have some stability lol...Can anyone find any real flaw? I havn't examined it too much to identify any flaws, nor have I discussed it with any psychology buffs. What do you think?
Oh, my only criticism is about wealth, I'm not sure that is something so objective that it can be said that all girls want a man with wealth or power. But maybe.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
The first problem with this ladder is that it's absolutely non-academic and based purely on that guy's experience and opinion. With consulting that ladder, you are being subject to his possibly lies and his [Interpersonal (other people)] intelligence. This doesn't make him neither wrong or right, but that's something to keep in mind.
In fact, most of his stuff is "thinking aloud". That's what my research papers look like.
Furthermore, the excessive swearing and namecalling used in the project may mean that he was emotional while writing this.
And, the fact that he categorizes people as smart, ugly, and uses those factors to basically divide people into good and bad shows his lack of wisdom.
And, honestly, I have no idea what age group this applies to. Rich and Powerful is not something that applies to college students. "Ugly" is a rather meh concept for adults, on the contrary, while being extremely important to teenagers. And sex occurs scatteredly on the age interval as well. In truth, he needs to write different theories for diferent groups and divisions. Instead, he put them all into one big stack, making them void. You can only guess and assume who is he talking about on this page or another.
The ladder is also very strongly USA based. In USSR, none of this would apply at all since some concepts don't even exist. This makes the study also pretty uninteresting since that would indicate all those statements he's making are based on culture and society, e.g., variables.
His ladder is concentrated on a large group of people who use purely heuristic judgment in regards to others... yes, that group is huge, but that's not the whole population. Unfortunately for him, he belongs in that group, and can't really judge above it.
While I may sort of agree regarding his analysis of how people judge people when they first see them, I do not agree that that judgment defines anything at all. There are people who look twice, there are people who defeat their psychology.
I'm pretty sure I'm in the Abyss according to this ladder... lol
P.S.: I told Ray "You're so nice." about 300 times and he was a lot more than a friend. I also asked him to help with my summer calculus assignment. This generalization is so ridiculously narrow and biased it makes the whole ladder theory look stupid.
I agree, i said the same thing in my post without saying that much lol..didn't feel like pointing it out.
I said "My problem with it is that it seems a bit shady because after reading personal information the creator posted it makes you want to brush off the idea because he is clearly biased and seems that he may have had a few bad relationships lol. In other words, there is some serious bias...But then again, the theory is still definitely intriguing."
I agree completely that this form of the theory is tooo biased and the writer is obviously no friend of academia(although he does reference Keats lol) but i think out of all of his anger and bitterness toward women he was on to something lol..
The basic ideas of the theory i mean, in my opinion, are almost there. After a bit of though, i think the "ladder" structure is way too simple to use for the human psyche because there are more than one driving factor for human relationships and how we size others up.
I think if we put the theory into a set of "pools" rather than ladders and factor in a bit of psychology it would be a pretty solid idea lol....
Your in the abyss?!?!?! that sucks! Im on the good ladder with the girl im trying to get with..but a bit low on the ladder..according to the theory lol.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
The reason probably 99% of men will agree with this theory is because most have seen it in action....
All guys, upon first encounter with women picture them naked consciously or subconsciously...Most know this.
And about the girl with tons of guy friends...usually the guys just want to bend them over.
That is also usually true.
I would testify that I don't want to bend my very close (girl) friend over a table but...I am looking to get with somebody I am more interested in. And also...I kinda would do her too lol....But thats not why I am friends with her. I'm friends with her cuz she is probably one of the coolest girls I have ever met. But...on a basic level I would still umm...not mind having fun with her...It may sound crude but I'm just being honest, I would be lying if I said anything different.
Oh and the point he made about if you don't believe that most guys are like this and gives an example (ask yourself if you can truly say that if the two of you were alone and you walked out of your bathroom naked and the guy could turn you down) also has a lot of truth to it honestly...
Some form of many of these ideas should be taught to the masses lol....
AND....if you can put it in the form of a ladder without finding a kink, if the information is introduced to the masses wouldn't it make everyone try to climb to higher parts of the ladder rocket propelling our society?!?!? lol....kidding a little bit.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
It would make all the ugly girls and non-rich guys even more depressed than they already are. The last thing we need is people to teach all the kids that they're losers. This theory is extremely harmful.
Quote from "Umpa65"" »
Your in the abyss?!?!?! that sucks! Im on the good ladder with the girl im trying to get with..but a bit low on the ladder..according to the theory lol.
I believe so. I put myself there. I deleted step 3 of Maslov's Pyramid to manage the top one, lol...
Anyway, I'd agree with this ladder mostly, but for me this is just another ruleset that confuses people. Most of the time it will be true. Sometimes it wouldn't, but people who follow it would think so anyway, so they'd be depriving themselves.
Quote from "Umpa65" »
All guys, upon first encounter with women picture them naked consciously or subconsciously...Most know this.
Not just guys. And it's not a bad thing. Long ago, people didn't even wear clothes.
You also have to note that a lot of people are in a constant state of sexual deprivation, which may facilitate irregular, biological perceptions of situations... It's all very complex.
It's all about how you want to look at things. Some people just have to find a set of rules by which to live because it makes everything easy and make them feel good. Religion, bureaucratic laws (government), social conformity, or theories such as these. Others prefer to get away from defined rulesets and analyze each situation individually, creating their own specific ruleset. I don't think the ultimate ruleset that gives answers to all questions exists or can exists. I can trust certain pieces, such as separate psychology concepts like "cognitive dissonance", and I can trust theories that are backed by such concepts, but I can't trust anything that explicitly says: "This is right (high), that is wrong (low)." And that's a part of what the guy is saying. That some people are lower, worse, than others. My philosophy is that people cannot be compared, and that all comparisons are attempts to, again, put the world under one ruleset or another.
Quote from "Umpa65" »
Oh and the point he made about if you don't believe that most guys are like this and gives an example (ask yourself if you can truly say that if the two of you were alone and you walked out of your bathroom naked and the guy could turn you down) also has a lot of truth to it honestly...
I honestly do not see how does that indicate anything if we brush away social constraints. Having sex does not destroy or remove friendship, unless you think so. Sex is not an expression of love, either.
I have many female friends, some who I would never want to have sex with, some that I really wanted to in the past, but are now married to close friends... some now have kids.... so the urge is gone. Things do change in time.....inevitably.
One of my best friends is my best friends wife... I was best man @ the wedding.
and for any single guys out there... be nice to all the girls that you don't find attractive, even if you don't like them... good things will go your way.... trust me.:cool:
I have many female friends, some who I would never want to have sex with, some that I really wanted to in the past, but are now married to close friends... some now have kids.... so the urge is gone. Things do change in time.....inevitably.
One of my best friends is my best friends wife... I was best man @ the wedding.
and for any single guys out there... be nice to all the girls that you don't find attractive, even if you don't like them... good things will go your way.... trust me.:cool:
Lol, of course! I'm not an asshole to girls I dont like or anything like that. This ladder does not reflect my views, I merely thought it was a bit funny how in most situations most of these rules apply.
But..you should finish reading it to see where you fit in, in the theory. Because it mentions all the situations your in for the most part.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Trying really hard to break the barrier aren't we? lol
Well should you get past the wall and find that Berlin is still in uproar and things fall apart, much like the novel: I would then recommend "The Magic of Making Up". I haven't read it but the spam/junk I get in my email says it works like 95% of the time. Hehehe....desperate people.
However: I support your idea of going after this lady if she really means that much to you...
Trying really hard to break the barrier aren't we? lol
Well should you get past the wall and find that Berlin is still in uproar and things fall apart, much like the novel: I would then recommend "The Magic of Making Up". I haven't read it but the spam/junk I get in my email says it works like 95% of the time. Hehehe....desperate people.
However: I support your idea of going after this lady if she really means that much to you...
Lol, this has nothnig to do with that. A girl I was talking to told me about it and I thought it was awesome. I kinda already knew most of it.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Ya, for the most part its pretty good stuff lol....And i sent it to a friend over myspace and he was like "OMG IM LEARNING SO MUCH!" lol
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
And i sent it to a friend over myspace and he was like "OMG IM LEARNING SO MUCH!" lol
...ok...
I love it when people who never gave a damn about anything psychological suddenly become interested when they get a link to some idiot's website... and they blindly believe it when they know absolutely nothing on the subject.
NLP is a lot more useful. It's actually among the same lines, btw. Except it discusses the causes not the symptoms (the ladder).
...ok...
I love it when people who never gave a damn about anything psychological suddenly become interested when they get a link to some idiot's website... and they blindly believe it when they know absolutely nothing on the subject.
NLP is a lot more useful. It's actually among the same lines, btw. Except it discusses the causes not the symptoms (the ladder).
Whats NLP?
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
NLP is a rather diffused term. It stands for Neuro-Linguistic Programming. It's sort of a theory of how physical, psychological, and linguistic factors influence human communication.
For instance, NLP has the term "rapport", described here http://www.thenlpcompany.com/techniques/practical-rapport-building-for-interviews/
According to NLP, how you look doesn't matter. Only your rapport does. And it can explain, as well as override, everything in that ladder...
How you move, how you breathe, how you look, how you articulate, what's your voice like.
7% is what you say. The rest is how you say it.
Although, honestly, that's very dumbed down. I read real NLP literature (going way back to the times of the theory's father), and it's a lot more complex than that. But NLP got taken over by marketologists and other gits who prefer to use it to harm people rather than help them.
I remember reading something on NLP alonglonglong time ago - It was along the lines of 'more communication between humans is nonverbal than verbal"
If true, that sucks for people like me. Where the body actions are exactly the opposite to whats going on in the head... Does NLP give any explanations on why that happens?
If true, that sucks for people like me. Where the body actions are exactly the opposite to whats going on in the head... Does NLP give any explanations on why that happens?
NLP wouldn't be worth anything if it didn't explain that. Originally, NLP was made specifically for people like you or people like me - people who aren't super charismatic from the start, or people with psychological issues (we all have them). NLP is there to dispell the magic of human communication and verbal influence. Common/classic psychology also does that, but it has a very organized approach. NLP is more daring, and, personally, more human. Humans are too weird to study each problem with statistics, although they were used for NLP as well.
For instance, for NLP, there is no good or bad. Every person's actions or reactions fulfill a positive intent, even if they lead to "negative" things. People are not inherently "bad", they always intend the positive, it's just that the positive intent has a different meaning for them than it does for others. Aka, another concept, framing, which isn't originally an NLP concept, actually, but is extensively used in NLP. This is why NLP looks at psychological problems differently.
NLP is ignored by most psychologists and is considered false. This is understandable since it scarcely fits the scientific method and is NOT a science in the first place. It's one of those things that are very hard to prove or disprove.
Also, knowing NLP helps you identify it in others and prevent them from manipulating YOU. This includes the most common use of NLP in the USA. TV advertisements.
The body acts with accordance to what's going on in the head. In fact, everything that ever happens is not unusual. When you understand that, you've _learned a real Bene Gesserit lesson_ mastered the "acceptance of facts".
The NLP area is overloaded with imitators and false trainers due to the nature of the ideas (NLP may lead to having total control over the other person, which is asking for abuse. NLP also claims to be irresistible by the average person, unlike hypnosis, which works haphazardly for select people but not for others). Moral of the story... find something old. Of the times of Milton Ericson and others.
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Take a look.
http://www.laddertheory.com/
If you have any distinct criticisms make sure you read the whole thing because the guy addresses a lot of criticisms people make.
My problem with it is that it seems a bit shady because after reading personal information the creator posted it makes you want to brush off the idea because he is clearly biased and seems that he may have had a few bad relationships lol. In other words, there is some serious bias...But then again, the theory is still definitely intriguing.
But from what I have been reading and learning I have concluded that it is true, for the most part there is a difference between what kind of guy a girl says she wants and what she really wants. After reflecting a bit.....the ladder theory seems to have some stability lol...Can anyone find any real flaw? I havn't examined it too much to identify any flaws, nor have I discussed it with any psychology buffs. What do you think?
Oh, my only criticism is about wealth, I'm not sure that is something so objective that it can be said that all girls want a man with wealth or power. But maybe.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
In fact, most of his stuff is "thinking aloud". That's what my research papers look like.
Furthermore, the excessive swearing and namecalling used in the project may mean that he was emotional while writing this.
And, the fact that he categorizes people as smart, ugly, and uses those factors to basically divide people into good and bad shows his lack of wisdom.
And, honestly, I have no idea what age group this applies to. Rich and Powerful is not something that applies to college students. "Ugly" is a rather meh concept for adults, on the contrary, while being extremely important to teenagers. And sex occurs scatteredly on the age interval as well. In truth, he needs to write different theories for diferent groups and divisions. Instead, he put them all into one big stack, making them void. You can only guess and assume who is he talking about on this page or another.
The ladder is also very strongly USA based. In USSR, none of this would apply at all since some concepts don't even exist. This makes the study also pretty uninteresting since that would indicate all those statements he's making are based on culture and society, e.g., variables.
His ladder is concentrated on a large group of people who use purely heuristic judgment in regards to others... yes, that group is huge, but that's not the whole population. Unfortunately for him, he belongs in that group, and can't really judge above it.
While I may sort of agree regarding his analysis of how people judge people when they first see them, I do not agree that that judgment defines anything at all. There are people who look twice, there are people who defeat their psychology.
I'm pretty sure I'm in the Abyss according to this ladder... lol
P.S.: I told Ray "You're so nice." about 300 times and he was a lot more than a friend. I also asked him to help with my summer calculus assignment. This generalization is so ridiculously narrow and biased it makes the whole ladder theory look stupid.
I said "My problem with it is that it seems a bit shady because after reading personal information the creator posted it makes you want to brush off the idea because he is clearly biased and seems that he may have had a few bad relationships lol. In other words, there is some serious bias...But then again, the theory is still definitely intriguing."
I agree completely that this form of the theory is tooo biased and the writer is obviously no friend of academia(although he does reference Keats lol) but i think out of all of his anger and bitterness toward women he was on to something lol..
The basic ideas of the theory i mean, in my opinion, are almost there. After a bit of though, i think the "ladder" structure is way too simple to use for the human psyche because there are more than one driving factor for human relationships and how we size others up.
I think if we put the theory into a set of "pools" rather than ladders and factor in a bit of psychology it would be a pretty solid idea lol....
Your in the abyss?!?!?! that sucks! Im on the good ladder with the girl im trying to get with..but a bit low on the ladder..according to the theory lol.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
LMFAO....
The reason probably 99% of men will agree with this theory is because most have seen it in action....
All guys, upon first encounter with women picture them naked consciously or subconsciously...Most know this.
And about the girl with tons of guy friends...usually the guys just want to bend them over.
That is also usually true.
I would testify that I don't want to bend my very close (girl) friend over a table but...I am looking to get with somebody I am more interested in. And also...I kinda would do her too lol....But thats not why I am friends with her. I'm friends with her cuz she is probably one of the coolest girls I have ever met. But...on a basic level I would still umm...not mind having fun with her...It may sound crude but I'm just being honest, I would be lying if I said anything different.
Oh and the point he made about if you don't believe that most guys are like this and gives an example (ask yourself if you can truly say that if the two of you were alone and you walked out of your bathroom naked and the guy could turn you down) also has a lot of truth to it honestly...
Some form of many of these ideas should be taught to the masses lol....
AND....if you can put it in the form of a ladder without finding a kink, if the information is introduced to the masses wouldn't it make everyone try to climb to higher parts of the ladder rocket propelling our society?!?!? lol....kidding a little bit.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Anyway, I'd agree with this ladder mostly, but for me this is just another ruleset that confuses people. Most of the time it will be true. Sometimes it wouldn't, but people who follow it would think so anyway, so they'd be depriving themselves. Not just guys. And it's not a bad thing. Long ago, people didn't even wear clothes.
You also have to note that a lot of people are in a constant state of sexual deprivation, which may facilitate irregular, biological perceptions of situations... It's all very complex.
It's all about how you want to look at things. Some people just have to find a set of rules by which to live because it makes everything easy and make them feel good. Religion, bureaucratic laws (government), social conformity, or theories such as these. Others prefer to get away from defined rulesets and analyze each situation individually, creating their own specific ruleset. I don't think the ultimate ruleset that gives answers to all questions exists or can exists. I can trust certain pieces, such as separate psychology concepts like "cognitive dissonance", and I can trust theories that are backed by such concepts, but I can't trust anything that explicitly says: "This is right (high), that is wrong (low)." And that's a part of what the guy is saying. That some people are lower, worse, than others. My philosophy is that people cannot be compared, and that all comparisons are attempts to, again, put the world under one ruleset or another. I honestly do not see how does that indicate anything if we brush away social constraints. Having sex does not destroy or remove friendship, unless you think so. Sex is not an expression of love, either.
What is for many, may not be for you.
I have many female friends, some who I would never want to have sex with, some that I really wanted to in the past, but are now married to close friends... some now have kids.... so the urge is gone. Things do change in time.....inevitably.
One of my best friends is my best friends wife... I was best man @ the wedding.
and for any single guys out there... be nice to all the girls that you don't find attractive, even if you don't like them... good things will go your way.... trust me.:cool:
Lol, of course! I'm not an asshole to girls I dont like or anything like that. This ladder does not reflect my views, I merely thought it was a bit funny how in most situations most of these rules apply.
But..you should finish reading it to see where you fit in, in the theory. Because it mentions all the situations your in for the most part.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Well should you get past the wall and find that Berlin is still in uproar and things fall apart, much like the novel: I would then recommend "The Magic of Making Up". I haven't read it but the spam/junk I get in my email says it works like 95% of the time. Hehehe....desperate people.
However: I support your idea of going after this lady if she really means that much to you...
Lol, this has nothnig to do with that. A girl I was talking to told me about it and I thought it was awesome. I kinda already knew most of it.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I love it when people who never gave a damn about anything psychological suddenly become interested when they get a link to some idiot's website... and they blindly believe it when they know absolutely nothing on the subject.
NLP is a lot more useful. It's actually among the same lines, btw. Except it discusses the causes not the symptoms (the ladder).
Whats NLP?
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
For instance, NLP has the term "rapport", described here http://www.thenlpcompany.com/techniques/practical-rapport-building-for-interviews/
According to NLP, how you look doesn't matter. Only your rapport does. And it can explain, as well as override, everything in that ladder...
How you move, how you breathe, how you look, how you articulate, what's your voice like.
7% is what you say. The rest is how you say it.
Although, honestly, that's very dumbed down. I read real NLP literature (going way back to the times of the theory's father), and it's a lot more complex than that. But NLP got taken over by marketologists and other gits who prefer to use it to harm people rather than help them.
If true, that sucks for people like me. Where the body actions are exactly the opposite to whats going on in the head... Does NLP give any explanations on why that happens?
For instance, for NLP, there is no good or bad. Every person's actions or reactions fulfill a positive intent, even if they lead to "negative" things. People are not inherently "bad", they always intend the positive, it's just that the positive intent has a different meaning for them than it does for others. Aka, another concept, framing, which isn't originally an NLP concept, actually, but is extensively used in NLP. This is why NLP looks at psychological problems differently.
NLP is ignored by most psychologists and is considered false. This is understandable since it scarcely fits the scientific method and is NOT a science in the first place. It's one of those things that are very hard to prove or disprove.
Also, knowing NLP helps you identify it in others and prevent them from manipulating YOU. This includes the most common use of NLP in the USA. TV advertisements.
The body acts with accordance to what's going on in the head. In fact, everything that ever happens is not unusual. When you understand that, you've _learned a real Bene Gesserit lesson_ mastered the "acceptance of facts".
The NLP area is overloaded with imitators and false trainers due to the nature of the ideas (NLP may lead to having total control over the other person, which is asking for abuse. NLP also claims to be irresistible by the average person, unlike hypnosis, which works haphazardly for select people but not for others).
Moral of the story... find something old. Of the times of Milton Ericson and others.