I figured as a first move to encourage intelligent discussion would be to put some pertinent topics on this forum. So I have this question for you...do you support abortion?
Personally, I do support abortion, despite my religious affiliation. It's not a matter of going against my religion, really. My belief is that it doesn't go against God, for me, unless my significant other was to get one. So if an athiest or a Buddhist or whatever wants to do it, then I am in no position to tell them what to do, especially in a country that supposedly advocates the separation of church and state.
A havy topic, one that also reminds me that I need to create another Philosophy thread.
Whether or not people support abortion usually comes down to how they value life and what they imagine life to be. I support abortion, for several reasons.
1. This is not just the child's life, but also the mothers. If she doesn't feel like she can handle it, then what world are we putting this kid into? It is her decision.
2. Abortion happens at a relatively early stage of pregnancy. It isn't (nevermind the horror pictures that exist) something that is done 2 weeks before the kid is born. It isn't capable of any advanced though, and most importantly, it cannot at the stage of abortion survive without the mother. It is not yet a separate lifeform. Without the mother, it dies.
3. Laws that prohibit everything in an absolute are doomed to fail. There are no absolutes in the real world, and circumstances will always be different from situation to sitiuation. Any law that fails to adapt (which many do) is bound to cause nhapined and unjust treatment.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
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i'm not quite sure about it. I do believe that its better not to bring a child in the world if ur not ready for it. But i do pity the embryos life too. Thank God i'm no woman and i dont have to decide about such things.
btw where does it say you cant have an abortion in the bible? and what the hell does the bible have to do with a medical and legal question with moral issues?
"You shall not kill" comes to mind, and the debate is largely due to people viewing the beginning of life as starting at different levels.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
It's wrong because in a Christian perspective, the babies were born to feel loving embrace by the parents and God himself. Everyone is God's children in a Christian perspective and God wouldn't want death happening to his children. Most people feel depressed when they get an abortion. Here's a touching poem a 17-year old wrote after she had her abortion.
Dear Babies, When we wake up in the morning 'Til the lights go out at night We think about you, babies Wishing we could hold you tight
We stop and think about you Full of sadness and of tears Because we know its all our faults That we can’t hold you near
We will never see you smile Never see your pretty face We'll never have the chance To hold you in our sweet embrace
We're all so sorry, babies We were lost and unprepared I wish there was some other way To show how much we care
But know for sure, our angels We have loved you from the start Your memories remain Back here today, in all our hearts
We remember you with a picture A letter, card or jewelry We wish we could have known What you'd be like or who you'd be
But we care about you, babies We love you more than you could know But surely heaven's the best place That anyone could go
You are accompanied by Jesus Strangers, family and friends And we all know that we'll see Each and every one of you again
You will NEVER be forgotten Without a doubt, we know it's true You are in our hearts forever We love you babies... see you soon
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All we can do is hope
All we can do is wait
For Diablo III
I support abortion. An embrion is not a person to me. He doesn't really think, he doesn't really feel. He has no memories, no dream, no anything. I don't know if abortion can or cannot be considered killing. But we do kill animals. An embrion is more of an animal to me.
The mother would have to deal with this. The baby would have to deal with this. If a family is doing an abortion, they usually have a very valid reason for it. A baby that lived in a bad environment won't, in most cases, turn out the kind of person we would want to see in our society...
And I am no religious person, I don't believe in churches, so to look at the matter from the religious perspective for me is ridiculous. Some churches think women are sin, to hell with them.
Hmm, it's difficult when I get asked whether I'm pro-choice or pro-life. Cause I'm a little bit of both. And I don't care for the over-generalized terms of being for life or choice. But I'll use the terms anyway for the sake of making the distinction.
Morally, my instincts make me pro-life. While I understand women who were either raped or in an incestual relationship might want to abort their babies. And who can blame them really? If you had to administer some kind of test to see whether the mother's life was at stake, you could well argue for the victim of a rape that the child she carries is a constant reminder of the trauma she endured and cannot be adequately treated unless she is rid of that baby who's father is the guy that raped her. Otherwise, her life could be at stake because she happens to be that suicidal over it.
Most babies conceived out of an incestual relationship are a product of rape as well. And how can anyone tell that person it is not within their right to choose to give it up? Could anyone imagine your dad also being your grandpa? It's simply a nightmare scenario. I'm not saying that child can't have a normal life, but it is ultimately up to the mother to make that decision.
All at the same time I get really frustrated at people making babies out of boredom and then deciding they just don't feel like being parents. In those cases, I tend to me more ideologic about the whole thing. Obviously, adoption is a viable alternative.
Basically, I'd say morally I'm pro-life, but politically I'm pro-choice. While the whole process and mentality behind many abortions is terrifying to me, what terrifies me even more is a government that wields such control over an individual's body. Ideally, we would like government to interfere as little as possible in our daily lives. But to overturn such cases like Roe v. Wade would create an atmosphere in the Supreme Court where people's individual rights and liberties are more easily conflicted with the will of the government.
As far as the whole argument of whether a fetus is recognized as a person with rights or not, that's a whole argument in itself. The inherent problem of debating abortion is no one truly agrees on when a life begins. Does it begin the moment the sperm touches the egg? Does it begin when digits have formed? Does it begin as soon as it is delivered and issued a Social Security number? Who really knows. There's a problem with applying a functionality test to determining life. Must our compassion for a living thing be based on its level of intelligence or cognitive abilities? I'd like to think not. And even if it must, science is proving more now than before that a fetus exhibits all kinds of intelligence and personality. We are constantly discovering new things about the brain that says a being is self-aware.
And Phrozen is absolutely right about these things never being absolute. There's never an ultimate standard to which this debate can apply. Each case is different than the last and all those things ranging from vast differences to subtle nuances must be taken into consideration. But if anyone really thinks that all abortions should be illegal no matter what, then yes, that kind of law is doomed to fail. And most pro-life activists understand this. When you see them protesting the way they do, it's usually to fight a given measure or lenience toward abortion. Both sides know they can never truly get all they want. So they must play the game of politics as well and work for a compromise.
Aye, a philosophy thread would be much appreciated.
Anyways, I disagree with abortion. I believe it is murder and against the Bible. Ask Elfen, I am one of the most religious people you will ever meet.
Not trying to enflame you or anything, but I am curious about something. As a Christian, just because you believe that abortion is wrong, would you seek to abolish it for everyone, regardless of their own religion?
i am against abortion in the 2nd and 3rd trimester
in the first the fetus isnt grown to much
im surprized on how many people are ok with this... its still killing, the baby had a chance at life but you are ending it
Huh? You just said it was okay as long as it wasn't in the 2nd and 3rd trimester. So as far as I can tell, you also are okay with killing the baby that had a chance at life because it wasn't grown too much.
im surprized on how many people are ok with this... its still killing, the baby had a chance at life but you are ending it
A woman can produce about 300 babies like that with that "chance of life". Big deal. They are not as valuable as our instincts make them, actually.
A baby is an animal. People kill animals everyday. Why can we justify killing and tourturing mindless animals but not babies who are not even out yet? It's NOT a person. Killing a kid is a lot worse in my opinion. But still people think killing infants is worse. For me that's just stupid.
A woman can produce about 300 babies like that with that "chance of life". Big deal. They are not as valuable as our instincts make them, actually.
A baby is an animal. People kill animals everyday. Why can we justify killing and tourturing mindless animals but not babies who are not even out yet? It's NOT a person. Killing a kid is a lot worse in my opinion. But still people think killing infants is worse. For me that's just stupid.
Then your argument is that based on a living thing's level of intellegince it may live or die. And because a baby is mindless as an animal, that's why it's justified? As I said, I'm fairly pro-choice, but I don't really see it your way.
A baby is not a person. It's an animal at that stage of development. That's why it's justified.
A woman can make many babies. That's why their value is overrated.
You can as well say that every time a man has sex or a woman doesn't have a baby during PMS they kill a baby, because a sperm is lost and an egg is lost. They could, theoretically, be alive, too... In fact, there is something said about that in the Bible - you can't have sex for the sake of sex.
so that applies to every living thing or what? (not being sarcatic, i actually dont know :D)
That's referring to fellow human beings, though it could certainly be interpreted as meaning everything.
im surprized on how many people are ok with this... its still killing, the baby had a chance at life but you are ending it
As stated, it all depends on what you view as ok. Vegans don't think we should kill anything. I say that it is ok to kill through abortion, because I do not view the still developing child as a separate entity. It is a part of the mother.
Why can we justify killing and tourturing mindless animals but not babies who are not even out yet?
Well, few people see it as justifiable to torture animals. Though if you are referring to animal testing, what would you rather have? Untested medicines on animals or humans?
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
i am pro abortion because i think that their are too many homeless and unfortunate kids already these days... people having more unwanted babies only makes the kids life worse and if a baby never knows that it even exists because its mind is not developed far enough anyway then why do they care if they live or die(this is in rape and accidental pregnancies such as when they using a condom or on the pill). But on the other hand if it is just 2 stupid people who know what they are getting into and not using birth control...(someone else said this) then they uphold they responsiblity to care and provide for the life that they are bringing into the world.... if they cant then they are lieing and too lazy to give the child the chance at life that the probably never had.
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Dream as if you'll live forever, and live as if you'll die today. "James Dean"
Well, few people see it as justifiable to torture animals. Though if you are referring to animal testing, what would you rather have? Untested medicines on animals or humans?
"Sure, humans are cute. But how are we supposed to test cosmetics?" - Zoidberg
Abortion to me seems like a way out for irresponsible people who like to do it, but don't want a child. I don't know much about it but, do the parents have to have a good reason for aborting the baby? Morally I could not order to have a potentially living human being to be killed.
As for fetuses being animals, I partially understand the logic, but then you'd have to apply that to all society. Should mentally retarded people or people on life support, who can't support themselves in any way be killed? Seems to me that you think the factors of the value of life or death of a person is self-awareness and inteligence which retarded people and babies have little of.
Regarding that poem....if that girl is so sad and loved the baby so much, why'd she kill the baby?
Personally, I do support abortion, despite my religious affiliation. It's not a matter of going against my religion, really. My belief is that it doesn't go against God, for me, unless my significant other was to get one. So if an athiest or a Buddhist or whatever wants to do it, then I am in no position to tell them what to do, especially in a country that supposedly advocates the separation of church and state.
Whether or not people support abortion usually comes down to how they value life and what they imagine life to be. I support abortion, for several reasons.
1. This is not just the child's life, but also the mothers. If she doesn't feel like she can handle it, then what world are we putting this kid into? It is her decision.
2. Abortion happens at a relatively early stage of pregnancy. It isn't (nevermind the horror pictures that exist) something that is done 2 weeks before the kid is born. It isn't capable of any advanced though, and most importantly, it cannot at the stage of abortion survive without the mother. It is not yet a separate lifeform. Without the mother, it dies.
3. Laws that prohibit everything in an absolute are doomed to fail. There are no absolutes in the real world, and circumstances will always be different from situation to sitiuation. Any law that fails to adapt (which many do) is bound to cause nhapined and unjust treatment.
Anyways, I disagree with abortion. I believe it is murder and against the Bible. Ask Elfen, I am one of the most religious people you will ever meet.
Dear Babies,
When we wake up in the morning
'Til the lights go out at night
We think about you, babies
Wishing we could hold you tight
We stop and think about you
Full of sadness and of tears
Because we know its all our faults
That we can’t hold you near
We will never see you smile
Never see your pretty face
We'll never have the chance
To hold you in our sweet embrace
We're all so sorry, babies
We were lost and unprepared
I wish there was some other way
To show how much we care
But know for sure, our angels
We have loved you from the start
Your memories remain
Back here today, in all our hearts
We remember you with a picture
A letter, card or jewelry
We wish we could have known
What you'd be like or who you'd be
But we care about you, babies
We love you more than you could know
But surely heaven's the best place
That anyone could go
You are accompanied by Jesus
Strangers, family and friends
And we all know that we'll see
Each and every one of you again
You will NEVER be forgotten
Without a doubt, we know it's true
You are in our hearts forever
We love you babies... see you soon
All we can do is wait
For Diablo III
The mother would have to deal with this. The baby would have to deal with this. If a family is doing an abortion, they usually have a very valid reason for it. A baby that lived in a bad environment won't, in most cases, turn out the kind of person we would want to see in our society...
And I am no religious person, I don't believe in churches, so to look at the matter from the religious perspective for me is ridiculous. Some churches think women are sin, to hell with them.
Morally, my instincts make me pro-life. While I understand women who were either raped or in an incestual relationship might want to abort their babies. And who can blame them really? If you had to administer some kind of test to see whether the mother's life was at stake, you could well argue for the victim of a rape that the child she carries is a constant reminder of the trauma she endured and cannot be adequately treated unless she is rid of that baby who's father is the guy that raped her. Otherwise, her life could be at stake because she happens to be that suicidal over it.
Most babies conceived out of an incestual relationship are a product of rape as well. And how can anyone tell that person it is not within their right to choose to give it up? Could anyone imagine your dad also being your grandpa? It's simply a nightmare scenario. I'm not saying that child can't have a normal life, but it is ultimately up to the mother to make that decision.
All at the same time I get really frustrated at people making babies out of boredom and then deciding they just don't feel like being parents. In those cases, I tend to me more ideologic about the whole thing. Obviously, adoption is a viable alternative.
Basically, I'd say morally I'm pro-life, but politically I'm pro-choice. While the whole process and mentality behind many abortions is terrifying to me, what terrifies me even more is a government that wields such control over an individual's body. Ideally, we would like government to interfere as little as possible in our daily lives. But to overturn such cases like Roe v. Wade would create an atmosphere in the Supreme Court where people's individual rights and liberties are more easily conflicted with the will of the government.
As far as the whole argument of whether a fetus is recognized as a person with rights or not, that's a whole argument in itself. The inherent problem of debating abortion is no one truly agrees on when a life begins. Does it begin the moment the sperm touches the egg? Does it begin when digits have formed? Does it begin as soon as it is delivered and issued a Social Security number? Who really knows. There's a problem with applying a functionality test to determining life. Must our compassion for a living thing be based on its level of intelligence or cognitive abilities? I'd like to think not. And even if it must, science is proving more now than before that a fetus exhibits all kinds of intelligence and personality. We are constantly discovering new things about the brain that says a being is self-aware.
And Phrozen is absolutely right about these things never being absolute. There's never an ultimate standard to which this debate can apply. Each case is different than the last and all those things ranging from vast differences to subtle nuances must be taken into consideration. But if anyone really thinks that all abortions should be illegal no matter what, then yes, that kind of law is doomed to fail. And most pro-life activists understand this. When you see them protesting the way they do, it's usually to fight a given measure or lenience toward abortion. Both sides know they can never truly get all they want. So they must play the game of politics as well and work for a compromise.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
Not trying to enflame you or anything, but I am curious about something. As a Christian, just because you believe that abortion is wrong, would you seek to abolish it for everyone, regardless of their own religion?
a girl is raped and gets pregnant or her life is in danger if she has the child - abort
a girl and guy (no matter what age) consent and do the do, she gets pregnant - their responsibility
in the first the fetus isnt grown to much
im surprized on how many people are ok with this... its still killing, the baby had a chance at life but you are ending it
Huh? You just said it was okay as long as it wasn't in the 2nd and 3rd trimester. So as far as I can tell, you also are okay with killing the baby that had a chance at life because it wasn't grown too much.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
A baby is an animal. People kill animals everyday. Why can we justify killing and tourturing mindless animals but not babies who are not even out yet? It's NOT a person. Killing a kid is a lot worse in my opinion. But still people think killing infants is worse. For me that's just stupid.
Then your argument is that based on a living thing's level of intellegince it may live or die. And because a baby is mindless as an animal, that's why it's justified? As I said, I'm fairly pro-choice, but I don't really see it your way.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
A woman can make many babies. That's why their value is overrated.
You can as well say that every time a man has sex or a woman doesn't have a baby during PMS they kill a baby, because a sperm is lost and an egg is lost. They could, theoretically, be alive, too... In fact, there is something said about that in the Bible - you can't have sex for the sake of sex.
That's referring to fellow human beings, though it could certainly be interpreted as meaning everything.
As stated, it all depends on what you view as ok. Vegans don't think we should kill anything. I say that it is ok to kill through abortion, because I do not view the still developing child as a separate entity. It is a part of the mother.
Well, few people see it as justifiable to torture animals. Though if you are referring to animal testing, what would you rather have? Untested medicines on animals or humans?
"Sure, humans are cute. But how are we supposed to test cosmetics?" - Zoidberg
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
As for fetuses being animals, I partially understand the logic, but then you'd have to apply that to all society. Should mentally retarded people or people on life support, who can't support themselves in any way be killed? Seems to me that you think the factors of the value of life or death of a person is self-awareness and inteligence which retarded people and babies have little of.
Regarding that poem....if that girl is so sad and loved the baby so much, why'd she kill the baby?
just yank the front of a crazy persons brain out, they're fixed... they're a veggie but fixed