Again this is just one arena and designed for the demo. You shouldn't base all of your opinions on the demo. There will be multiPle arenas with multiple changes and other differences.
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@conax - you just described the very tactic players will use but called it lucky. A skilled pvp will know when and where the globes will pop. They will begin moving to those areas while trying to keep others away from that area. While some may get lucky when these pop, a skilled player can deny them while picking them up themselves.
@ Popo - I hate glitches. Glitches are a way for a few players to abuse a system that was never intended to be used that way. Maybe it's more fun for those few but it makes it worse for everyone else.
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If you read the OP, then you would know that they are not randomized. They are in set locations on set timers. In fact, I asked why they are not randomized and bashiok gave the same reason you are upset with. So, yes. Skill will be a huge factor in obtaining these globes. And again, a lot of the fine tuning has yet to come like how many there are and how much they will heal.
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. As for FireSorcsPwn...Diablo is not and never will be an ideal PvP game, so disappointment is to be expected if PvP gaming is what you are looking for. This is first and foremost a PvM/storyline experience, not a PvP competitive game. PvP support in D2 was next to nonexistant, so I think it can only go up from there.
The fact that blizzard did not support PvP is what i was saying i enjoyed about it and, as for my experiance, it was the ideal PvP set-up. I liked the high speed hectic pace allowed in large area free for alls. I didnt like being nk'd but the goal of getting your body back and getting revenge i enjoyed...and if you didnt you could make/join a different game...For me d2's system was ideal (maybe im alone on this) and id like to know what games are ideal PvP games
not to make a long story short but you do remember how skills worked in D1 compared to D2? In D1, there were no skill trees. Skills were based on books that you found. In D2, they got rid of the dropped loot mechanic of skills and replaced it with skills trees. This was a huge change between those two games and many D1 fans complained how it changed the whole structure of the game and characters. However, you feel like there was minimal change between the two games.
I think a lot of people just fear change until they play the game and realize how much of it still feels likes Diablo.
Yeah, they took the skill system from D1 and expanded it. Remember how everyone had the same spellbook. Even if you were warrior you just had your int set laying around town for reading books and casted the same crap as a mage if you wanted.
All they did for D2 was take the same basic setup and say hey you know what, it'd be cool if you only had a set amount of points to use for your skills, and classes had different skills rather then everyone having the same. They took a cool mechanic from D1 and expanded upon it and made it better in D2.
Now lets look at another diabloesque feature in both D1, and D2, the barter system. D1 you had to drop trade, D2 introduced trade windows. Seems like the natural progression that should follow suit in D3 should be ways to find trades your looking for other then spamming channels, going to third party websites, or sitting in games named xx for xx for hours. For example, this free game I've been playing lately has a cool system linking items to their website, so you can make transactions with other players via the website so you can trade even when you aren't logged in. You seal your items, or characters for that matter, post them, and they remain up for trade until you pull them down or someone trades you for them. Its just too bad Blizzard had to resort to the same lame gold based economy and auction house ripped right out of WoW.
D3 isn't an MMO.
At the end of the day its gonna be no different then your mindless grindfest mmo just lacking a persistent world. What do you get when you take d2, gut out every feature that set it apart from mmo's, replace them with the guts of an mmo, then say but the game is going to be instance based with 5 player maxes? You get d3 silly, duh.
Seriously?! You just justified a major change in the mechanics of the skill system by embracing change and functionality but disregard the same type of changes from D2 to D3.
The skill system was not an improvement on the same mechanic. In D1, skills you obtained were all based on luck of drops. In D2, there was no luck, every player had access to the same skills per class. The whole principle of the mechanic was thrown out. Which is fine because it made the game better. That is what D3 is doing with the flaws of D2. You can simply justify the change in your own mind because you were ok with this change. Many were not and claimed the same issue for D2 that you are trying to claim for D3.
With the AH, a gold based economy is not from wow. Many games used AH's before WoW. The oldest example of this economy would be our actual world. There is a reason why we use this same system in RL, because it works better than a bartering system. I don't have to spend pointless hours finding the one person who wants my item and happens to have the item I want in return for trade. This is just an improvement of the trading system from D2. In fact, this has more in common with the trade system of D2 then the skill system does of D1 to D2. So if you were ok with that change, I can't imagine how you are not okay with this improvement to the same system.
finally, this thread is on the health globes in D3. If you would like to continue talking specifically about that topic you may, otherwise these rants have gone completely off topic.
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The fight begins, they fight alittle in the middle and their health drops down to around 50%(both teams that is). Its a very even fight, then, some of the teams catches all the globes and gets 100% health. All hope is now gone and they can stand still waiting for their death when it could've been an awsome and nerve wrecking fight till the end. Perhaps i was exagerating with the amount of health they would gain from the globes but as i dont know for sure, i'll just use it as an example. Even if you would gain 20% health from the globes and both teams are evenly skilled, you'd probably still lose.
You got it right.
It takes some focus off the actual game and skill and put said skill on "getting the orb". In an even match, the orb will logically decide the victor. You just pick it up and you have an instant edge over the enemy, instead of relying on tactics and skills to do so.
Its all about the orb now. It decides matches. If someone pick the orb and you beat him, he made crucial mistakes, or your build is more powerful than his.
I hate this with a passion, like I said already. Picking a powerup should not be the common turning point of a match. I don't understand how anyone can think this is fun.
Seriously?! You just justified a major change in the mechanics of the skill system by embracing change and functionality but disregard the same type of changes from D2 to D3.
The skill system was not an improvement on the same mechanic. In D1, skills you obtained were all based on luck of drops. In D2, there was no luck, every player had access to the same skills per class. The whole principle of the mechanic was thrown out. Which is fine because it made the game better. That is what D3 is doing with the flaws of D2. You can simply justify the change in your own mind because you were ok with this change. Many were not and claimed the same issue for D2 that you are trying to claim for D3.
Nah its completely the same thing. Does it really matter if you have to play for an hour to get a skill point when you level or play for an hour to get one for a random drop? The only difference, like I previously stated, is that in D1 ever class had the same spellbook, where as D2 eac class had its own trees. Also in d1 everyone could get everything up to insane levels, but in d2 you only had so many points to spend. I'm not saying its the same exact system, but if you play d1, then play d2, you can definately see how the system evolved, but the core of your spells getting buffer as you leveled them stay in tact. I'd agree with you they completely removed the skill system from d1 going into d2 if every class had 1 attack that never changed, like a first person shooter where a shotgun is always a shotgun and an m16 is always an m16, but thats just not the case.
Its much along the lines of saying team play sucked in d1. Perm friendly fire and the game often amounting to watching one character hack everything at a door was lame, so they improved the system for d2. However they still have the hostile feature, so realistically if you still wanted to play friendly fire d1 style you could. Yet another change you could see the progression of, yet, in d3 they totally strip any sort of friendly fire/hostile feature. They aren't furthering the diablo series, they're just mainstreaming/lamestreaming the game.
But besides for that and back on topic. How on earth are health globes an improvement? If anyone feels otherwise feel free to pipe in, but by far the top 3 lame features of d2 pvp were hackers, potters, and mass sorbers, so what does blizzard do, they essentially add in an auto pot feature. Seriously this is the first time I've ever agreed with SFJake on a topic, this is just an awful, lame feature, you'd have to be a paid cheerleader for blizzard to even try to say this is a good idea.
Insulting someone simply for disagreeing with you is hardly an effective way to try to prove your own point.
Many people have already posted multiple reasons why they like health globes in PvP. It adds additional tactics to PvP, it helps prolong matches without having to weaken players. There is also the possibility of arenas without health globes for those of you who don't want them while allowing those who do to still have them.
Arguing the one-sided effect of health globes is a moot point since 1. Every player has an equal chance of getting these globes and 2. Balancing has yet to be done so if the one person who gets the globes always wins because of this, they can scale it down.
The one thing that confuses me is how having health globes in PvP is mainstreaming PvP?
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I don't understand how anyone can think this is fun.
The arena, itself, is more fun. Specifically rounds. I won't say that I'm entirely happy about orbs--for the reasons you and others pointed out, so I won't bother rehashing those same arguments--but it does make it more challenging for whomever does win, and, at the very least, there's one more factor that can lead to a win besides gear and who has the most baddass mouse.
I'm not sure which of you have played the arena demo, but it isn't quite a deciding factor as far as I experienced it, and I played it for a few hours both days. It can get you out of sticky situations, but for the most part you're on your own. It's usually impossible to get to an orb before someone hits you since there's so many ranged attack possibilities. One of the few exceptions for this is with teleport, but that can't be spammed, anymore. It would essentially have to be reserved for getting to orbs (and not evading attacks) for it to help at all, and since you can't teleport through obstacles, if you're on the outskirts of the arena, you're still screwed. Opponents can easily place hydras or traps in front (or meteor, or blizzard, or any point-location spell) of you while you're running for an orb and--if you're so close to death, which is the only circumstance in which concern would be valid--you'll be dead, anyway.
Even though orbs are on timers, your chances of getting one just when you need it are very low. It's more odd if you do get one. Usually whoever has the health to spare and isn't being raped will just grab all of them so opponents won't be able to use them, regardless of whether or not the player needs them.
And don't we want more elements of surprise and chance in the game? Or are we being selective--we only want it in PvM, but we want strict control of PvP?
But, like most game options, I agree that they should (and most likely will) be toggleable. We shouldn't be forced to use them if we don't want to. There are plenty of duelers who will want more strict dueling environments where they don't have to think about another variable, and there will be duelers--plenty of them--who will master orb retrieval and learn to turn duels on that basis. And then we'll be back to potters in D2. >.>
Turn them on, turn them off. I feel the same way about time limits, points, everything else regarding the arena. They're fun features. They add flavor to every battle. But they have their place. Sometimes we just want to screw around with our friends, and so we don't want timers or points or round limits and we don't want to have to waste all our potions to restore health so we can keep playing in a duel game. Sometimes we want to value our wins, and so points, rounds, etc., help us quantify those results. Taking out orbs, especially in the latter, will obviously mean a more realistic outcome.
Additionally, I think some interesting features for arenas could be sudden death, or something like the timed escaped dungeon we saw a few years ago but with PvP elements thrown in. Perhaps one with no resource limitations. An option that only allows pet combat to show off who has the best minions. *shrug*
PvP never was my thing in any game. But I will give it a try in D3. I really like to see a free for all option an no potions allowed. The world of Diablo is a harsh world, why should an arena be any different?
It seems like you guys are ALL overlooking some crucial points.
How much will health orbs heal for? What if it's only a 10% heal? That's not gonna make or break the fight.
How much "crowd control" will each class have? We already know there are silences, slows, stuns, freeze. These could ALL play a large part in more serious PvP now.
I don't see the big problem yet, especially because we don't know how much they will heal. Imagine THIS scenario if you will:
One guy is a good, dedicated PvPer. The other is purely a PvEer and just PvP's casually. They are fighting it out, PvPer knows where and when the globe will drop, he fights his opponent into a corner knowing that the globe is going to spawn behind him and he wants to distance the PVE guy from it. The globe spawns, and the PVEer begins to react. It's too late though the PvP barbarian stuns the PvE monk and leaps across the stadium to gather the globe.
Sounds great and tactically satisfying. Not to mention it could only end up healing a tiny amount in pvp and then the fight continues and the PvEer perishes shortly afterwards.
D3 isn't an MMO.
What hole did you crawl from? You're like a worm feeling the intense rain of PvP talks.
New account? Did you get banned because of one of your old, passionate discussion about PK PvP?
I liked your old account with the record of most negative reputation :/
Just chiming in to say, even if you win you should try and take something away from the battle. Even if it's how to not play the game.
Health globes in arena sounds like a mechanic that will define the arena experience of Diablo 3 if they keep them.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Except I think orbs work slow, and I don't think they even heal to full. Not to mention trying to camp or run for an orb could get you killed.
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@ Popo - I hate glitches. Glitches are a way for a few players to abuse a system that was never intended to be used that way. Maybe it's more fun for those few but it makes it worse for everyone else.
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
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The fact that blizzard did not support PvP is what i was saying i enjoyed about it and, as for my experiance, it was the ideal PvP set-up. I liked the high speed hectic pace allowed in large area free for alls. I didnt like being nk'd but the goal of getting your body back and getting revenge i enjoyed...and if you didnt you could make/join a different game...For me d2's system was ideal (maybe im alone on this) and id like to know what games are ideal PvP games
Yeah, they took the skill system from D1 and expanded it. Remember how everyone had the same spellbook. Even if you were warrior you just had your int set laying around town for reading books and casted the same crap as a mage if you wanted.
All they did for D2 was take the same basic setup and say hey you know what, it'd be cool if you only had a set amount of points to use for your skills, and classes had different skills rather then everyone having the same. They took a cool mechanic from D1 and expanded upon it and made it better in D2.
Now lets look at another diabloesque feature in both D1, and D2, the barter system. D1 you had to drop trade, D2 introduced trade windows. Seems like the natural progression that should follow suit in D3 should be ways to find trades your looking for other then spamming channels, going to third party websites, or sitting in games named xx for xx for hours. For example, this free game I've been playing lately has a cool system linking items to their website, so you can make transactions with other players via the website so you can trade even when you aren't logged in. You seal your items, or characters for that matter, post them, and they remain up for trade until you pull them down or someone trades you for them. Its just too bad Blizzard had to resort to the same lame gold based economy and auction house ripped right out of WoW.
At the end of the day its gonna be no different then your mindless grindfest mmo just lacking a persistent world. What do you get when you take d2, gut out every feature that set it apart from mmo's, replace them with the guts of an mmo, then say but the game is going to be instance based with 5 player maxes? You get d3 silly, duh.
The skill system was not an improvement on the same mechanic. In D1, skills you obtained were all based on luck of drops. In D2, there was no luck, every player had access to the same skills per class. The whole principle of the mechanic was thrown out. Which is fine because it made the game better. That is what D3 is doing with the flaws of D2. You can simply justify the change in your own mind because you were ok with this change. Many were not and claimed the same issue for D2 that you are trying to claim for D3.
With the AH, a gold based economy is not from wow. Many games used AH's before WoW. The oldest example of this economy would be our actual world. There is a reason why we use this same system in RL, because it works better than a bartering system. I don't have to spend pointless hours finding the one person who wants my item and happens to have the item I want in return for trade. This is just an improvement of the trading system from D2. In fact, this has more in common with the trade system of D2 then the skill system does of D1 to D2. So if you were ok with that change, I can't imagine how you are not okay with this improvement to the same system.
finally, this thread is on the health globes in D3. If you would like to continue talking specifically about that topic you may, otherwise these rants have gone completely off topic.
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
It takes some focus off the actual game and skill and put said skill on "getting the orb". In an even match, the orb will logically decide the victor. You just pick it up and you have an instant edge over the enemy, instead of relying on tactics and skills to do so.
Its all about the orb now. It decides matches. If someone pick the orb and you beat him, he made crucial mistakes, or your build is more powerful than his.
I hate this with a passion, like I said already. Picking a powerup should not be the common turning point of a match. I don't understand how anyone can think this is fun.
Nah its completely the same thing. Does it really matter if you have to play for an hour to get a skill point when you level or play for an hour to get one for a random drop? The only difference, like I previously stated, is that in D1 ever class had the same spellbook, where as D2 eac class had its own trees. Also in d1 everyone could get everything up to insane levels, but in d2 you only had so many points to spend. I'm not saying its the same exact system, but if you play d1, then play d2, you can definately see how the system evolved, but the core of your spells getting buffer as you leveled them stay in tact. I'd agree with you they completely removed the skill system from d1 going into d2 if every class had 1 attack that never changed, like a first person shooter where a shotgun is always a shotgun and an m16 is always an m16, but thats just not the case.
Its much along the lines of saying team play sucked in d1. Perm friendly fire and the game often amounting to watching one character hack everything at a door was lame, so they improved the system for d2. However they still have the hostile feature, so realistically if you still wanted to play friendly fire d1 style you could. Yet another change you could see the progression of, yet, in d3 they totally strip any sort of friendly fire/hostile feature. They aren't furthering the diablo series, they're just mainstreaming/lamestreaming the game.
But besides for that and back on topic. How on earth are health globes an improvement? If anyone feels otherwise feel free to pipe in, but by far the top 3 lame features of d2 pvp were hackers, potters, and mass sorbers, so what does blizzard do, they essentially add in an auto pot feature. Seriously this is the first time I've ever agreed with SFJake on a topic, this is just an awful, lame feature, you'd have to be a paid cheerleader for blizzard to even try to say this is a good idea.
Keep up the hard work blizzard
Many people have already posted multiple reasons why they like health globes in PvP. It adds additional tactics to PvP, it helps prolong matches without having to weaken players. There is also the possibility of arenas without health globes for those of you who don't want them while allowing those who do to still have them.
Arguing the one-sided effect of health globes is a moot point since 1. Every player has an equal chance of getting these globes and 2. Balancing has yet to be done so if the one person who gets the globes always wins because of this, they can scale it down.
The one thing that confuses me is how having health globes in PvP is mainstreaming PvP?
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
The arena, itself, is more fun. Specifically rounds. I won't say that I'm entirely happy about orbs--for the reasons you and others pointed out, so I won't bother rehashing those same arguments--but it does make it more challenging for whomever does win, and, at the very least, there's one more factor that can lead to a win besides gear and who has the most baddass mouse.
I'm not sure which of you have played the arena demo, but it isn't quite a deciding factor as far as I experienced it, and I played it for a few hours both days. It can get you out of sticky situations, but for the most part you're on your own. It's usually impossible to get to an orb before someone hits you since there's so many ranged attack possibilities. One of the few exceptions for this is with teleport, but that can't be spammed, anymore. It would essentially have to be reserved for getting to orbs (and not evading attacks) for it to help at all, and since you can't teleport through obstacles, if you're on the outskirts of the arena, you're still screwed. Opponents can easily place hydras or traps in front (or meteor, or blizzard, or any point-location spell) of you while you're running for an orb and--if you're so close to death, which is the only circumstance in which concern would be valid--you'll be dead, anyway.
Even though orbs are on timers, your chances of getting one just when you need it are very low. It's more odd if you do get one. Usually whoever has the health to spare and isn't being raped will just grab all of them so opponents won't be able to use them, regardless of whether or not the player needs them.
And don't we want more elements of surprise and chance in the game? Or are we being selective--we only want it in PvM, but we want strict control of PvP?
But, like most game options, I agree that they should (and most likely will) be toggleable. We shouldn't be forced to use them if we don't want to. There are plenty of duelers who will want more strict dueling environments where they don't have to think about another variable, and there will be duelers--plenty of them--who will master orb retrieval and learn to turn duels on that basis. And then we'll be back to potters in D2. >.>
Turn them on, turn them off. I feel the same way about time limits, points, everything else regarding the arena. They're fun features. They add flavor to every battle. But they have their place. Sometimes we just want to screw around with our friends, and so we don't want timers or points or round limits and we don't want to have to waste all our potions to restore health so we can keep playing in a duel game. Sometimes we want to value our wins, and so points, rounds, etc., help us quantify those results. Taking out orbs, especially in the latter, will obviously mean a more realistic outcome.
Additionally, I think some interesting features for arenas could be sudden death, or something like the timed escaped dungeon we saw a few years ago but with PvP elements thrown in. Perhaps one with no resource limitations. An option that only allows pet combat to show off who has the best minions. *shrug*
How much will health orbs heal for? What if it's only a 10% heal? That's not gonna make or break the fight.
How much "crowd control" will each class have? We already know there are silences, slows, stuns, freeze. These could ALL play a large part in more serious PvP now.
I don't see the big problem yet, especially because we don't know how much they will heal. Imagine THIS scenario if you will:
One guy is a good, dedicated PvPer. The other is purely a PvEer and just PvP's casually. They are fighting it out, PvPer knows where and when the globe will drop, he fights his opponent into a corner knowing that the globe is going to spawn behind him and he wants to distance the PVE guy from it. The globe spawns, and the PVEer begins to react. It's too late though the PvP barbarian stuns the PvE monk and leaps across the stadium to gather the globe.
Sounds great and tactically satisfying. Not to mention it could only end up healing a tiny amount in pvp and then the fight continues and the PvEer perishes shortly afterwards.