And you would rather see what classes instead that still meet the basic RPG requirements?
Something that doesn't meet the basic RPG requirements. If I want basic RPG requirements I'll go play a DnD game. Every game you open is like "Warrior, Archer, Mage". It was good back in 1995 but today it's kinda boring.
He can even have auras!
Or summons (people dont like that idea because 'WD already has summons')
That's just mixing up all DII ideas really.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
Why should the ranged class be like the amazon?
He would have one 'weapons' tree with ranged (and spear?) skills.
The other skill types could be anything.
Why should he have a weapons tree at all? I never got this whole thing about concentrating on weapons. It's bullcrap to me. If I want an amazon she has to use javelins and bows. Awesome. (I tried a sword-amazon it didn't work)
Quote from "Kenzai" »
You can even give the ranger lycantrophy.
And traps...
He's still a ranger. Still tied to bows.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
Its just a spellcaster, doesnt have be nearly the same as the D2 one.
But damage spells are good.
Every class in Diablo II is a spellcaster. They all use mana, they all cause elemental damage. So I don't know what the heck do you mean by a spellcaster.
If a class uses traps on a cooldown, that's one thing. If he causes traps by mana, he's a spellcaster.
Yes, a heavy spellcaster who uses purely spells for damage.
But he can have other things to increase the already existing damage.
Necro uses only spells, and WD may very much do the same. How are those not pure spellcasters? Just because they don't use ice-fire-lighting?
Quote from "Kenzai" »
It would be difficult to make the classes unique if they just have damage increasing spells which can be used with every ranged or melee weapon.
If classes differ purely by weapons, there is nothing unique about them.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
Gameplay wise, a sword amazon is the same as a female barb except the combat skills.
I disagree. The average definition of what a barbarian is is a low-armored fighter that prefers offense over defense. An amazon, on hte other hand, can be more balanced, and/or geared towards evasion, agility, defense, block, etc. Those two would be different.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
No, not still tied to bows.
There are shapeshift builds, ranged builds and maybe spear builds.
Traps assist when using ranged/spear.
Tied to bows/spears. Same difference. Basically every ranger would be forced to use bows and spears. There's no way a ranger can learn to use swords, or javelins, or kama's, or throw axes... no way at all. A skill tree made up of weapon enhancements is cheap no matter how you look at it. I always like the way the necromancer skills were because they were all pretty original. Assassin was geared at katars. Amazon at bows/spears/javelins. Weak.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
We dont have mana anymore, its just skill-energy. Is the barb casting when he uses combat skills? He uses mana after all.
I don't care what Blizzard calls it. I call it mana. Stuff that diminishes after you cast things. The gameplay mechanic of this is the same, unless they do something new in DIII, and I hope they will.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
An example of a hardcore direct-damage spell fan.
I'm pretty sure there are fans of anything out there, doesn't mean everything should remain 100% the same since they can't adapt.
Necro uses spells but summons monsters which deal the damage. He only has one spell tree which includes direct-damage spells, bone&poison. But corpse/poison explosion, poison dagger etc. arent directly damaging. Only bone spear/spirit, poison nova are. Thats not a lot.
Thats what i mean.
A spellcaster that only uses direct damaging spells is, lore-wise, worthless. Utility spells are always in the lead, and teleport proved that. The Necromancer is a much more wise spellcaster than the sorceress because he has a wide array of spells for various uses, a true wizard. The sorceress is just an elementalist, a rather low level of magic, if you ask me. That's why I don't want them again.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
Weapons are a part of the differences. Barb and pala have skills which can be used with every weapon, but amazon is a class thats meant to use spears and ranged weapons.
Claws are also a thing that make the assassin unique.
Not with every, but with melee and throwing and shields. Why can't amazon do the same. Have skills that gear to not just 2 weapons, but more. Instead of 2 trees for bow and spear, one tree for bow, crossbow, javelin, spear. If the amazon is skilled to use all of these, so should her skills gear to all at once, and the rest of her trees should be something new.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
In Diablo II, the barb was just a pure melee fighter plus some other abilities like shouts etc. He also uses heavy armor.
Our knight would be more on the agility side, but unfortunately hes still not that much agile. Maybe the shield using class would be what you want? He uses heavy shields though.
An agility warrior could be in the xpack, i like that idea too (but in the form of an asian warrior).
The fact that the DII barb uses heavy armor always baffled me, but w/e. I also don't remember a knight, so what do you mean by "our knight"?
Shield using class? No you don't get me already. I want to make a paladin with a 2-handed sword. Why am I disadvantaged against that - the damage does not compensate blocking. Why can't I make a dual wield paladin. Plenty of medieval warriors could dual wield, and plenty used a wide array of weapons, and plenty used shields. It's not the courtesy of barbarians to dual wield, it's a pretty widespread thing. I wouldn't be surprised to see a witch doctor dual wielding daggers.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
The player can choose to make a shapeshifter, but otherwise, yes, hes meant to use spears and ranged weapons like the amazon. His skills would differ greatly and he uses traps etc., so its not quite the same as an amazon.
Those weapons are a part of those classes' uniqueness.
Weapons are an easy way out. It's simpler to let players just use bows the entire game, then tell them "here are all your ranged stuff, and they all have different speed and damage and effects, choose". I found it pretty cheezy that my assassin could ignore all weapons except claws...
Quote from "Kenzai" »
You said 'if he uses mana for traps, hes a spellcaster'.
He uses his own skill-energy. That doesnt make him a spellcaster.
Thats what i meant. What can i do if you call it mana?
WTF is skill-energy? Diablo II pretty much has only one energy attribute. The blue orb. Skills either use that blue orb, use nothing, or use health (Sacrifice). What do you mean by skill-energy?
Quote from "Kenzai" »
Sorcerers who deal damage by casting spells are in every RPG.
Is that a positive argument? Every RPG uses them, so lets be copying those?
Nox wizards have as many utility spells as damage spells.. RoM Wizards are primarily used for healing and buffing of warrios. NWN wizards hardly ever remember the damage dealing stuff - they mostly concentrate on utility stuff. But the sorcs in DII came out as elementalists. Exceptions are telekinesis, static field, teleport, and energy shield. What's funny, many players use those 4 even if not using lighting damaging spells. Doesn't that tell you utility spells > damage spells.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
And you want sword using amazons?..
I want choice. I don't want my characters rigid if there is an illusion of leveling.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
Its really not easy to make the game so that every class can use every weapon AND make the classes unique, skills fit etc.
Since when making a sequel to one of hte bestselling Hack&Slash (a rather dumb genre) games became easy?
If we didn't have such a weapon rigidness, we could base weapon classes of DEX and STR attributes, like in good old DI. Weapon spells would be replaced by generalized spells, or spells that truly define characters. Shapeshifting, summons, curses, auras, shouts, utility spells/skills, charged attacks, finishing moves, traps of all sorts - I want to see more of this.
I don't want to see more of Fire Arrow, Ice Arrow, Lighting arrow, poison arrow, black arrow, divine arrow... in NWN these were quiver types, you know.
"Shapeshifting, summons, curses, auras, shouts, utility spells/skills, charged attacks, finishing moves, traps of all sorts" - these are all DI skills. /sarcasm
If you can't say anything worthwhile, don't bother posting at all. DI, for your information, was much more rigid, because warrior only used melee, rogue only used bows, and sorc only used spells, and that's exactly what I am going against, but what I am going for is that STR and DEX should be important for weapon damage.
Generalized means being more widespread over weapons. Aka, more stuff like Zeal (works for ANY melee weapon) as opposed to stuff like Lighting Spear (adds lighting damage to Spears only).
What about Smite? Or Strafe...Should they be available for all weapons?
Obviously not, but most paladins are either smiters or don't really use it, so that skill doesn't make the paladin a shield-only character. Shields are rather exceptional.
Strafe can work for any projectile weapon.
Quote from "DarkSacred" »
Equinox I think you're being unrealistic within the scope of a hack and slash game like DIII...
I think you are not getting what I am saying at all and there is no point for you to even talk to me.
Worthless? Its his prime source of damage. Hes a sorc whos meant to deal with monsters, he either summons monsters to his bidding or uses spells that damage his oppenent directly. You cant kill a beast by teleporting around or debuffing his resistances to %-100 and his life to 1 if you dont have something to kill him. Melee is in most cases not a chance either.
If the mage specializes in damaging spells, they can be pretty useful. If he didnt specialize in summoning, this would be his way of killing.
You can't kill a lighting immune without lowering his immunity. You cannot survive a horde of monsters without teleporting away from them if they attack you faster than you cast spells. Static field does half the job for you. There is one thing in getting a relative level of fire spells and using utility spells to weaken enemies and then finishing them off, then just raining them with he same spell over and over and over again.
The problem with Diablo is that it's pretty easy to avoid being killed compared to how hard it is to kill monsters since they have thousands of health.
Now, I realize some people totally own hell with their sorc but that's clearly a disbalance. Hell should be hard.
Okay the idea of gathering all weapon skills is a good one. I assist that too, but you cant use the same skills for ranged and melee weapons. They have to be balanced. Maybe there could be one skill and slightly different effects for spears and ranged.
But if spears are the classes special weapon, the skills shouldnt work with every other melee weapon.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
I meant the paladin.
There probably will be a class that somehow resembles to a pally. Not lore-wise though, the weapons he uses etc.
Well, I tried to play a 2-handed paladin, he is greatly disadvantaged against a shield paladin. This is without even max block or anything - 2-handed weapons are just way too weak.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
Sure you can make a pally with 2-hand weapons, thats a build option.
I don't remember that being an option. It's an option when a 2handed pally is just as awesome as any other build. But mostly a 2-handed pally will lose.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
When saying shield-class i mean the class whom the heavy shields fit. In D2, the pally was this class, but as shields were somehow overpowered, even casters used them.
Okay you may have a dual wield pally too (or even WD), just dont forget to give the barb skills which make dual-wield more effective for him, so he actually has a difference.
The difference can be made not by skills, but by character configuration. Such as the barbarian having better control of dual wielded weapons, making him stronger with them, while other classes receive a penalty for dual-wielding unless they raise their dex a bit. I also don't see how barb is any better with dual-wield than a paladin but w/e.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
Yes, some classes are limited to some weapons, but thats a part of them.
Okay, give assassin the same skills for daggers etc. but please no axe wielding assassin.
An assassin can still hold axes, but that wouldn't happen. To wield an axe, you need STR. Suppose the assassin receives much better damage bonuses from using Dex while using light weapons (knife, katar, and whatever else). Why would he try to use an Axe if he receives puny bonuses from STR anyway? And his axe would never get too powerful? He wouldn't. This makes a character unique without making him rigid.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
Its fury for the barb and mana for the WD.
Nobody has a clue how those work so that's irrelevant.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
Copying? I dont think thats copying.
Its a Hack'nSlash game, every spellcaster needs either summons or directly-damaging spells to kill his enemies. The WD uses summons, but you can give the spellcaster some timed elementals etc. just keep the damage spells, you cant just throw them away.
I have nothing against spellcasters using damage spells. I am against making a class entirely based on elemental damage.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
Choice is good, but some classes are unique with their weapons.
A sorcerer really shouldnt use axes.
Again, make it so that sorcs don't want to use axes. I think this is in DII already but it got screwed up by weapon skills. STR for sorc does nothing, axe requires STR, sorc would never wield an axe - problem solved.
Quote from "Kenzai" »
So let assasins and amazons use two handed swords and axes too.
I dont want their only difference being the effect of the skills.
The assassin would just be a warrior who uses charge/finishers.
Assassins are agile characters, they are not fit for large weapons. Amazons, on the other hand, are dexterous versions of a warrior, geared towards ranged and evasive combat.
No, but to use the skill the Pally has to use a shield...In effect limiting the Pally if he wishes to use all his skills...
I'm failing to understand your point here. You don't want weapon specific skills, but you say they're acceptable?
A paladin has a few weapon-specific skills, like smite and holy shield.
An Amazon has ONLY weapon specific skills among those that deal damage. If you are an amazon, you either use bows or spears or javelins. In fact, you can't use a combination of those. You have to center on one. A paladin can use any 1-handed, 2-handed weapon, if only shield block was a bit balanced. The issue with paladin is not smite, it's disbalance of shields, and they are disbalanced against all classes. Rightfully, the paladin should have the best bonus from shields, but whether or not he concentrates on those is his choice. If he's not a smiter he doesn't have to use shields, that's what I want to see.
These weapons are what the Amazons specialise in, they wouldn't be able to throw Javs as fast as they can Strafe with Bows
Strafe with them slower. Make skills have different effects for each weapon. This will make it more interesting in choosing what weapon should you use with that skill.
Quote from "Arbedark" »
or enchant an Axe blow with lightning like they enchant a Spear jab.
I first want to know where amazons learned magic, but realy I don't see how is enchanting an axe with lighting any different from enchanting a spear. It has nothing to do with the skill of using the weapon.
Strafe with them slower. Make skills have different effects for each weapon. This will make it more interesting in choosing what weapon should you use with that skill.
I first want to know where amazons learned magic, but realy I don't see how is enchanting an axe with lighting any different from enchanting a spear. It has nothing to do with the skill of using the weapon.
Quote from "DarkSacred" »
I guess because I'm challenging your argument and don't directly agree with you...
You had no argument. Your only argument was: "This is too new for Diablo, go play another game, you are trying to turn it into Oblivion". I played plenty of games and what I propose has nothing to do with Oblivion and is probably closest to NWN. Since you brought Oblivion here it is clear that your argument is unfounded and you neither read, nor thought about what I have written, so why should I respond to you? "Go play another game" is not an argument, and never have been.
So you want this to be the case with the zon too? She can use her spells with every weapon but using the other weapons is useless...
Whats the difference???
And if it really makes no diference, make the skills only work with spears, its cooler that way.
First of all, "useless" is a relative term. The other weapon is not useless, just weaker. But also note that these weapons have their own parameters which may override the attributes of the amazon. It's much more complex than just "axes are useless, spears work better". This freedom allows for more hybridism, and generally makes the system more complex because you are free to use any weapon you want, but you have to think about the consequences.
Second of all, realism? Immersion? I find it much more immersive when an amazon is slow and weak with a fire enchanted axe as opposed to "skill A only works on spears". I also don't like dumbing down games.
Coolness is subjective, I can't say much here. I think weapon-geared skills = lack of imagination.
Well, since a lot of us seemed to be lost in quotes and a bit of high tempers I'll just rephrase the system I want to see:
- I want attributes to really matter. I want you to not just pump VIT for health and DEX for chance to block and STR for armor wear. I want those attributes to give classes real advantages. For instance (these are EXTREMELY rough calculations):
(please note, i consider crossbow and throwing axe hybrid weapons that require both considerable strength AND dexterity)
Diablo II already kinda has this system, but it's underdeveloped and largely ignored.
The barbarian will be affected like this
+1 STR = + 1 to damage to all heavy melee weapons (axes except maybe hand axes, large swords, bastard swords if used in one hand, heavy maces, hammers, flails, whatever)
+ .75 to damage for heavy throwing weapons (large throwing axes)
+ .25 to damage to all light melee weapons (knives, swords, etc.)
+ .35 to damage to crossbows
+1 DEX = + .25 to damage to all ranged weapons
+ .15 to damage to all light throwing weapons (throwing knives, javelins)
+ .25 to damage to crossbows
There would also be attack rating bonuses for different weapons + defense bonuses, which would also differ, and dual wield stuff, but I didn't add that in this area.
The amazon, on the other hand
+ 1 STR = + .75 to damage to all heavy melee weapons
+ .15 to damage for heavy throwing weapons
+ .85 to damage for all light melee weapons
+ .35 to damage to crossbows
+1 Dex = + 1 to damage to all ranged weapons
+ .85 to damage to all light throwing weapons
+ .50 to damage to crossbows
This may look a bit messy but it's the best I can do right off the bat like that... the point is, barbarians will be much better of increasing their STR and using 2-handed heavy weaponry, and amazons are going to be better of using bows or throwing weapons and increasing their DEX. This is like genetic pre-conditioning. These qualities are going to be character-dependent, and they are totally independent of skills. What's the problem with DII system?
The weapon-geared skills such as fire arrow give huge bonuses that are not really even dependent on the weapon you are using, or your DEX attribute, properly. A rogue using fire arrow may have pretty low DEX but still beat a rogue without fire arrow and with a javelin and high DEX, and that suggesting the bow and javelin have the same base damage and speed. The attribute is disregarded. All you need is to get a bow and that skill. So nobody touches DEX anymore. Fire Arrow > DEX. And DEX is a whole fucking attribute.
On the other hand, if you turn fire arrow into "Enchant ranged weapon with fire", and have it base on the physical damage of the weapon, it would balance the class throughout itself, AND it would allow the amazon to use javelings, bows, crossbows, throwing knives, and whatever. As well as weapons the amazon should not really be using.
Strafe? You can get more complicated. Make good strafe for bows and javelins make bad strafe for axes.
Other skills may react differently. For instance, Impale. Can't exactly impale with an axe can you? You need something spiky.
So, a new player looking at the amazon class, and having somewhat of an idea of what weapons does amazon use well, may start looking at the builds and think about what weapon is he going to use, not just what skill he's going to go for. The system won't be telling him anymore: "OK, javelins, bows, spears, take your pick and move on". If he wants to use light throwing axes because of their higher damage, he will have to forget about strafe and tons of other skills.
The amazon is still going to be unique because despite the fact that she can use huge double axes and empower them with fire, her base damage would be very low. Just ad DII, you can still try using a double axe, and it will be useless, but nto because there are no skills for double axe, but because the amazon STR bonuses for double axes are too low.
This is not really organized but I need much more time to organize anything here.
I get what you mean and thats a really good idea. I was under the impression you were talking with regards to the types of classes available and not the way in which each class reacts to the way in which its stat points are distributed.
Pretty much allows you to use and play with whatever you want instead of forcing you to be overly linear, but at the same time you can get bonuses for using a more suited item.
IMO they would need to do the same with armour, so that casters are more likely to use cloth type armours than heavy ones made of steel by offering bonuses to them if they decide to do so rather than going for additional defence and the same goes for shields.
It's my fault, I am really bad at explaining myself sometimes.
Speaking of armor, there could be other bonuses. In Diablo II, armor already affects your movement speed, so this way casters and rangers who value speed more would be inclined to use lighter armor, and tanks can go with heavy armor since they don't need speed that much. And, again, requirements. For heavy armor you need tons of STR.
TBH i think you should fully develop the idea and present it in a separate thread as it will be lost within this one.
Maybe. How much time would that take? LOL But it will certainly be lost here. It will probably be lost anyway. People are not into reading big walls and if I post my idea it will take LOTS of space.
It's my fault, I am really bad at explaining myself sometimes.
Speaking of armor, there could be other bonuses. In Diablo II, armor already affects your movement speed, so this way casters and rangers who value speed more would be inclined to use lighter armor, and tanks can go with heavy armor since they don't need speed that much. And, again, requirements. For heavy armor you need tons of STR.
Spells could cost more mana with heavy armor.. i mean focusing more with all the burden on your neck will take more energy ^.^
That's just mixing up all DII ideas really.
Why should he have a weapons tree at all? I never got this whole thing about concentrating on weapons. It's bullcrap to me. If I want an amazon she has to use javelins and bows. Awesome. (I tried a sword-amazon it didn't work)
He's still a ranger. Still tied to bows.
Every class in Diablo II is a spellcaster. They all use mana, they all cause elemental damage. So I don't know what the heck do you mean by a spellcaster.
If a class uses traps on a cooldown, that's one thing. If he causes traps by mana, he's a spellcaster.
If classes differ purely by weapons, there is nothing unique about them.
I disagree. The average definition of what a barbarian is is a low-armored fighter that prefers offense over defense. An amazon, on hte other hand, can be more balanced, and/or geared towards evasion, agility, defense, block, etc. Those two would be different.
Tied to bows/spears. Same difference. Basically every ranger would be forced to use bows and spears. There's no way a ranger can learn to use swords, or javelins, or kama's, or throw axes... no way at all. A skill tree made up of weapon enhancements is cheap no matter how you look at it. I always like the way the necromancer skills were because they were all pretty original. Assassin was geared at katars. Amazon at bows/spears/javelins. Weak.
I don't care what Blizzard calls it. I call it mana. Stuff that diminishes after you cast things. The gameplay mechanic of this is the same, unless they do something new in DIII, and I hope they will.
I'm pretty sure there are fans of anything out there, doesn't mean everything should remain 100% the same since they can't adapt.
except about the part about all builds being tied to bows and rangers must follow strict guidelines. Don't like that part.
Not with every, but with melee and throwing and shields. Why can't amazon do the same. Have skills that gear to not just 2 weapons, but more. Instead of 2 trees for bow and spear, one tree for bow, crossbow, javelin, spear. If the amazon is skilled to use all of these, so should her skills gear to all at once, and the rest of her trees should be something new.
The fact that the DII barb uses heavy armor always baffled me, but w/e. I also don't remember a knight, so what do you mean by "our knight"?
Shield using class? No you don't get me already. I want to make a paladin with a 2-handed sword. Why am I disadvantaged against that - the damage does not compensate blocking. Why can't I make a dual wield paladin. Plenty of medieval warriors could dual wield, and plenty used a wide array of weapons, and plenty used shields. It's not the courtesy of barbarians to dual wield, it's a pretty widespread thing. I wouldn't be surprised to see a witch doctor dual wielding daggers.
Weapons are an easy way out. It's simpler to let players just use bows the entire game, then tell them "here are all your ranged stuff, and they all have different speed and damage and effects, choose". I found it pretty cheezy that my assassin could ignore all weapons except claws...
WTF is skill-energy? Diablo II pretty much has only one energy attribute. The blue orb. Skills either use that blue orb, use nothing, or use health (Sacrifice). What do you mean by skill-energy?
Is that a positive argument? Every RPG uses them, so lets be copying those?
Nox wizards have as many utility spells as damage spells.. RoM Wizards are primarily used for healing and buffing of warrios. NWN wizards hardly ever remember the damage dealing stuff - they mostly concentrate on utility stuff. But the sorcs in DII came out as elementalists. Exceptions are telekinesis, static field, teleport, and energy shield. What's funny, many players use those 4 even if not using lighting damaging spells. Doesn't that tell you utility spells > damage spells.
I want choice. I don't want my characters rigid if there is an illusion of leveling.
Since when making a sequel to one of hte bestselling Hack&Slash (a rather dumb genre) games became easy?
If we didn't have such a weapon rigidness, we could base weapon classes of DEX and STR attributes, like in good old DI. Weapon spells would be replaced by generalized spells, or spells that truly define characters. Shapeshifting, summons, curses, auras, shouts, utility spells/skills, charged attacks, finishing moves, traps of all sorts - I want to see more of this.
I don't want to see more of Fire Arrow, Ice Arrow, Lighting arrow, poison arrow, black arrow, divine arrow... in NWN these were quiver types, you know.
If you can't say anything worthwhile, don't bother posting at all. DI, for your information, was much more rigid, because warrior only used melee, rogue only used bows, and sorc only used spells, and that's exactly what I am going against, but what I am going for is that STR and DEX should be important for weapon damage.
Strafe can work for any projectile weapon.I think you are not getting what I am saying at all and there is no point for you to even talk to me.
The problem with Diablo is that it's pretty easy to avoid being killed compared to how hard it is to kill monsters since they have thousands of health.
Now, I realize some people totally own hell with their sorc but that's clearly a disbalance. Hell should be hard.
Okay the idea of gathering all weapon skills is a good one. I assist that too, but you cant use the same skills for ranged and melee weapons. They have to be balanced. Maybe there could be one skill and slightly different effects for spears and ranged.
But if spears are the classes special weapon, the skills shouldnt work with every other melee weapon.
Well, I tried to play a 2-handed paladin, he is greatly disadvantaged against a shield paladin. This is without even max block or anything - 2-handed weapons are just way too weak.
I don't remember that being an option. It's an option when a 2handed pally is just as awesome as any other build. But mostly a 2-handed pally will lose.
The difference can be made not by skills, but by character configuration. Such as the barbarian having better control of dual wielded weapons, making him stronger with them, while other classes receive a penalty for dual-wielding unless they raise their dex a bit. I also don't see how barb is any better with dual-wield than a paladin but w/e.
An assassin can still hold axes, but that wouldn't happen. To wield an axe, you need STR. Suppose the assassin receives much better damage bonuses from using Dex while using light weapons (knife, katar, and whatever else). Why would he try to use an Axe if he receives puny bonuses from STR anyway? And his axe would never get too powerful? He wouldn't. This makes a character unique without making him rigid.
Nobody has a clue how those work so that's irrelevant.
I have nothing against spellcasters using damage spells. I am against making a class entirely based on elemental damage.
Again, make it so that sorcs don't want to use axes. I think this is in DII already but it got screwed up by weapon skills. STR for sorc does nothing, axe requires STR, sorc would never wield an axe - problem solved.
Assassins are agile characters, they are not fit for large weapons. Amazons, on the other hand, are dexterous versions of a warrior, geared towards ranged and evasive combat.
An Amazon has ONLY weapon specific skills among those that deal damage. If you are an amazon, you either use bows or spears or javelins. In fact, you can't use a combination of those. You have to center on one. A paladin can use any 1-handed, 2-handed weapon, if only shield block was a bit balanced. The issue with paladin is not smite, it's disbalance of shields, and they are disbalanced against all classes. Rightfully, the paladin should have the best bonus from shields, but whether or not he concentrates on those is his choice. If he's not a smiter he doesn't have to use shields, that's what I want to see.
I first want to know where amazons learned magic, but realy I don't see how is enchanting an axe with lighting any different from enchanting a spear. It has nothing to do with the skill of using the weapon.
First of all, "useless" is a relative term. The other weapon is not useless, just weaker. But also note that these weapons have their own parameters which may override the attributes of the amazon. It's much more complex than just "axes are useless, spears work better". This freedom allows for more hybridism, and generally makes the system more complex because you are free to use any weapon you want, but you have to think about the consequences.
Second of all, realism? Immersion? I find it much more immersive when an amazon is slow and weak with a fire enchanted axe as opposed to "skill A only works on spears". I also don't like dumbing down games.
Coolness is subjective, I can't say much here. I think weapon-geared skills = lack of imagination.
Well, since a lot of us seemed to be lost in quotes and a bit of high tempers I'll just rephrase the system I want to see:
- I want attributes to really matter. I want you to not just pump VIT for health and DEX for chance to block and STR for armor wear. I want those attributes to give classes real advantages. For instance (these are EXTREMELY rough calculations):
(please note, i consider crossbow and throwing axe hybrid weapons that require both considerable strength AND dexterity)
Diablo II already kinda has this system, but it's underdeveloped and largely ignored.
The barbarian will be affected like this
+1 STR = + 1 to damage to all heavy melee weapons (axes except maybe hand axes, large swords, bastard swords if used in one hand, heavy maces, hammers, flails, whatever)
+ .75 to damage for heavy throwing weapons (large throwing axes)
+ .25 to damage to all light melee weapons (knives, swords, etc.)
+ .35 to damage to crossbows
+1 DEX = + .25 to damage to all ranged weapons
+ .15 to damage to all light throwing weapons (throwing knives, javelins)
+ .25 to damage to crossbows
There would also be attack rating bonuses for different weapons + defense bonuses, which would also differ, and dual wield stuff, but I didn't add that in this area.
The amazon, on the other hand
+ 1 STR = + .75 to damage to all heavy melee weapons
+ .15 to damage for heavy throwing weapons
+ .85 to damage for all light melee weapons
+ .35 to damage to crossbows
+1 Dex = + 1 to damage to all ranged weapons
+ .85 to damage to all light throwing weapons
+ .50 to damage to crossbows
This may look a bit messy but it's the best I can do right off the bat like that... the point is, barbarians will be much better of increasing their STR and using 2-handed heavy weaponry, and amazons are going to be better of using bows or throwing weapons and increasing their DEX. This is like genetic pre-conditioning. These qualities are going to be character-dependent, and they are totally independent of skills. What's the problem with DII system?
The weapon-geared skills such as fire arrow give huge bonuses that are not really even dependent on the weapon you are using, or your DEX attribute, properly. A rogue using fire arrow may have pretty low DEX but still beat a rogue without fire arrow and with a javelin and high DEX, and that suggesting the bow and javelin have the same base damage and speed. The attribute is disregarded. All you need is to get a bow and that skill. So nobody touches DEX anymore. Fire Arrow > DEX. And DEX is a whole fucking attribute.
On the other hand, if you turn fire arrow into "Enchant ranged weapon with fire", and have it base on the physical damage of the weapon, it would balance the class throughout itself, AND it would allow the amazon to use javelings, bows, crossbows, throwing knives, and whatever. As well as weapons the amazon should not really be using.
Strafe? You can get more complicated. Make good strafe for bows and javelins make bad strafe for axes.
Other skills may react differently. For instance, Impale. Can't exactly impale with an axe can you? You need something spiky.
So, a new player looking at the amazon class, and having somewhat of an idea of what weapons does amazon use well, may start looking at the builds and think about what weapon is he going to use, not just what skill he's going to go for. The system won't be telling him anymore: "OK, javelins, bows, spears, take your pick and move on". If he wants to use light throwing axes because of their higher damage, he will have to forget about strafe and tons of other skills.
The amazon is still going to be unique because despite the fact that she can use huge double axes and empower them with fire, her base damage would be very low. Just ad DII, you can still try using a double axe, and it will be useless, but nto because there are no skills for double axe, but because the amazon STR bonuses for double axes are too low.
This is not really organized but I need much more time to organize anything here.
Speaking of armor, there could be other bonuses. In Diablo II, armor already affects your movement speed, so this way casters and rangers who value speed more would be inclined to use lighter armor, and tanks can go with heavy armor since they don't need speed that much. And, again, requirements. For heavy armor you need tons of STR.
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)