I always looked at it as Trag'Oul being the Father/Mother.
Hell the whole world lies on his/her shoulders, literally.
He/She is Father/Mother to all.
Except for one important detail, and that's the fact that angels and demons are not from Sanctuary. And since Sanctuary came into existence during the War between Heaven and Hell, he would actually be younger than Diablo and his brothers.
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Except for one important detail, and that's the fact that angels and demons are not from Sanctuary. And since Sanctuary came into existence during the War between Heaven and Hell, he would actually be younger than Diablo and his brothers.
See I have not read the books, I've only taken in what information about the books I could gather here and there on-line.
As I said the whole Diablo Universe is very interesting but confusing to me, heh.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
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In DII, after you finish Diablo, Tyreal will tell you that by smashing their soulstones you have sent Diablo and Meph back into the abyss where they spawn. That means they all come from the abyss and mostlikely don't have Father.
They call each other Brother, I think mainly because they spawned from the abyss in the same generation and allied together to rule the Burning Hell. As we can read from fictions (as Legacy of Blood, Black Road, etc), demons do ally with others and make contract to achieve their evil purpose.
I've read the link in your post in previous page. It's so funny that I also find some sort of answer to what I was just about to ask here.
Here is what confuses me:
Demons come from the Abyss ; Lilith was cast into the Void by Inarius ; Ureh was stranded in limbo.
I understand that abyss, void and limbo should be three seperate spaces/levels. However as I try fitting them into my native culture, espacially when translating , the three look the same.
In the wiki page Ryukenden provided, I've learn that
Note that the Void is separate to the Abyss. The Void is more like a place where beings can be trapped in (like Lilith), while the Abyss is where demons are actually spawned from and where they return to when they die.
That's a good source. I still want more explanation to get a accurate definition of the three terms.
Here is what confuses me:
Demons come from the Abyss ; Lilith was cast into the Void by Inarius ; Ureh was stranded in limbo.
I understand that abyss, void and limbo should be three seperate spaces/levels. However as I try fitting them into my native culture, espacially when translating , the three look the same.
In the wiki page Ryukenden provided, I've learn that
That's a good source. I still want more explanation to get a accurate definition of the three terms.
Maybe a little off-topic:P.
There's nothing more to know really. The books don't mention the Abyss, and the void and limbo (is taht what they called it in The Kindgom of Shadow?) are never mentioned in the games. So there's no way to cross-check anything, it's mainly educated guesses.
They do appear to be disctinct realms, but as always, I'm convinced that Blizzard just made a bunch of stuff up without detailed planning when they created Diablo II, only to later realize they should delve further into the universe.
One way to imagine it is that limbo is lin somethin like a shadow of Sanctuary; the viod is consequently the same shadow, but for all of creation rather than just one world. And the Abyss... it could for all we know just be another name for Hell, or some world connected to Hell. It's all so ambiguous.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
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Mephisto stood at the portal to hell to protect from any challenger entering, which lead to his (assumed) demise. So why would he do that if he didn't think of anyone but himself?
And also, baal sais; "My brothers would not have died in vain", which also proves that they thought of eachothers as friends, or atleast family.
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If we are to defeat the flames of hell, it sure can't be done with fire..
The thoughts you guys shared do make things much more clear. Though the actual meaning depends on how BLZ would set those places in the future, now I get the essential difference between the three words.
I remember in Kingdom of Shadow I came across the word "limbo" a few times, and I looked up the book. Here is one I found in chapter 6.
“No. We found ourselves trapped in limbo, trapped in a timeless passage between the earthly plane and our glorious destination . . . and all because of one man’s evil.”
Mephisto stood at the portal to hell to protect from any challenger entering, which lead to his (assumed) demise. So why would he do that if he didn't think of anyone but himself?
If you're talking about loyalty or emotion, there is no definitive way of saying that is true or not. If we are to pattern their behavior after normal demons in Diablo, then I would say it was more likely commitment to their mission to enslave humanity and gain a foothold closer to the High Heavens than because Mephisto cared about either of his "brothers". If they lost, he lost. Mephisto is wise, not stupid, and his suffix is also "of Hatred", so I really doubt he'd be open to anything like that, anyway.
In my opinion, he's the archetypicial conniving, genius villain, just as a horrifying demon.
If you're talking about loyalty or emotion, there is no definitive way of saying that is true or not. If we are to pattern their behavior after normal demons in Diablo, then I would say it was more likely commitment to their mission to enslave humanity and gain a foothold closer to the High Heavens than because Mephisto cared about either of his "brothers". If they lost, he lost. Mephisto is wise, not stupid, and his suffix is also "of Hatred", so I really doubt he'd be open to anything like that, anyway.
In my opinion, he's the archetypicial conniving, genius villain, just as a horrifying demon.
Most of that is, of course, just conjecture
You certantly make a good point. And as the question "Did the brothers love each other?", it could be discussed for a long time without any certaint answer (since they never actually say "OH BROTHER MEPHISTO I LOVE U SO MUCH". Though, I would 'like' to believe that the brothers, despite their hatred and demonic behavour, had somewhat emotions for eachother which also led Baal to say "My brothers would not have died in vain".
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If we are to defeat the flames of hell, it sure can't be done with fire..
The story related above illustrates that the most cunning Demons understand alliances and even friendship, to a degree. The tale of Sanctuary's genesis likewise tells you that Demons -- and angels -- are far more complex than creatures of light or shadow. Remember, humanity embodies everything that Heaven and Hell are capable of, together, as one. Angels are capable of every evil a demon can fathom; and a demon is capable of every righteous act an angel can exact. They each simply tend to lean more one way than another.
Diablo, Baal and Mephisto have endured for millenia together. They fancy themselves as manifestations of Evil itself. Spawned from the Black Abyss, they saw strengths in one another, and allied. But I think they have a "higher purpose", hinted at briefly by Mephisto himself, as he recited some litany as they summoned the burning gates of hell. They ultimately serve evil, and see themselves as its ultimate manifestation. In serving each other they serve Evil; and in serving Evil they serve themselves.
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Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow
Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?
The road's goal is the dark Origin of Being
But be wary through what thickets it winds.
-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
If you guys play games like NWN, BG, BG2, IWD, DDO and so on; they are based on the forgotten realms(abv. FR). Its universe is the most largest and most explain in all rpgs. The king and father of RPG. Abyss and hell are not one in the same according most lores, although they share some simularities. In the forgotten realms it state that abyss are home for demons while hell are home for devils. In santuary, I believe that abyss is no more than a powerful force that spawns them while hell is a plane in which they rule.
Another simularities that these two games share is their explaination of deities.
In FR, There is only one almighty being that is everything. He gives power to these so called deities a profile over certain areas like fire, war, death and so on. These deities are not immortal (much like diablo and other lords, even angels; which all can be destroyed/defeated). Thier power grow with followers and worshippers.
I can get into more detail as the chains of lore is complex yet rich.
As of yet, it has yet to be established that there is any one "All Creator" or "Over-Deity" that presides over all events, times and races. The only entity that comes even close is Trag'Oul, but his genesis co-incided with that of Sanctuary itself, which was created by an Archangel.
From what I understand, the Abyss is the primordial, swirling, chaotic nether-realm form which spawn demon kind. However, do Angels ALSO arise from the Abyss, or some other equivalent realm/entity?
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Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow
Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?
The road's goal is the dark Origin of Being
But be wary through what thickets it winds.
-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
Just because they are brothers...doesnt mean that there has to be a daddy. Soldiers call themselves brothers...;)
true but father doesn't always mean daddy. father could mean a mentor/teacher.
so the father of the three could be just a demon who took the three under his wing (no pun intended) and when the three got to stronger they cast him out of the burning hells or made him into their personal slave.
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My life is like a dragon, first praised, then hated, now lost.
This could be a possibility. However there is no mention of this at all in any of the books or games. But adding this as a surprise in Diablo III would be absolute!
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Those before me shall quiver in my wake as I unleash the fury within!
Well for one demons do show love and a little loyalty. It said that lilth only ever truely loved one person. and this was inarius. Yes she did betray him because of there differences of opinion but it said she still loved him at one time. It also never says that demons can't hold feelings. they prefer chaos as the angles prefer order. so the 3 brothers working together in order to make themselfs stronger isnt that far fetched. And in the end when if diablo did kill his two brothers then he himself would be weaker. because then lesser demons could band together and over throw him. Even tho this ended up happening any way. The three managed to take out 1/3 of hells minions in the process of being expelled from hell. so if diablo was only standing alone it probly woulda been alot easier. As the 3 prime evils i think they are loyal to each other and mabey do cross eachother to gain more power sometime. but i dont think either of the 3 would ever consider overthrowing one of the others.
I know this little topic of myn here almost died but i wanted to front up something new ive found around these forums that made me get to thinking as evidence of my Prime Evil Father AKA King of Hell theory.
The Fiery Winged Angel...........Now i know he helps the main characters of some book and appears to be a good guy....but am I the only person who seems to think its kind of Wierd that his bloody wings are on fire!?!?
I beleive theres a symbolism there and Fiery Winged angels usually arent angels from heaven, and the fact that he IS a angel makes it even more curious because that means he could be original Fallen.(In alot Religious storys of the origins of heaven and hell and how the war started it involves some rogue angel going ageisnt heaven.)
Course this means im proding uncoverd territory here(or at least unknown for me.) and that is the beginning of the War between Heaven and Hell.
Would anyone have any Lore links they could give me as to the beginning of the war between heaven and hell please?
In religious scriptures and other similar text, fire can be a tool of heaven and divine beings, like angels, which is of more of a purifying essence than a burning one....doesn't have to be of something with a malevelont nature.
Plus, I remember about the Fiery Angel you're talking about that the wings only appeared to be on fire because of how the energy of them was flailing.
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See I have not read the books, I've only taken in what information about the books I could gather here and there on-line.
As I said the whole Diablo Universe is very interesting but confusing to me, heh.
I just hope that all will come together in D3.
They call each other Brother, I think mainly because they spawned from the abyss in the same generation and allied together to rule the Burning Hell. As we can read from fictions (as Legacy of Blood, Black Road, etc), demons do ally with others and make contract to achieve their evil purpose.
Here is what confuses me:
Demons come from the Abyss ; Lilith was cast into the Void by Inarius ; Ureh was stranded in limbo.
I understand that abyss, void and limbo should be three seperate spaces/levels. However as I try fitting them into my native culture, espacially when translating , the three look the same.
In the wiki page Ryukenden provided, I've learn that
That's a good source. I still want more explanation to get a accurate definition of the three terms.
Maybe a little off-topic:P.
They do appear to be disctinct realms, but as always, I'm convinced that Blizzard just made a bunch of stuff up without detailed planning when they created Diablo II, only to later realize they should delve further into the universe.
One way to imagine it is that limbo is lin somethin like a shadow of Sanctuary; the viod is consequently the same shadow, but for all of creation rather than just one world. And the Abyss... it could for all we know just be another name for Hell, or some world connected to Hell. It's all so ambiguous.
And also, baal sais; "My brothers would not have died in vain", which also proves that they thought of eachothers as friends, or atleast family.
I remember in Kingdom of Shadow I came across the word "limbo" a few times, and I looked up the book. Here is one I found in chapter 6.
If you're talking about loyalty or emotion, there is no definitive way of saying that is true or not. If we are to pattern their behavior after normal demons in Diablo, then I would say it was more likely commitment to their mission to enslave humanity and gain a foothold closer to the High Heavens than because Mephisto cared about either of his "brothers". If they lost, he lost. Mephisto is wise, not stupid, and his suffix is also "of Hatred", so I really doubt he'd be open to anything like that, anyway.
In my opinion, he's the archetypicial conniving, genius villain, just as a horrifying demon.
Most of that is, of course, just conjecture
You certantly make a good point. And as the question "Did the brothers love each other?", it could be discussed for a long time without any certaint answer (since they never actually say "OH BROTHER MEPHISTO I LOVE U SO MUCH". Though, I would 'like' to believe that the brothers, despite their hatred and demonic behavour, had somewhat emotions for eachother which also led Baal to say "My brothers would not have died in vain".
Diablo, Baal and Mephisto have endured for millenia together. They fancy themselves as manifestations of Evil itself. Spawned from the Black Abyss, they saw strengths in one another, and allied. But I think they have a "higher purpose", hinted at briefly by Mephisto himself, as he recited some litany as they summoned the burning gates of hell. They ultimately serve evil, and see themselves as its ultimate manifestation. In serving each other they serve Evil; and in serving Evil they serve themselves.
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
Another simularities that these two games share is their explaination of deities.
In FR, There is only one almighty being that is everything. He gives power to these so called deities a profile over certain areas like fire, war, death and so on. These deities are not immortal (much like diablo and other lords, even angels; which all can be destroyed/defeated). Thier power grow with followers and worshippers.
I can get into more detail as the chains of lore is complex yet rich.
From what I understand, the Abyss is the primordial, swirling, chaotic nether-realm form which spawn demon kind. However, do Angels ALSO arise from the Abyss, or some other equivalent realm/entity?
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
true but father doesn't always mean daddy. father could mean a mentor/teacher.
so the father of the three could be just a demon who took the three under his wing (no pun intended) and when the three got to stronger they cast him out of the burning hells or made him into their personal slave.
Woot! 4k posts!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
So have his weapons.
The Fiery Winged Angel...........Now i know he helps the main characters of some book and appears to be a good guy....but am I the only person who seems to think its kind of Wierd that his bloody wings are on fire!?!?
I beleive theres a symbolism there and Fiery Winged angels usually arent angels from heaven, and the fact that he IS a angel makes it even more curious because that means he could be original Fallen.(In alot Religious storys of the origins of heaven and hell and how the war started it involves some rogue angel going ageisnt heaven.)
Course this means im proding uncoverd territory here(or at least unknown for me.) and that is the beginning of the War between Heaven and Hell.
Would anyone have any Lore links they could give me as to the beginning of the war between heaven and hell please?
Plus, I remember about the Fiery Angel you're talking about that the wings only appeared to be on fire because of how the energy of them was flailing.