No more used games?

  • #65
    Not much of a console player, so wouldn't hit me, but I can't really see this working.

    You would have to be online to be logged on right? This means you would need to have internet at all times.

    Is Microsoft willing to give up their paid Xbox live for this? It would require them to make sure you have internet on your console at all times. This is not that much of an issue on PC games as the people that are interested in the games usually have internet, and it's getting harder to imagine pure offline gaming on PC. On console it is still very much offline.
  • #66
    Quote from Nightmyst

    Is Microsoft willing to give up their paid Xbox live for this? It would require them to make sure you have internet on your console at all times. This is not that much of an issue on PC games as the people that are interested in the games usually have internet, and it's getting harder to imagine pure offline gaming on PC. On console it is still very much offline.
    You actually don't have to pay to be online with Xbox. Only you pay if you want to play multiplayer. Like there is a silver and gold account option. But still, it's just a really bad idea.

    I resent it even with D3. I have no intention of pirating D3 and I still insist on being able to play offline. It's atrocious otherwise.
  • #67
    Quote from Nokturnal1

    AND all i got from this is that you're a forum whore living with mom more worried about your comments and quotes than getting a career. see how easy it is to play this game

    What the hell's your problem? 100% of your interventions in this thread have either been pure trolling or 'simply' off-topic. You were the only one to mention piracy; you were the one accusing people who posted of being thieves; and for all I know the only music you play is on Guitar Hero....but I don't even care! So either contribute or piss off.

    (Finally) On topic: this whole thing is clearly a move by the major companies to cash-in on second-hand game sales, motivated by the incredibly stupid notion that every person that buys a 2nd hand game will, invariably, buy it new if they are unable to get it 2nd hand.
  • #68
    Quote from maka

    (Finally) On topic: this whole thing is clearly a move by the major companies to cash-in on second-hand game sales, motivated by the incredibly stupid notion that every person that buys a 2nd hand game will, invariably, buy it new if they are unable to get it 2nd hand.
    Never thought of that. But I hope that if this is true, that it bites them in the ass. One thing I hate worse than complete idiots are the greedy ones.
    I don't always burn. But when I do, I use hellfire.
  • #69
    Seems to me pretty much all has been covered here.
    I think the used car analogy has already been mentioned as well and which I think sums up the situation very nicely. The lobbying within the entertainment industry have stepped up their game these last years.
    However most of their so-called 'protective measures' seem to be motivated by extreme short-sightedness and greed.

    They are completely overlooking the free advertising they are getting through 'easy/discounted availability' of their products.

    I think it is difficult to argue against this case all the same, because while an estimate of lost sales through the 2nd hand games retail business can be easily(?) made, the same cannot be done of the advertisement value benefited by company/team behind the game.
    That's why I like referring to games that are currently being funded by fans. This is a testament to the real nature of what they mean to us.
    It's not a you-entertain-me-I-give-you-money one. It's a connection the creator of the game tries to form with the players. A story they wanted to share with you. An adventure they wanted you to take part in. Games, music, paintings are all forms of art and creativity that seeks to form that bond between the creator and the experimenter/viewer/consumer.
    This is how one becomes a fan. Why one likes talking about their favorite games/music and why they in turn want to share it with the rest of the world. And what makes them want to spend money on the product(or future ones).

    And there are also so many genres that would have remained unknown if it wasn't for that easy access to it for many individuals. Especially ones which don't have that immediate draw and can only be fully appreciated through actually experimenting it.

    With all that said, there are two components to the entertainment industry- the financial/publisher part and the creative(artists/game developers) one.
    These measures are seeing the day because the financial department has become so disjointed from the product-creation and public relation aspect, that decisions are being made to maximize profits without a complete understanding of the process.

    Even then though, commercial success is understandably among one of the objectives for companies. I just don't think they are going the right way about it.
  • #70
    Quote from maka

    Quote from Nokturnal1

    AND all i got from this is that you're a forum whore living with mom more worried about your comments and quotes than getting a career. see how easy it is to play this game

    What the hell's your problem? 100% of your interventions in this thread have either been pure trolling or 'simply' off-topic. You were the only one to mention piracy; you were the one accusing people who posted of being thieves; and for all I know the only music you play is on Guitar Hero....but I don't even care! So either contribute or piss off.

    (Finally) On topic: this whole thing is clearly a move by the major companies to cash-in on second-hand game sales, motivated by the incredibly stupid notion that every person that buys a 2nd hand game will, invariably, buy it new if they are unable to get it 2nd hand.


    Maka you're right. Thank you so much for pointing that out to me. I am so sorry. Yes all I do is sit at home, unemployed, at my moms house, playing guitar hero. I only slander other people on here because in reality im just a failure and I don't know what to do!!!!

    I'll start with some contribution: If I go to the store and buy a game. Its going to be mine for life. Yes. For example, I still own Poke'mon Snap for N64 and won't sell it. BECAUSE! When I make the decision, "I want to get this game" I have made sure I will work, pay, and collect for it. I don't own very many games because I am not that douche bag that buys everything he see's just cause its a game. I work hard and rationalize for every investment I put into anything to make sure its something I want. There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle I put together before finally saying, "Yes this is for me."
    If people get something and want the way I do, there wouldn't be this need of "god dammit I made a mistake, ILL JUST SELL IT BAK ROFL!" to or because they get bored of it or whatever. Stop being so impulsive with your cash. How can I break this down to nerds?

    In Diablo2 you have to be very particular in how you distribute your skill points correct? If you weren't you PAID for it :D
  • #71
    Quote from Nokturnal1

    Yes all I do is sit at home, unemployed, at my moms house, playing guitar hero. I only slander other people on here because in reality im just a failure and I don't know what to do!!!!
    Honestly, it's okay if you live with your mom. No one's going to judge you.

    Quote from Nokturnal1

    If I go to the store and buy a game. Its going to be mine for life. Yes. For example, I still own Poke'mon Snap for N64 and won't sell it. BECAUSE! When I make the decision, "I want to get this game" I have made sure I will work, pay, and collect for it. I don't own very many games because I am not that douche bag that buys everything he see's just cause its a game.
    Why is it one extreme or the other? Why must you either get all vested and research all your purchases and plan to own it for life OR be a douchebag and impulsively buy everything just because it's new? Where is the middle ground with you?

    Quote from Nokturnal1

    I work hard and rationalize for every investment I put into anything to make sure its something I want. There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle I put together before finally saying, "Yes this is for me."
    Because you feel this way, isn't that more reason to support being able to buy or borrow used games for console? You're describing not being impulsive and putting thought into your purchases. The way others may not be impulsive is to not buy a new game as soon as it comes out but one day settle for a used copy. And this is bad according to you, yes? I mean, once a game is paid for, the producer has been compensated for that single copy. So as long as there isn't a copy of that copy being made, how is the producer being cheated? If someone buys a used game, they're not getting it new. That's the catch. But the new version of that copy was once paid for and thus the developer of that copy was compensated for it.

    Quote from Nokturnal1

    If people get something and want the way I do, there wouldn't be this need of "god dammit I made a mistake
    Yes, we must all treasure our games as investments. Cause there's no way in hell someone would ever buy Poke'mon Snap on an impulse. Such a lofty purchase requires serious research and soul searching. Because that's what consumerism is always about. Not ever being impulsive, but thinking very very carefully about every single thing you buy because you're gonna own it for life, or at least, you BETTER own it for life!

    Quote from Nokturnal1

    ILL JUST SELL IT BAK ROFL!" to or because they get bored of it or whatever. Stop being so impulsive with your cash.

    How can I break this down to nerds?
    Well to start you can stop equating anyone considering selling a game they own as complete foaming at the mouth retards. For one thing I suspect you're overestimating how many people try to sell games. For many it's not even worth it trying to sell or exchange. If you sell it online, you gotta post the ad, be ready to ship it, and be ready to lower your price since there's always a bunch of other people selling the exact same thing anyway. I think most people are willing to live with their purchases even if they didn't research them as extensively as you claim to do. And all that aside, none of it matters because the developer has already been compensated for their content when they sold it new.


    Quote from Nokturnal1

    In Diablo2 you have to be very particular in how you distribute your skill points correct? If you weren't you PAID for it :D
    Well not anymore, with the whole respeccing feature.
  • #72
    I think you're reading into things per usual. Its called Sarcasm.. jeeze get a girlfriend
  • #73
    Gotta wonder if Nintendo could be the big equalizer here. I could see microsoft and sony getting greedy and run out of town by good ol nintendo. :P
    "I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
    -Equinox

    "We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
    -Winged
  • #74
    Quote from Umpa

    Gotta wonder if Nintendo could be the big equalizer here. I could see microsoft and sony getting greedy and run out of town by good ol nintendo. :P


    You know how much money Nintendo could make if they allowed me to buy Zelda ALTTP off of steam?! I'd buy all those games!
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChB2_IPc-HVXbi0jS1Riljg
    ^ YouTube.Com/IceBleuGaming ! It's a thing! Check it oooout!
  • #75
    Quote from Drkclone

    Quote from maka

    (Finally) On topic: this whole thing is clearly a move by the major companies to cash-in on second-hand game sales, motivated by the incredibly stupid notion that every person that buys a 2nd hand game will, invariably, buy it new if they are unable to get it 2nd hand.
    Never thought of that. But I hope that if this is true, that it bites them in the ass. One thing I hate worse than complete idiots are the greedy ones.


    I really think it will bite them in the ass. There are MANY, many games, I'd wager 95% or more of them that are put out, that I will never pay $60 for. Now if somebody is selling their copy for cheap, sure I might try it out if it slightly interests me. But because I bought a used copy, that doesn't mean I'm cheating the developers. The person I bought it from already paid full price, and since he will no longer be with a copy then it doesn't matter at all.

    Again I'll bring up used cars. All you people yelling that buying second hand is screwing people out of money, do you buy used cars? Did you parents give you a car? *Gasp!* You didn't pay for that car! You're screwing that company out of money! Same goes for everything else, like used books, used movies, old CD's. If I was the owner of a car / band / video game developer / book, I'd be happy people are buying it second hand. I already got paid for the initial item, and even though I don't make money off of the re-sale, it means more people are buying / reading / listening / playing my stuff. That could even lead to that person loving whatever they get, and buying their next purchase brand new.

    I just really, really don't understand this argument that we shouldn't be allowed to buy used stuff, in this case specifically games.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChB2_IPc-HVXbi0jS1Riljg
    ^ YouTube.Com/IceBleuGaming ! It's a thing! Check it oooout!
  • #76
    I think most of what need to be said has been said but as a person involved in the development of software I can tell you first hand many companies just don't understand second hand sales or pirated copies of their software. I've seen it time and time again. Please remember that many companies (especially large ones) are run by business type people and not (as i'll put it here) "computer people" (this is how i was referred to once when trying to make a point about software piracy to a CFO).

    The simple fact is many of these decisions are about their bottom line (which is fine). They see a segment of the market that they wish to get in on and increase their profits. Now lets take an extreme example, if they get 5 % of the used/pirated copies to buy new thats a 5% increase in sales (assuming no loss from people disagreeing with their tactics). Now also lets take into account that while video games have a high used/pirate rate they are but a drop in the bucket for software or items in general (books is my favourite example here). Some software has a 99%+ piracy rate. This just happens and is a cost of doing business. And as i mentioned above it also has to do with an understanding that not everyone who will buy used or pirate will buy the game at full price.

    The problem is when it becomes illegal to sell used. Thats just crazy. Some would like it that way. If you disagree with it, honestly, talk to your representatives in office and make your case. Many stores would like to say that you cannot return games, well when those policies infringe on your rights as consumers guess which one has actual priority.

    Guess what, there are a lot of gamers out there. Online petitions and forum talk is great but if you don't like the path the RIAA and other groups are trying to head it down, get involved. There are quite a few of us who are against them and if enough of us get involved things change. I saw the results of the backlash against many of the new laws in the US. It made politicians think (and not all of them are evil and two faced). The key point is talking their language and showing them that these types of practices and paths will be fought.

    Oh and as a last point I buy most of my games new (over 95%) and the ones I got used were console games that were not on the shelf any longer. It would be great if we could get all the old games we want new but sometimes thats just not the case (hell making sure they work,*cough nes flashing screen cough*, is hard enough).

    The most important thing i can say out of all this is get the real facts. Don't believe mine or anyone elses. Go read the reports, go look at the data and try to come to a decision that is based on data and then act on it. Cause we all know that 99% of all facts said on the internet are made up and the amount of garbage information or prose is insane.

    K
  • #77
    misiceman: apart from a great post overall, you touched a great point: games that just aren't available anymore as new copies. What are people supposed to do then?
  • #78
    As far as I'm aware, the problem with selling used games is not the used game itself. The problem lies in the fact that retailers keep 100% of the profit from a used game, and the developer doesn't receive anything. They only get from the initial (and unused) game. I believe it was TotalBiscuit (A.k.a. CynicalBrit) who once talked about this subject, after having been in the industry itself.

    Admittedly I have not researched it myself. But if that's the truth, then no wonder the manufacturers wants to stop it. If a game gets sold 2-3 times during it's lifetime, but the manufacturer only gets paid the first, then it's a bad cycle. After a little while most gamers would try to buy their game used, or for a cheaper price, and the game itself would stop selling new copies (or at a rather reduced rate anyway). This way the retailers are directly stealing from the manufacturer, who get's hurt by the system.

    If it was me, I would do everything I could to make sure that whenever someone bought my product, that the money would actually go to me. So i can't blame the manufacturers.
  • #79
    Quote from Nordicus

    Admittedly I have not researched it myself. But if that's the truth, then no wonder the manufacturers wants to stop it. If a game gets sold 2-3 times during it's lifetime, but the manufacturer only gets paid the first, then it's a bad cycle. After a little while most gamers would try to buy their game used, or for a cheaper price, and the game itself would stop selling new copies (or at a rather reduced rate anyway). This way the retailers are directly stealing from the manufacturer, who get's hurt by the system.

    Then the developer or distributor has to think for a few minutes and come up with a solution how to get a piece of the used software cake. For example: Buy the used copies of your game for a certain price or if you are distributor give them credits on their account to buy other games from you.
    You'd still have to get rid of all those used copies (or trash them and only sell new ones :P), but you'd get into those 100% profitmargins (which dont account for the price you pay to the customer for their used game).
  • #80
    Quote from Nordicus

    As far as I'm aware, the problem with selling used games is not the used game itself. The problem lies in the fact that retailers keep 100% of the profit from a used game, and the developer doesn't receive anything. They only get from the initial (and unused) game. I believe it was TotalBiscuit (A.k.a. CynicalBrit) who once talked about this subject, after having been in the industry itself.

    Admittedly I have not researched it myself. But if that's the truth, then no wonder the manufacturers wants to stop it. If a game gets sold 2-3 times during it's lifetime, but the manufacturer only gets paid the first, then it's a bad cycle. After a little while most gamers would try to buy their game used, or for a cheaper price, and the game itself would stop selling new copies (or at a rather reduced rate anyway). This way the retailers are directly stealing from the manufacturer, who get's hurt by the system.

    If it was me, I would do everything I could to make sure that whenever someone bought my product, that the money would actually go to me. So i can't blame the manufacturers.

    First of all, you can't trample on a fundamental right (selling your property) just because a handful of companies are making good money selling used games.

    You say that after a while, people would only buy used games. Two things wrong with this: one, used games have been around for decades, and so far your prediction hasn't come true; and two, if nobody buys new games (and then sell them), then there aren't any used games to buy :P
    And it's not like buying new games only has advantages. For one, you have to wait for a while before you can play the game.

    This way the retailers are directly stealing from the manufacturer, who get's hurt by the system.

    Again, this assumes that people that buy 2nd hand would buy new if 2nd hand wasn't available. That's just not true.
    And yes, I can blame manufacturers. Wanting to cash-in multiple times on a single copy is flat-out greed. They want to stop these 2nd hand game stores making all the money? Here's a possible solution: start lowering game prices. Some games have no right being prices as high as they are; and most games' price should start to come down sooner that it does. It's insane to see one or one and a half year old games priced the same as new ones.
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