Prove to me that your God exists.

  • #1087
    The desire of the human mind for their to be something greater than themselves is quite amusing... The general populace strive to have that divine entity that created and guides this universe, and claim that without it there is no morality or some such non-sense.

    Physics has proven quite adept at explaining every detail of this universe, and with time we will have all the little details ironed out that completely nullify any little gap your religious beliefs may cling to. Currently there are only 2 gaps that religion can cling to, 1 creation of the universe, we have a very solid theory and the more recent discoveries add credence to the theories on creation..and 2 the purpose of life.

    The first gap is easily closed by science, the second is a philosophical gap, one that only even exists because of our advanced cognitive reasoning skills. Remove our abilities to identify self, and greed, love, and etc and you have a base primate specie, but because of our enlarged and quite talented brain we have the ability of introspection and in turn can question our very existence.

    If you try and say that is evidence for a creator then you clearly do not understand evolution, if you try and claim the irreducible complexity argument then you REALLY do not understand evolution. For those trying the watchmaker argument, sorry that is just childish and feeble. Go look through an electron microscope at the matrix created in the formation of a stone. show me a more intricate and precise formation then that of a diamond, absolute perfection in its form... yeah we know exactly how it is made, and there is no divine creator, it is just natural physical laws that create it.

    And for the whole "god created the big bang"... seriously? you are going the cause and effect route? okay then God was the effect of what cause? And if you place the supernatural quality on god then guess what, you are going to need incredible evidence for his existence...

    You claiming your god exists requires you to prove it, independently without the aid of your bible, which has been proven time and time again to be full of fairy tales and imaginations. So pretty much if you are a muslim, jew, christian, hindu or what ever religious belief you hold they are nothing more then the personal delusions of yourself that allow you to tolerate your existence instead of embracing the amazing complexity that is live and just having some fun know that there is no true answer to the purpose of life beyond what you make.
  • #1088
    And why are there natural physical laws?

    I cannot empirically prove God's existence, just as you cannot empirically disprove his existence.
  • #1089
    heh so your god is in the same boat as dragons, unicorns, odin, thor, Zeus, osiris, anubis, Mardok, My little pony, dragon ballz and anything else that you can claim as real but it is impossible to prove false...

    Example of true evidence procedures... FTL neutrinos... they detected them but didnt believe it possible, but they also did not toss it out.. they submitted their results for peer review, so thousands of others could all dig thru the data, run the same tests... after a while everyone else was getting the standard expected results and only that 1 facility got the FTL neutrinos... and after they went back over their equipment for the 100th time they found out... they had a bad cable one a timing component and it was what threw everything off..

    That is real, claiming a book is real and then ignore any and all evidence to the contrary is ignorance bordering on stupidity. You religion claims nothing new or original, every single ounce of modern day religions was claimed in a previous faith, hindu is the closest of all faiths to having a semi original belief system since it is quite a nice bit older then Judeo-christian beliefs but even it has pulled from the local customs and beliefs that pre-dated it.

    so to be honest your bible is nothing more the copyright infringement at best and shitty plagiarism at worst... there is no truth within it, there is not an ounce of morality to be gleaned from it that did not exist before it... As for where do natural laws come from? that is in the realm of science cannot answer as of yet.. they were in place due directly from the events of the Big bang and so once we figure that out we will figure out why the physical laws are the way they are...
  • #1090
    Quote from Ireth

    You missed the point on all accounts. You keep deflecting instead of answering the questions or stating your beliefs. And still more lies about the Church are spread.


    Seeing as I don't actually have any "beliefs," that is, non-evidential claims to knowledge, I think you either misunderstood what I wrote, or you're simply being disingenuous.

    Quote from Ireth

    "...proud intellectual badge of honor"? Why are you so proud of choosing a position based on 'empirical' evidence? You claim a religious man a fool, but to look at the universe and all its complexities, to look at the human species and our DNA, to look our lives and not see the need and desire for a loving, omnipotent creator is foolish. How can you look at the Big Bang and not see a creator?


    Because empirical evidence is all we have. It is the only way that I can take an idea I have, test it, and pass it to others for the same testing and further scrutiny. It is the only way to seriously pursue knowledge. We may not gain an "ultimate" understanding of rocks through geology, but we learn more about geological processes with each passing year. Gaining more knowledge about the universe is obviously preferable to accepting that we can't know anything about it. You could not be on a computer, on the internet, and using a keyboard, without the aid of empiricism. None of those inventions would have been made without people questioning the nature of the world we live in and seeking to know more about it.

    To say something as absurd as "look at all the complexity," implying that the universe is simply too magnificent to learn anything about it, is to deny the intellect that evolution developed in our species. We have the capacity to learn more about the origin of the universe, substituting a creator and implying the job is there-by done: that's nothing short of willful ignorance


    Quote from Ireth

    Quote from proletaria

    In perfect honesty, I find you asking why I reject such a church to be almost fascicle.


    "I do not think it means what you think it means." -Inigo Montoya


    Good catch on that typo. I meant farcical. ;)

    Quote from Ireth

    And why are there natural physical laws?

    I cannot empirically prove God's existence, just as you cannot empirically disprove his existence.


    And yet the claim, admittedly impossible to prove, has been used as justification for slavery, homophobia, subjugation of women, war on other religious groups, war on other ethnic groups, anti-abortion, anti-medicine, and anti-science movements the world over, just to name a few.

    For such an obviously vacuous claim, it appears that a whole lot has been argued with a basis in that irrational assumption.
  • #1091
    Quote from Belphanoir

    heh so your god is in the same boat as dragons, unicorns, odin, thor, Zeus, osiris, anubis, Mardok, My little pony, dragon ballz and anything else that you can claim as real but it is impossible to prove false...

    Example of true evidence procedures... FTL neutrinos... they detected them but didnt believe it possible, but they also did not toss it out.. they submitted their results for peer review, so thousands of others could all dig thru the data, run the same tests... after a while everyone else was getting the standard expected results and only that 1 facility got the FTL neutrinos... and after they went back over their equipment for the 100th time they found out... they had a bad cable one a timing component and it was what threw everything off..

    That is real, claiming a book is real and then ignore any and all evidence to the contrary is ignorance bordering on stupidity. You religion claims nothing new or original, every single ounce of modern day religions was claimed in a previous faith, hindu is the closest of all faiths to having a semi original belief system since it is quite a nice bit older then Judeo-christian beliefs but even it has pulled from the local customs and beliefs that pre-dated it.

    so to be honest your bible is nothing more the copyright infringement at best and shitty plagiarism at worst... there is no truth within it, there is not an ounce of morality to be gleaned from it that did not exist before it... As for where do natural laws come from? that is in the realm of science cannot answer as of yet.. they were in place due directly from the events of the Big bang and so once we figure that out we will figure out why the physical laws are the way they are...


    I do not claim it is real on the basis that it is impossible to prove false. Do you realize that the early chuch was spread by men who gave up their lives to travel from city to city and teach about the life of Jesus; that most of these men died as martyrs because they would not recant their faith is Jesus Christ? Do you believe in anything in this world by which you would stake your life and well being before denying it, even if just in appearance? To say the Catholic Church was started as a fairly tale means to control a population is just wrong.

    How can you claim Catholicism is not original? You obviously know little about it.
  • #1092
    Quote from Ireth


    How can you claim Catholicism is not original? You obviously know little about it.


    Based on discovered writings, Hinduism is the oldest religion by at least 3000 thousand years (compared to Catholicism). Personally I think paganism was around much earlier than that, but there was no "bible" written for this belief at the time.
    Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
  • #1093
    Quote from proletaria

    Because empirical evidence is all we have. It is the only way that I can take an idea I have, test it, and pass it to others for the same testing and further scrutiny. It is the only way to seriously pursue knowledge. We may not gain an "ultimate" understanding of rocks through geology, but we learn more about geological processes with each passing year. Gaining more knowledge about the universe is obviously preferable to accepting that we can't know anything about it. You could not be on a computer, on the internet, and using a keyboard, without the aid of empiricism. None of those inventions would have been made without people questioning the nature of the world we live in and seeking to know more about it.

    To say something as absurd as "look at all the complexity," implying that the universe is simply too magnificent to learn anything about it, is to deny the intellect that evolution developed in our species. We have the capacity to learn more about the origin of the universe, substituting a creator and implying the job is there-by done: that's nothing short of willful ignorance


    I do not believe we should throw up our arms at the complexity of the universe, quite the opposite. The advancement of science is a great thing. When an engineer looks at a bridge, he also understands the time, thought, and work that went into building it. When a computer programmer plays a new video game, he understands how involved and complex the code is that allows the game to function. When I look at the wonders of this world I see design. Science is reverse engineering.

    Quote from proletaria

    And yet the claim, admittedly impossible to prove, has been used as justification for slavery, homophobia, subjugation of women, war on other religious groups, war on other ethnic groups, anti-abortion, anti-medicine, and anti-science movements the world over, just to name a few.

    For such an obviously vacuous claim, it appears that a whole lot has been argued with a basis in that irrational assumption.


    When has Catholicism used its theology as justification for any of these except anti-abortion? I am not arguing for monotheism, I am arguing for Catholicism. Anti-abortion groups are not limited to religious groups. Secular society also has pro-lifers.
  • #1094
    Quote from Slayerviper

    Based on discovered writings, Hinduism is the oldest religion by at least 3000 thousand years (compared to Catholicism). Personally I think paganism was around much earlier than that, but there was no "bible" written for this belief at the time.


    Hinduism and Catholicism are both religions; other than that, they have very little in common.
  • #1095
    heh did you know that Jesus was added to the list of different personifications of brahma within Hinduism? just a tidbit for similarities.. As for the Christians being martyrs and tortured mercilessly for refusing to recant their faith..yeah that is some propaganda right there..

    Most christians were not tortured for refusal to recant their faith, the romans (the ruling elite when the religion started) did not give two shits about recanting your belief..they let all those they conquered keep their faiths, they just required taxes and tributes to be paid...

    And since the christians were quite the little terrorist back then, they caught some extra flak, add to it they were seen as an upstart cult (on par with how most christians view mormonism or a little less credit even) and people like Nero (who was a nut case anyways) used the early christians as a scapegoat for some of his actions.

    The christians never had this massive time period of tortured rough existence, though you people sure do like to claim it. And as for the catholic church and doing good??? HAHAHAHAHAHAH they have much more dirt on their hands then good in the bank. Support for slavery since it was commonplace (even got details in your bible explaining how to treat and trade your slaves), or the backing of genocides (crusaders could be called no less), oh i know how about the repeated overthrowing of established countries, and cultures all for their own coffers?

    And as to your statement of me not being familiar with catholics since i state they are far from original.. mmm yeah i got a pretty good clue on them, studied them for quite a few decades now. Their history is not some glorious passage of suffering and enduring through the blights... they had a short term of being below notice, and then a even shorter term of being considered a cult, and finally getting a lovely little perk of "lets editted ever living crap out of every inch of this book to make it conform and adapt to the concepts of domination and leadership"... which is why constantine supported the faith and placed it as the official religion of the empire.

    You want to know why so many turned to the original tennets of christianity? not cause of the catholics (which did not come about for many many years, but due to things such as the Gnostic scriptures, preaching peace and goodwill, treating the meek as kings, and the rich giving everything up to help the poor...

    What poor man in their right mind would not want that? free money, food, clothes..shit yeah let me have that. Once the catholic church came about post constantine they were no longer of those values. they had nothing but greedy and power mongering in their history.... And with quite a few of those considered good deeds actually being the results of horrendous actions... Such as the conversion of ireland... nicely destroying an entire culture to make it conform.. or the Mayans, incas, and let us not forget the pillaging of the southeast asian regions...

    Please do inform me where the catholic church has a long standing history of great and kind deeds.. was it their support of the US Slave trade? how bout the backing of the Nazi's? oh i know the spreading of lies that condoms cause cancer in Africa impeding the prevention of AIDs spread... Ooo how about their tacit acceptance of pedophilia within their priesthood and the pope himself helping hide away confirmed child molestors? please do elaborate for me...
  • #1096
    I believe in God or an all powerful entity. I don't know what it is, where it came from, or WHY. You asked me to prove to prove to you that my God exists. I don't know if I can prove to you that my God exists, I can only show you what was proven to me that my God exists. This may be lengthy but I hope it is worth the read.

    Background: I was raised in a Pentacostal household. Growing up I was exposed to religion at a young age and saw a lot of things that were quite frightening to me as a child. As I grew older, I kept waiting for things to happen to me. I kept waiting to feel overwhelmed in church and do the things that others in my religion were doing. It never happened, and I felt that I was lost. Eventually in my mind I decided that none of it was real and that it was an act. I wouldn't admit it, but its what I felt deep down.

    In 1998 I was living in North Carolina. I was young, had a wife and a child and was working a job barely over minimum wage to pay for food and rent. I worked the late shift and left work around 7:15 AM every morning. On my way home one morning, I was listening to the radio and heard the DJ announce that they would be giving away $3,000 to a listener that day. I later found out they were doing this every day that month. The contest was simple, they announced the 3 songs to listen for and you had to be the 77th caller when the third song began to play.

    When I arrived home, I half heartedly told my wife about the 3 songs, and I went to bed. Normally I slept until around 3:00 PM. On this day, I woke up around 1:00 PM and was lying there listening to the radio. Thats when the first song came on the radio. I didn't think anything of it until that song went off and the second song came on. I knew then that this was the 3 songs to listen for. I didn't even know the radio station, I only knew it was based out of Winston Salem. I dialed 411, explaining to the operator that I was looking for a rock station out of Winston Salem. They gave me the call letters and decided that was the right one, at which point they gave me the number. I hung up and dialed the radio station. Busy signal. I dialed again. Another busy signal. I dialed a third time and it rang probably 10 times before the DJ picked up the phone and announced that I was the winner.

    Awesome! We just won $3,000, things were already tight in the house so this would help out tremendously. After taxes we would probably net around $2,200.

    Two weeks go by and after the proper paper work and release forms signed we received the money.

    The day after receiving the money, I was preparing to leave for work around 10:30 PM. It was November and very cold out so I went out ot start the car. We had a fairly new car, a 1998 Dodge Neon. The car would not start, battery appeard to be dead. I had been living in the area only a few months and had no friend or family around. I tried finding a neighbor with some jumper cables. Finally I called my boss to tell her I was going to be late for work at which point I phoned a cab.

    At 11:20 PM the cab company still had not shown up at which point I called them back. As soon as I hung up the phone, it rang. It was my wife's aunt with bad news. My 19 year old brother in law had passed away. She recanted immediately and said that they were working with him in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. It was a horrible call to receive and horrible news that I had to somehow tell my wife that her brother may or may not be dead. I told my wife we had to go home (a four hour drive) that her brother was on his way to the hospital. I phoned my boss, telling her that we had a family emergency and needed to go home.

    At this point I went back outside to the car and tried starting it again. This time, the car started without issue. I had tried to start this car several times over the past hour.

    We packed quickly and we were on our way. I stopped to get gas just before getting on the interstate. A stranger was pumping gas beside me and struck up a conversation. The only thing I remember from the conversation was him saying "It's a clear night tonight. It's one of those nights you can move on at 90mph and not worry about a thing". Thats what I remember from the conversation and just how calm he was and how calm I felt after speaking with him.

    A few hours later the ER doctor confirmed that my brother in law had been brought in, and that he was DOA.

    Over the next couple days, we made funeral arrangements. No-one in my wifes family had the money to pay for a funeral so it fell to us. We ended up using the money we'd won from the radio station to pay for the funeral rather than letting the state put him in a pine box.

    Let's recap the story -
    I won money from a radio station used two weeks later to pay for my brother in law's funeral. I didn't even have the number to this radio station. I didn't even know the name. Do you realize how many people had the number memorized, written down beside them, or on speed dial?

    My car would not start, causing me to be late for work and receive a horrible phone call that my wife would have otherwise received, alone with a 2 year old. Upon receiving the news, somehow the car starts.

    A complete stranger gave me a calming message. In hindsight it wasn't important that we drove fast to get there, at the time it was of the utmost importance.

    I know this was a long story, and probably a "Cool Story". And it doesn't answer your question. I can't prove to you that my God exists. To me, these events proved one thing to me. That something far greater is in control. Far greater than you or I. I tell this story when I'm challenged about life, religion, or the big question of Why? It doesn't answer any of that. It just tells ME that there's something else to life and that we should not spend it arguing about who's right or wrong.

    These days I spend time meditating and trying to communicate appreciation for the life I have, my family and friends. As for religion, I believe that many can hold a framework of communicating ways for humanity to live with and love each other. The internet saddens me at times and I worry about our future. I pray that whoever you are in this life, you should look at your hands, look at everything around you and question "Why did anything have to exist in the first place?". Sometimes it doesn't hurt to just have a little faith. Thanks for reading.
  • #1097
    Quote from Ireth

    I do not believe we should throw up our arms at the complexity of the universe, quite the opposite. The advancement of science is a great thing. When an engineer looks at a bridge, he also understands the time, thought, and work that went into building it. When a computer programmer plays a new video game, he understands how involved and complex the code is that allows the game to function. When I look at the wonders of this world I see design. Science is reverse engineering.


    Unfortunately for your design theory, evolution has proved to be a very well-evidenced theory for how the universe and everything in it developed. You can, of course, see patterns where none actually exist. I see neat things in the clouds all the time. But your intuition is far from a legitimate critique of scientific understanding.

    Quote from Ireth

    When has Catholicism used its theology as justification for any of these except anti-abortion? I am not arguing for monotheism, I am arguing for Catholicism. Anti-abortion groups are not limited to religious groups. Secular society also has pro-lifers.


    You should study a little bit of world history. The justification for the European enslavement of Africans, and the Native Americans who were subjugated (and massacred), was made by the Catholic Church. Conquistadors were given writ to convert and/or enslave natives and Africans were fast-tracked to slavery by means of the Noah myth (descendants of Ham). Catholic zealots were the antagonists of countless ethnic wars from the first crusade right on up to the Balkan conflicts which saw militant Catholics (in holy orders) attempting to snuff out their Muslim neighbors in Bosnia. I could go on, but I think you get the point.


    Quote from cdaxis212

    I know this was a long story, and probably a "Cool Story". And it doesn't answer your question. I can't prove to you that my God exists. To me, these events proved one thing to me. That something far greater is in control. Far greater than you or I. I tell this story when I'm challenged about life, religion, or the big question of Why? It doesn't answer any of that. It just tells ME that there's something else to life and that we should not spend it arguing about who's right or wrong.

    These days I spend time meditating and trying to communicate appreciation for the life I have, my family and friends. As for religion, I believe that many can hold a framework of communicating ways for humanity to live with and love each other. The internet saddens me at times and I worry about our future. I pray that whoever you are in this life, you should look at your hands, look at everything around you and question "Why did anything have to exist in the first place?". Sometimes it doesn't hurt to just have a little faith. Thanks for reading.


    I am very much fighting the urge to use that phrase, but I will resist. In any event, you appear to be intelligent enough to realize none of those events was proof of the divine or that there is a plan for you or I. The part of this that really strikes me, is that you appear to have some real appreciation for the fact you could pay for the funeral, but the death itself is a footnote. Apparently, the plan was to kill one of your relatives (God did this, I would assume?) in order to give you a grandiose feeling of security or perhaps purpose? I can't quite grapple with which dots you connected to bring yourself to these conclusions, but as I said, I think you are just as aware as I am that you experienced nothing miraculous or even overly coincidental.

    The question you pose is not just silly, it's paradoxical. Why did any of us have to exist? We didn't. It's obvious that, for most of human history, people died in childbirth and before they were old enough to really remember anything, all the time. It is due to the evolution of our species that we are in such a position to speculate on these matters. Chocking it all up to a deity or a cosmic force wrests all the credit due to our ancestors for some imaginary being for which we have zero evidence.

    Sometimes it does not hurt to have a little "faith" in something or someone you know very little about. I trust the police to keep me safe because I have seen them arrest criminals. I don't have an intimate knowledge of every cop, some might be crooked, but I have a little faith that they'll get the job done. If you want to call that "faith," instead of a reasonable expectation, be my guest. However; it is never a good idea to have blind faith in something you know nothing about, certainly not if that something is not even evident to exist in the first place.
  • #1098
    @cdaxis212: I could read your story and say, "Wow, this happened near Winston-Salem which is where I live (and that's actually true, btw), so it's a sign that I was meant to read this. Plus, there's an awful lot of coincidence in that story so maybe I should rethink the whole faith thing."

    Here's the rub though. So many different things happen every day in each of our lives that we are almost all bound to have a series of coincidences similar to your story eventually. If we call it a 1/10,000 chance for a confluence of events like that to occur in a given day, then we can expect that on average, we should each see something like this roughly every 27 1/2 years. And frankly, I don't think there's even that small of a chance of something like this happening when you consider all of the possible coincidences which could have happened and didn't.

    Lets say I get past that though. So you won the radio contest due to God's intervention and thus had the money to bury your family member intead of having the State do it. Is that the most important thing that money could have possibly done considering the situations of every person in the listening area? Could that money perhaps have saved someone's life, for example, and if so, why did God decide your need was more important? For that matter, if God wanted to help your family, wouldn't you have been better served by not having your brother-in-law die in the first place?

    Of course, we can rely on the old standby which says that we don't know God's plan and maybe there's some much worse series of events which would result from your brother-in-law not having died. That always seems like a cop-out to me though which people use when they realize a reasonable analysis would have to include significant doubt. Plus, it just leads us back to square one anyway which is that maybe it's true and maybe it's not.
    ...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
  • #1099
    religion is just another form of out dated government. its the cause for hate crimes. it is the cause of war. it is the cause of subjugation. science is the answer to your questions, as its based off of fact. anything else is propaganda.

    atheist for the win

    PS... if religion was never created. the world would be a much more peaceful place.
  • #1100
    I doubt the planet would be more peaceful without religion.. maybe less bloodshed but i highly doubt the aggressive nature of humans was brought about purely by the creation of religion.

    Yes religion fueled that fire quite profusely, but humans by nature are an aggressive specie with an inherit violence within us.. There would have been fewer wars most def but i just have this weird feeling humans would be just as violent...
  • #1101
    This thread is annoying, as if someone wanted to prove, desperately and arrogantly that god actually exists. Notice the similarities.

    Believe what you want, but keep it for yourself. Else you are just making fun of yourself, because athiesm got nothing to do with science(athiests are just using this as argument and thats wrong).
  • #1102
    Quote from Belphanoir

    I doubt the planet would be more peaceful without religion.. maybe less bloodshed but i highly doubt the aggressive nature of humans was brought about purely by the creation of religion.


    I would doubt the intellectual honesty of anyone who said religion could completely disappear or that in the event world peace would follow. That said, it's just as dishonest to propose there is nothing to gain by a more secular and rational world.

    Quote from Belphanoir

    Yes religion fueled that fire quite profusely, but humans by nature are an aggressive specie with an inherit violence within us.. There would have been fewer wars most def but i just have this weird feeling humans would be just as violent...


    There are conflicts over any resource scarcity or difference of opinion, granted, but the important point being made is that aggression over completely irrational dogmas is unnecessary and plentiful. I don't think it follows that the world would be "just as violent," without so much religious fervor.


    Quote from Ludo_frodo

    This thread is annoying, as if someone wanted to prove, desperately and arrogantly that god actually exists. Notice the similarities.


    Sounds like you have nothing to contribute, but thanks for participating. I appreciate the bump if nothing else.

    Quote from Ludo_frodo

    Believe what you want, but keep it for yourself. Else you are just making fun of yourself, because athiesm got nothing to do with science(athiests are just using this as argument and thats wrong).


    Fortunately that isn't a rule. I am glad to see people discuss their beliefs because they impact all our lives by way of evangelism and cultural constructs that branch from them. I may be arguing to dissuade people from irrational thought processes, but I would much rather have that argument than know everyone was so closed minded as to not even address such a prescient issue. I guess you missed the dozens of posts elaborating on the point that atheism is not a belief system, in much the same way that not walking is a mode of transportation.

    It's true you don't need to have an advanced knowledge of science to disprove theism (philosophers were able to do that as far back as the ancient Greeks), but science gives us a model upon which to better understand the things which theism once claimed as their own area of expertise. Therefor it makes a very effective means of disproving irrational claims.
  • #1103
    This whole thread is like pissing into the wind.
  • #1104
    Quote from NeutroNova

    This whole thread is like pissing into the wind.


    What's wrong with that? Your statement is something similar to "if I eat organic food I'll never get cancer", just another useless bump.
    Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
  • #1105
    sorry for the vague statement by me on just as violent... it is hard to explain i guess. Humans as a specie display violence, and anger to the most idiotic things, and the most righteous as well.. Those extremist that use religion to act out violence, they would be just as violent in my opinion (key word there) with or without religion. I dislike religion in general cause it makes it more acceptable to discriminate, degrade and promote violence towards others that do not believe in the same bullshit as you.

    But i still believe humanity as a general whole would still have that violent tilt. you have countries in europe and asia with very low levels of religious fervor, especially compared to america, and on the surface they have a general increased level of peacefulness. Till you start going in to the country and really looking, the violence, anger and desire to act upon it are all there.. just suppressed, or re-directed to a degree or another.

    Eliminating religion is a step in the right direct to reducing the violence, it removes the easy excuse, the lazy ignorant shit can no longer say "kill him cause he doesnt believe in my god".. now he has to find some new motivator, some new excuse.. and maybe just maybe in time it will cause them to think through a better response then violence but with how humans are at this moment in time, i just struggle to see it.

    Maybe if humans would have eliminated the belief in myths earlier in our history we would be less prone to violence, but again.. Alexander did not conquer for religion, Ghengis Khan did not conquer for religion... Napoleon was actually an agnostic / atheist and conquered huge swaths of land.

    I hope my idea came across better in this, i am not in any way supporting the existence of religion, but i do not believe it is the reason we are so violent... just the reason we are less advanced then we could be science wise.
  • #1106
    Everyone has their own faith. I know that there's no god and that is a simple truth to me, I don't go around ever thinking about religion or when I see a person I don't think what beliefs he has but see him as a human. There's nothing that can ever change that. To me the current religions are nothing more than mythology, litterature, childrens stories. I can understand that people believe in a god or some kind of energy flow but when I think of it their simply wrong. And that's OK, it's fine! You can at any point think that I'm wrong and that's OK too!

    I believe that to religious people God is a simple truth and nothing will ever change that, they can't explain it or maybe they can, but it doesn't really matter to them because it is the truth.

    The difference between religion and science is very, very small.

    They both try to explain the world, they both have authorities such as priests or scientists, and we believe in the text of both science and religion without really understanding how, why, etc.

    The big differences is that scientists don't see their discoveries as definite, they try to prove themselves wrong all the time. While religion has a much stronger sense of belonging and community and they have rituals with people of the same faith.

    Defining a religion is very hard but there's a number of things that they all have. Authority, holy symbols, gatherings or rituals. This makes christianity a religion with priests, bibles/cross etc, prayer and church gatherings. But at the same time football is a religion. You have the players, the football, stadium for playing with their own rituals and national anthems etc.

    On a more ranty note though, religion can be so full of shit. Like the christian church, I have nothing against the religion and people who have the faith. But more what the christian church as a company has done to hurt mankind, absolutely absurd. And as a atheist I don't understand how you can take a literal quote such at " It's as easy for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, as a rich man to come into heaven ". And yet there's these christian authority figures sitting of loads of money corrupt as fuck. The bible is some kind of smorgosboard where you can pick and choose what sounds most benefitial.

    And you hear about people killing in the name of their god. What the fuck? If you have a almighty god why would you need to help him with such a pathetic thing as to kill someone.

    Then there's the theodice problem. How can god be almighty if there's evil in the world? The most common explaination is that we humans can never even fathom the reason why god made evil, but it is indeed nessessary. I still think he sounds like a prat if he's not even will to like, " Sup guys? We'll I'm trying out this new Evil thing so bear with me for a couple of thousand years, but it'll be worth it in the end I promise! "

    To sum it up. I personally don't think god exists and that is my truth. The bible is nothing but a collection of exaggerated stories about people who like Dalai Lama or Nelson Mandella were great men in their time.

    The more we post the closer we are coming to the inevitable hitler argument! Be Warned!
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