Probably one of the most heated debates of all time, and it's still continuing today. So I, being a scientific naturalist (I believe in science), have decided to open this controversial and heated argument into the forums for open discussion. Probably most of you are going to scientifically naturalistic (a.k.a. the Gay Marriage thread) so I don't think that things should be too crazy here, but still, if there is someone who doesn't agree with you, saying that they should go kill themselves should not be your go to response.
Personally, I believe that the belief of deities are in the past. Science, in the end, is the final judge. What really is science? Science is a mixture of using common sense and mathematics. A fact is not a fact until it is proven mathematically, or is so trivial that you can observe it with your own eyes. However, when a fact is not a fact, it is a hypothesis. A hypothesis is when you try to apply common sense on an issue using previous knowledge on that current subject.
For example, hundreds of years ago, people thought that the Earth was flat. This was based on observations that Earth did not look spherical in any way, and in that case, it was a logical and fair hypothesis. However, when Christopher Columbus came around, he noticed that when sailed on the sea, they slowly disappeared into the horizon, instead of staying level and then falling off the endless abyss which would be the edge of the flat Earth. Then came the "final" conclusive evidence that the Earth was round, when people could finally fly up high enough to see the spherical outline of our planet, thus concluding that the hypothesis that the Earth was flat was not true, and the fact that the Earth was round was true.
Then we get to mathematical proofs. Mathematics (calculus, geometry, algebra, abstract algebra, infinity theories, etc) all derive from the simplest of tools: addition. As it turns out, almost all of math starts from 1+1=2, and that algebra and calculus were founded upon that simple equation (geometry has its own set of proofs that are used visually or use algebra and calculus to prove). So to question a mathematical theory, or fact, is to really question the simple use of addition.
Any questions? And also post your own views as well.
I have always believed in science as the master of all things. Science is too perfect, science is perfect, that's why it works. Have you ever sat back and thought about how our earth came into being? For billions of years, our planet has been at the mercy of science and it's laws, constantly changing to adapt to scientific laws.
Because you can't debate against science. Look at your computer. Think about what's in your monitor. It's amazing stuff, and it works with electricity and circuits. Science is amazing. I am much more captivated by science than I am of the thought of some being in the sky who judges my every action and will send me to a fiery hell if I don't succumb to his will.
Just who I am and my beliefs are the culmination of all the things I grew up believing. I was very much into science when I was young, probably ever since I first saw "The Land Before Time". I was like, "YEAH, FUCK YEAH, DINOSAURS! TALKING DINOSAURS!" My fascination grew into my venturing of dinosaur picture books (one Zoobooks magazine was all it took). I was hooked on dinosaurs and their history. I knew that "millions" was a huge number, but I couldn't grasp "hundreds of millions" just yet.
Then my interests drifted off into space. I began looking at space pictures: pictures of stars, pictures of galaxies, pictures of satellites. I remember, in 2nd grade, telling the class how many moons Jupiter had. I remember getting a book from Barnes & Nobles about the sun's cycles. I was obsessed with science at that point, I wanted to know everything.
Middle school only intensified my interest. Learning about rocks, volcanoes, tectonic plates, erosion, elements, chemicals, and other scientific subjects just fascinated me. I remember doing really well in my science classes because, since I was so interested, I was more willing to pay attention and absorb the information.
Science can do so much... what made science? Science made itself, that's why it's science. If there was a god, why would he make the world as complicated as it is? Why would he make it so elements can combine and create deadly poisons? Why would he make it so earthquakes can occur by shifting tectonic plates? It's because he didn't.
In the end, science created man. Man created god.
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I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
I believe in science, but I also believe in higher beings helping us through life and such... Yes science explains a ton and all that, but sometimes science just doesn't cut it...Oh, I also do no believe in the bible.
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Life is only another stage of death, in fearing death you can not live life to the fullest. Some of the world's greatest feats were accomplished by people not smart enough to know they were impossible.
This is kind of unclear. Science is not some absolute set of facts known by those who have discovered them and applicable in all situations infinitely. In fact, nothing is fact. All of it is just tested theory, granted some theories may test more consistently to have one outcome, but true "fact" is non-existent.
I majored in chemistry, focusing in physical, organic, and abstract applications to soils, and I have taken a fair amount of physics courses since. Im not trying to make some end all be all "rethink your life" statement, Im just simply stating that no one has an explanation. No explanation is rock solid. Everything is theoretical.
I suppose a system of beliefs is just how closely your mind lets you relate to a given theory. If that theory is a higher power, you say you follow a religion, if that theory is string, big bang, or evolution, you say you follow science. Just realize, you cant call science facts. Facts are finite, discrete, tangible concepts that can be proven without fault. Nothing scientific falls into that category, I absolutely, undeniably guarantee that.
For billions of years, our planet has been at the mercy of science and it's laws, constantly changing to adapt to scientific laws.
I am not too sure about what you mean here Az but its definitely scientific laws that have adapted to suit our understanding of the world.
Furthermore this poll is irrational. A man can perfectly place his trust in both 'science' and religion.
Besides religion is a science though I do understand where you are coming from.
It is much more than belief in deities. It's a way of life. If it has endured for so long, there must be a reason for it. And to say this reason is people just being reluctant or fearful of change is naivety. Mathematical solutions alone are not enough to fill the void of existence for many and justly so since much has yet to be explained.
However am not a fan of being too 'dependent' on religion. I see it as similar to using a drug for medical purposes and ending up addicted to it. I wish people would understand religion's nature and not only see the fools who wrongly practice it. And yes, I can say many people wrongly practice it if on one hand their holy books are preaching love and tolerance and their behavior is of discrimination, prejudice and oppression.
A combination of religion and common sense makes the best of both world i feel.
In fact, nothing is fact. All of it is just tested theory, granted some theories may test more consistently to have one outcome, but true "fact" is non-existent.
I've always wondered about this. I mean, I've always questioned my reality, dabbled in thoughts pertaining to what I see, what I feel, and try to think, "is this real? Is this really real?" Yes, the grass is green and the road is gray, but is that really how I perceive it? Considering that a theory behind color is that certain wavelengths of light reflect off surfaces and our eyes perceive them as color, is that really it's true color?
It's all about the human experience. We need to think these thoughts, they bring us closer to ourselves. I always question, I always question because I want to know the truth. It's an endless pursuit though because, then again, nothing could be the truth.
... mindfuck. :wacko:
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I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
I don't think you quite understand how hard it is for something to become a legit theory. The scientific method has quite a lot of steps for a hypothesis to be recognized as fact. For example, in our current universe, it is recognized that light travels at the fastest speeds known. Einstein had to go through quite a lot to convince the that to the world, and his equations are now PROVEN to be the basis of modern astronomy, physics, etc.
Also, scientists are not stupid. If a group of people who have never seen a cat go into a room of 90 cats, and they are all orange, they are not going to say automatically that every cat in the world is orange. It can be a hypothesis, as it is a logical conclusion to say that all cats are orange based on what you have seen, but it is just a hypothesis. To make this a legit fact, you will need to have EVERY SINGLE cat in the entire world to be seen if they are orange. If they are, then you can say that in THAT moment of time, every cat in the world is orange. But that's IT. That's all that you can say. In order to say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a cat to ever be orange, you would have to measure all the cats on planet Earth over infinity before you can make that judgment. It's that hard.
For billions of years, our planet has been at the mercy of science and it's laws, constantly changing to adapt to scientific laws.
I am not too sure about what you mean here Az but its definitely scientific laws that have adapted to suit our understanding of the world.
Furthermore this poll is irrational. A man can perfectly place his trust in both 'science' and religion.
Besides religion is a science though I do understand where you are coming from.
It is much more than belief in deities. It's a way of life. If it has endured for so long, there must be a reason for it. And to say this reason is people just being reluctant or fearful of change is naivety. Mathematical solutions alone are not enough to fill the void of existence for many and justly so since much has yet to be explained.
However am not a fan of being too 'dependent' on religion. I see it as similar to using a drug for medical purposes and ending up addicted to it. I wish people would understand religion's nature and not only see the fools who wrongly practice it. And yes, I can say many people wrongly practice it if on one hand their holy books are preaching love and tolerance and their behavior is of discrimination, prejudice and oppression.
A combination of religion and common sense makes the best of both world i feel.
That's about how I feel
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Life is only another stage of death, in fearing death you can not live life to the fullest. Some of the world's greatest feats were accomplished by people not smart enough to know they were impossible.
There are 2 main reasons why religions are in power. First, it is to explain things that human cannot understand. Second, it is to comfort their idea of dying, creating an afterlife. Now in order for a religion to be successful, it has to be appealing and make physical sense. Christianity, if it was not a religion, would make a very good fiction book in the market. So would Islam, Buddhism, etc.
However, science is the ultimate judge. It slowly uncovers what the truth really is, which is why public schools deny the teachings of religion in it (unless it is for educational purposes). It is a slow process, but it is why more people are converting to scientific naturalism than any other time period in history.
And also, the poll is very rational. You cannot believe in both, as they are opposite in every way. Believe in both would mean that you crossing out what you don't like in both and make it suit what you like the most. Being undecided is what you really are.
I'm not going to come out and say "blah blah religion suxxors blah blah", but I have my own personal quarrels with religion.
But I have one thing I want to say, one thing.
- I don't get where people get off saying that a deity created science. It just seems so... I don't know, but it kinda over-inflates the importance of their deity. It makes it seem like their deity is the reason for everything, which is why I have a hard time comprehending religion. If a deity could do so much, why would it stop? It obviously has, look at our planet.
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I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
I'm not going to come out and say "blah blah religion suxxors blah blah", but I have my own personal quarrels with religion.
But I have one thing I want to say, one thing.
- I don't get where people get off saying that a deity created science. It just seems so... I don't know, but it kinda over-inflates the importance of their deity. It makes it seem like their deity is the reason for everything, which is why I have a hard time comprehending religion. If a deity could do so much, why would it stop? It obviously has, look at our planet.
I am not saying religions sucks either. I am just saying that the time for religion has passed, and it is now time to move on from it, because it is not doing more bad than good.
And people say that because it is a logical, and quite smart, defensive conclusion. Think about it, everyone is disproving every one of your beliefs and you are left defenseless, so in your desperation, logic says that your deity has created the "science" that everyone is now using.
Believe in both would mean that you crossing out what you don't like in both and make it suit what you like the most.
Almost correct. But it's not what I like the most. It's what I need the most.
I need to understand, I need to be happy and I need to be at peace.
The rest are just tools to help me achieve these. Nothing more, nothing less.
I think you are limiting yourself but if it's enough for you, I respect that.
Ah see, I was born in a very Christian family, yet I always knew that there was something wrong with it all. Science just made too much sense and you really can't disprove it by saying "Well God did it". To me, that's not a valid argument because you are essentially throwing yourself out of the debate by presenting an argument that cannot be argued against.
To me, I believe in pure science, and for now, I cannot see myself change it.
yeah, basically I agree with nekro. But I'll try to put it in my own words as simple as possible...
as I see it, science can't (for now at least) answer some of the most fundamental questions about existence, the principle of causality in wich every natural science is based gives two alternatives: 1) everything comes from one first cause (no matter how you call it). 2) there is no first cause and the cause-effect relation reaches infinite into the past.
that's based on a traditional time and causality conception, there's no alternative (at least not a good one) yet...
the first option leads me to a supernatural thingy as first cause of all things, this means there is something else besides science or at least something that can't be explained by causality, as I see it this is the basic reason for the existence of religion understood as the belief on "something else"
the second leads me to the conclusion that science can't explain everything, as the existence itself is infinite, it can't be reduced to mathematical laws. So, if science can't explain everything and we agreed there's a reason (not destiny or will, a reason), a cause for everything to be, then there's something science can't explain, and until we find that out we need that "something else" to explain it.
On the other hand, the more political/sociological/cultural aspect of the topic, I think the religious organizations, as every human organization, are flawed, but also scientific organizations are (pharmaceutical industry- 'nuff said :P)
So that part is just a matter of politics decisions, they have serious consequences, but is the eternal struggle to find an impossible perfect system for society...
so much for my simple words
edit: btw, I don't think there's a necessary conflict between science and religion, there is a way to believe in both without being less scientific or less religious... now be a good boy and add the option so I can vote
I believe in science, I grew up like Azriel did. I was a science prodigy when I was in elementary school, and even in early high school as well. I found everything so fascinating. But at the same time, I felt something missing in the universe. So I don't follow any specific religion, I merely create my own religion, or theory, or what-have-you, and I follow it. Self-confidence is what I gain from it, and strive off of. It's complicated for me to explain, but science is my way of dissecting the truth of the universe. My "religion" is what keeps me alive, confident and content with how I feel.
edit: So in terms of the poll, I don't fall under anything. I follow science, yes, but I believe in my self-belief system is what keeps me living from day to day. So I am not undecided, either. If I *had* to choose, it would be science, yes, but that doesn't do my conscience any justice.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
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Both the Religious community and the scientific community are correct to a point. Let's take Christianity for example, I'm not singling it out, it's just the only religion that I fully understand yet do not follow. In the bible, it says that God has made mankind by having Adam spawned from a rock, and Eve from one of Adam's ribs. When I heard that, I was like: "So you're saying that this rock that I picked up off the ground is a long lost cousin of mine? Yeah, I don't think so." This is where I made the conclusion that god is a scientist and we are his Petri Dish colony. He flipped a couple switches in our DNA and had us evolve. That is one scenario. If you would like another scenario, then lets talk about souls. The bible says that man has a soul, and it is this that we see when we see ghosts. Well, the scientific community has factual evidence that spirits are the energy force that our bodies create and leave behind sometimes. Well, they are both right, as we cannot live without the other. The soul is basically the power source for the mind. This would explain why science finds that it is an energy that cameras can pick up and why, in certain circumstances, has the personality of the person who died as we can see this personality when the spirit tries to communicate with us. With that being said, where in the hell is the "Both" button for the poll?
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"Nothing is True. Everything is Permitted." ~ Ezio Auditore de Firenze
Science is too perfect, science is perfect, that's why it works.
And yet there are failed experiments, hypothesis' on everything, and major multiple side effects from drugs that are supposed to help a person but gives them other symptoms that they need to take other medicines for. So much for science being perfect.
@ Lt., the Bible actually says that man was formed from the dust of the Earth, not a rock. Hence the term "ashes to ashes, dust to dust".
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Science is too perfect, science is perfect, that's why it works.
And yet there are failed experiments, hypothesis' on everything, and major multiple side effects from drugs that are supposed to help a person but gives them other symptoms that they need to take other medicines for. So much for science being perfect.
Not perfect that it can't be misused. It's misuse is the fault of human practice. If a scientist worked hard enough, really put all their mettle into it, they could create a drug that could cure anything.
Side effects are more of just the body responding to the drug as it sees fit. It doesn't mean that the drug is flawed; if person A responds positively to the drug and person B gets a rash, who's to say whether the drug works or not? They can't really say either because everybody's bodies are different as a result of genetics.
Science is perfect because it's laws can't be argued against. We're trying to understand science, but that doesn't mean that it's laws aren't absolute because we don't know everything yet.
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I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
Personally, I believe that the belief of deities are in the past. Science, in the end, is the final judge. What really is science? Science is a mixture of using common sense and mathematics. A fact is not a fact until it is proven mathematically, or is so trivial that you can observe it with your own eyes. However, when a fact is not a fact, it is a hypothesis. A hypothesis is when you try to apply common sense on an issue using previous knowledge on that current subject.
For example, hundreds of years ago, people thought that the Earth was flat. This was based on observations that Earth did not look spherical in any way, and in that case, it was a logical and fair hypothesis. However, when Christopher Columbus came around, he noticed that when sailed on the sea, they slowly disappeared into the horizon, instead of staying level and then falling off the endless abyss which would be the edge of the flat Earth. Then came the "final" conclusive evidence that the Earth was round, when people could finally fly up high enough to see the spherical outline of our planet, thus concluding that the hypothesis that the Earth was flat was not true, and the fact that the Earth was round was true.
Then we get to mathematical proofs. Mathematics (calculus, geometry, algebra, abstract algebra, infinity theories, etc) all derive from the simplest of tools: addition. As it turns out, almost all of math starts from 1+1=2, and that algebra and calculus were founded upon that simple equation (geometry has its own set of proofs that are used visually or use algebra and calculus to prove). So to question a mathematical theory, or fact, is to really question the simple use of addition.
Any questions? And also post your own views as well.
Because you can't debate against science. Look at your computer. Think about what's in your monitor. It's amazing stuff, and it works with electricity and circuits. Science is amazing. I am much more captivated by science than I am of the thought of some being in the sky who judges my every action and will send me to a fiery hell if I don't succumb to his will.
Just who I am and my beliefs are the culmination of all the things I grew up believing. I was very much into science when I was young, probably ever since I first saw "The Land Before Time". I was like, "YEAH, FUCK YEAH, DINOSAURS! TALKING DINOSAURS!" My fascination grew into my venturing of dinosaur picture books (one Zoobooks magazine was all it took). I was hooked on dinosaurs and their history. I knew that "millions" was a huge number, but I couldn't grasp "hundreds of millions" just yet.
Then my interests drifted off into space. I began looking at space pictures: pictures of stars, pictures of galaxies, pictures of satellites. I remember, in 2nd grade, telling the class how many moons Jupiter had. I remember getting a book from Barnes & Nobles about the sun's cycles. I was obsessed with science at that point, I wanted to know everything.
Middle school only intensified my interest. Learning about rocks, volcanoes, tectonic plates, erosion, elements, chemicals, and other scientific subjects just fascinated me. I remember doing really well in my science classes because, since I was so interested, I was more willing to pay attention and absorb the information.
Science can do so much... what made science? Science made itself, that's why it's science. If there was a god, why would he make the world as complicated as it is? Why would he make it so elements can combine and create deadly poisons? Why would he make it so earthquakes can occur by shifting tectonic plates? It's because he didn't.
In the end, science created man. Man created god.
I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
I majored in chemistry, focusing in physical, organic, and abstract applications to soils, and I have taken a fair amount of physics courses since. Im not trying to make some end all be all "rethink your life" statement, Im just simply stating that no one has an explanation. No explanation is rock solid. Everything is theoretical.
I suppose a system of beliefs is just how closely your mind lets you relate to a given theory. If that theory is a higher power, you say you follow a religion, if that theory is string, big bang, or evolution, you say you follow science. Just realize, you cant call science facts. Facts are finite, discrete, tangible concepts that can be proven without fault. Nothing scientific falls into that category, I absolutely, undeniably guarantee that.
I am not too sure about what you mean here Az but its definitely scientific laws that have adapted to suit our understanding of the world.
Furthermore this poll is irrational. A man can perfectly place his trust in both 'science' and religion.
Besides religion is a science though I do understand where you are coming from.
It is much more than belief in deities. It's a way of life. If it has endured for so long, there must be a reason for it. And to say this reason is people just being reluctant or fearful of change is naivety. Mathematical solutions alone are not enough to fill the void of existence for many and justly so since much has yet to be explained.
However am not a fan of being too 'dependent' on religion. I see it as similar to using a drug for medical purposes and ending up addicted to it. I wish people would understand religion's nature and not only see the fools who wrongly practice it. And yes, I can say many people wrongly practice it if on one hand their holy books are preaching love and tolerance and their behavior is of discrimination, prejudice and oppression.
A combination of religion and common sense makes the best of both world i feel.
I've always wondered about this. I mean, I've always questioned my reality, dabbled in thoughts pertaining to what I see, what I feel, and try to think, "is this real? Is this really real?" Yes, the grass is green and the road is gray, but is that really how I perceive it? Considering that a theory behind color is that certain wavelengths of light reflect off surfaces and our eyes perceive them as color, is that really it's true color?
It's all about the human experience. We need to think these thoughts, they bring us closer to ourselves. I always question, I always question because I want to know the truth. It's an endless pursuit though because, then again, nothing could be the truth.
... mindfuck. :wacko:
I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
Also, scientists are not stupid. If a group of people who have never seen a cat go into a room of 90 cats, and they are all orange, they are not going to say automatically that every cat in the world is orange. It can be a hypothesis, as it is a logical conclusion to say that all cats are orange based on what you have seen, but it is just a hypothesis. To make this a legit fact, you will need to have EVERY SINGLE cat in the entire world to be seen if they are orange. If they are, then you can say that in THAT moment of time, every cat in the world is orange. But that's IT. That's all that you can say. In order to say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a cat to ever be orange, you would have to measure all the cats on planet Earth over infinity before you can make that judgment. It's that hard.
However, science is the ultimate judge. It slowly uncovers what the truth really is, which is why public schools deny the teachings of religion in it (unless it is for educational purposes). It is a slow process, but it is why more people are converting to scientific naturalism than any other time period in history.
And also, the poll is very rational. You cannot believe in both, as they are opposite in every way. Believe in both would mean that you crossing out what you don't like in both and make it suit what you like the most. Being undecided is what you really are.
But I have one thing I want to say, one thing.
- I don't get where people get off saying that a deity created science. It just seems so... I don't know, but it kinda over-inflates the importance of their deity. It makes it seem like their deity is the reason for everything, which is why I have a hard time comprehending religion. If a deity could do so much, why would it stop? It obviously has, look at our planet.
I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
I am not saying religions sucks either. I am just saying that the time for religion has passed, and it is now time to move on from it, because it is not doing more bad than good.
And people say that because it is a logical, and quite smart, defensive conclusion. Think about it, everyone is disproving every one of your beliefs and you are left defenseless, so in your desperation, logic says that your deity has created the "science" that everyone is now using.
Almost correct. But it's not what I like the most. It's what I need the most.
I need to understand, I need to be happy and I need to be at peace.
The rest are just tools to help me achieve these. Nothing more, nothing less.
I think you are limiting yourself but if it's enough for you, I respect that.
Ah see, I was born in a very Christian family, yet I always knew that there was something wrong with it all. Science just made too much sense and you really can't disprove it by saying "Well God did it". To me, that's not a valid argument because you are essentially throwing yourself out of the debate by presenting an argument that cannot be argued against.
To me, I believe in pure science, and for now, I cannot see myself change it.
yeah, basically I agree with nekro. But I'll try to put it in my own words as simple as possible...
as I see it, science can't (for now at least) answer some of the most fundamental questions about existence, the principle of causality in wich every natural science is based gives two alternatives: 1) everything comes from one first cause (no matter how you call it). 2) there is no first cause and the cause-effect relation reaches infinite into the past.
that's based on a traditional time and causality conception, there's no alternative (at least not a good one) yet...
the first option leads me to a supernatural thingy as first cause of all things, this means there is something else besides science or at least something that can't be explained by causality, as I see it this is the basic reason for the existence of religion understood as the belief on "something else"
the second leads me to the conclusion that science can't explain everything, as the existence itself is infinite, it can't be reduced to mathematical laws. So, if science can't explain everything and we agreed there's a reason (not destiny or will, a reason), a cause for everything to be, then there's something science can't explain, and until we find that out we need that "something else" to explain it.
On the other hand, the more political/sociological/cultural aspect of the topic, I think the religious organizations, as every human organization, are flawed, but also scientific organizations are (pharmaceutical industry- 'nuff said :P)
So that part is just a matter of politics decisions, they have serious consequences, but is the eternal struggle to find an impossible perfect system for society...
so much for my simple words
edit: btw, I don't think there's a necessary conflict between science and religion, there is a way to believe in both without being less scientific or less religious... now be a good boy and add the option so I can vote
edit: So in terms of the poll, I don't fall under anything. I follow science, yes, but I believe in my self-belief system is what keeps me living from day to day. So I am not undecided, either. If I *had* to choose, it would be science, yes, but that doesn't do my conscience any justice.
One becomes strong when they are fighting to protect someone close to them... - Shiro Haku
I'm a philosopher.
To place all your eggs in one basket is an idiotic mistake in my book. But what do I know, not much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__wcaa-LBkc
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"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
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@ Lt., the Bible actually says that man was formed from the dust of the Earth, not a rock. Hence the term "ashes to ashes, dust to dust".
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Not perfect that it can't be misused. It's misuse is the fault of human practice. If a scientist worked hard enough, really put all their mettle into it, they could create a drug that could cure anything.
Side effects are more of just the body responding to the drug as it sees fit. It doesn't mean that the drug is flawed; if person A responds positively to the drug and person B gets a rash, who's to say whether the drug works or not? They can't really say either because everybody's bodies are different as a result of genetics.
Science is perfect because it's laws can't be argued against. We're trying to understand science, but that doesn't mean that it's laws aren't absolute because we don't know everything yet.
I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
This is actually the definition of religion practiced by the close-minded.
Sorry mate, but you are more and more starting to sound like a religious fanatic.
Nothing is taken as absolute in science.