As for Zeitgeist, it seems that whenever discussed people either discard it as a collection of lies, or worship it as though a sacred text (Which is so ironic it hurts). It's definitely an interesting movie to watch, and presents a few things to think about. Meh, anyway...
In regards to what you said about logic and religion, it can get humorous at times the things people throw together. It's almost like a word puzzle a lawyer would use to make someone agree to something they don't mean to.
Good thread,now just tossing in my take.
I am an Agnostic Atheist, which means I lack belief in a god because of lack of evidence.
I am always open to new evidences, but I eventually shut down after hearing the same thing over and over and over again from people trying to convert me.
I believe in a higher power we as humans cannot yet comprehend at our state of knowledge. The higher power I believe in does not fit the image of the Christian God. However I don't believe the stories of the Bible, at least not literally, I believe they are ideas (and broad ones at that) which basically propel the message of peace and co-operation as do most religions. I have nothing against religion but I still think humanity would be better off without it, if we could be a moral and kind species not for the sake of fear of punishment or promise of reward we could accomplish much more. Religions to me seem to separate everyone into groups, and however large or influential they may be they are just that- groups which prevent us from reaching our full potential as a race.
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Don't try to be a great man, just be a man... and let history make its own judgment. -Zefram Cochrane, Star Trek
I talk to God often, and ask him questions. "Are you an atheist? If not, then you admit there is yet a higher power. And who are you to say who lives and dies, who succedes and fails, who wins, loses; why the innocent die and the guilty go on spilling blood. Just WHO do you think you are?!"
To which I receive the response, "I AM."
"Touche."
Actually, I'm an atheist.
Much to the chagrine of many, and the amusement of some, I am a devout atheist; I do not believe in the existence in a higher power, at least one as defined by any worldly religious institution. In our limited capacity as mortal humans, beings who resort to the likes of war to settle disputes -- a practice that literally dates back to the advent of our species, perhaps even well before -- and harbor an innate inability to truly comprehend even of our own outre sciences -- such as quantum mechanics, multidimensionality, and have only a faint grasp of nonlinear systems -- we must be incapable of divining the true nature of any life form beyond (or even below?) our existence. (... Wow, I could have written that part better... Oh well.) While the theist believes the burden of disproof falls on the shoulders of the atheist, simply because the latter is in the minority, shouldn't the onus fall onto the theist to prove to me in God's existence? And, should the theist take on that challenge, any and all "proof" is not empirical and therefor invalid; the concept of god is an unbounded thoery and is therefor irrefutable as it is provable. Naturally, the theist very well may resort to such things as "There is so much we don't know or understand. Take quantum mechanics, for example!" This is a tired argument; for untold centuries have people used the Unknown as refuge for their concept of God. I admit, we may never be able to uncover every single fact and law about this splendid universe we live in, but saying God is all that which we do not know is cheating. And what of the "intelligence" behind the design of natural objects, living and inanimate? To whomsoever declares evolution to be a farse, or even so much as believes it is directed from afar by a greater being, I tell them they simply don't understand evolution/ The universe is beautiful and complex alone, as is, to need some great architect. We believe there to be an architect, one similar to ourselves, because we associate with complexity a plan, as we ourselves create. Though I am sketchy on the details (and overall concept) chaos thoery itself can explain the seeming rise of order from the chaotic vortices of yore following the Big Bang...
I don't know that much about, and I must admit I am remiss to speak of it without proper research, but from what little I know of it, there is a movement that disturbs me --a New Atheist movement, to be precise.This frightens me. What frightens me more than superstition and fantasy is organized religion. And, from my limited perspective, that is exactly what this movement is. Religion is a system of beliefs, with its own credo, with a hierarchy of individuals, typically top to bottom. The vangaurd of this particular movement is Richard Dawkins, a man I hold in high esteem. However, at times I find his rhetoric dangerous, as he and others like him criticize belief in God or the supernatural as being evil. Again I shouldn't speak of things which are not yet clear to me, however the sort of intolerance of religion on the part of this emerging atheist group is the very reason I oppose most organized religions already established.
In a sense, thoughts, beliefs and ideals are viruses and epitomize Darwinism in its base form: a field of conflict where co-habitation is rarely the solution. This drives their hosts -- the likes of we humans -- to strife to ensure the existence and perpetuation of one and only one belief or ideal. And as Atheism is promulgated as an emerging, nigh-religious doctrine, I fear it too may enter the fray.
Would I like to see religion fade away to be supplanted by reason and faith (hehe, pun... kinda...) in science? Of course. But such a transition, I believe, would take a long time to complete. Do I think it will solve all of our problems? Hell no. We are volatile beings, and we will always find ways to divide ourselves into distinctive categories, the boundaries of which may and always will lead to conflict.
In conclusion, a brief note on something that has little to do with anything: prayer. There have been studies done to see whether or not prayer actually has any benefit for the prayee. (Is that right? Prayee? Eh...) Naturally, the results were... none. None whatsoever. Now this may come as a surprise, but thought prayer may have a small impact on the Prayee. Say, the one for whom mutliple people pray is sick and/or in the hospital (under which conditions the aforementioned studies were conducted). It is known that organisms tend to flourish when in the company of other of their own kind and enjoy a fulfilled social life and are in high standing with their peers. Somehow this social interaction promotes certain manners or induces the release of certain chemicals in the brain or body that are beneficial and reinforce the protective abilities of the immune system. When one knows one is being prayed for, especially by a great many people, I would expect this prayee would experience some form of NATURAL beneficial effect. Oh well.
I am also of the opinion that religion is quite good for the economy. Really. For the poor: "Take it in the ass thie lifetime around, and you'll get into heaven." Quite nice for keeping the unhappy masses in line, eh?
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Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow
Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?
The road's goal is the dark Origin of Being
But be wary through what thickets it winds.
-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
Every action, reaction, motion, or thought is all governed by the laws of physics and the tendancy towards greater entropy (randomness).
We live in a deterministic universe: meaning that anything, and everything, can be predetermined ahead of time if we know all of the variables such as position, velocity, and time. (Although with electrons and some other sub-atomic quarks it is impossible to know the position and velocity at the same time, this however seems to not affect the world outside the atom.) Even thought patterns are just neurons and axon bulbs firing and reacting to each other; if there was a scientist who knew every position and motion of every molecule in the universe, he could predict the future perfectly.
That being said, there is no possible way there is a greater power 'pulling strings' or 'creating miracles' because that goes against everything science has proved to be factual. Ever since The Big Bang, only physics has shaped our world and our universe. But prior to this event, when all matter was condensed into a singularity, the very fabric of space-time would be wrapped around itself so not even time could be defined. In this state there is no way for anyone to refute anything from a Christian God creating life, to Barney farting, because the laws of physics do not hold up.
A belief in a higher power gives people (false) hope, strength, and determination. It also helps install morals which are beneficial to the entire community. However, like any great power, religion has been twisted into an unrecognisable plague used to launch 'holy' wars, extort money from people, allow terrible leaders to gain power (like Bush and Hitler), and cause incredible amounts of discrimination and hate.
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---- And the evil that was once vanquished shall rise anew! ----
For Atheist like you, it will be an obvious answer for you coz you don't believe in any Higher being. But can science really answer everything that happens in our world.. Even the process of conception is not all revealing.. Yes, we know how the process goes but do you really understand and know how the heck can 2 simple sex cells(sperm and the egg cell) manage to form a multi-cellular being in 9 months? Please don't give me that cellular division crap coz i know that. But can science really know WHY it even multiplies in the first place? There are many mysteries and wonders that science cannot explain my friends. There are limits to so-called theories of scientist. And don't even try to argue coz noone would really wanna argue here. Just trying to state my point here, Thank you
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In between Light and Darkness, he was born. Outside of time and space he exists.. In this hour of darkness, he is once again called for to rid the world of sin and chaos.....
Just a few decades ago we didn't even know that there were other galaxies beside the Milky Way. Guess the next thing we'll know is that there are other universes out there with different laws of physics from which our universe originated.
What if our universe was actually created by something so crazy that you couldn't even imagine it.
The thing with arguing; denying the existence of a higher power is that the HIGHER POWER card always plays out.
"How can human beings even hope to fathom the workings of a beyond-beyondness entity? For all we know our physics and atoms were made simply for shits and giggles. Dinosaurs were put on Earth to test our faith!"
(Okay, the last bit was aimed more towards established Religious schools.)
But outside the popular faiths we have today, where it's easy to disprove based on evidence on particular events provided by their own teachings, the belief of a God, in general, is hard to dispute.
"God doesn't exist is because Man-made laws and rules indicate otherwise?
He's God. His rules are the only rules."
And yes, you can say this isn't a proper argument, but in my opinion it is. In fact, if we must assume that God plays within the boundaries of Human sciences then what kind of God is he? Still, we must confine to the rules of logical thinking and scientific method etc. Or else shit won't get done.
At a stretch it'd be some super advanced being, but nothing close to the cosmic, omnipotent beyondness with an inexplicable tendency to prey upon the Human race 'too much.'
Good thread,now just tossing in my take.
I am an Agnostic Atheist, which means I lack belief in a god because of lack of evidence.
I am always open to new evidences, but I eventually shut down after hearing the same thing over and over and over again from people trying to convert me.
eh i dont think that "agnostic athiest" is the right term... agnostic is unsure and athiest is dont believe in god... ur athiest but if presented with overwhelming evidence of a god you would believe... i dont think thats agnostic athiest but idk what to call it lol
For Atheist like you, it will be an obvious answer for you coz you don't believe in any Higher being. But can science really answer everything that happens in our world.. Even the process of conception is not all revealing.. Yes, we know how the process goes but do you really understand and know how the heck can 2 simple sex cells(sperm and the egg cell) manage to form a multi-cellular being in 9 months? Please don't give me that cellular division crap coz i know that. But can science really know WHY it even multiplies in the first place? There are many mysteries and wonders that science cannot explain my friends. There are limits to so-called theories of scientist. And don't even try to argue coz noone would really wanna argue here. Just trying to state my point here, Thank you
ok science can explain how sperm and egg can create a multicellular organism in 40 weeks... look it up before u speak plz... and science cannot explain certain things because our intelligence is limited to what we have experienced etc... we have not experienced the big bang so we do not know why it happend... all we know is that there is a definate age to the universe far predating the fuckin biblical stories... we explain things scientifically throiugh experimenting and experiencing first hand the marvels of science... until we experience some of ur "mysteries" we cannot explain what hasnt been documented
For Atheist like you, it will be an obvious answer for you coz you don't believe in any Higher being. But can science really answer everything that happens in our world.. Even the process of conception is not all revealing.. Yes, we know how the process goes but do you really understand and know how the heck can 2 simple sex cells(sperm and the egg cell) manage to form a multi-cellular being in 9 months? Please don't give me that cellular division crap coz i know that. But can science really know WHY it even multiplies in the first place? There are many mysteries and wonders that science cannot explain my friends. There are limits to so-called theories of scientist. And don't even try to argue coz noone would really wanna argue here. Just trying to state my point here, Thank you
First off, I wouldn't say I'm an Atheist. To be Atheist one must posess faith, the same kind of faith religious people use to believe in a God, to blindly believe that there is no God. Are you an embriotic biologist? Because I'm not, but I'm sure there are many Biologists out there who could describe to you how this occurs.
I believe more bewildering questions occur when asking how the first cell began, and maybe more puzzling: how the first multi-cellular being arrived. While science has proved the spontaneous creation of biological material (proteins) from abiotic is possible, there are still mysteries in our evolution that are waiting to be discovered. Thousands of years ago people would say "then how does the Sun rise? see? There has to be a God." Those who want to believe are slowly running out of examples to point at where science can not explain. But that does not mean that these are counter-examples to a God-less world, as all other examples before have been proven to be part of nature.
I think a more healthy version of God would be for people to not look for a divine being sitting up in the clouds who will send you to an eternity of torment if you are bad or refuse to believe in him, but rather a more intangible essence or spirituality that ties all life together. I like the idea of Karma, and while I know it is not true, putting out good energy and kindness repays you much more than being selfish. I really hate to see generations being brainwashed at a young age to fanatically believe in a religion that in all probability is false, and told that if they stop believing they will go to a burning Hell where all other non-believers go. Go watch Jesus Camp if you aren't sure. The Evangelicals in the USA are the reason that a government so corrupt, so neglectful of the well-being of its citizens, can go to, and remain in power. With so much "faith" being pumped into Christianity, and the Republican USA, those in the White House can litterally get away with murder (and continue their regime towards New World Order).
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---- And the evil that was once vanquished shall rise anew! ----
First off, I wouldn't say I'm an Atheist. To be Atheist one must posess faith, the same kind of faith religious people use to believe in a God, to blindly believe that there is no God. Are you an embriotic biologist? Because I'm not, but I'm sure there are many Biologists out there who could describe to you how this occurs.
I believe more bewildering questions occur when asking how the first cell began, and maybe more puzzling: how the first multi-cellular being arrived. While science has proved the spontaneous creation of biological material (proteins) from abiotic is possible, there are still mysteries in our evolution that are waiting to be discovered. Thousands of years ago people would say "then how does the Sun rise? see? There has to be a God." Those who want to believe are slowly running out of examples to point at where science can not explain. But that does not mean that these are counter-examples to a God-less world, as all other examples before have been proven to be part of nature.
I think a more healthy version of God would be for people to not look for a divine being sitting up in the clouds who will send you to an eternity of torment if you are bad or refuse to believe in him, but rather a more intangible essence or spirituality that ties all life together. I like the idea of Karma, and while I know it is not true, putting out good energy and kindness repays you much more than being selfish. I really hate to see generations being brainwashed at a young age to fanatically believe in a religion that in all probability is false, and told that if they stop believing they will go to a burning Hell where all other non-believers go. Go watch Jesus Camp if you aren't sure. The Evangelicals in the USA are the reason that a government so corrupt, so neglectful of the well-being of its citizens, can go to, and remain in power. With so much "faith" being pumped into Christianity, and the Republican USA, those in the White House can litterally get away with murder (and continue their regime towards New World Order).
pleae..im asking nicely, dont bring any Masonic references into this... And you say that it's "probability" of being correct is false. But heres the thing. IF it was true then your understanding of anything would be very wrong and you would not be able to calculate the probability of it. Nor can you use math to truly calculate the possibility of a god existing now anyways. And to say that it's brainwash is garbage for many religions, besides that even, most households today BARELY even go to church and most of their brainwash comes from biology class, they dont really believe in religion because of a lack of exposure and are forced to accept evolution as ultimate truth. That the real brainwash of the nation
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
pleae..im asking nicely, dont bring any Masonic references into this... And you say that it's "probability" of being correct is false. But heres the thing. IF it was true then your understanding of anything would be very wrong and you would not be able to calculate the probability of it. Nor can you use math to truly calculate the possibility of a god existing now anyways. And to say that it's brainwash is garbage for many religions, besides that even, most households today BARELY even go to church and most of their brainwash comes from biology class, they dont really believe in religion because of a lack of exposure and are forced to accept evolution as ultimate truth. That the real brainwash of the nation
I'll respond in reverse order:
Teaching children factual science is not brainwashing. If you believe evolution didn't happen and isn't still happening, then you are oblivious the the endless biological and anthrological evidence proving it.
I love how you misconstrued my sentence and pick out a single word in order to justify a retaliation. "In all probability" was in talking about the Christian religion and how we know it today. Not only has Christianity changed so many times over the years, but there are countless other religions that are just as valid. In all probability the Christian God which we know at this instant, does not exist. Is that unfair to speculate the out of the thousands of supernatural deities, (in which there is no scientific evidence at all to support any of them) this specific one most likely does not exist? Come on man...
Were you referring to my new world order comment when you said Masonic? I'm not going to get into this issue because it is but it's coming... And we will welcome it with open arms.
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---- And the evil that was once vanquished shall rise anew! ----
Teaching children factual science is not brainwashing. If you believe evolution didn't happen and isn't still happening, then you are oblivious the the endless biological and anthrological evidence proving it.
I love how you misconstrued my sentence and pick out a single word in order to justify a retaliation. "In all probability" was in talking about the Christian religion and how we know it today. Not only has Christianity changed so many times over the years, but there are countless other religions that are just as valid. In all probability the Christian God which we know at this instant, does not exist. Is that unfair to speculate the out of the thousands of supernatural deities, (in which there is no scientific evidence at all to support any of them) this specific one most likely does not exist? Come on man...
Were you referring to my new world order comment when you said Masonic? I'm not going to get into this issue because it is but it's coming... And we will welcome it with open arms.
No, evolution is controversial for many its factual to you but i have seen no evidence as Equinox would say that prove a Lizard can grow feathers. As another would say that i found very interesting is if animals can evolve and adapt to their environment then why haven't we found a creature that can avoid death,In order to evolve and survive avoiding death seems pretty important don't ya think? But still they all die. Theres many flaws in evolution that if you look hard enough on youtube you can find interview of world renowned college professors of evolution getting stumped by some interviewers question on evolution. The whole thing is still a bluurry theory and should be taken with many grains of salt.
And i didn't misconstrue your sentence, you should have made it more clear. And it doesn't matter whats fair for your childhood religion to be, that is irrelevant because you are a child. What do children do? DEPEND ON THEIR PARENTS. They DEPEND on their parents to lead them in the right direction with everything and trust that they have their best interest in mind, this goes for religion as well.
If you do desire to go into some sort of idea concerning Illuminati and Masonry in their relationship to something silly such as them intentionally attempting to control governments with religion choose your words carefully.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
actually that's somewhat a lie, Islam really isnt as a peaceful religion as it says it is, the Qur'an is actually in many cases a very hatful book. Im just saying this about islam not muslims though.
First off, I wouldn't say I'm an Atheist. To be Atheist one must posess faith, the same kind of faith religious people use to believe in a God, to blindly believe that there is no God. Are you an embriotic biologist? Because I'm not, but I'm sure there are many Biologists out there who could describe to you how this occurs.
I believe more bewildering questions occur when asking how the first cell began, and maybe more puzzling: how the first multi-cellular being arrived. While science has proved the spontaneous creation of biological material (proteins) from abiotic is possible, there are still mysteries in our evolution that are waiting to be discovered. Thousands of years ago people would say "then how does the Sun rise? see? There has to be a God." Those who want to believe are slowly running out of examples to point at where science can not explain. But that does not mean that these are counter-examples to a God-less world, as all other examples before have been proven to be part of nature.
I think a more healthy version of God would be for people to not look for a divine being sitting up in the clouds who will send you to an eternity of torment if you are bad or refuse to believe in him, but rather a more intangible essence or spirituality that ties all life together. I like the idea of Karma, and while I know it is not true, putting out good energy and kindness repays you much more than being selfish. I really hate to see generations being brainwashed at a young age to fanatically believe in a religion that in all probability is false, and told that if they stop believing they will go to a burning Hell where all other non-believers go. Go watch Jesus Camp if you aren't sure. The Evangelicals in the USA are the reason that a government so corrupt, so neglectful of the well-being of its citizens, can go to, and remain in power. With so much "faith" being pumped into Christianity, and the Republican USA, those in the White House can litterally get away with murder (and continue their regime towards New World Order).
I really like the way you think. Actually, I believe in God but I'm not a devout christian. The Catholic faith tells me that in order to be loved by God, we must go to church every Sunday to practice our beliefs. I seriously doubt that because for me, I also believe in Karma and i believe you can practice your faith anywhere and it shouldn't be restricted to the church alone. As for the Science vs. Religion issue, I think there's no point in this battle because let's face it, everyone has their own beliefs and has their own concept on things and you can't make these people believe in what you believe because we are all unique and we think differently. I am a man of science, I love studying about Astronomy. Believe me, I'm not a guy you should be fighting. As much as possible, i keep a balance between faith and science because it gives me more reason to live in a world filled with mysteries and wonders. I believe in the supernatural, in the paranormal, even in miracles. There are certain things you can't really explain in life. like miracles that happen to everyday people. Whether we like it or not, we are not born to this world to understand everything because if we want to do that, it would take many lifetimes to achieve that goal.
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In between Light and Darkness, he was born. Outside of time and space he exists.. In this hour of darkness, he is once again called for to rid the world of sin and chaos.....
actually that's somewhat a lie, Islam really isnt as a peaceful religion as it says it is, the Qur'an is actually in many cases a very hatful book. Im just saying this about islam not muslims though.
well they believe when they die they go to paradise so idk
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Tupac 4ever and always
gamma11 > east
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As for Zeitgeist, it seems that whenever discussed people either discard it as a collection of lies, or worship it as though a sacred text (Which is so ironic it hurts). It's definitely an interesting movie to watch, and presents a few things to think about. Meh, anyway...
In regards to what you said about logic and religion, it can get humorous at times the things people throw together. It's almost like a word puzzle a lawyer would use to make someone agree to something they don't mean to.
It's the decisions you make when you have no time to make them that define who you are.
I am an Agnostic Atheist, which means I lack belief in a god because of lack of evidence.
I am always open to new evidences, but I eventually shut down after hearing the same thing over and over and over again from people trying to convert me.
To which I receive the response, "I AM."
"Touche."
Actually, I'm an atheist.
Much to the chagrine of many, and the amusement of some, I am a devout atheist; I do not believe in the existence in a higher power, at least one as defined by any worldly religious institution. In our limited capacity as mortal humans, beings who resort to the likes of war to settle disputes -- a practice that literally dates back to the advent of our species, perhaps even well before -- and harbor an innate inability to truly comprehend even of our own outre sciences -- such as quantum mechanics, multidimensionality, and have only a faint grasp of nonlinear systems -- we must be incapable of divining the true nature of any life form beyond (or even below?) our existence. (... Wow, I could have written that part better... Oh well.) While the theist believes the burden of disproof falls on the shoulders of the atheist, simply because the latter is in the minority, shouldn't the onus fall onto the theist to prove to me in God's existence? And, should the theist take on that challenge, any and all "proof" is not empirical and therefor invalid; the concept of god is an unbounded thoery and is therefor irrefutable as it is provable. Naturally, the theist very well may resort to such things as "There is so much we don't know or understand. Take quantum mechanics, for example!" This is a tired argument; for untold centuries have people used the Unknown as refuge for their concept of God. I admit, we may never be able to uncover every single fact and law about this splendid universe we live in, but saying God is all that which we do not know is cheating. And what of the "intelligence" behind the design of natural objects, living and inanimate? To whomsoever declares evolution to be a farse, or even so much as believes it is directed from afar by a greater being, I tell them they simply don't understand evolution/ The universe is beautiful and complex alone, as is, to need some great architect. We believe there to be an architect, one similar to ourselves, because we associate with complexity a plan, as we ourselves create. Though I am sketchy on the details (and overall concept) chaos thoery itself can explain the seeming rise of order from the chaotic vortices of yore following the Big Bang...
I don't know that much about, and I must admit I am remiss to speak of it without proper research, but from what little I know of it, there is a movement that disturbs me --a New Atheist movement, to be precise.This frightens me. What frightens me more than superstition and fantasy is organized religion. And, from my limited perspective, that is exactly what this movement is. Religion is a system of beliefs, with its own credo, with a hierarchy of individuals, typically top to bottom. The vangaurd of this particular movement is Richard Dawkins, a man I hold in high esteem. However, at times I find his rhetoric dangerous, as he and others like him criticize belief in God or the supernatural as being evil. Again I shouldn't speak of things which are not yet clear to me, however the sort of intolerance of religion on the part of this emerging atheist group is the very reason I oppose most organized religions already established.
In a sense, thoughts, beliefs and ideals are viruses and epitomize Darwinism in its base form: a field of conflict where co-habitation is rarely the solution. This drives their hosts -- the likes of we humans -- to strife to ensure the existence and perpetuation of one and only one belief or ideal. And as Atheism is promulgated as an emerging, nigh-religious doctrine, I fear it too may enter the fray.
Would I like to see religion fade away to be supplanted by reason and faith (hehe, pun... kinda...) in science? Of course. But such a transition, I believe, would take a long time to complete. Do I think it will solve all of our problems? Hell no. We are volatile beings, and we will always find ways to divide ourselves into distinctive categories, the boundaries of which may and always will lead to conflict.
In conclusion, a brief note on something that has little to do with anything: prayer. There have been studies done to see whether or not prayer actually has any benefit for the prayee. (Is that right? Prayee? Eh...) Naturally, the results were... none. None whatsoever. Now this may come as a surprise, but thought prayer may have a small impact on the Prayee. Say, the one for whom mutliple people pray is sick and/or in the hospital (under which conditions the aforementioned studies were conducted). It is known that organisms tend to flourish when in the company of other of their own kind and enjoy a fulfilled social life and are in high standing with their peers. Somehow this social interaction promotes certain manners or induces the release of certain chemicals in the brain or body that are beneficial and reinforce the protective abilities of the immune system. When one knows one is being prayed for, especially by a great many people, I would expect this prayee would experience some form of NATURAL beneficial effect. Oh well.
I am also of the opinion that religion is quite good for the economy. Really. For the poor: "Take it in the ass thie lifetime around, and you'll get into heaven." Quite nice for keeping the unhappy masses in line, eh?
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
gamma11 > east
We live in a deterministic universe: meaning that anything, and everything, can be predetermined ahead of time if we know all of the variables such as position, velocity, and time. (Although with electrons and some other sub-atomic quarks it is impossible to know the position and velocity at the same time, this however seems to not affect the world outside the atom.) Even thought patterns are just neurons and axon bulbs firing and reacting to each other; if there was a scientist who knew every position and motion of every molecule in the universe, he could predict the future perfectly.
That being said, there is no possible way there is a greater power 'pulling strings' or 'creating miracles' because that goes against everything science has proved to be factual. Ever since The Big Bang, only physics has shaped our world and our universe. But prior to this event, when all matter was condensed into a singularity, the very fabric of space-time would be wrapped around itself so not even time could be defined. In this state there is no way for anyone to refute anything from a Christian God creating life, to Barney farting, because the laws of physics do not hold up.
A belief in a higher power gives people (false) hope, strength, and determination. It also helps install morals which are beneficial to the entire community. However, like any great power, religion has been twisted into an unrecognisable plague used to launch 'holy' wars, extort money from people, allow terrible leaders to gain power (like Bush and Hitler), and cause incredible amounts of discrimination and hate.
What if our universe was actually created by something so crazy that you couldn't even imagine it.
Ever tried to imagine the unimaginable?
"How can human beings even hope to fathom the workings of a beyond-beyondness entity? For all we know our physics and atoms were made simply for shits and giggles. Dinosaurs were put on Earth to test our faith!"
(Okay, the last bit was aimed more towards established Religious schools.)
But outside the popular faiths we have today, where it's easy to disprove based on evidence on particular events provided by their own teachings, the belief of a God, in general, is hard to dispute.
"God doesn't exist is because Man-made laws and rules indicate otherwise?
He's God. His rules are the only rules."
And yes, you can say this isn't a proper argument, but in my opinion it is. In fact, if we must assume that God plays within the boundaries of Human sciences then what kind of God is he? Still, we must confine to the rules of logical thinking and scientific method etc. Or else shit won't get done.
At a stretch it'd be some super advanced being, but nothing close to the cosmic, omnipotent beyondness with an inexplicable tendency to prey upon the Human race 'too much.'
eh i dont think that "agnostic athiest" is the right term... agnostic is unsure and athiest is dont believe in god... ur athiest but if presented with overwhelming evidence of a god you would believe... i dont think thats agnostic athiest but idk what to call it lol
gamma11 > east
ok science can explain how sperm and egg can create a multicellular organism in 40 weeks... look it up before u speak plz... and science cannot explain certain things because our intelligence is limited to what we have experienced etc... we have not experienced the big bang so we do not know why it happend... all we know is that there is a definate age to the universe far predating the fuckin biblical stories... we explain things scientifically throiugh experimenting and experiencing first hand the marvels of science... until we experience some of ur "mysteries" we cannot explain what hasnt been documented
gamma11 > east
First off, I wouldn't say I'm an Atheist. To be Atheist one must posess faith, the same kind of faith religious people use to believe in a God, to blindly believe that there is no God. Are you an embriotic biologist? Because I'm not, but I'm sure there are many Biologists out there who could describe to you how this occurs.
I believe more bewildering questions occur when asking how the first cell began, and maybe more puzzling: how the first multi-cellular being arrived. While science has proved the spontaneous creation of biological material (proteins) from abiotic is possible, there are still mysteries in our evolution that are waiting to be discovered. Thousands of years ago people would say "then how does the Sun rise? see? There has to be a God." Those who want to believe are slowly running out of examples to point at where science can not explain. But that does not mean that these are counter-examples to a God-less world, as all other examples before have been proven to be part of nature.
I think a more healthy version of God would be for people to not look for a divine being sitting up in the clouds who will send you to an eternity of torment if you are bad or refuse to believe in him, but rather a more intangible essence or spirituality that ties all life together. I like the idea of Karma, and while I know it is not true, putting out good energy and kindness repays you much more than being selfish. I really hate to see generations being brainwashed at a young age to fanatically believe in a religion that in all probability is false, and told that if they stop believing they will go to a burning Hell where all other non-believers go. Go watch Jesus Camp if you aren't sure. The Evangelicals in the USA are the reason that a government so corrupt, so neglectful of the well-being of its citizens, can go to, and remain in power. With so much "faith" being pumped into Christianity, and the Republican USA, those in the White House can litterally get away with murder (and continue their regime towards New World Order).
gamma11 > east
pleae..im asking nicely, dont bring any Masonic references into this... And you say that it's "probability" of being correct is false. But heres the thing. IF it was true then your understanding of anything would be very wrong and you would not be able to calculate the probability of it. Nor can you use math to truly calculate the possibility of a god existing now anyways. And to say that it's brainwash is garbage for many religions, besides that even, most households today BARELY even go to church and most of their brainwash comes from biology class, they dont really believe in religion because of a lack of exposure and are forced to accept evolution as ultimate truth. That the real brainwash of the nation
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I'll respond in reverse order:
Teaching children factual science is not brainwashing. If you believe evolution didn't happen and isn't still happening, then you are oblivious the the endless biological and anthrological evidence proving it.
I love how you misconstrued my sentence and pick out a single word in order to justify a retaliation. "In all probability" was in talking about the Christian religion and how we know it today. Not only has Christianity changed so many times over the years, but there are countless other religions that are just as valid. In all probability the Christian God which we know at this instant, does not exist. Is that unfair to speculate the out of the thousands of supernatural deities, (in which there is no scientific evidence at all to support any of them) this specific one most likely does not exist? Come on man...
Were you referring to my new world order comment when you said Masonic? I'm not going to get into this issue because it is but it's coming... And we will welcome it with open arms.
No, evolution is controversial for many its factual to you but i have seen no evidence as Equinox would say that prove a Lizard can grow feathers. As another would say that i found very interesting is if animals can evolve and adapt to their environment then why haven't we found a creature that can avoid death,In order to evolve and survive avoiding death seems pretty important don't ya think? But still they all die. Theres many flaws in evolution that if you look hard enough on youtube you can find interview of world renowned college professors of evolution getting stumped by some interviewers question on evolution. The whole thing is still a bluurry theory and should be taken with many grains of salt.
And i didn't misconstrue your sentence, you should have made it more clear. And it doesn't matter whats fair for your childhood religion to be, that is irrelevant because you are a child. What do children do? DEPEND ON THEIR PARENTS. They DEPEND on their parents to lead them in the right direction with everything and trust that they have their best interest in mind, this goes for religion as well.
If you do desire to go into some sort of idea concerning Illuminati and Masonry in their relationship to something silly such as them intentionally attempting to control governments with religion choose your words carefully.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Making Controversial points one post at a time!
I really like the way you think. Actually, I believe in God but I'm not a devout christian. The Catholic faith tells me that in order to be loved by God, we must go to church every Sunday to practice our beliefs. I seriously doubt that because for me, I also believe in Karma and i believe you can practice your faith anywhere and it shouldn't be restricted to the church alone. As for the Science vs. Religion issue, I think there's no point in this battle because let's face it, everyone has their own beliefs and has their own concept on things and you can't make these people believe in what you believe because we are all unique and we think differently. I am a man of science, I love studying about Astronomy. Believe me, I'm not a guy you should be fighting. As much as possible, i keep a balance between faith and science because it gives me more reason to live in a world filled with mysteries and wonders. I believe in the supernatural, in the paranormal, even in miracles. There are certain things you can't really explain in life. like miracles that happen to everyday people. Whether we like it or not, we are not born to this world to understand everything because if we want to do that, it would take many lifetimes to achieve that goal.
well they believe when they die they go to paradise so idk
gamma11 > east