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Attack - Increases damage dealt. Applies to all damage types (physical, elemental) and sources (it affects your pets). 1 Attack == 1% damage.
Precision - Increases critical strike rate. Unknown formula. Appears to be diminish in effectiveness as your character levels. May vary per class. At level 13, my Wiz has 87 Precision with a 6.16% chance to crit. This translates to each point of precision being worth 0.071~% crit; roughly 14 precision = 1% crit at level 13.
Defense - Reduces damage taken. Applies to all damage types (physical, elemental) and sources (melee, ranged, dots, etc). Appears to be diminish in effectiveness as your character levels. At level 13, my Wiz has 89 defense, with a 59.38% reduction to all damage. This translates to each point of defense being worth 0.668~% damage reduction; roughly 15 defense = 10% damage reduction at level 13.
Vitality: This translates directly into Health. Amount of HP per point seems to vary slightly per class.
Secondary Attributes
All percentage based bonuses (excluding +Crit Damage %, because that goes over 100%) appear to be multiplicative, not additive. EG: 2x 50% dodge buffs would result in a 75% chance to dodge, not 100%. [(1 - 0.5) * (1 - 0.5)] = 0.25
Armor - Reduces physical damage taken only. Appears to be diminish in effectiveness as your character levels. At level 13, my Wiz has 145 armor, with 18.24% physical damage reduction. This translates to each point of armor being worth 0.126~% phys DR; roughly 80 armor = 10% phys DR at level 13.
Resistances - Reduce damage to the respective element by a percentage. I have found no resist gear yet, so I cannot give any values.
Critical Damage - Crits of all type deal 150% damage baseline. The + % Crit Damage affix increases that percentage.
Block - Block reduces the damage of a physical melee/ranged attack by a flat value. Blocks are not a complete negation of that hit, as they were in D2.
Dodge - Dodge completely avoids the attack. It appears to only work on melee/non-spell ranged attacks. There is no dodge animation, it is just a combat roll.
Weapons 2 Handers
Highest base damage, so you will hit the hardest
They appear to have lower weapon spread than faster weapons, ensuring you do big damage more consistently
Animation times are slower
Less resource generation (for monk/barb/DH in some cases)
Less crits/procs
Dual Wield
Innate 15% attack speed bonus
Weapon have large damage ranges, so if the RNG gods are unkind you may be T_T
Lots of attacks = lots of crits and procs
More resource generation
Remember that with dual wield, the attacks alternate between main and offhand
1H + Shield
Armor boost, obviously
You can block attacks
The damage lost here is actually relatively small (in theory). Essentially, you do a bit less DPS than dual wielding (assuming the dual wielding weapons are identical in DPS/stats)
With some more measurements we could try to reverse engineer the formulas behind armor, precision and defense. If anyone feels like doing this I have some ideas on how to proceed.
Armor - Reduces physical damage taken only. Appears to be diminish in effectiveness as your character levels. At level 13, my Wiz has 145 armor, with 18.24% physical damage reduction. This translates to each point of armor being worth 0.126~% phys DR; roughly 80 armor = 10% phys DR at level 13.
Defense - Reduces damage taken. Applies to all damage types (physical, elemental) and sources (melee, ranged, dots, etc). Appears to be diminish in effectiveness as your character levels. At level 13, my Wiz has 89 defense, with a 59.38% reduction to all damage. This translates to each point of defense being worth 0.668~% damage reduction; roughly 15 defense = 10% damage reduction at level 13.
It's unreasonable to assume that Armor and Defense provide a flat amount of DR per point as this would constitute extremely strong increasing returns if you measured its effect in terms of survival time. I'd guess that it either has exponential returns, or linear returns with respect to survival time like in World of Warcraft.
Resistances - Reduce damage to the respective element by a percentage. I have found no resist gear yet, so I cannot give any values.
Are you sure about this? I seem to recall someone saying elsewhere that resistance was a flat damage reduction.
With some more measurements we could try to reverse engineer the formulas behind armor, precision and defense. If anyone feels like doing this I have some ideas on how to proceed.
I would like to start digging into the numbers and looking for people to do the same. I think playing around with Excel would be the best way to go about it. I have a Vent server (15 max, mainly for a few friends, BUT others can join if you want to discusse out loud and reporting the final thoughts here). PM me I also have a few thoughts on how to measure base stats and percent changes.
Figuring out Defense, Armor and Resistance scaling should be very easy if the mechanics are similar to WoW.
The formula from WoW is:
%DR = 100% - (100% / (x*Armor + 100%)), where x is a different number for each character level.
On the other hand, it appears that Precision is directly proportional to Crit, as in:
%Crit = y*Precision, where y is a different number for each character level
Since both of these formulae are directly proportional (ie, linear no threshold), you technically only need one datapoint to figure out the scaling value - simply divide one value by the other. However, to account for rounding error you will want to average out at least 3 datapoints.
If %DR is the displayed damage reduction (from Defense, Armor, or Resistance), then let %ieHP equal incremental effective HP (ie, the percent gain in effective HP over zero damage reduction):
%ieHP = (100% * %DR) / (100% - %DR)
This can be shown to be directly proportional to Armor as below:
However, if there is a threshold for Defense (ie, below a certain amount of Defense you get zero damage reduction) the formula will no longer be direct proportional. This appears likely as I've seen several screenshots of players with positive amounts of Defense but 0% damage reduction.
Figuring out Defense, Armor and Resistance scaling should be very easy if the mechanics are similar to WoW.
The formula from WoW is:
%DR = 100% - (100% / (x*Armor + 100%)), where x is a different number for each character level.
On the other hand, it appears that Precision is directly proportional to Crit, as in:
%Crit = y*Precision, where y is a different number for each character level
Since both of these formulae are directly proportional (ie, linear no threshold), you technically only need one datapoint to figure out the scaling value - simply divide one value by the other. However, to account for rounding error you will want to average out at least 3 datapoints.
If %DR is the displayed damage reduction (from Defense, Armor, or Resistance), then let %ieHP equal incremental effective HP (ie, the percent gain in effective HP over zero damage reduction):
%ieHP = (100% * %DR) / (100% - %DR)
This can be shown to be directly proportional to Armor as below:
However, if there is a threshold for Defense (ie, below a certain amount of Defense you get zero damage reduction) the formula will no longer be direct proportional. This appears likely as I've seen several screenshots of players with positive amounts of Defense but 0% damage reduction.
Another thing we are unsure of is if there are any hard caps or diminishing returns thresholds. I suspect that kind of info will only become available once people are at level cap though >_>.
Another thing we are unsure of is if there are any hard caps or diminishing returns thresholds. I suspect that kind of info will only become available once people are at level cap though >_>.
Good point. Although, if there are good uniques equippable at a low level (like a diablo 3 version of sigon's set) it may be possible to test out Armor cap with lowbies. (since it takes less Armor to get the same % damage reduction at low levels)
Another thing we are unsure of is if there are any hard caps or diminishing returns thresholds. I suspect that kind of info will only become available once people are at level cap though >_>.
Good point. Although, if there are good uniques equippable at a low level (like a diablo 3 version of sigon's set) it may be possible to test out Armor cap with lowbies. (since it takes less Armor to get the same % damage reduction at low levels)
I'm with both of you on your train of thought. I wrote a PM to Force, ScyberDragon, and Sixen about this. He is the main chunk of it:
Say you liked the Wizard and wanted to figure out the Min/Max stats. Going off armor you could make guesses, and stats at level 13 in Beta, but it won't be close and highly prone errors.
I feel the proper way to do this is:
1) Take down the stats of the "naked" (no armor on/ no self buffs / no player buffs for each level; 1-13.
2)Take down the stats of the "NOT naked" (WITH armor on, +stats only / WITH self buffs, +stats only / With player buffs, +stats only for, each level; 1-13. Will explain why bellow.
3) The change in +dmg, +crit, +crit dmg, etc. Basically a screenshot of the character sheet (for each of the above).
4) Lastly, a note of which stats go up, at which levels, by how much, from levels 1-13. This is to see if there is a trend that can be taken and projected to level 60.
The reason for the two different stats above is two-fold:
A) Gives a bare character stat increase, like the 4th note above, gives us a starting point for figuring out which ability is better, rather than the end point of the ability itself.
Someone made a note on the forums about this. They said a beta tester noted that there seemed to be a diminishing returns on gaining more of a stat (like WOW). While this isn't anything ground breaking, in the sense that it hasn't been done before; this is the reason for the second recording.
The diminishing returns will most likely be small per each level, but will only be detectable if you have a rather LARGE amount of a stat going from level to level to level. Also, DR may not take effect till Level 10, 30, or not, but must keep in mind while doing this.
Example:
Say at level 10, 15 crit rating (I know bad WOW ref.) = 1%crit
and at level 11, 17 crit rating = 1% crit
At level 10 you have say 15 crit rating, therefore you have 1.000% crit
at level 11 you have the same 15 crit rating, therefore you have 0.882% crit
but taking better gear to bump up, (for better accuracy):
At level 10 you have 32crit rating, therefore you have 2.133% crit
at level 11 you have the same 32 crit rating, therefore you have 1.882% crit
"Okay so bigger number, bigger percent crit, but still apples and oranges..."
Yes you are correct, but that's not what I am worried about, it's the percent error. Remember, for this and all stats we don't know that lv10, 15=1% and lv 11, 17=1% so here's the end result
15 / 1.000 = 15.000 15 / 0.882 = 17.006
32 / 2.133 = 15.0023 32 / 1.882 = 17.003
Taking the fact with more crit in the second set of numbers,you get a much closer number to 17 (all be it small) but it proves the point.
So this is why I said point 1-4 matter; a quick proof that,will only be proven more as the rating to percent increases get more exaggerated (if DR is in D3) at higher levels, with max gems and runes.
My logic here is:
1) figure out base stat increase per level.
2) figure out %crit, % dmg, %mf, etc. per changes above only.
3) attempt to determine if DR is in game, or not.
4) figure out procces for formulas (without gear, buffs).
5) figure out procces for formulas (with gear, buffs).
6) start factoring in abilities.
I'm going to start an Excel worksheet based of your ideas and my own this weekend. HOPEFULLY we can get some in-game numbers to start. This be a good start to building a D3 Skill and Stat Calculator, for any level not just max.
The latter formalism (X instead of Y) is slightly easier to work with because it directly includes effective HP (= 100% + Armor*X), although you could always use (100% + Armor/Y).
Yes, my friends. I have figured it out: the inner workings of Defense, Armor & Resistances.
You can set L = 1 to 60. It represents the hero level. Note that the result is for enemies of equivalent level only.
98 Defense results in 1/3 ~ 33.3% reduced damage from all sources.
188 Defense results in 1/2 ~ 50.0% reduced damage from all sources.
368 Defense results in 2/3 ~ 66.6% reduced damage from all sources.
548 Defense results in 3/4 ~ 75.0% reduced damage from all sources.
728 Defense results in 4/5 ~ 80.0% reduced damage from all sources.
Every additional point in Defense (after the Threshold) is worth +5/9% EHP (Effective Health). Just like it was in beta4. The new Threshold is at 8, so never a concern. The linear EHP scaling stays the same.
- Defense(as +EHP%) (y:Additional Effective Health in %, x:Additional Defense after reaching the threshold)
Minumum Defense Threshold => 2 * Level + 6 => 0% DR
This is the minimum Defense required (at a given level). Once a hero reaches this threshold any additional Defense points will grant damage reduction, according to the given formula.
- Defense(as +EHP%) (y:Additional Effective Health in %, x:Additional Defense after reaching the threshold)
At Level 60 the Minumum Defense Threshold is 126. Having 306 Defense (an additional +180) will give you 50% DR, which is equivalent to +100% EHP. Your effective health is 200%, as you only recieve half the damage.
150 Resistance grants 1/3 ~ 33.3% resistance to that type.
300 Resistance grants 1/2 ~ 50.0% resistance to that type.
600 Resistance grants 2/3 ~ 66.6% resistance to that type.
900 Resistance grants 3/4 ~ 75.0% resistance to that type.
----
Physical Damage is reduced by Defense and Armor ratings Elemental Damage (Fire, Cold, Lightning, Poison, Holy, Arcane) is reduced by Defense and the respective Resistance rating (each element seperately)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Traitors! Even in death, the armies of Khanduras will still obey their king!"
You can set L = 1 to 60. It sets the players level. Note that the result is for enemies of the same level only.
So for Defense, after you exceed the minimum defense threshold, you get +5/9% EHP per point, stacked additively.
For Armor, it's +1/30% EHP per point, also stacked additively.
Good. That means linear returns for both of those stats with respect to survival time, just like Attack stacks linearly with respect to damage. That makes them easy to compare.
You could also write Defense's bonus as +( 1/(Level*3) )% EHP per point
You can set L = 1 to 60. It sets the players level. Note that the result is for enemies of the same level only.
Those formulae appear to fit all known data points. Excellent!
I am surprised by how simple the level-scaling is (pure linear), and also by the rather high minimum threshold for Defense. I presume that most classes will be close to the threshold just due to levelup points, so gear will basically add to that.
To find out how the elemental resistances work we'll require some more data. However I assume it will be somewhat like Armor just with a different scaling. Something like this.
I'll look at Vitality and Precision later on.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Traitors! Even in death, the armies of Khanduras will still obey their king!"
Precision - Increases critical strike rate. Unknown formula. Appears to be diminish in effectiveness as your character levels. May vary per class. At level 13, my Wiz has 87 Precision with a 6.16% chance to crit. This translates to each point of precision being worth 0.071~% crit; roughly 14 precision = 1% crit at level 13.
It's pretty clear that Precision has to work this way. If one precision equals one percent chance to crit, they would only be able to have each slot have 2-3 tops of precision or you would always crit.
Is there a way we could look at how much it changes per level and try to extrapolate what it will be at level 60 to give us some idea as to what would be necessary on level 60 gear to make that stat worthwhile?
I've been working on an all-in-one calculator for all classes. (working off the Wizard right now). By all-in-one I mean:
1). You'll be able to pick which level you want (in order to start with correct base stats)
2). You'll see how much XP till next level
3). You'll be able to see what you're base Details will be (Crit, crit dmg, DR, etc) that are based off stats
4) be able to (EVENTUALLY!!!) factor in gear on top of base stats for a true look at your character at level 60
DISCLAIMER:
-The white numbers in the Attribute table are filler numbers not actually.
-Read the "NOTE" in the semi-orange about the projected level 60 stats.
-The "Total Increase", AVG. Attribute (Per Level)", and "Projected Level 60 Stats" are based on the first 13 levels distribution only, hence the number 13 in the chart is yellow to remind me.
-Still need to add in, DPS, all Details from Character sheet, and make a decent looking Paper Doll.
-MOST OF ALL, need formulas for % and other things that are not simply 1 for 1
Will update, most likely in new thread, when it's done with More description, how to use.
Picture of Calculator:
Picture of Details I need to add:
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Core Attributes
Secondary Attributes
All percentage based bonuses (excluding +Crit Damage %, because that goes over 100%) appear to be multiplicative, not additive. EG: 2x 50% dodge buffs would result in a 75% chance to dodge, not 100%. [(1 - 0.5) * (1 - 0.5)] = 0.25
Weapons
2 Handers
Dual Wield
1H + Shield
Weapon Speeds
Anyone else find anything useful?
With some more measurements we could try to reverse engineer the formulas behind armor, precision and defense. If anyone feels like doing this I have some ideas on how to proceed.
Are you sure about this? I seem to recall someone saying elsewhere that resistance was a flat damage reduction.
The tooltips for each resistance clearly state that each resistance value reduces the damage from that element by a percentage.
I would like to start digging into the numbers and looking for people to do the same. I think playing around with Excel would be the best way to go about it. I have a Vent server (15 max, mainly for a few friends, BUT others can join if you want to discusse out loud and reporting the final thoughts here). PM me I also have a few thoughts on how to measure base stats and percent changes.
The formula from WoW is:
On the other hand, it appears that Precision is directly proportional to Crit, as in:
Since both of these formulae are directly proportional (ie, linear no threshold), you technically only need one datapoint to figure out the scaling value - simply divide one value by the other. However, to account for rounding error you will want to average out at least 3 datapoints.
If %DR is the displayed damage reduction (from Defense, Armor, or Resistance), then let %ieHP equal incremental effective HP (ie, the percent gain in effective HP over zero damage reduction):
This can be shown to be directly proportional to Armor as below:
However, if there is a threshold for Defense (ie, below a certain amount of Defense you get zero damage reduction) the formula will no longer be direct proportional. This appears likely as I've seen several screenshots of players with positive amounts of Defense but 0% damage reduction.
Another thing we are unsure of is if there are any hard caps or diminishing returns thresholds. I suspect that kind of info will only become available once people are at level cap though >_>.
Good point. Although, if there are good uniques equippable at a low level (like a diablo 3 version of sigon's set) it may be possible to test out Armor cap with lowbies. (since it takes less Armor to get the same % damage reduction at low levels)
I'm with both of you on your train of thought. I wrote a PM to Force, ScyberDragon, and Sixen about this. He is the main chunk of it:
My logic here is:
1) figure out base stat increase per level.
2) figure out %crit, % dmg, %mf, etc. per changes above only.
3) attempt to determine if DR is in game, or not.
4) figure out procces for formulas (without gear, buffs).
5) figure out procces for formulas (with gear, buffs).
6) start factoring in abilities.
I'm going to start an Excel worksheet based of your ideas and my own this weekend. HOPEFULLY we can get some in-game numbers to start. This be a good start to building a D3 Skill and Stat Calculator, for any level not just max.
That is not the formula WoW uses. It uses this (at max level at least):
DR = TOTAL_ARMOR/(TOTAL_ARMOR+2167.5*ATTACKER_LEVEL-158167.5)
It's also capped at 75% DR. What you see in the character sheet assumes an attacker equal to your level.
The two formulae are mathematically equivalent:
QED.
The latter formalism (X instead of Y) is slightly easier to work with because it directly includes effective HP (= 100% + Armor*X), although you could always use (100% + Armor/Y).
You can set L = 1 to 60. It represents the hero level. Note that the result is for enemies of equivalent level only.
- Defense formula has changed in beta 5...
Graph/Comparison (level 60; beta4:red, beta5:blue)
Some numbers for level 60:
Every additional point in Defense (after the Threshold) is worth +5/9% EHP (Effective Health). Just like it was in beta4. The new Threshold is at 8, so never a concern. The linear EHP scaling stays the same.
- Defense(as +EHP%) (y:Additional Effective Health in %, x:Additional Defense after reaching the threshold)
------------------------------------------------------
<-- (beta 4) obsolete -->
- //www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot+Max[100%28x-%282L%2B6%29%29%2F%28x-%282L%2B6%29%2B3L%29%2C0">+x%3D100..1000%2C+L%3D60"]Defense (as +DR%) (y:DR%, x:Defense)
Minumum Defense Threshold => 2 * Level + 6 => 0% DR
This is the minimum Defense required (at a given level). Once a hero reaches this threshold any additional Defense points will grant damage reduction, according to the given formula.
- Defense(as +EHP%) (y:Additional Effective Health in %, x:Additional Defense after reaching the threshold)
At Level 60 the Minumum Defense Threshold is 126. Having 306 Defense (an additional +180) will give you 50% DR, which is equivalent to +100% EHP. Your effective health is 200%, as you only recieve half the damage.
Base defense stats for all heroes (at level 60):
Some numbers for level 60:
------------------------------------------------------
- Armor (as +DR%) (y:DR%, x:Armor) or Armor (as +EHP%) (y:Additional Effective Health in %, x:Armor)
Some numbers for level 60:
- Resistances (as +DR%) (y:DR%, x:Resistance) or Resistance (as +EHP%) (y:Additional Effective Health in %, x:Resistance)
Some numbers for level 60:
----
Physical Damage is reduced by Defense and Armor ratings
Elemental Damage (Fire, Cold, Lightning, Poison, Holy, Arcane) is reduced by Defense and the respective Resistance rating (each element seperately)
For Armor, it's +1/30% EHP per point, also stacked additively.
Good. That means linear returns for both of those stats with respect to survival time, just like Attack stacks linearly with respect to damage. That makes them easy to compare.
You could also write Defense's bonus as +( 1/(Level*3) )% EHP per point
Those formulae appear to fit all known data points. Excellent!
I am surprised by how simple the level-scaling is (pure linear), and also by the rather high minimum threshold for Defense. I presume that most classes will be close to the threshold just due to levelup points, so gear will basically add to that.
I'll look at Vitality and Precision later on.
It's pretty clear that Precision has to work this way. If one precision equals one percent chance to crit, they would only be able to have each slot have 2-3 tops of precision or you would always crit.
Is there a way we could look at how much it changes per level and try to extrapolate what it will be at level 60 to give us some idea as to what would be necessary on level 60 gear to make that stat worthwhile?
I've been working on an all-in-one calculator for all classes. (working off the Wizard right now). By all-in-one I mean:
1). You'll be able to pick which level you want (in order to start with correct base stats)
2). You'll see how much XP till next level
3). You'll be able to see what you're base Details will be (Crit, crit dmg, DR, etc) that are based off stats
4) be able to (EVENTUALLY!!!) factor in gear on top of base stats for a true look at your character at level 60
DISCLAIMER:
-The white numbers in the Attribute table are filler numbers not actually.
-Read the "NOTE" in the semi-orange about the projected level 60 stats.
-The "Total Increase", AVG. Attribute (Per Level)", and "Projected Level 60 Stats" are based on the first 13 levels distribution only, hence the number 13 in the chart is yellow to remind me.
-Still need to add in, DPS, all Details from Character sheet, and make a decent looking Paper Doll.
-MOST OF ALL, need formulas for % and other things that are not simply 1 for 1
Will update, most likely in new thread, when it's done with More description, how to use.
Picture of Calculator:
Picture of Details I need to add: