Calculating chance of crafting "Perfects"

  • #21
    Quote from MadViking

    Quote from Dumatrunks

    I can tell you that by now, I must have crafted at least 75 of these +2 enhancement bracers, and never come up with just 1 enhancement. It leads me to believe that the enhances are static.

    Also, for those interested in my findings, you can view them here:

    https://docs.google....eVE&output=html

    Very good work! I understand everything except the "L/Gl", what exactly is that? It also seems that the 2 random mods can't be just any 2, for example you haven't rolled any with more than one different + attrib on them (except +vit, which isn't random). So it would seem that it's not possible to get both +Str and +Dex.

    In D2 many rare items could be completely kick-ass without each mod being the max possible. For example a dual leech ring was still very good, even if it was "only" 5% LL and 5% ML. Same will probably go for crafting in D3, as long as you roll the specific mods it will still be very powerful.


    L/Gl = + Life per Globe.

    You are absolutely right, during my crafting experiments I never have managed to hit a combination of two of the three class dependent attributes (Dex, Int, Str). That could also account for those being tied into ONE enhancement for later item level slots. For example, my quiver:

    ...well it looks like the image i'm trying to upload needs to be cleared by an admin first. The stats are like this though:

    +17 Str
    +17 Dex
    +11 MF
  • #22
    If you look at this wand:

    http://us.battle.net...l=2&slot=ranged

    You'll see that this weapon comes with an automatic main stat, of course there is a range for the value of that stat, and there are many other versions of this sort of example. However, at higher levels of crafting those dissapear. Another interesting thing to consider are weapons for a specific class. EX, a wand is usually wizard only, but there are 2h weapons that aren't limited. I would imagine that a wizard only weapon could not have something like STR on it, as it would be really poor design to have someone make a wand that had a higher chance of rolling STR or DEX on it then it did of getting INT, unless my understanding is wrong in this regard if there are three of those stats, you have 1/3 chance of getting INT on it. (Assuming you get one of those stats in the first place.) But on a weapon where there is no class requirement it would make sense for it to be any stat, this allows for melee wizard, and Demon Hunters.

    This is all speculation, as we don't know enough for sure, but since I don't have the beta it's impossible for me to test how it holds up. But if so it will have an effect on the probability of a particular item rolling with the stats you want.

    Edit: Spelling error.

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  • #23
    so it looks like we cant have item with 2 core attributes like +str/dex. Had anyone mannaged to craft anything with 2 same affixes like + 7%GF / +11%GF or is this imposible?
  • #24
    Quote from octancz

    so it looks like we cant have item with 2 core attributes like +str/dex. Had anyone mannaged to craft anything with 2 same affixes like + 7%GF / +11%GF or is this imposible?


    In Diablo II it was not possible to get double affixes, so I assume that it is the same with Diablo III. Maybe higher level items can come with 2 core attributes, but I somehow doubt this.
  • #25
    2 core attributes is possible, and also quite likely at >2 random magic properties. In just a few crafts today I had this one for example.







    There's no way double/triple/quadruple affixes of the same kind will be in the game though. If it is, it is a huge design flaw.
  • #26
    Is durability a modifier that differs ? Or it will be ?
    I don't have access to beta so I can't test.
    Was wondering thou if it will be somehow an important stat if it differs. I seen on site saying durability 50-65. I guess an item with same stats but with higher durability will be better if you die a lot in Inferno.
  • #27
    Quote from rawerpower

    Is durability a modifier that differs ? Or it will be ?
    I don't have access to beta so I can't test.
    Was wondering thou if it will be somehow an important stat if it differs. I seen on site saying durability 50-65. I guess an item with same stats but with higher durability will be better if you die a lot in Inferno.


    It isn't a modifier per se, but it's in the game as in your gear needs repairing. I thought about this as well two days ago, to my knowledge there's currently no visible way of telling in your char sheet or tooltip whether your gear needs repairing.
  • #28
    Quote from Superstate

    2 core attributes is possible, and also quite likely at >2 random magic properties. In just a few crafts today I had this one for example.







    There's no way double/triple/quadruple affixes of the same kind will be in the game though. If it is, it is a huge design flaw.


    I checked the blacksmith level 10 crafting stuff, they all have 5 random affixes. So if these numbers you guys have crunched are even remotely close, then its going to be hard to get a perfect-godly item. I guess those items will sell for a lot perhaps.
  • #29
    Quote from octancz

    so it looks like we cant have item with 2 core attributes like +str/dex. Had anyone mannaged to craft anything with 2 same affixes like + 7%GF / +11%GF or is this imposible?


    Double affixes was possible in patch 12. I crafted a pair of pants with double slow on hit:
  • #30
    Quote from Superstate

    Quote from rawerpower

    Is durability a modifier that differs ?


    It isn't a modifier per se, but it's in the game as in your gear needs repairing.
    It seems from the picture before and I checked some crafting videos on youtube too that "same item" type have different durability.
    So my conclusion would be, staying on topic, that even if an item would have all max stats but the not maximum durability also, it wouldn't be a perfect item. :)
  • #31
    Quote from octancz

    so it looks like we cant have item with 2 core attributes like +str/dex. Had anyone mannaged to craft anything with 2 same affixes like + 7%GF / +11%GF or is this imposible?


    I was staring at that spreadsheet until it hit me: Those core stats are all suffixes! At first I thought the item could only get one prefix and one suffix for the 2 random properties, but that doesn't quite seem to be the case.

    Prefixes: MF (Scouting), Crit (Iron), PickUp (Gathering), Exp (Adventuring), Regen (Reptilian), L/Gl (Mending), GF (Lucky)

    Suffixes: Str (of the Lion), Dex (of the Hawk), Int (of the Sentry), Thorns (of Thorns), Vit (of the Bear)

    So, none of the items ever have more than 1 of the random suffixes, but there are a few with 2 prefixes and 0 suffixes. However, since Vitality is also a suffix, perhaps the rule is that a magic item can't have more than 2 prefixes or 2 suffixes. This fits all the data points and explains why we don't see double attributes at all on this item. A crafted item that didn't have a built-in suffix should then be able to roll double attributes.

    Quote from Superstate

    2 core attributes is possible, and also quite likely at >2 random magic properties. In just a few crafts today I had this one for example.

    *SNIP*
    Vindication Breath
    +30 Dexterity
    +30 Vitality
    Increased attack speed by 7%
    Each Hit Adds +1 Life


    Since this is a rare item, it likely doesn't have the same prefix/suffix restrictions that a magic item has. On this particular rare I believe all 4 of those affixes are suffixes, so it seems the rule from D2 about max 3 prefixes and 3 suffixes on a rare has changed. It will be interesting to see if there is a different limit, or if the affixes on a rare can be all prefixes or all suffixes.

    Quote from FightenWurdz

    Double affixes was possible in patch 12. I crafted a pair of pants with double slow on hit:

    *SNIP*
    Crippling Chain Leggings of the Bear
    +26 Vitality
    2.1% Chance to Slow on Hit

    (Crippling is supposed to be 1.00% - 1.25% chance...clearly it rolled that affix twice)


    That has got to be a bug. I can't imagine they intend for items to be able to double-up on a given stat. If you haven't already, you might want to report this.
  • #32
    Another interesting aspect of item generation is that the min/max values used in the formulas for each stat are floats. The affix display strings use formatting codes to round values to a certain number of decimal places for display, but my strong suspicion is that the generated value can be any float between the min and max. This has a couple consequences:

    1) You only have half the chance of rolling either the min or max value. If the range is 3-5 then 3.0-3.5 will give you a 3, 3.5-4.5 will give a 4, and 4.5-5.0 will give a 5.

    2) Even if the item displays the max value, in all likelihood its still not perfect since the actual value is probably being rounded up for display.

    This could be confirmed by finding a set of items that don't add exactly the amount of a given stat as you think they should from adding the values together. If true, this makes buying items on the AH a bit more interesting since you don't know exactly what the underlying value is (though, it can't be any more than 0.5 below the displayed value at worst).
  • #33
    Previously blizzard have been using tables for assigning random properties and loot generation in general from monster kills, gambling etc. While they perhaps aren't exact integers, a 5 on item A is the same as a 5 on item B.

    I also believe having an "invisible" range would go against what Blizz wants when it comes to AH and comparing items in general. They don't want you to equip a multitude of item sets to determine which item has 0,1 more of a stat.
  • #34
    Quote from zimira

    Previously blizzard have been using tables for assigning random properties and loot generation in general from monster kills, gambling etc. While they perhaps aren't exact integers, a 5 on item A is the same as a 5 on item B.


    In D2, stats for affixes were defined in the data files as a straight up min and max value. These values were integers, though some stats interpreted them as fixed point fractions. In either case, the numbers were interpreted with the same precision that the actual stat was measured in. When an affix was generated for an item, the game simply used an integer random number generator to select a value between the min and max.

    In D3, stats for affixes are defined as a series of instructions to compute the value. These instructions are essentially a sort of assembly language for a virtual machine the game uses to be able to store and evaluate arbitrary formulas. All of the values in these formulas are stored as IEEE floating point values. When the formula computes a random number from a min and max, it takes 2 floats as input and outputs a float and the result of the overall formula is a float.

    Some stats definitely store their values as floating point (e.g. resource regeneration and chance on hit affixes). Looking at http://www.d3inferno.com/attributes.xml you can see several versions of Str/Dex/Int/Vit stats. Some are stored as Int while others are stored as float16. I don't have an updated list of attribute encodings for Patch 13 to check the AffixList.gam stats against, but it seems possible for the values to be stored either way for any given stat.

    In either case, stats that are displayed with fractional digits are almost certainly stored as floating point and, thus, the values displayed in-game are only accurate to +/- half of the least significant digit displayed.

    Quote from zimira

    I also believe having an "invisible" range would go against what Blizz wants when it comes to AH and comparing items in general. They don't want you to equip a multitude of item sets to determine which item has 0,1 more of a stat.


    I'm not even sure if its possible in principle to accurately figure out what the real value on any given item would be in-game, though I guess that a bit moot since it would certainly be possible to have an external program examine the memory space of D3 while its running and spit out the actual values if they were stored as floats.

    Realistically, though, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. At best you are looking at +/-6.5 points to any given integer stat if you had it on all 13 items. On average for non min/max values of a stat, you'd end up coming out even. If you stacked all max values of a stat in all 13 slots you'd average 3.25 points below what you would expect from adding the numbers. If you're stacking Str/Dex/Int at endgame you'll be hitting in the 1000-2000 range for your primary stats, so you're talking less than half a percent difference there.
  • #35
    I did not know they have changed from integer randoms to floats. Guess that makes it more uncertain if they are rounded in some way before getting stored.
    But if a showed 3 can be from 2,50 to 3,49 finding 2 items where x+y adds up to x+y-1 or x+y+1 on character sheet instead of the x+y it should show. Finding 1 combination like that would prove they aren't stored as integers. Someone better at statistics then me can probably calculate how many items you need to test to make it fairly certain it's one way or the other.

    You are of course correct that for most of us it will even out anyway and that at higher levels it will hard (if not impossible) to notice the difference in gameplay.
  • #36
    Oooow man, this would be the moment to be bumbed out because you suck at math...
    Stay in school kids and dont do drugs!
  • #37
    from patch 13 notes:

    The following affixes now have a chance to appear twice when crafting items:
    • Min damage
    • Max damage
    • All Elemental damage types

    It looks like elemental dmg can only be on weapons and offhands and min/max dmg on weapons, rings and amulets. The only of them craftable are weapons and offhands. Now since my favorite class in every game is wizzard I go for wand with + ele dmg + ele dmg + min dmg + min dmg + max dmg + max dmg. At least before someone does some elegant math to prove me wrong

    Those pants with double slow were 99,9% bug but now we know that double stats are not shown separately but together

    English is not my language.
  • #38
    Before going into the stats of it, certain things must be brought into consideration. Class specific items will not have certain affixes assigned to them, this will dramatically increase the crafting chance of a very good item (wands for example), while other universal pieces such as boots, gloves, shoulders, etc will have many more possibilities (i think).
  • #39
    Quote from Sw1tch

    Before going into the stats of it, certain things must be brought into consideration. Class specific items will not have certain affixes assigned to them, this will dramatically increase the crafting chance of a very good item (wands for example), while other universal pieces such as boots, gloves, shoulders, etc will have many more possibilities (i think).


    Its actually the opposite. Class-specific items can generally have any affix that a normal item for that slot could have plus a couple extras class-specific resource affixes.
  • #40
    Quote from chippydip

    Quote from Sw1tch

    Before going into the stats of it, certain things must be brought into consideration. Class specific items will not have certain affixes assigned to them, this will dramatically increase the crafting chance of a very good item (wands for example), while other universal pieces such as boots, gloves, shoulders, etc will have many more possibilities (i think).


    Its actually the opposite. Class-specific items can generally have any affix that a normal item for that slot could have plus a couple extras class-specific resource affixes.


    If that is the case, it will probably just balance out in the end >
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