The Angels wanted to destroy sanctuary because humans contained the taint of demons in them. That and obviously to prevent hell from using it as an outpost.
Hell wanted to use the humans against the heavans.
In all honesty, remove the threat of the humans being used by the demons and I don't think the heavens would really give a hoot about sanctuary.
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]"Fool! You have just ensured the doom of this world. You cannot even begin to imagine what you've set in motion this day. Go to the Temple of Light, in the eastern ciry of Kurast. There you will find the gate to Hell opened before you. You must find the courage to step through that gate Marius. Take the stone you hold to the Hellforge, where it will be destroyed. Now run! Take the stone and run!"
"Then it is possible that they will repeat the action with the worldstone?"
Again, they cannot repeat a action they never did. The WS creation have nothing to do with the Council.
"There we have something noone mentioned before, that Trag'Oul stated it. But that could mean that if no side wins, Sanctuary can survive, because Heaven and Hell can't waste too much time on Sanctuary. I suppose that the only reason that it was invaded by demons in D1 and D2 was because The Prime Evils were there. Now, without the Worldstone, it would take much less effort to invade it, and it is a higher priority too."
Yes much less effort. And that means that now the possibility of have Heavens as our enemies is greater because Sanctuary can be now be transformed in Hell's outpost and theres a insane military high influential angel wanting us all dead.
And thats wht the thread is about, the possibility of have Heavens as a enemy.
"But think of the world their want to create. Order, a world without any problems, the perfect world for angels. Chaos, a world of unending torment, slavery and war. Chaos and war is very much connected. The demons likes to kill, that makes them a bit more savage than angels, but both sides are solders. But if Heaven could choose, would Heaven want a world with war? I'm sure Hell would, war is pretty chaotic. But with war, a world wouldn't be in order. And ofc they are not victims, I have never said that. They want to kill every demon just as much as demons wants to kill every angel. Angels are however not into war if it isn't neccessary, which it is in this case. You might say that it is my opinion that they doesn't want war if it isn't neccessary, but that is what I believe. But unfortunately, alot of things are neccessary in the world of angels, just to maintain order."
Order is far from a world without problens. And order is connected to war just like chaos is. Because to maintain a total perfect order violent actions is needed because people will always disagree about something (even both been right) and this conflicts leads to confusion, so to prevent that confusion the perfect order must eliminate one of the opnions with brute force. Thats execly what the Council do with "rebel" angels like Tyriel and Inarius, and both had initially a good intent. Actually war is connect to any absolute ideal, no matter what the ideal is.
However I agree heaven is much less savage then Hell, for sure. However I still see Heaven as a potential enemy, a lesser enemy, but a enemy.
"Now you are getting me wrong. I know that it was Inarius and Lilith that created the worldstone. And that does indeed prove that Heaven and Hell are a threat for them. They are traitors lol. And I know that Inaruis made it drain the power of the Nephalem so Lilith couldn't use their powers to build a personal super army. And I'd say that Heavens means justify their ends, just as Hells means justify their ends, from their point of view. You have to see everything from their point of view. Ofc it unevitably means that the humans can't remain as we are, because it would screw up the order, but it would suit Hell great, if they manage to enslave us. But the thing is, if Inarius and Lilith could createe a worldstone, why wouldn't the other archangels/demons be able to do the same thing? Or are they "tired" of having us there? It isn't exacly making their war any different to have a neutral Sanctuary there."
I get you wrong ? I just though you had said that the Council have created the Ws once, why they wouldn't do that another time...O.o
And actually we don't know what it takes to creat a world stone. It's certain that Inarius and Lilith are creatures of significant high power. Inarius was problably the most powerfull angel, but i'm not certain about Lilith. We just don't know if creat a second worldstone is possible.
"This is absolutely correct. But in your example we had only 2 parts, which creates the perfect balance. But in Diablo we have 3 parts, and the humans would probably choose a side that has reasons to fight that they support more than the others. But if both the police and the terrorist turns towards you and say that they don't want you in their world, they want it alone, then we have a problem. Unfortunately this is the case of Sanctuary. A place like Sanctuary can't exist in any of their worlds. But that doesn't stop us from liking Heaven more than Hell, if you pretend that the "you will die anyway" thing doesn't exist. This pretty much proves that Heaven is to us good, and Hell is evil, from our ethical point of view. But we have only seen the ways of demons, we have indeed never seen how angels are, so it is possible that we could like Hell more than Heaven if some events had been different."
The third part, the humans, will problably be divided between those two sides, like the Temple and the Cathedral. Some will seek Heavens for salvation, other will seek hell for power, but both sides don't knows what the fuck they are doing. Only a very small group of humans will have the insight to see that both sides don't want to help then, just use then as means to take a advantage against the other side. Of course, the crowds will problably more likely to follow Heaven, but it doesn't mean they are doing the right thing or something close to "good".
"Either way, why did Blizzard name them Heaven and Hell if both don't care about us? Could they not have named them something else to avoid all of this confusion about good and evil? Since people who have read the books say that Heaven is just as prone as Hell to destroy us, then why are they named Heaven? I am sure they knew that people would associate the names to good and evil due to popular culture, they can't not have thought about this."
I don't really know for sure. Before the Sin War, Heaven was just forbidden to interfer in Sanctuary as demons tryed to conquer it. However, now we know what Heaven is in the Diablo's universe and why Tyrael is a stray angel (i'm talking in our chronology). It happens problably because the Sin War are deeply inspired in the Odyssey and in the Illiad, and in the greek tradition gods exist both to help us and to screw us at the same time war is result our irrational passions.
"That has nothing to do with anything... To make this so supersimplified I can: Can any angel create a worldstone? If the answer is yes, then we have a possibility. You know what I meant..."
We simpl?y don't know. Problably not because it was created by the Top Demon and the Top Angel at the same time.
Still, even if the Council and the angels can creat something like a WS, we have no clue if they want to do that. Actually, the only clue we have is that they don't to do that, they simply want to destroy all humans.
"War and violence is 2 different things. Atleast I don't count every act of violence to be war. If they chase down and punish 2 angels, that wouldn't make a war. It would have to be alot of more angels for them to have a civil war. And think about it. Both Tyrael and Inarius commited their "crimes" because of a war."
The problem is that theres allways more people to be chased. In the end it's something even worse then a war, it's just a slaugther. And Tyrael and Inarius made "crimes" against the war and were punished. This cleary shows the military nature of Heavens in Diablo.
"When I say "they create a worldstone" I mean it like "angels create a worldstone", not the Council as a group. They are obviously no different from other angels. But a second worldstone might be a possibility. But isn't there a possibility that the worldstone is directly connected with the world. They created the world rogether with the worldstone, and alot of things have changed since it was destroyed. Perhaps its energies are fading and Sanctuary is slowly beeing destroyed? And if you want to go even more crazy; Could it be the powers of Inarius and Lilith inside of all humans that are holding Sanctuary together?"
You said Heavens had created the WD. Inarius created it when his no longer follows heaven's rules. Also he created it together with Lilith, each means the WS may need a demonic power to be created. And again it doesn't matter that much if they can or not creat a WS. We have no lore cannon that shows us any intention of the Council to do such thing.
"It is not the fact that the humans are following what is truly good, there is nothing that truly can be good. But the humans follow what they think is the good side, based upon our knowledge. And that would be the most reasonable thing to do. It is like having 2 equally evil murderers. We could prefer either one of them, but one of the murderers (Heaven, as Tyrael) helped us, while the other murderer (Hell, as The Prime Evils) kept harming us. They are deep down equally bad, but which side would the humans choose? They would choose what seem right to them, that is the best that they can do. I'm not saying that heaven does something good, but Tyraels actions and the actions of The Prime Evils have already made most humans decide on Heaven to be the side they would support. And the way the humans had lived also contributed to them choosing the side that appears to act more like them, and that seem to have ethics that fits better with the humans. So to summarise it: Heaven is to the humans, good. If they are more like the humans than demons, that is up to Blizzard to tell us. But atm the acts that the humans have seen pictures Heaven as good, and Hell as bad."
Try to put all humam opnion in the same box is difficult. There alot of humans that follow hell, many do not believe in nether, some follow the what they think are the Heavens, etc... As I said people would be splitted apart and your character may follow or the neutral path or the path of heavens (of course you will not follow hell). The best they can do is put your character neutral because the Sin War shows us a disturbing picture of what Heaven really is and it would suck very much to follow the lead of something you know are not what they say they are.
About the thread: "Fightning both hell and heaven".
Yes thats is totaly possible to happen because both are a potential threat against your character's world.
Just so you know, I have changed my mind alot since my first post. I'm not ignoring anyone. At first I based most of the things I wrote on my thoughts, now I base them on the information I have read in a few wikis. I base my thoughts upon fact, and none of the latest things i said states that Heaven is good. Good is a personal term, you can never tell someone else what is good. I believe that Heaven is as good as they think they are, there is no specific way of acting that can be described as goodness. I think you have skipped a few of my posts, or you didn't understand what I mean. From a humans point of view, the things that Heaven does is mostly evil, but the things that Hell does is all evil, this is because of the events and actions of both sides. It is unevitable that the humans, during their evolution, had their ethic and moral altered, either to the side that is closest to Heaven, or to the side that is closer to Hell. Right now, the humans in Sanctuary believes that Heaven is alot better than Hell, and why not? Demons had been killing them... If it would be angels that killed humans, wouldn't they change their minds about them? So up to now, Heaven is the good side, if you compare their actions to our ethics. A angel have been saving our asses, that is something a demon would never do. Angels are capable of love, they find love to be good, and they can sacrifice themselves. Demons can't feel love, they can feel desire and lust, but not love in the way that angels and humans can. The humans aren't 50% angel and 50% demon, perhaps their body is, but our thoughts are not 50/50, so either Heaven or Hell is for the humans good. I find this very clear at this moment. The spiritual things that connects humans with angels are greater than the ones that connects humans with demons. But neither of the sides cares about them, but there are some angels that actually would like humans to live on, or perhaps only Tyrael. I highly doubt that there is any demon that would want any other creature to be alive, because they don't have some things that angels has, for example love, justice, fairness and sorrow. These are some things that humans share with angels. But humans also have some characteristics that demons has.
You will probably see this as a confirmation on me beeing stubborn, that is fine. But do not for one second think that I find angels to be good, just better for Sanctuary than Hell, during the war that is. With Heaven we have a chance to survive, we don't with Hell. That makes Heaven better than Hell in that way. I will post here again after I have read the books, we will see if I have changed my mind then.
Probably. Both humans, angels and demons share the will to survive, that is why we will fight. And with the worldstone out of the picture, our chances of survival will increase with time, but so will our chances of beeing destroyed.
yay i can go with that =3
what he said =3
everything seems to fit perfectly to me lol
you can have your cookie "gives emil a cookie" =3
o xerj read the post right above again
i really dont think you understand it
o and everyone is entitled to their opinion no need to get mad at ppl for stating theirs
Well all i have to say is that i hope that we do fight angels.
I mean whatever some people on this forum say about haeven being good is wrong.
In diablo they are both bad.
Demons just want to have the whole world for themselfs. Kinda like humans in our time killing forests and animals to extend their territories and build new towns, factories etc.
And than theres the angels who see themselfs as the supreme beings therefore everything else (humans,demons) are suposed to obey them and do what they say.
While demons want to kill both humans and angels, the "good" angels want to ensalve both humans and demons witch makes them both bad.
So yea angels are evil and as bad as demons and i hope we get to kick theire asses in d3.
Just so you know, I have changed my mind alot since my first post. I'm not ignoring anyone. At first I based most of the things I wrote on my thoughts, now I base them on the information I have read in a few wikis. I base my thoughts upon fact, and none of the latest things i said states that Heaven is good. Good is a personal term, you can never tell someone else what is good. I believe that Heaven is as good as they think they are, there is no specific way of acting that can be described as goodness. I think you have skipped a few of my posts, or you didn't understand what I mean. From a humans point of view, the things that Heaven does is mostly evil, but the things that Hell does is all evil, this is because of the events and actions of both sides. It is unevitable that the humans, during their evolution, had their ethic and moral altered, either to the side that is closest to Heaven, or to the side that is closer to Hell. Right now, the humans in Sanctuary believes that Heaven is alot better than Hell, and why not? Demons had been killing them... If it would be angels that killed humans, wouldn't they change their minds about them? So up to now, Heaven is the good side, if you compare their actions to our ethics. A angel have been saving our asses, that is something a demon would never do. Angels are capable of love, they find love to be good, and they can sacrifice themselves. Demons can't feel love, they can feel desire and lust, but not love in the way that angels and humans can. The humans aren't 50% angel and 50% demon, perhaps their body is, but our thoughts are not 50/50, so either Heaven or Hell is for the humans good. I find this very clear at this moment. The spiritual things that connects humans with angels are greater than the ones that connects humans with demons. But neither of the sides cares about them, but there are some angels that actually would like humans to live on, or perhaps only Tyrael. I highly doubt that there is any demon that would want any other creature to be alive, because they don't have some things that angels has, for example love, justice, fairness and sorrow. These are some things that humans share with angels. But humans also have some characteristics that demons has.
You will probably see this as a confirmation on me beeing stubborn, that is fine. But do not for one second think that I find angels to be good, just better for Sanctuary than Hell, during the war that is. With Heaven we have a chance to survive, we don't with Hell. That makes Heaven better than Hell in that way. I will post here again after I have read the books, we will see if I have changed my mind then.
Probably. Both humans, angels and demons share the will to survive, that is why we will fight. And with the worldstone out of the picture, our chances of survival will increase with time, but so will our chances of beeing destroyed.
Angels are capable of love, they find love to be good, and they can sacrifice themselves. - That is only your assumption, based on nothing written.
Demons can't feel love, they can feel desire and lust, but not love in the way that angels and humans can. - Actually... Lilith was in love with Inarius.
The spiritual things that connects humans with angels are greater than the ones that connects humans with demons. - What? Since when? Where is this written?
I highly doubt that there is any demon that would want any other creature to be alive, because they don't have some things that angels has, for example love, justice, fairness and sorrow. - I didn't see much justice, fairness and sorrow coming from the angels in the diablo universe. They were just as bad as the demons in those terms. Tyrael (perhaps) excluded.
With Heaven we have a chance to survive, we don't with Hell. - Actually that's the other way around. With hell we have a chance to survive (true, as a part of their army but still survive). The angels want to kill humanity.
And yes, I still think you're just stubborn for the hell of it.
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~ All of us live in a cage, few of us see it. (S.F.) ~
Yes, it is my beliefs. And those are based on the wiki information. What else can I base a discussion on if I haven't read the books? And for the last time, I will read the books...
And wikis are mostly fact, most wikis doesn't allow opinions, only fact. So when I read them, I assume that the writer is using pure facts.
And instead of just turning down my oponions, give reasons. Just saying: You are wrong, read the books" is something I almost allways ignore.
I base this again on a wiki statement. Quoting:
"He felt that abominations cannot feel sorrow and therefore cannot sacrifice themselves."
It is a page about Tyrael, and the quote is about Tyrael seeing that humans are not abominations like the demons. Based on that quote, I suppose that the angels see sorrow as something that abominations, or demons, can't have. And why would that be a reason if the angels didn't have the capability to feel sorrow.
Personally, I think that Inarius would sacrifice himself, atleast initially. And I'll add to that by quoting a wiki:
"Lilith is a manipulator and seductress. Even very attractive in her demonic form her charms earned her the affection of powerful beings such as Inarius and the Sin War trilogy's protagonist Uldyssian, using them as pawns to further her own goals."
A manipulator and seductress.
I based it on that humans like order better than chaos. This does of course not apply to all humans, the humans are not pure order or chaos like the angels and demons. But I will say it again: The evolution, environment, events and other things have made humans (now i'm referring to our world) prefer light over darkness and structure over chaos. The things that makes them similar to demons is for example that humans like to become really aggressive. But over time, because of the memory loss and other things, humans have developed new characteristics that neither angels nor demons have.
But I think it is fine to compare the Sanctuarians to us, mainly because Blizzard obviously based their behaviour on humans on Earth. They are just given a different history, and other powers.
Killing is done by angels too, so I'll ignore that. Not sure about raping and drug abuse, I think it is something that is created by humans and not inherited. Selfishness is a characteristic of both angels and demons, that is really obvious. Betrayal and scams are two different things. Betrayal is also a act of selfishness. Unless you love someone alot, you put your own life before theirs, unless the other lives are alot more valuable than yours. (ALOT)
I will take the same example again. When humans were first created, it is possible that they are 50% demon and 50% angel, but it could also be 30%/70%. Because of the mix, humans are capable of allying with both sides fairly easily. But obviously humans doesn't value the things of angels and demons equally. Humans prefer light over dark, it is more healthy for us, so that is a thing from the angels. The opinions of humans has probably changed over the time since their memories were erased, but I believe that I can see a clear lean towards the general opinion of angels rather than demons. But humans also like alot of the things that are taken from demons, and a little from some rare angels. Humans does for example like freedom, and dislike heavy discipline. But most humans does at the same time know that discipline is important. But those were guesses, but I think that Blizzard based the humans in Sanctuary on the humans on Earth, so we should be pretty similar.
Why does the opinions of the humans have to be 50% angel and 50% demon? That would be very wierd to me.
I don't know any of this. But I am indeed basing my own thoughts and opinions on wikis. I am going to read the f**king books.
But based on my experience of books, they rarely give out fact. And if the books gives out fact, the source is usually a person in the book that doesn't necessarily have to be correct. This is a topic that interests me, so I am gonig to reply. This wouldn't be a discussion if these things are stated as facts, and if they are, could someone please quote the lines in the books that proves me wrong, otherwise I have complete freedom to say my opinion. Atleast for as long as I'm not flaming anyone.
Please accept me for not beeing able to buy the books straight away, it is going to take some time. If you disagree completely, just ignore my posts, because I will buy the books and post my (possible) change of mind after I have read through The Sin War trilology.
It is a page about Tyrael, and the quote is about Tyrael seeing that humans are not abominations like the demons. Based on that quote, I suppose that the angels see sorrow as something that abominations, or demons, can't have. And why would that be a reason if the angels didn't have the capability to feel sorrow. - Find the wiki page that sage Tyrael is an EXCEPTION amongst angels.
Personally, I think that Inarius would sacrifice himself, atleast initially. And I'll add to that by quoting a wiki: - Again... basing your points on things you "believe" in... makes no point. Unless ofcourse you're the creator of the diablo universe. Which... you are not.
I based it on that humans like order better than chaos - another blunt statement. I'd say most humans between the ages 13-18 would prefer chaos. Prove me wrong.
The things that makes them similar to demons is for example that humans like to become really aggressive - where do you get this from? Dude? As if the angels are peace keepers or something.
Humans prefer light over dark, it is more healthy for us, so that is a thing from the angels. - I'm sorry to say so but humans prefer light over dark only cause they can't see in the dark. Otherwise you're making very interesting assumptions on a very advanced level of the human psychic. You a shrink?
I don't know any of this. But I am indeed basing my own thoughts and opinions on wikis. I am going to read the f**king books. - I'll bet my cat you'll then say that even in the books the angels are still better, despite the fact they want to destroy everyone who is not an angel.
But based on my experience of books, they rarely give out fact - Aha! I was right! The books themselves are not enough to convince you.
could someone please quote the lines in the books that proves me wrong, otherwise I have complete freedom to say my opinion - sure, you have a complete freedom to say your opinion. Just as you have a complete freedom to argue with everyone without knowing anything beforehand. As you do. Doesn't make you right though... Just makes you look like someone argueing a point he has no knowledge about. And no, wikis a'nt enough.
If you disagree completely, just ignore my posts, because I will buy the books and post my (possible) change of mind - I bet even if you'll change your mind you'll find excuses not to just so that your initial view will be right.
P.S.
You don't have to buy the books, some of them are freely available as E-Books.
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~ All of us live in a cage, few of us see it. (S.F.) ~
Still a angel. If there is one, then there can be many.
Then show the fact in the book that says that it is a 0% chance that Inarius wouldn't sacrifice themselves. If you don't have that, then you must go with your gut, and your own opinions.
I can't. But you can't prove me wrong either.
No... but would you say that a angel has more or less of a tendency to use violence when they get pissed? And you don't have to assume that I get thinks from somewhere. I couldn't find anything about the behaviour of angels in general that is 100% sure, so I take that as a opportunity for opinions.
Well, not beeing able to see in the dark is one thing. But there are alot of other things too. I'm not going to talk about biology now.
You are not getting it. I'm not saying that angels are better. And I am well aware of that they want to make angels the only thing in the universe. And what do you mean by "in the books"?
Of course not. Why would I?
Of course my opinions isb't the same thing as fact, they are just theories, I am open for change if I get a good enough reason. I know that wikis are not enough, but why should that stop me from having opinions? Having teories without fact is a good thing, as long as you don't take your theories as 100% possible. But why are you saying that I have no knowledge about it? I have fractions, but not the full picture.
And you have to remember that I have changed my mind enourmously if you take a look at my first posts.
Now you are just beeing an ass.
I just figured that out. Downloaded them a few minutes ago
I'm done discussing this with you - enjoy. I honestly doubt you're able to listen to anyone rather than yourself.
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~ All of us live in a cage, few of us see it. (S.F.) ~
@emilemil1: i guess you understod pretty what i tryed to say in our discussion back there, based at how your opnion changed along the discussion. The only big difference in my and Xerj opnion and yours is the final plot that Heaven will have in the next game.
Obviously you feel that kill angels is a very weird and hope that someway, somehow, Heaven helps us and we leave in peace with then in the end. Actually I agree with you, but for totaly different reasons.
It's pretty sure that the demons is our prime enemies in the story, however why is that? It's because Hell are overcoming Heaven, breaking the balance, thats why we may allie with heaven to restore the balance. However, if the oposite happened, heaven totally overcoming hell, i'm pretty sure that we gotta fight heaven, maybe alling ourselfs with some demons, maybe not.
The main point of the topic is: Can Heaven be our enemy? My answer is and always will be yes. Blizz have suddenly released a huge amount of lore canon to us, and this lore canon put Heaven as a potential threat, just like Hell. I see no reason of why introduce the fanatical Archangel Imperius that want to crush sanctuary if he ended up not been our enemy. I don't see why promote the Necromancers as the only humans that knows the thruth about Heaven and Hell if they are wrong, if Heaven must not be fought if they break the balance. We will fight Heaven? Only Blizz knows. But I think thats it's very likely in the original game or in a EP.
It turned out to be a pretty long post. But this is purely opinions, almost no fact. So please don't tell me to refer to books now
Hehehehe... relax
We all have our own personal speculations about D3's plot. Imo in the classic D3 our main enemy will be Azmodan and Belial. Maybe the last act is in hell at the middle of the civil war and we find two different kinds of demon army, so we gotta fight both to finish the game.
After that, Hell will suffer a terrible loss because all the seven Great Evils are missing and then the expancion will be our fight against Imperius and his angels trying to finish Sanctuary as hell is no longer a problem because of the lack of leadership.
Then we will have a second expancion that for some reason, the Prime Evils came back, and epically we gotta defeat our old and greatest enemies.
This is 100% speculation lol But it's how i feel
And about that, what would really happen to The Prime Evils now when they have no containers or bodies on earth? Can they return to Hell even if they are exiled? They can't just enter a body right? That would be so unfair Wouldn't they need someone to summon them? Perhaps a human... perhaps someone that can be fooled or corrupted, like Marius... someone with knowledge... perhaps Leah?
My bet is that the prime evils are caught in the Abyss and will return when they regain strength.
All of you saying that the angels are no different from the demons are delusional, and are too focused on wanting them to be future ememies to fight against in the next chapter.
There is an obivous difference between the intent of the angels and those of demons. The angels aim to bring order while the demons aim to bring forth chaos. You can argue the means all you want but the ends define their true nature. The angels fight to destroy anything that threatens them, which would in turn threaten the existence of order and peace. So the fighting they do is actually "defensive offense".
The angels see Sanctuary as a threat because of the potential power the people have coupled with the selfish interest that some may possess. People who end up like the Summoner, is what they're worried about.
The reason Imperius is so passionate with his intent to destroy Sanctuary, I believe, is because he prepresents the offensive nature of heaven, while Tyrael represents the defensive side.
Bottom line though....angels and demons have totally different intentions, so stop trying to put them in the same boat just to make them all around enemies of us (The Heroes).
Emilemil1, you're the only one in here who has this understanding....don't let any of these others push you into thinking the way they do.
All of you saying that the angels are no different from the demons are delusional, and are too focused on wanting them to be future ememies to fight against in the next chapter.
There is an obivous difference between the intent of the angels and those of demons. The angels aim to bring order while the demons aim to bring forth chaos. You can argue the means all you want but the ends define their true nature. The angels fight to destroy anything that threatens them, which would in turn threaten the existence of order and peace. So the fighting they do is actually "defensive offense".
The angels see Sanctuary as a threat because of the potential power the people have coupled with the selfish interest that some may possess. People who end up like the Summoner, is what they're worried about.
The reason Imperius is so passionate with his intent to destroy Sanctuary, I believe, is because he prepresents the offensive nature of heaven, while Tyrael represents the defensive side.
Bottom line though....angels and demons have totally different intentions, so stop trying to put them in the same boat just to make them all around enemies of us (The Heroes).
Emilemil1, you're the only one in here who has this understanding....don't let any of these others push you into thinking the way they do.
I only want to know one thing before I comment any further - are you basing your assumptions on your knowledge of the books you've read or are you just throwing this out into the air?
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~ All of us live in a cage, few of us see it. (S.F.) ~
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Hell wanted to use the humans against the heavans.
In all honesty, remove the threat of the humans being used by the demons and I don't think the heavens would really give a hoot about sanctuary.
Again, they cannot repeat a action they never did. The WS creation have nothing to do with the Council.
"There we have something noone mentioned before, that Trag'Oul stated it. But that could mean that if no side wins, Sanctuary can survive, because Heaven and Hell can't waste too much time on Sanctuary. I suppose that the only reason that it was invaded by demons in D1 and D2 was because The Prime Evils were there. Now, without the Worldstone, it would take much less effort to invade it, and it is a higher priority too."
Yes much less effort. And that means that now the possibility of have Heavens as our enemies is greater because Sanctuary can be now be transformed in Hell's outpost and theres a insane military high influential angel wanting us all dead.
And thats wht the thread is about, the possibility of have Heavens as a enemy.
"But think of the world their want to create. Order, a world without any problems, the perfect world for angels. Chaos, a world of unending torment, slavery and war. Chaos and war is very much connected. The demons likes to kill, that makes them a bit more savage than angels, but both sides are solders. But if Heaven could choose, would Heaven want a world with war? I'm sure Hell would, war is pretty chaotic. But with war, a world wouldn't be in order. And ofc they are not victims, I have never said that. They want to kill every demon just as much as demons wants to kill every angel. Angels are however not into war if it isn't neccessary, which it is in this case. You might say that it is my opinion that they doesn't want war if it isn't neccessary, but that is what I believe. But unfortunately, alot of things are neccessary in the world of angels, just to maintain order."
Order is far from a world without problens. And order is connected to war just like chaos is. Because to maintain a total perfect order violent actions is needed because people will always disagree about something (even both been right) and this conflicts leads to confusion, so to prevent that confusion the perfect order must eliminate one of the opnions with brute force. Thats execly what the Council do with "rebel" angels like Tyriel and Inarius, and both had initially a good intent. Actually war is connect to any absolute ideal, no matter what the ideal is.
However I agree heaven is much less savage then Hell, for sure. However I still see Heaven as a potential enemy, a lesser enemy, but a enemy.
"Now you are getting me wrong. I know that it was Inarius and Lilith that created the worldstone. And that does indeed prove that Heaven and Hell are a threat for them. They are traitors lol. And I know that Inaruis made it drain the power of the Nephalem so Lilith couldn't use their powers to build a personal super army. And I'd say that Heavens means justify their ends, just as Hells means justify their ends, from their point of view. You have to see everything from their point of view. Ofc it unevitably means that the humans can't remain as we are, because it would screw up the order, but it would suit Hell great, if they manage to enslave us. But the thing is, if Inarius and Lilith could createe a worldstone, why wouldn't the other archangels/demons be able to do the same thing? Or are they "tired" of having us there? It isn't exacly making their war any different to have a neutral Sanctuary there."
I get you wrong ? I just though you had said that the Council have created the Ws once, why they wouldn't do that another time...O.o
And actually we don't know what it takes to creat a world stone. It's certain that Inarius and Lilith are creatures of significant high power. Inarius was problably the most powerfull angel, but i'm not certain about Lilith. We just don't know if creat a second worldstone is possible.
"This is absolutely correct. But in your example we had only 2 parts, which creates the perfect balance. But in Diablo we have 3 parts, and the humans would probably choose a side that has reasons to fight that they support more than the others. But if both the police and the terrorist turns towards you and say that they don't want you in their world, they want it alone, then we have a problem. Unfortunately this is the case of Sanctuary. A place like Sanctuary can't exist in any of their worlds. But that doesn't stop us from liking Heaven more than Hell, if you pretend that the "you will die anyway" thing doesn't exist. This pretty much proves that Heaven is to us good, and Hell is evil, from our ethical point of view. But we have only seen the ways of demons, we have indeed never seen how angels are, so it is possible that we could like Hell more than Heaven if some events had been different."
The third part, the humans, will problably be divided between those two sides, like the Temple and the Cathedral. Some will seek Heavens for salvation, other will seek hell for power, but both sides don't knows what the fuck they are doing. Only a very small group of humans will have the insight to see that both sides don't want to help then, just use then as means to take a advantage against the other side. Of course, the crowds will problably more likely to follow Heaven, but it doesn't mean they are doing the right thing or something close to "good".
"Either way, why did Blizzard name them Heaven and Hell if both don't care about us? Could they not have named them something else to avoid all of this confusion about good and evil? Since people who have read the books say that Heaven is just as prone as Hell to destroy us, then why are they named Heaven? I am sure they knew that people would associate the names to good and evil due to popular culture, they can't not have thought about this."
I don't really know for sure. Before the Sin War, Heaven was just forbidden to interfer in Sanctuary as demons tryed to conquer it. However, now we know what Heaven is in the Diablo's universe and why Tyrael is a stray angel (i'm talking in our chronology). It happens problably because the Sin War are deeply inspired in the Odyssey and in the Illiad, and in the greek tradition gods exist both to help us and to screw us at the same time war is result our irrational passions.
We simpl?y don't know. Problably not because it was created by the Top Demon and the Top Angel at the same time.
Still, even if the Council and the angels can creat something like a WS, we have no clue if they want to do that. Actually, the only clue we have is that they don't to do that, they simply want to destroy all humans.
"War and violence is 2 different things. Atleast I don't count every act of violence to be war. If they chase down and punish 2 angels, that wouldn't make a war. It would have to be alot of more angels for them to have a civil war. And think about it. Both Tyrael and Inarius commited their "crimes" because of a war."
The problem is that theres allways more people to be chased. In the end it's something even worse then a war, it's just a slaugther. And Tyrael and Inarius made "crimes" against the war and were punished. This cleary shows the military nature of Heavens in Diablo.
"When I say "they create a worldstone" I mean it like "angels create a worldstone", not the Council as a group. They are obviously no different from other angels. But a second worldstone might be a possibility. But isn't there a possibility that the worldstone is directly connected with the world. They created the world rogether with the worldstone, and alot of things have changed since it was destroyed. Perhaps its energies are fading and Sanctuary is slowly beeing destroyed? And if you want to go even more crazy; Could it be the powers of Inarius and Lilith inside of all humans that are holding Sanctuary together?"
You said Heavens had created the WD. Inarius created it when his no longer follows heaven's rules. Also he created it together with Lilith, each means the WS may need a demonic power to be created. And again it doesn't matter that much if they can or not creat a WS. We have no lore cannon that shows us any intention of the Council to do such thing.
"It is not the fact that the humans are following what is truly good, there is nothing that truly can be good. But the humans follow what they think is the good side, based upon our knowledge. And that would be the most reasonable thing to do. It is like having 2 equally evil murderers. We could prefer either one of them, but one of the murderers (Heaven, as Tyrael) helped us, while the other murderer (Hell, as The Prime Evils) kept harming us. They are deep down equally bad, but which side would the humans choose? They would choose what seem right to them, that is the best that they can do. I'm not saying that heaven does something good, but Tyraels actions and the actions of The Prime Evils have already made most humans decide on Heaven to be the side they would support. And the way the humans had lived also contributed to them choosing the side that appears to act more like them, and that seem to have ethics that fits better with the humans. So to summarise it: Heaven is to the humans, good. If they are more like the humans than demons, that is up to Blizzard to tell us. But atm the acts that the humans have seen pictures Heaven as good, and Hell as bad."
Try to put all humam opnion in the same box is difficult. There alot of humans that follow hell, many do not believe in nether, some follow the what they think are the Heavens, etc... As I said people would be splitted apart and your character may follow or the neutral path or the path of heavens (of course you will not follow hell). The best they can do is put your character neutral because the Sin War shows us a disturbing picture of what Heaven really is and it would suck very much to follow the lead of something you know are not what they say they are.
About the thread: "Fightning both hell and heaven".
Yes thats is totaly possible to happen because both are a potential threat against your character's world.
And I started it
I give... myself... a cookie!
They are the best example of order and goodness and just the fact they were planning a genocide doesn't mean they're bad. Nope. They're good. Yep.
I mean... dude... I get it that you're stubborn and all, but... like I said before. Read the god damn books.
Obviously that half the forums trying to tell you heaven isn't as good as you think they are doesn't really convince you.
Maybe the guys who wrote the lore for diablo will.
Or... you'll just ignore them too, like I think you will, and continue to stick to what you think it is.
yay i can go with that =3
what he said =3
everything seems to fit perfectly to me lol
you can have your cookie "gives emil a cookie" =3
o xerj read the post right above again
i really dont think you understand it
o and everyone is entitled to their opinion no need to get mad at ppl for stating theirs
it is a forums thats the point lol
Be my Buddy =^.^=
and think of the LOOT!? It would have to be gnaaaarly!
I mean whatever some people on this forum say about haeven being good is wrong.
In diablo they are both bad.
Demons just want to have the whole world for themselfs. Kinda like humans in our time killing forests and animals to extend their territories and build new towns, factories etc.
And than theres the angels who see themselfs as the supreme beings therefore everything else (humans,demons) are suposed to obey them and do what they say.
While demons want to kill both humans and angels, the "good" angels want to ensalve both humans and demons witch makes them both bad.
So yea angels are evil and as bad as demons and i hope we get to kick theire asses in d3.
Angels are capable of love, they find love to be good, and they can sacrifice themselves. - That is only your assumption, based on nothing written.
Demons can't feel love, they can feel desire and lust, but not love in the way that angels and humans can. - Actually... Lilith was in love with Inarius.
The spiritual things that connects humans with angels are greater than the ones that connects humans with demons. - What? Since when? Where is this written?
I highly doubt that there is any demon that would want any other creature to be alive, because they don't have some things that angels has, for example love, justice, fairness and sorrow. - I didn't see much justice, fairness and sorrow coming from the angels in the diablo universe. They were just as bad as the demons in those terms. Tyrael (perhaps) excluded.
With Heaven we have a chance to survive, we don't with Hell. - Actually that's the other way around. With hell we have a chance to survive (true, as a part of their army but still survive). The angels want to kill humanity.
And yes, I still think you're just stubborn for the hell of it.
It is a page about Tyrael, and the quote is about Tyrael seeing that humans are not abominations like the demons. Based on that quote, I suppose that the angels see sorrow as something that abominations, or demons, can't have. And why would that be a reason if the angels didn't have the capability to feel sorrow. - Find the wiki page that sage Tyrael is an EXCEPTION amongst angels.
Personally, I think that Inarius would sacrifice himself, atleast initially. And I'll add to that by quoting a wiki: - Again... basing your points on things you "believe" in... makes no point. Unless ofcourse you're the creator of the diablo universe. Which... you are not.
I based it on that humans like order better than chaos - another blunt statement. I'd say most humans between the ages 13-18 would prefer chaos. Prove me wrong.
The things that makes them similar to demons is for example that humans like to become really aggressive - where do you get this from? Dude? As if the angels are peace keepers or something.
Humans prefer light over dark, it is more healthy for us, so that is a thing from the angels. - I'm sorry to say so but humans prefer light over dark only cause they can't see in the dark. Otherwise you're making very interesting assumptions on a very advanced level of the human psychic. You a shrink?
I don't know any of this. But I am indeed basing my own thoughts and opinions on wikis. I am going to read the f**king books. - I'll bet my cat you'll then say that even in the books the angels are still better, despite the fact they want to destroy everyone who is not an angel.
But based on my experience of books, they rarely give out fact - Aha! I was right! The books themselves are not enough to convince you.
could someone please quote the lines in the books that proves me wrong, otherwise I have complete freedom to say my opinion - sure, you have a complete freedom to say your opinion. Just as you have a complete freedom to argue with everyone without knowing anything beforehand. As you do. Doesn't make you right though... Just makes you look like someone argueing a point he has no knowledge about. And no, wikis a'nt enough.
If you disagree completely, just ignore my posts, because I will buy the books and post my (possible) change of mind - I bet even if you'll change your mind you'll find excuses not to just so that your initial view will be right.
P.S.
You don't have to buy the books, some of them are freely available as E-Books.
I'm done discussing this with you - enjoy. I honestly doubt you're able to listen to anyone rather than yourself.
@emilemil1: i guess you understod pretty what i tryed to say in our discussion back there, based at how your opnion changed along the discussion. The only big difference in my and Xerj opnion and yours is the final plot that Heaven will have in the next game.
Obviously you feel that kill angels is a very weird and hope that someway, somehow, Heaven helps us and we leave in peace with then in the end. Actually I agree with you, but for totaly different reasons.
It's pretty sure that the demons is our prime enemies in the story, however why is that? It's because Hell are overcoming Heaven, breaking the balance, thats why we may allie with heaven to restore the balance. However, if the oposite happened, heaven totally overcoming hell, i'm pretty sure that we gotta fight heaven, maybe alling ourselfs with some demons, maybe not.
The main point of the topic is: Can Heaven be our enemy? My answer is and always will be yes. Blizz have suddenly released a huge amount of lore canon to us, and this lore canon put Heaven as a potential threat, just like Hell. I see no reason of why introduce the fanatical Archangel Imperius that want to crush sanctuary if he ended up not been our enemy. I don't see why promote the Necromancers as the only humans that knows the thruth about Heaven and Hell if they are wrong, if Heaven must not be fought if they break the balance. We will fight Heaven? Only Blizz knows. But I think thats it's very likely in the original game or in a EP.
Hehehehe... relax
We all have our own personal speculations about D3's plot. Imo in the classic D3 our main enemy will be Azmodan and Belial. Maybe the last act is in hell at the middle of the civil war and we find two different kinds of demon army, so we gotta fight both to finish the game.
After that, Hell will suffer a terrible loss because all the seven Great Evils are missing and then the expancion will be our fight against Imperius and his angels trying to finish Sanctuary as hell is no longer a problem because of the lack of leadership.
Then we will have a second expancion that for some reason, the Prime Evils came back, and epically we gotta defeat our old and greatest enemies.
This is 100% speculation lol But it's how i feel
My bet is that the prime evils are caught in the Abyss and will return when they regain strength.
There is an obivous difference between the intent of the angels and those of demons. The angels aim to bring order while the demons aim to bring forth chaos. You can argue the means all you want but the ends define their true nature. The angels fight to destroy anything that threatens them, which would in turn threaten the existence of order and peace. So the fighting they do is actually "defensive offense".
The angels see Sanctuary as a threat because of the potential power the people have coupled with the selfish interest that some may possess. People who end up like the Summoner, is what they're worried about.
The reason Imperius is so passionate with his intent to destroy Sanctuary, I believe, is because he prepresents the offensive nature of heaven, while Tyrael represents the defensive side.
Bottom line though....angels and demons have totally different intentions, so stop trying to put them in the same boat just to make them all around enemies of us (The Heroes).
Emilemil1, you're the only one in here who has this understanding....don't let any of these others push you into thinking the way they do.
I only want to know one thing before I comment any further - are you basing your assumptions on your knowledge of the books you've read or are you just throwing this out into the air?