With a bit of a huge delay, I have begun reading the diablo lore and ofcourse began my reading with the sin war trilogy.
Now, from what I understand now - the only difference between heaven and hell is that... the guys from heaven are shiny, and demons are not. Except for that - both of them are evil as... well... something evil, and both of them couldn't care less about humanity.
In some ways heaven is even worse since while Inarius would rather destroy sanctuary rather than see it in hands other than his own, the prime evils seem willing to fight over it (like the manly demons they are, instead of those whiny girly angels).
It's a bit fitting to me to be honest since I always thought in real life that if there is a god, he's probably worse than the devil... but... heh... that's another story.
Aaaanyhow... what I'm trying to say here is... in D2 the worldstone was shattered. That means sanctuary is no longer invisible to both the high heavens and the burning hells, and that would mean that the war between the two could spill over to this world also and ignore this little humanity thing that's going on there.
If that is the case, our heroes might not only have to fight demons, but angels too, to prevent the two from... well... steamrolling this world.
Ofcourse that would be too much of a change from previous diablo games where... you only fight one side while the other is presented in a pretty pink light but... what do you think?
Would you like to fight BOTH of the sides?
P.S.
I'm sorry if this topic had been discussed already before. If it had been then... don't be mad at me
P.S.S.
Apperantly I have spoilers in my post. Go figure...
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~ All of us live in a cage, few of us see it. (S.F.) ~
I think that would be pretty sweet, except what is stopping an angel from just using the power of their holliness to melt the petty humans? aka holy grail
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'Go then, there are other worlds than these'- Jake Chambers
It would be kinda cool fighting both sides, but it's just not Diablo... a diffferent name to the game then sure!
I just ordered the Diablo Archive (all 4 books) from the battle.net site along with a Diablo 3 shirt, excited to read them! Though I'm reading all 3 (technically 6) LOTR books which I haven't read before so i'll probably have to finish that first.
maybe after reading the series i'll change my mind, who knows? for now i'll stick with what i've said.
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg -
But why would we fight Heaven really? They have given many humans the power of holy spells. That is to help us to defeat the demons. If we are going to fight heaven, it is going to be when Heaven is 100% sure that Hell has been/will be destroyed. And if we are going to fight Heaven, what is going to happen with the Holy spells? Would we get help from Hell then? With darkness spells?
Emil... actually... well... sort of... so far from reading the books well... the angels did not give power to the humans.
Humans are the offsprings of angels and demons (do NOT imagine the act itself) and in theory have more power than both of them combined.
When the angels and the demons saw how powerfull their children were, heaven wanted to destroy them (yes... heaven wanted to kill all the humans) and demons wanted to use them as part of their army.
As a compromise they made the world stone, which reduced the human powers to nothing.
Then came lilith (the original leader of the demons and the "mother" of all humans) and awoken those powers in one human, who in turn awoken those powers in others.
And then that human went upon a holy crusade against both heaven and hell.
So in fact the powers of light are not "given" to the humans by heaven, they are powers every human posesses but only a fraction of them uses.
Also, from this story, heaven are not nice!
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~ All of us live in a cage, few of us see it. (S.F.) ~
Probably because we are not purely angels, so there were a possibility that we could join Hell. And since we were more powerful, then we would be a threat that could allow the demons to take over the world. Quite the thing that Heaven wants to avoid at all costs. If destroying a race is what it takes, then why not sacricifing it?
The holy spells thing was just a little fun thing, I was not really serious about that
But we might have the possibility of angels that are afraid that we will join Hell. Pretty tricky for our heroes to step into a battlefield between Heaven and Hell when one side wants to annihilate you (Hell) and the other is afraid of you (Heaven), and therefore finds it safest to also annihilate you. It is already confirmed that the heroes are stronger in D3, so they should have the potential of more power than angels or demons. And I guess that Heaven and Hell are kindof unable to change their opinions on certain things, that is one of the things that makes them the definition of good and evil.
And my logic still says that Heaven is nice. It wants to save as much as possible, with the main priority beeing themselves, obviously. Hell just wants to kill/enslave everything and fill the world with demons. Heaven have to be smart, they have to do everything the safe way to maintain the order and peace that are their goal.
Hey.
Sorry if it sounds that I argue with you, it's not what I try to do but... I want to say that heavens main goal is not to save as much as possible.
They honestly don't care about that.
The high heavens main goal is to destroy the burning hells (for whatever reasons), no matter how many worlds are destroyed in the process. And the burning hells are the same, just want to destroy heaven.
In fact, except for Tyrael (and that is yet to be confirmed) - no angel gives a damn about no human.
They're not good. They're not out there to save men. They're demons in a prettier form and glowing wings.
I say - get the barbarian upstairs and start smashing hooded heads
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~ All of us live in a cage, few of us see it. (S.F.) ~
Probably because we are not purely angels, so there were a possibility that we could join Hell. And since we were more powerful, then we would be a threat that could allow the demons to take over the world. Quite the thing that Heaven wants to avoid at all costs. If destroying a race is what it takes, then why not sacricifing it?
The holy spells thing was just a little fun thing, I was not really serious about that
But we might have the possibility of angels that are afraid that we will join Hell. Pretty tricky for our heroes to step into a battlefield between Heaven and Hell when one side wants to annihilate you (Hell) and the other is afraid of you (Heaven), and therefore finds it safest to also annihilate you. It is already confirmed that the heroes are stronger in D3, so they should have the potential of more power than angels or demons. And I guess that Heaven and Hell are kindof unable to change their opinions on certain things, that is one of the things that makes them the definition of good and evil.
And my logic still says that Heaven is nice. It wants to save as much as possible, with the main priority beeing themselves, obviously. Hell just wants to kill/enslave everything and fill the world with demons. Heaven have to be smart, they have to do everything the safe way to maintain the order and peace that are their goal.
You surely didn't read the books...
As the OP said, Heaven couldn't care less about Sanctuary then Hell. For different reasons, they are surely enemies of the humam kind. It is very clear in the books, just read it and you will see. Keep in mind that Tyriel is nor but a exception.
In some points you are right, maintain "order" are their goal, however it includes eliminating sanctuary. Save humans are not in their plans as far as I kno. Thats why the humans that have access to this kind of knowlegde, like the Priesthood of Rathman (D2 necromancer), fights against both sides, trying to keep a balance between then, because if one overcome the another sanctuary is surely doomed.
Thats why I think we will very problably have to fight Angels. The cristian crowd must understand that the concept of Heaven and Hell in this game are very different from their religion. Think about Zoroastrism, but instead of free choice between the two sides, humans should choose any of then.
"Doesn't care about." can mean alot of things. You can not care about it in the way of Hell, just wanting to take over Sanctuary and add it to their "kingdom". Or you can not cae, like, not care at all what happens to it because it is not important. But it is the Hell that is attacking us, that is a thing to remember. And that makes them very different from Heaven.
The one and only difference between Heaven and Hell is that Heaven want to destroy sanctuary and Hell want to conquer it.
And a assassin is not that different of a person who intend to kill but can't.
"Doesn't care about." can mean alot of things. You can not care about it in the way of Hell, just wanting to take over Sanctuary and add it to their "kingdom". Or you can not cae, like, not care at all what happens to it because it is not important. But it is the Hell that is attacking us, that is a thing to remember. And that makes them very different from Heaven.
Read the books.
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~ All of us live in a cage, few of us see it. (S.F.) ~
I've even made a break in my work out to write this down.
Soooo... lets begin. But before - what I write here is my opinion, which I got from reading the books. I might be wrong, these are not facts and I'm not blizzards lore master.
"If anyone could explain the reasons why Heaven wants to destroy it" - Heaven is afraid of humans since they have the capacity to be stronger than them. Not because they are evil (in fact heaven and hell created Sanctuary TOGETHER, and the leaders of heaven and hell were lovers at the time).
"and why Hell wants to conquer it" - after the break up between Inarius and Lilith, old blood between heaven and hell rose up again and hell sees humans as a potential boost to their forces. Think of the cold war, and the humans as extra missiles.
"And atm, from everything I have seen in this thread, Heaven is indeed nicer than Hell." - Maybe I'm wrong about it, but they are essentially two sides of the same coin. They are the same, with very slight deviations. Tyrael excluded (or not...). Heaven has no higher moral ground, or objection to "evil", per say. They hate demons not because they are evil, or not nice, or not pretty - they just hate them. It is their nature, no one knows why. And in their hatred they had destroyed countless worlds.
"And the Burning Hells are enslaving and devouring humans for fun, Heaven is doing it for a reason, which is to destroy the Burning Hells." - Burning hells are enslaving and devouring humans for the same reason - to destroy the high heavens. They just get more of a kick out of it. You could argue which one is more evil - a sadist or a sociopat.... I think they're both bad.
"I'm atleast pretty sure that Heaven will "help" us as long as we are fighting against Hell. They gain nothing by destroying us now." - Actually, now that the world stone is shattered it is more the reason for heaven to destroy humanity, since the powers of the nefarm are once again available to the humans, and thus humanity can rise to be more powerful than the high heavens. And suuuure... they'll "help" us, if by helping we can call using us for cannon fodder.
"But unless I read, or someone tells me their intentions with the world, after they have destroyed Hell, then I have to assume that Heavens intentions for their world are better for us than the Burning Hells" - The world of Sanctuary was created by a rogue band of demons and angels together, to have a place where they can escape the fighting between the two superpowers. Then they had a big emo fight and began fighting anew. Now each group wants it for themselves to spite off the other. Other than that, they have no plans for the world.
"And I guess that Heaven has something against us for having evil (Burning Hell evil) in our hearts" - sorry to be blunt but, you're wrong. Wrong heaven.
"But instead of just saying "Read the books." Can't you just comment everything I have understood wrong, that are stated clearly in the books as facts, and correct them" - tried my best mate
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~ All of us live in a cage, few of us see it. (S.F.) ~
From what I've understood about Heaven and Hell is this.....Tyrael is the only angel that REALLY cares about humanity. The rest are indifferent, except for Imperius, who pretty much sees humanity as abominations and wants us destroyed.
Hell wants to use us for their own personal gains, knowing the potential we hold. To this end, Hell fears us and wants to gain control of us before we have a chance to side against them.
Now something I can't prove....but I've always thought that maybe Angels & Demons are of the same species....in that maybe they came from the same place.....cause I mean.....they can reproduce with each other, which means there has to be some kind of connection between the two.....
Anyway, enough of my ramblings about that.
I honestly think we'll be dealing with a plot between Imperius, and the burnings hells. Imperius wants us gone, so perhaps he's stricken some kind of deal with Hell.
Now something I can't prove....but I've always thought that maybe Angels & Demons are of the same species....in that maybe they came from the same place.....cause I mean.....they can reproduce with each other, which means there has to be some kind of connection between the two.....
Wow... how come I never thought of that?
You, sir, get a cookie. A big one. From me.
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~ All of us live in a cage, few of us see it. (S.F.) ~
But seriously though, what other reason would Heaven have for hating demons so much.
Think of it like this.....you have an exotic sea turtle species....that lives only on this one island.....one day, some of the turtles go out into the sea, in search of new places for food....
Eventually they cannot find their way home and are stuck in a new land they have found.....there is food, and they learn to survive....over time they change to adapt to their new home....
After thousands of years, when comparing the two species(the ones that stayed on the island, and the ones that left). They are hardly recognizable, but both are still types of turtle.
What if angels and demons used to be the same? What if there were two groups of them. One group liked place A. better to live, due to it being very beautiful(assuming heaven is pretty), the other group liked place B. due to it being very chaotic(hell)......
The two groups went there separate ways, and eventually started to resent the other group for what was viewed as betrayal.
Over time the two groups changed into beings that although don't look similar, are really just two sides to the same coin.
And even in christianity, after all, satan is basically an angel who said F.U. to god and went underground.
I think your theory is pretty sound.
Now we just have to wait and see either in D3 or in some new novel wether it is correct or not, but I think you're on to something
I just figure it would explain why angels hate demons and vice versa ya know?
(not to mention explaining why they are able to reproduce with each other)
It's kind of like whites vs blacks in our world. We are just two races to the same species, we are the same, but different at the same time. Because of this, we generally dislike each other for no REAL reason. But like in our world, their are some that see through the differences, and just see another human. Which would relate to Lillith and Inarius falling in love.
They didn't see an demon and an angel, they just saw another "thing".
The Burning Hell's Lords wants to conquer the sanctuary for two reasons. First they want to use the humans to finaly win the Great Conflict. Second, after the Sin War, demons start to seek vegeance because they lost that war because of the humans.
The High Heaven want to eliminate Sanctuary also for two reasons. First because humans have potential to become alot more powerfull then the own Heavens and this may threaten the plans Heavens have to the universes order. Second because sanctuary itself is a aberration because it was born out of a act of betreyal.
Noone here are telling Heaven and Hell are equal, infact they are opposed forces, but the opposite forces are not good vs. evil, it is order vs. chaos. And order are no better then chaos at the same proportion. A dictator is no better then a serial killer.
I agree with you, most people don't seem to get that Heaven in the diablo universe is completely different than human's idea of Heaven, Diablo Heaven could kill us all :/.
Sanctuary would probably be worse off if Hell won of course, since it would be endless torment & slavery and all...
But it's either that, or be destroyed, or have to worship Heavenly beings.
Depends which one you think is worse :/.
I definitely like the idea of having to fight both sides though, it would make the game so much more epic if you had to take a stand for Sanctuary itself, instead of just taking a stand against Hell.
Having to fight off both sides, to keep Sanctuary free of non-human intervention and influence, would make for one hell of a game.
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Quote from "Sixen" »
"One in every 10 million people can potentially have a headache from this pill." God forbid she is the 0.000000001% of having a headache.
We werent during Sanctuaries creation, then we were criminals that escaped the war, aware of what we were doing.
It's not a matter of what humans did, it's a matter of what humans are.
Humans did nothing in the creation of sanctuary, they did not even exist. The criminals for desertion are the angels and the demons who agreed to flee from the Great Conflict not the Nephalem.
The reason why some angels (problably most because tyriel who disagree are considered a transgressor) want the elimination of sanctuary is because it represents a act of betreyal and threat against their order.
About if Heavens win the Conflict? Theres absolutly no doubt that Sanctuary is going to be destroyed. Rathman put it very clear.
And don' think Heavens want the destruction of sanctuary because they want spare as of a eternity of slavery. The ethics of the angels are far different from our own where life and piece are something sacred - how can life and peace can be something important to a order that dedicates all eternity to war ? The High Heavens are not victims trying to defend something bigger. Execly like Hell, they are a army trying to win a war.
If the "greater good" of Heaven is to overcome all the other forces of the universe, what makes it different from Hell ?
''So it is all a act of revenge against the traitors and their families? But that was then, now is now. Our memories were erased, and we were not the traitors. We are not the ones that have done wrong, and I unless someone can explain why the Council decided to let Sanctuary remain, I assume that it is because they don't care about the humans, we have not done anything''
It's not a matter of revenge, it's their justice. I know it's a twisted concept, but it's execly how they think. Again, this information is very clear in the Sin War trilogy.
Noone know execly why the Council led sanctuary remain alone at a first moment. In my opnion is because Hell is a bigger priority, as humans are not execly enemies to the Council, but unwished beings.
"I'm fairly sure that angels and demons values life in different ways. Demons probably puts their own life above everything else. Angels probably puts the things/people that are more valuable than them above their own life. Life is probably not something sacred for demons, atleast not the life of anyone other than themselves. But I do believe that angels believes in preserving things that they love and/or finds more important than themselves. But why would angels care about us?""
Your arguments are all based at you beliefs, not in facts found in any lore canon.
We have close to nothing info about how the angels thinks and acts, because the two angels we know well Tyrael and Inarius are both rebels. The only exception is Imperius and his followers who cleary want to destroy Sanctuary and are surely very influent in the Council, once his a Archangel of War, and battle is seens to be their main priority.
All my opnions is based at what Trang'Oul says to Rathman. It is putted very clear that if any of the sides win, sanctuary looses. Thats why the balance between those two forces must remain and sanctuary destruction is happening triggered by the victory of any of those sides.
"This would pretty much be my picture of the struggle. Humans can be extremely useful when it comes to defeating Hell and eliminate the chaos that they support. But they can also be the end of Heaven and the status quo that they want to achieve. They could of course repeat their actions and create a new worldstone. There are probably many decisions that can be made, but the way the Angiris Council makes their decison this time might be different from the old one. But if someone could explain in more detail, why the Angiris Council decided to not destroy Sanctuary."
Your picture are right, with one big flaw. It's not the Council that created the worldstone to weak the Nephalem to prevent then to become a threat. This info is just wrong.
Who created the WS was Inarius and Lilith in their aliance to prevent Sanctuary been founded by both Heaven and Hell (wich automatically shows that both heaven and hell are a threat). However, Inarius "changed the frequency" of the WS, making it not just a invisible cloak to the other two planes, but also a tool to drain the Nephalem's might.
It's very clear that Heavens are not warmongers like Hell, in this very point you are right. However, in they eternal fight against Hell they sacrifices other worlds if needed and this very point makes then just like Hell who sacrifices other worlds for their needs. You can say Heaven sacrifices for the defiance of their causes, but it's just execly what Hell do. If you think angel's causes is greater and make then better then demons, well, it doesnt matter because the means never justify the ends.
"They dedicate themselves to war because they have to. Otherwise they would be "
destroyed."
Thats not true at all. Noone knows who started the Great Conflict. In most of the lore canon, this conflict is threated in a bilateral point of view. Heaven attacks Hell for their good and Hell fight Heaven for their own good too. The difference is what their represent, but as I side, angels are not victims that are only defending thenself. They are soldiers just like demons.
In the end it's just a ethical discussion that will never have a end. In my point of view, a police man that tortures a terrorist is EXECLY like a terrorist that torture a political enemy. They both do the same things to achieve their goal, different goals yes, but again, the ends really doens't matter when we are talking about the means. The fight for a "greater good" is in fact a act of egoism, because this greater good always represent something you like, you enjoy, wich makes you no different from a bandit. Altruism only exist when we are talking about the means, so a altruist person is someone who never uses means that hurt others, no matter what the end is.
So imo, Heaven is a threat to sanctuary, problably a lesser threat, but still not a ally. Thats what I like so much the Sin War trilogy and the lore behind the Necromancer.
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"In time the hissing of her sanity
Faded out her voice and soiled her name
And like marked pages in a diary
Everything seemed clean that is unstained
The incoherent talk of ordinary days
Why would we really need to live?
Decide what is clear and what's within a haze
What you should take and what to give" - Opeth
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With a bit of a huge delay, I have begun reading the diablo lore and ofcourse began my reading with the sin war trilogy.
Now, from what I understand now - the only difference between heaven and hell is that... the guys from heaven are shiny, and demons are not. Except for that - both of them are evil as... well... something evil, and both of them couldn't care less about humanity.
In some ways heaven is even worse since while Inarius would rather destroy sanctuary rather than see it in hands other than his own, the prime evils seem willing to fight over it (like the manly demons they are, instead of those whiny girly angels).
It's a bit fitting to me to be honest since I always thought in real life that if there is a god, he's probably worse than the devil... but... heh... that's another story.
Aaaanyhow... what I'm trying to say here is... in D2 the worldstone was shattered. That means sanctuary is no longer invisible to both the high heavens and the burning hells, and that would mean that the war between the two could spill over to this world also and ignore this little humanity thing that's going on there.
If that is the case, our heroes might not only have to fight demons, but angels too, to prevent the two from... well... steamrolling this world.
Ofcourse that would be too much of a change from previous diablo games where... you only fight one side while the other is presented in a pretty pink light but... what do you think?
Would you like to fight BOTH of the sides?
P.S.
I'm sorry if this topic had been discussed already before. If it had been then... don't be mad at me
P.S.S.
Apperantly I have spoilers in my post. Go figure...
I just ordered the Diablo Archive (all 4 books) from the battle.net site along with a Diablo 3 shirt, excited to read them! Though I'm reading all 3 (technically 6) LOTR books which I haven't read before so i'll probably have to finish that first.
maybe after reading the series i'll change my mind, who knows? for now i'll stick with what i've said.
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
- Steven Weinberg -
Emil... actually... well... sort of... so far from reading the books well... the angels did not give power to the humans.
Humans are the offsprings of angels and demons (do NOT imagine the act itself) and in theory have more power than both of them combined.
When the angels and the demons saw how powerfull their children were, heaven wanted to destroy them (yes... heaven wanted to kill all the humans) and demons wanted to use them as part of their army.
As a compromise they made the world stone, which reduced the human powers to nothing.
Then came lilith (the original leader of the demons and the "mother" of all humans) and awoken those powers in one human, who in turn awoken those powers in others.
And then that human went upon a holy crusade against both heaven and hell.
So in fact the powers of light are not "given" to the humans by heaven, they are powers every human posesses but only a fraction of them uses.
Also, from this story, heaven are not nice!
Hey.
Sorry if it sounds that I argue with you, it's not what I try to do but... I want to say that heavens main goal is not to save as much as possible.
They honestly don't care about that.
The high heavens main goal is to destroy the burning hells (for whatever reasons), no matter how many worlds are destroyed in the process. And the burning hells are the same, just want to destroy heaven.
In fact, except for Tyrael (and that is yet to be confirmed) - no angel gives a damn about no human.
They're not good. They're not out there to save men. They're demons in a prettier form and glowing wings.
I say - get the barbarian upstairs and start smashing hooded heads
You surely didn't read the books...
As the OP said, Heaven couldn't care less about Sanctuary then Hell. For different reasons, they are surely enemies of the humam kind. It is very clear in the books, just read it and you will see. Keep in mind that Tyriel is nor but a exception.
In some points you are right, maintain "order" are their goal, however it includes eliminating sanctuary. Save humans are not in their plans as far as I kno. Thats why the humans that have access to this kind of knowlegde, like the Priesthood of Rathman (D2 necromancer), fights against both sides, trying to keep a balance between then, because if one overcome the another sanctuary is surely doomed.
Thats why I think we will very problably have to fight Angels. The cristian crowd must understand that the concept of Heaven and Hell in this game are very different from their religion. Think about Zoroastrism, but instead of free choice between the two sides, humans should choose any of then.
The one and only difference between Heaven and Hell is that Heaven want to destroy sanctuary and Hell want to conquer it.
And a assassin is not that different of a person who intend to kill but can't.
Read the books.
The world may never know...
I say fight heaven AND hell.
Twice as many foes (just think of the XP)
I've even made a break in my work out to write this down.
Soooo... lets begin. But before - what I write here is my opinion, which I got from reading the books. I might be wrong, these are not facts and I'm not blizzards lore master.
"If anyone could explain the reasons why Heaven wants to destroy it" - Heaven is afraid of humans since they have the capacity to be stronger than them. Not because they are evil (in fact heaven and hell created Sanctuary TOGETHER, and the leaders of heaven and hell were lovers at the time).
"and why Hell wants to conquer it" - after the break up between Inarius and Lilith, old blood between heaven and hell rose up again and hell sees humans as a potential boost to their forces. Think of the cold war, and the humans as extra missiles.
"And atm, from everything I have seen in this thread, Heaven is indeed nicer than Hell." - Maybe I'm wrong about it, but they are essentially two sides of the same coin. They are the same, with very slight deviations. Tyrael excluded (or not...). Heaven has no higher moral ground, or objection to "evil", per say. They hate demons not because they are evil, or not nice, or not pretty - they just hate them. It is their nature, no one knows why. And in their hatred they had destroyed countless worlds.
"And the Burning Hells are enslaving and devouring humans for fun, Heaven is doing it for a reason, which is to destroy the Burning Hells." - Burning hells are enslaving and devouring humans for the same reason - to destroy the high heavens. They just get more of a kick out of it. You could argue which one is more evil - a sadist or a sociopat.... I think they're both bad.
"I'm atleast pretty sure that Heaven will "help" us as long as we are fighting against Hell. They gain nothing by destroying us now." - Actually, now that the world stone is shattered it is more the reason for heaven to destroy humanity, since the powers of the nefarm are once again available to the humans, and thus humanity can rise to be more powerful than the high heavens. And suuuure... they'll "help" us, if by helping we can call using us for cannon fodder.
"But unless I read, or someone tells me their intentions with the world, after they have destroyed Hell, then I have to assume that Heavens intentions for their world are better for us than the Burning Hells" - The world of Sanctuary was created by a rogue band of demons and angels together, to have a place where they can escape the fighting between the two superpowers. Then they had a big emo fight and began fighting anew. Now each group wants it for themselves to spite off the other. Other than that, they have no plans for the world.
"And I guess that Heaven has something against us for having evil (Burning Hell evil) in our hearts" - sorry to be blunt but, you're wrong. Wrong heaven.
"But instead of just saying "Read the books." Can't you just comment everything I have understood wrong, that are stated clearly in the books as facts, and correct them" - tried my best mate
Hell wants to use us for their own personal gains, knowing the potential we hold. To this end, Hell fears us and wants to gain control of us before we have a chance to side against them.
Now something I can't prove....but I've always thought that maybe Angels & Demons are of the same species....in that maybe they came from the same place.....cause I mean.....they can reproduce with each other, which means there has to be some kind of connection between the two.....
Anyway, enough of my ramblings about that.
I honestly think we'll be dealing with a plot between Imperius, and the burnings hells. Imperius wants us gone, so perhaps he's stricken some kind of deal with Hell.
Wow... how come I never thought of that?
You, sir, get a cookie. A big one. From me.
WEEE!!!
But seriously though, what other reason would Heaven have for hating demons so much.
Think of it like this.....you have an exotic sea turtle species....that lives only on this one island.....one day, some of the turtles go out into the sea, in search of new places for food....
Eventually they cannot find their way home and are stuck in a new land they have found.....there is food, and they learn to survive....over time they change to adapt to their new home....
After thousands of years, when comparing the two species(the ones that stayed on the island, and the ones that left). They are hardly recognizable, but both are still types of turtle.
What if angels and demons used to be the same? What if there were two groups of them. One group liked place A. better to live, due to it being very beautiful(assuming heaven is pretty), the other group liked place B. due to it being very chaotic(hell)......
The two groups went there separate ways, and eventually started to resent the other group for what was viewed as betrayal.
Over time the two groups changed into beings that although don't look similar, are really just two sides to the same coin.
And even in christianity, after all, satan is basically an angel who said F.U. to god and went underground.
I think your theory is pretty sound.
Now we just have to wait and see either in D3 or in some new novel wether it is correct or not, but I think you're on to something
I just figure it would explain why angels hate demons and vice versa ya know?
(not to mention explaining why they are able to reproduce with each other)
It's kind of like whites vs blacks in our world. We are just two races to the same species, we are the same, but different at the same time. Because of this, we generally dislike each other for no REAL reason. But like in our world, their are some that see through the differences, and just see another human. Which would relate to Lillith and Inarius falling in love.
They didn't see an demon and an angel, they just saw another "thing".
The High Heaven want to eliminate Sanctuary also for two reasons. First because humans have potential to become alot more powerfull then the own Heavens and this may threaten the plans Heavens have to the universes order. Second because sanctuary itself is a aberration because it was born out of a act of betreyal.
Noone here are telling Heaven and Hell are equal, infact they are opposed forces, but the opposite forces are not good vs. evil, it is order vs. chaos. And order are no better then chaos at the same proportion. A dictator is no better then a serial killer.
Sanctuary would probably be worse off if Hell won of course, since it would be endless torment & slavery and all...
But it's either that, or be destroyed, or have to worship Heavenly beings.
Depends which one you think is worse :/.
I definitely like the idea of having to fight both sides though, it would make the game so much more epic if you had to take a stand for Sanctuary itself, instead of just taking a stand against Hell.
Having to fight off both sides, to keep Sanctuary free of non-human intervention and influence, would make for one hell of a game.
It's not a matter of what humans did, it's a matter of what humans are.
Humans did nothing in the creation of sanctuary, they did not even exist. The criminals for desertion are the angels and the demons who agreed to flee from the Great Conflict not the Nephalem.
The reason why some angels (problably most because tyriel who disagree are considered a transgressor) want the elimination of sanctuary is because it represents a act of betreyal and threat against their order.
About if Heavens win the Conflict? Theres absolutly no doubt that Sanctuary is going to be destroyed. Rathman put it very clear.
And don' think Heavens want the destruction of sanctuary because they want spare as of a eternity of slavery. The ethics of the angels are far different from our own where life and piece are something sacred - how can life and peace can be something important to a order that dedicates all eternity to war ? The High Heavens are not victims trying to defend something bigger. Execly like Hell, they are a army trying to win a war.
If the "greater good" of Heaven is to overcome all the other forces of the universe, what makes it different from Hell ?
It's not a matter of revenge, it's their justice. I know it's a twisted concept, but it's execly how they think. Again, this information is very clear in the Sin War trilogy.
Noone know execly why the Council led sanctuary remain alone at a first moment. In my opnion is because Hell is a bigger priority, as humans are not execly enemies to the Council, but unwished beings.
"I'm fairly sure that angels and demons values life in different ways. Demons probably puts their own life above everything else. Angels probably puts the things/people that are more valuable than them above their own life. Life is probably not something sacred for demons, atleast not the life of anyone other than themselves. But I do believe that angels believes in preserving things that they love and/or finds more important than themselves. But why would angels care about us?""
Your arguments are all based at you beliefs, not in facts found in any lore canon.
We have close to nothing info about how the angels thinks and acts, because the two angels we know well Tyrael and Inarius are both rebels. The only exception is Imperius and his followers who cleary want to destroy Sanctuary and are surely very influent in the Council, once his a Archangel of War, and battle is seens to be their main priority.
All my opnions is based at what Trang'Oul says to Rathman. It is putted very clear that if any of the sides win, sanctuary looses. Thats why the balance between those two forces must remain and sanctuary destruction is happening triggered by the victory of any of those sides.
"This would pretty much be my picture of the struggle. Humans can be extremely useful when it comes to defeating Hell and eliminate the chaos that they support. But they can also be the end of Heaven and the status quo that they want to achieve. They could of course repeat their actions and create a new worldstone. There are probably many decisions that can be made, but the way the Angiris Council makes their decison this time might be different from the old one. But if someone could explain in more detail, why the Angiris Council decided to not destroy Sanctuary."
Your picture are right, with one big flaw. It's not the Council that created the worldstone to weak the Nephalem to prevent then to become a threat. This info is just wrong.
Who created the WS was Inarius and Lilith in their aliance to prevent Sanctuary been founded by both Heaven and Hell (wich automatically shows that both heaven and hell are a threat). However, Inarius "changed the frequency" of the WS, making it not just a invisible cloak to the other two planes, but also a tool to drain the Nephalem's might.
It's very clear that Heavens are not warmongers like Hell, in this very point you are right. However, in they eternal fight against Hell they sacrifices other worlds if needed and this very point makes then just like Hell who sacrifices other worlds for their needs. You can say Heaven sacrifices for the defiance of their causes, but it's just execly what Hell do. If you think angel's causes is greater and make then better then demons, well, it doesnt matter because the means never justify the ends.
"They dedicate themselves to war because they have to. Otherwise they would be "
destroyed."
Thats not true at all. Noone knows who started the Great Conflict. In most of the lore canon, this conflict is threated in a bilateral point of view. Heaven attacks Hell for their good and Hell fight Heaven for their own good too. The difference is what their represent, but as I side, angels are not victims that are only defending thenself. They are soldiers just like demons.
In the end it's just a ethical discussion that will never have a end. In my point of view, a police man that tortures a terrorist is EXECLY like a terrorist that torture a political enemy. They both do the same things to achieve their goal, different goals yes, but again, the ends really doens't matter when we are talking about the means. The fight for a "greater good" is in fact a act of egoism, because this greater good always represent something you like, you enjoy, wich makes you no different from a bandit. Altruism only exist when we are talking about the means, so a altruist person is someone who never uses means that hurt others, no matter what the end is.
So imo, Heaven is a threat to sanctuary, problably a lesser threat, but still not a ally. Thats what I like so much the Sin War trilogy and the lore behind the Necromancer.