One thing that always seemed a little strange to me, in DII:LOD, Baal's ultimate goal is to get into Mt. Arreat, but why is he having his forces attack a town instead of just sending all his forces into Mt. Arreat. Sorry if this has been asked, I couldn't find it anywhere. The only possible explanation i could think of was in order to bypass the Ancients, (from getting to Nihlathak) but if that was the case, he could have simply used his army that was sieging Harrogath to defeat the ancients quicker.
Have you seen the area of the Ancients? It certainly couldn't fit his whole army up there. I think one reason to siege Harrogath would simply be because it is the last possible resistance against him. So instead of running the risk of people coming out to stop them, he tries to contain them inside the town. He might even have been able to take Harrogath all along, but orchestrated the whole attempt to take the town to get someone like Nilhathak to come out and negotiate with him. Because as militarily weak as the town is, who knows what methods they could've used to hide the Relic?
I also kind of suspect that it was truly impossible for Baal to defeat the Ancients. This could have something to do with their origins of power having a very negating effect on Baal's power. So it could be that almost as soon as Baal obtained the relic, he would've just sent the rest of his army in anyway to plow over Harrogath. Luckily by that time, you come along and break the siege, taking some of the fight out of Baal's army.
Yeah, I agree with Siaynoq! If he was to be able to defeat the Ancients easily, then he wouldn't need the Relic, right! That's why it's called the Relic of the Ancients! It is used to get passed through the Summit without the Ancients testing you! Since we didn't have the Relic with us, the Ancients tested us! But the point is, the power of the Ancients is stronger against Baal than it is against you, due to Baal's origin, right! Which means that Baal didn't wanted to take any chances with the three of them, so he obtained the Relic to get a free pass!
um what relic? apparently i missed a huge chapter of the game... :\
The Relic of the Ancients is an artifact that allows you to enter the Worldstone Chamber without being tested in combat by the Ancients. It was the artifact that Nihlathak gave to Baal in supposed exchange for the safety of Harrogath.
Harrogath is directly in the pass to the way to the Ancients, so in order to get through, he needed to pummel it to ashes. The same thing with Cicero (spell check) in the opening cinematic for Act V. He had to put in under siege, in case you were wondering, instead of just destroying it because the Elders sacrificed themselves to create a magic barrier of protection around it (although I'm not sure how strong it once- I can't remember if they said it failed completely because Nihlithak didn't participate).
The protective ward actually did succeed. It was just at the expense of all the Elders' lives. Nihlathak even helped raise the ward, but he fled during the attack while the rest of them stayed there to ensure its activation.
And I think you meant Sescheron. Though I'm not positive on that spelling either. LOL
Is the barrier continuous or did it only work for one period of time? Happen to know? Now that I think about it, I can't remember much being said about it.
@ Spelling: Yeah, something like that, lol. I can only remember thinking it sounded slightly Italian for some reason. That's definitely closer, though.
If you read the LOD manual, especially the parts of Aust's journal, it talks a lot about the ward. For isntance, did you know that the ward was a form of Druid magic?
Anyway, I'm not sure how long it lasted. Obviously it got them through long enough before you kill Baal. The siege during that time wasn't meant to destroy the town so much as to contain them. I think Baal's forces knew they wouldn't be able to get through the ward. The Barbarians only suffered direct casualties when they went out and tried breaking the siege.
But you have to remember the Three are all linked- when they're together, they are their most powerful. So, with Diablo and Mephisto dead (or at least sent back to the Abyss), and thus not in Sanctuary, I'm sure that had to have substantially weakened Baal. While I agree with you to some extent, perhaps it's just because he didn't have the power to take it down himself at the moment. And if he couldn't do it, no wizard or demon under him could.
Baal, as destructive he is, wouldn`t just contain his enemy. He purely wanted to destroy Horroghat but that was liike second. He was focused on the Worldstone. I think that Baal could`ve broken the ward if he had tasked some high ranked wizard=demon or done it himself. It`s just that didn`t matter to him at the moment.
It is true that ultimately Baal would wish Harrogath to be destroyed. But I think you should neither underestimate the protective ward, nor overestimate Baal's powers at this time. Like Mag said, by this time he is diminished to quite an extent. He may be gradually growing in power again, but the Worldstone is his last huge gamble. If it works, all the powers of the Worldstone are likely to be at his command. If it fails, well we saw what happened when his plan failed. Except for that some disagree what the Worldstone's destruction meant for Sanctuary.
Harrogath was still a threat to him though. If not the city itself, then at least elements within the city, such as yourself, were perceived by him as a threat. And Baal may be weakened, but he still doesn't seem stupid. If he can't destroy Harrogath, he's going to at least contain it until he can deal with it later.
The Relic of the Ancients is an artifact that allows you to enter the Worldstone Chamber without being tested in combat by the Ancients. It was the artifact that Nihlathak gave to Baal in supposed exchange for the safety of Harrogath.
hmm perhaps they would be harder against baal for being evil? as dont the ancients say something about only the faithful and true of heart would be allowed through. so perhaps its easier for our hero as we have good intentions, than it would be for baal who has bad intentions.
The Ancients are Nephalem, and everyone knows (the High Heavens and the Burning Hells) how powerful they are. I don't think that Baal wanted to take the chance to fight against three of them.
Well, Prime Evil... Nephalem... I'd say they're equal at best. But what you say would still apply- Baal didn't want to have to take a challenge he could possibly lose, because he's smart. He knew about the Relic of the Ancients and that by using it he would eliminate that possibility of defeat, and so he went with that plan. And it worked.
So why did the hero win against them, if they are so powerful? Could be that the Ancients sensed that he/she was pure of heart, yet wanted to test if he/she was strong enough to defeat Baal.
You mean, they went slightly easier on the hero than they would against someone with ill intentions? I could believe that. I don't think that they ever admitted to that, but it's a possibility, like you said. I hadn't thought of it before.
So why did the hero win against them, if they are so powerful? Could be that the Ancients sensed that he/she was pure of heart, yet wanted to test if he/she was strong enough to defeat Baal.
In the very least, it's an excellent plot tool for Blizzard to utilize when they want to explain how things happened as they did in D2.
I've always thouhg the Nehpalem evolved into something entirely different with the books than what was meant to be, and so the whole Baal/Ancients power balancing isn't based on the nephalem of the books, but after whatever they were during the development of LoD. If so, then any of our guesses will never really fit into the bigger picture, though it might be good enough anyway in the end.
The next questions however is: Why was the relic created if the Ancients themselves could choose who to fight? Wouldn't that make the purpose of the relic, meaning letting humans bypass the Ancients, obsolete?
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Hm... Well, perhaps thousands of years ago, in the beginning, they foresaw some conflict like this? Perhaps they wanted Baal to get in to the Worldstone Chamber. Perhaps they wanted all of this to happen. For humanity, they would prove themselves enduring, powerful, and more than just a cross-breed of angel and demon. It would prove that humanity is something more- a major power among the worlds. The Nephalem obviously knew about the tainting of the Worldstone- maybe they wanted to prove that humans could beat the odds, be the better race, and ultimately regain the power, prestige, and honor of their original form- Nephalem.
The next questions however is: Why was the relic created if the Ancients themselves could choose who to fight? Wouldn't that make the purpose of the relic, meaning letting humans bypass the Ancients, obsolete?
We don't know if they're choosing whom to fight. The Relic could be a very rare artifact that somehow negates Nephalem power. So perhaps they would fight anyone who tried to enter the chamber, but having the Relic made them powerless or even somewhat cloaked to the Ancients.
And you're right Phrozen. It's difficult even to conjecture because of how different these Nephalem in the games seem compared to the books.
I dont think the ancients just let the hero through. During the game you take on legions of demons, destroy two lesser evils and two prime evils diablo and mephisto whilst taking on many minions of all four that are incredibly strong. Maybe you do it on your own and baal was smart enough not to take the risk... im sure if the hero was given the chance to use the relic he would have too. My point being i think the hero was just as strong as the ancients.
There was a theory I read, actually, that the tainting on the Worldstone was slowly diminishing, so powerful heroes arose among humanity, supposedly these heroes were getting closer to the stature of the Nephalem, what humans would have been without the Tainting. Hm... What if all humanity was Nephalem? Interesting.
There was a theory I read, actually, that the tainting on the Worldstone was slowly diminishing, so powerful heroes arose among humanity, supposedly these heroes were getting closer to the stature of the Nephalem, what humans would have been without the Tainting. Hm... What if all humanity was Nephalem? Interesting.
All mortals in Sanctuary are descended from the Nephalem. Even Anya talks a bit about this.
Quote from "Gaschk13" »
I dont think the ancients just let the hero through. During the game you take on legions of demons, destroy two lesser evils and two prime evils diablo and mephisto whilst taking on many minions of all four that are incredibly strong. Maybe you do it on your own and baal was smart enough not to take the risk... im sure if the hero was given the chance to use the relic he would have too. My point being i think the hero was just as strong as the ancients.
I think the Hero would be pretty strong, but just in different ways than the Nephalem. And according to the lore now anyway, it wasn't just one Hero who defeated the Prime Evils.
I also kind of suspect that it was truly impossible for Baal to defeat the Ancients. This could have something to do with their origins of power having a very negating effect on Baal's power. So it could be that almost as soon as Baal obtained the relic, he would've just sent the rest of his army in anyway to plow over Harrogath. Luckily by that time, you come along and break the siege, taking some of the fight out of Baal's army.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
um what relic? apparently i missed a huge chapter of the game... :\
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
And I think you meant Sescheron. Though I'm not positive on that spelling either. LOL
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
@ Spelling: Yeah, something like that, lol. I can only remember thinking it sounded slightly Italian for some reason. That's definitely closer, though.
Anyway, I'm not sure how long it lasted. Obviously it got them through long enough before you kill Baal. The siege during that time wasn't meant to destroy the town so much as to contain them. I think Baal's forces knew they wouldn't be able to get through the ward. The Barbarians only suffered direct casualties when they went out and tried breaking the siege.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
Harrogath was still a threat to him though. If not the city itself, then at least elements within the city, such as yourself, were perceived by him as a threat. And Baal may be weakened, but he still doesn't seem stupid. If he can't destroy Harrogath, he's going to at least contain it until he can deal with it later.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
hmm perhaps they would be harder against baal for being evil? as dont the ancients say something about only the faithful and true of heart would be allowed through. so perhaps its easier for our hero as we have good intentions, than it would be for baal who has bad intentions.
Well, Prime Evil... Nephalem... I'd say they're equal at best. But what you say would still apply- Baal didn't want to have to take a challenge he could possibly lose, because he's smart. He knew about the Relic of the Ancients and that by using it he would eliminate that possibility of defeat, and so he went with that plan. And it worked.
You mean, they went slightly easier on the hero than they would against someone with ill intentions? I could believe that. I don't think that they ever admitted to that, but it's a possibility, like you said. I hadn't thought of it before.
I've always thouhg the Nehpalem evolved into something entirely different with the books than what was meant to be, and so the whole Baal/Ancients power balancing isn't based on the nephalem of the books, but after whatever they were during the development of LoD. If so, then any of our guesses will never really fit into the bigger picture, though it might be good enough anyway in the end.
The next questions however is: Why was the relic created if the Ancients themselves could choose who to fight? Wouldn't that make the purpose of the relic, meaning letting humans bypass the Ancients, obsolete?
Hm... Well, perhaps thousands of years ago, in the beginning, they foresaw some conflict like this? Perhaps they wanted Baal to get in to the Worldstone Chamber. Perhaps they wanted all of this to happen. For humanity, they would prove themselves enduring, powerful, and more than just a cross-breed of angel and demon. It would prove that humanity is something more- a major power among the worlds. The Nephalem obviously knew about the tainting of the Worldstone- maybe they wanted to prove that humans could beat the odds, be the better race, and ultimately regain the power, prestige, and honor of their original form- Nephalem.
And you're right Phrozen. It's difficult even to conjecture because of how different these Nephalem in the games seem compared to the books.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
All mortals in Sanctuary are descended from the Nephalem. Even Anya talks a bit about this.
I think the Hero would be pretty strong, but just in different ways than the Nephalem. And according to the lore now anyway, it wasn't just one Hero who defeated the Prime Evils.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs