Wasn't referring to WoW; Think the last Sony-owned MMO that did really well. There were a number of game mechanics introduced that make things easier.
In the order of risk, I think Bliz has more to lose at this moment with D3 rather than D2 (financially).
I would think they would rather "screw around with a classic" and get things as much right with D3 from the onset than murk around after. "Murking around" post-release certainly did speed up Hellgate's demise. Introducing "respec" into D2 also renews interest in the franchise (how many naysayers here will be going back to try it out anyway, come on, be honest), opens a ready channel for user-testing and feebback. Highly desirable to Bliz, IMO.
I have no idea what MMOs Sony has recently, or ever, produced, so your point is wasted on me.
D2 is a completely different game than D3. They can't accurately examine results from an introduction of respec'ing to D2 and expect similar results for D3 because the games' spells and mechanics will inevitably work differently. On the one hand, where D2's spells were designed to be used 2 or 3 at a time, D3's were designed with the intentions of the player focusing on around 6 according to the Class Panel at WWI (which has recently become unearthed again).
They won't have to murk around post-release if they do proper testing on their own first. They keep talking about failed experiments and how certain things just don't feel "Diablo", so they're obviously doing that pretty regularly. I don't see how changing a game that isn't the one they're trying to develop will benefit them greatly.
Not that I'm against respec'ing in Diablo 2. I'm as interested as the next guy, and I can't find any holes in it (although we don't have much info on it yet). I just don't want them to be doing what you're suggesting they are, screwing with a near-perfect, iconic game for the benefit of another years later.
I always thought they had open battlenet and single player where your aloud to hack for people who wanted to experiment with builds without having to level characters.
Hopefully next patch they give double skill points, when they still have people complaining they cant can't even make a good character with a respec.
I'm pretty sure they don't want to encourage the hacking that goes on in open/single player, whether they tolerate it there or not.
Respecs are providing people with the means to fix mistakes without resorting to unsupported and possibly risky 3rd-party programs. This might reduce the number of people drawn to using hero editors.
I'm sure there will always be people who like to just overpower their character with hero editor, but that's never what I enjoyed using it for. I used it so I didn't have to spend time releveling a character because I hadn't researched all the skills/builds before playing him.
I understand that some people feel it's removing the challenge from the game, or shortening the game, and it probably is doing that. Maybe this just isn't a good way to make the game longer or more challenging to begin with.
I honestly didn't care that much if this feature was added for D2, but in D3 I'm guessing they plan on balancing the game around features like this, so you'll still be playing for a long time even if you can respec to try out different builds without rerolling.
They've stated they want to make dungeons feel worth exploring. I remember in D2 you mainly rushed through dungeons to hit the bosses because there was little worth finding except off them. I think that's a positive way to make the game experience longer. Make it so I want to explore every nook and cranny in a dungeon, because you never know what's around the corner.
Keep in mind, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion. I see where you're coming from... you're used to a certain system and it feels cheap to change it now. I'm fairly new to D2, really didn't start playing it until I heard about D3 a year or so ago, and I don't play it heavily.
I have always played passworded Battle.net, occasionally with real-world friends, so I know my opinion has a high chance of being ignored. For those who are willing to listen to me, I for one am glad for this. I hope that they use a system like that in Titan Quest, which I also noticed has not been mentioned yet.
The respec system I am talking about from Titan Quest has you buy back skill points one by one, and the cost increases with each point reclaimed. For example, let's say you realise you don't need Whirlwind for the build you are using. So you go to the re-spec vendor, and buy back a point in Whirlwind for 1000 gold (the starting number from TQ). The cost is now 2000, and you continue buying more. Overall, if you have, say, 8 points in Whirlwind, at a 200% increase per point bought, you will need to spend 255,000 gold (of course, TQ had a slightly gentler slope for respec cost increase, but you guys understand, right?).
I don't get that whole "they are doing this to test the feature for D3" stuff. In a way, Shisou is right. They are different games.
They are giving D2 respecs because they believe it is a good thing, plain and simple. No need for that "testing" theory that came out of nowhere.
I think the point I was trying to put across is including "respec" into D2 would always generate learnings for D3 (whether that is Bliz's primary motive is up for speculation).
As such, approach the upcoming D2 respec with an open mind and likely we will see benefit down the line.
Ok the people scared that this will make the game shorter or easier or what not. So far they said they were adding respecing. What else are they going to add? Im shure there will be new dungeons that are really hard and new areas to explore and possibly new npc's to talk to. I dont think the patch is just going to be respecing then here ya go the game just got worse in some of your people's eyes. Dont argue about respecing until you know that is all there adding which I highly doubt it is.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
www.myspace.com/mpotatoes for all your Trans Siberian Orchestra listening pleasure
If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
Exactly why respeccing sucks my friend. Every character shouldnt be able to do anything. Example, I made an FoH'din, and he sucked at pvm. He pwned at pvp. If I wanted to level him, I had to get friends to help me in private runs or join pub runs and risk some jerk trying to pk me. Notice I said try to pk me becuase I'd probably reject him and laugh in his face. Now I'm just gonna spec out to hammerdin and respec to foh later on if I want a foh'er. Congratulations, instead of being bored out of your mind leveling 3 sorcs, which could easily be done in less then a week, you will now be bored by pvm characters all being of the same type for each class, and prove your lack of game knowledge by being ignorant to this fact.
You don't understand, why would I want to level 3 sorceresses? FUUUUUUUUU Why?! Knowledge?! Diablo 2?!. You're taking this all to seriously. I usually just play with my brother and cousin in PVM and you're making out like it's someone's 401k. It's not that hard to understand. I don't like playing the same character out to high level multiple times, so this feature is nice, because I like all of the spells, and I should not have to level another character (however long that may take, even though the act alone is somewhat draining) just to go from shooting fire to shooting ice. You say it takes less then a week, but that would be with rushing and that just bores the hell out of me even more. "Congratulations, instead of being.. blah blah blah", like, really? REALLY? How is this a fact? Did you request a study by some University? Your argument doesn't make much sense when you say I'll be bored either way, whether it be rushing or changing the skills. If I'm gonna be bored no matter what, then doesn't that make your so called fact (something you made up while sweating in your basement) irrelevant?
How is this possibly removing the "Challenge" from Diablo 2? The game has been out for nine years... what challenge is left?! Respecs aren't going to bring me back to Diablo II, but more content will.
Here is a slightly off-topic question though... does anyone know if they're going to integrate the new Battle.net 2.0 into Diablo II // Warcraft III?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------------------------------- Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
You don't understand, why would I want to level 3 sorceresses? FUUUUUUUUU Why?! Knowledge?! Diablo 2?!. You're taking this all to seriously. I usually just play with my brother and cousin in PVM and you're making out like it's someone's 401k. It's not that hard to understand. I don't like playing the same character out to high level multiple times, so this feature is nice, because I like all of the spells, and I should not have to level another character (however long that may take, even though the act alone is somewhat draining) just to go from shooting fire to shooting ice. You say it takes less then a week, but that would be with rushing and that just bores the hell out of me even more. "Congratulations, instead of being.. blah blah blah", like, really? REALLY? How is this a fact? Did you request a study by some University? Your argument doesn't make much sense when you say I'll be bored either way, whether it be rushing or changing the skills. If I'm gonna be bored no matter what, then doesn't that make your so called fact (something you made up while sweating in your basement) irrelevant?
Congratulations, your a casual noobish player that wants the game dumbed down because your not good at it. If you only play with your brother and cousin in pvm, my point is you can get a character editor and play on open with them.
No, instead people like you have to cry until an amazing game is dumbed down.
This thread has still yet to produce one decent reason how respecs will help the game, other then "its a good idea so I won't have to relevel a character I screwed up making." Guess what, if you screw your character up, you should have to deal with it and learn for the next time you make a character, not have an EZ WIN button.
People who oppose this crappy change are often accused of whining on various forums, when the only whiney support for this horrid change is "WAHHHHH I shouldn't have to level another character, I'm gonna have my mommy call Blizzard and yell at them for forcing me to play an unfair game."
Congratulations, your a casual noobish player that wants the game dumbed down because your not good at it. If you only play with your brother and cousin in pvm, my point is you can get a character editor and play on open with them.
No, instead people like you have to cry until an amazing game is dumbed down.
This thread has still yet to produce one decent reason how respecs will help the game, other then "its a good idea so I won't have to relevel a character I screwed up making." Guess what, if you screw your character up, you should have to deal with it and learn for the next time you make a character, not have an EZ WIN button.
People who oppose this crappy change are often accused of whining on various forums, when the only whiney support for this horrid change is "WAHHHHH I shouldn't have to level another character, I'm gonna have my mommy call Blizzard and yell at them for forcing me to play an unfair game."
Actually there have been plenty of reasons being outspoken for respeccing. Unfrotunately your closed mindedness is so intense that you are just blatantly dismissing them as excuses with condescending comments such as " oh your a newbish player that plays casually" every time someone posts a different opinion than yours.
It's basically like me taking all your reasons for not liking it and saying it's all bullshit and crybaby excuses and then asking you to give me a real reason. Obviously you don't like it and obviously you'll never see it the same way as them. Just give it up cause no matter how much you whine about it, it's going to happen. Blizzard have the power, not you, and they know better, not you.
You claim that D2 is an amazing game, for once I can agree with you. But think a little with your brain...Who do you think made it amazing? That's why when Blizzard decide to do something, you just go with it, until the day they get proven wrong, which certainly hasn't happened yet. So until then, when thye decide to "put that d*ck up your ass" (as a few haters put it) you just take it and say thank you. For the rest of us heterosexuals, i prefer to use the nice new puss* analogy, they feed it to us, just take it and say thank you.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Diablo 3, Hottest shit to happen to 21st Century Entertainment since Georges "Rush" St-Pierre.______________ --------~~Mattheo's Quote of the day~~---------
----------Brought to you by Diablofans.com Forums -------- Originally Posted by mattheo_majik
I LOVE being a SEX TON!!!
For me it could have raised alarm bells, but since Diablo 2 has been played for so long this change is actually welcome. It will be nice to actually try all the spells.
If it is done right I think it can work. If not, I think it could destroy the longevity of the games appeal.
If you can completely revamp your lvl 81 bowazon to a javazon in 5 minutes (excluding finding gear) i am not in favor. Another example of respec exploitation: you have a zeal paladin beat the game in normal, once you get high enough where hammers are good, you respec and switch to a hammerdin instantly maxing the skill. Now you magic find, but wait, you want to do ubers so you convert him to a smiter, then back to a hammerdin after you finish getting your torch. Half the fun of the game is working to 'earn' levelups, equipment, powerful attacks, and new skill selections. For example, when the game first came out and I played single player and used an editor giving myself tons of skills which made the game nearly pointless. The games lasting appeal is based on spending time in order to achieve a goal, and being rewarded when you get there.
My biggest concern is, despite the fact that you have to grind, is the lack of it. No one likes grinding, but it even after I've made 10s of 100s of characters over the years and leveled them respectively, I still feel a huge sense of satisfaction when I finally get the skill I have been working so hard for. More excitement comes as the skill increasing gets more powerful as I level; and finally as the skill and its syngeries become maxed, a great sense of accomplishment.
So in conclusion, I argue that despite the grind, we keep coming back, and it's what makes us keep coming back. Simple laws of life, the easier it is to get the less it is convented. That being said a respect system done correctly wont take away the satisfaction and will allow some forgiveness and greater experimentation.
If it is done right I think it can work. If not, I think it could destroy the longevity of the games appeal.
If you can completely revamp your lvl 81 bowazon to a javazon in 5 minutes (excluding finding gear) i am not in favor. Another example of respec exploitation, you have a zeal paladin to beat the game in normal, and once you get high enough where hammers are good enough you respec and switch to a hammerdin instantly maxing the skill and you now magic find, then wait you want to do ubers so you convert him to a smiter, then back to a hammerdin after you finish getting your torch. Half the fun of the game is working to 'earn' levelups, equipment, powerful attacks, and new skill selections. For example, when the game first came out and I played single player and used an editor giving myself tons of skills the game was nearly pointless. The games lasting appeal is based on spending time in order to achieve a goal, and being rewarded when you get there.
My biggest concern is, despite the fact that you have to grind, is the lack of it. Noone likes grinding but it even after we have made 10s of 100s of characters over the years and leveled them respectively, i still feel a huge sense of satisfaction when I finally get the skill I have been working so hard for, then excitement as it increasing gets more powerful; and finally as it and its syngeries become maxed, gratification.
So in conclusion, I argue that despite the grind, we keep coming back, and it's what makes us keep coming back. Simple laws of life, the easier it is to get the less it is convented. That being said a respect system done correctly wont take away the satisfaction and will allow some forgiveness and greater experimentation.
My thoughts EXACTLY!...minus a few spelling errors lol.
Overall im against it, but thats because i am very skeptical on its implementation.
I also agree completely with edwith. A respec system done well can allow you to fix mistakes and can give you some freedom to adjust the build to your playstyle, without letting you completely change your character to something else.
I'm also sceptical on it's implementation, and I'll be honest, it's because of the way it's implemented in WoW. If they implement the system that works in WoW (and yes, it does work in WoW, in fact that game is unplayable without respeccing) it would ruin Diablo.
But, on the other hand, Blizzard probably knows better than this. It's not that I don't trust them, it's that the possibility (however slight) of them messing it up is frightening.
And the fact that many people on this forum seem to be hoping for a system where it's easy and costs nothing to respec, or it costs the wrong thing, also makes me skeptical.
A respec system is respec. There is no -fix this only- or that. If it doesn't allow you to reuse all your points like you want, then why do you call it respec if it doesn't actually allow you to do this?
Assuming they go through with it (which still isn't sure), I seriously wouldn't expect anything else.
Well, you go through more characters more quickly in Diablo than other games, I find. A lot of this is because you make a type of build with a character and then find later you want to do a different build with the same character. If you could completely respec, I think it would be better on the servers because not as many characters would need to be made (and if they increase inventory stash still, that will lessen it a bit, too) and you would be able to make as many character builds on the same character as you want to on the same account without having to delete them. Also, being able to rebuild from the ground up would lessen the need for rushing, which means less "I rush u" and "rush me plz" games spamming the list and (I think) less server demand.
So, I think, hypothetically being able to respec all of your points would be in the best interest of Battle.net and its Diablo users.
But those "old people" who learnt to drive, get places faster and have more time to do the fun stuff.
D2 is a completely different game than D3. They can't accurately examine results from an introduction of respec'ing to D2 and expect similar results for D3 because the games' spells and mechanics will inevitably work differently. On the one hand, where D2's spells were designed to be used 2 or 3 at a time, D3's were designed with the intentions of the player focusing on around 6 according to the Class Panel at WWI (which has recently become unearthed again).
They won't have to murk around post-release if they do proper testing on their own first. They keep talking about failed experiments and how certain things just don't feel "Diablo", so they're obviously doing that pretty regularly. I don't see how changing a game that isn't the one they're trying to develop will benefit them greatly.
Not that I'm against respec'ing in Diablo 2. I'm as interested as the next guy, and I can't find any holes in it (although we don't have much info on it yet). I just don't want them to be doing what you're suggesting they are, screwing with a near-perfect, iconic game for the benefit of another years later.
Edit: And Hellgate always sucked.
They are giving D2 respecs because they believe it is a good thing, plain and simple. No need for that "testing" theory that came out of nowhere.
Hopefully next patch they give double skill points, when they still have people complaining they cant can't even make a good character with a respec.
Respecs are providing people with the means to fix mistakes without resorting to unsupported and possibly risky 3rd-party programs. This might reduce the number of people drawn to using hero editors.
I'm sure there will always be people who like to just overpower their character with hero editor, but that's never what I enjoyed using it for. I used it so I didn't have to spend time releveling a character because I hadn't researched all the skills/builds before playing him.
I understand that some people feel it's removing the challenge from the game, or shortening the game, and it probably is doing that. Maybe this just isn't a good way to make the game longer or more challenging to begin with.
I honestly didn't care that much if this feature was added for D2, but in D3 I'm guessing they plan on balancing the game around features like this, so you'll still be playing for a long time even if you can respec to try out different builds without rerolling.
They've stated they want to make dungeons feel worth exploring. I remember in D2 you mainly rushed through dungeons to hit the bosses because there was little worth finding except off them. I think that's a positive way to make the game experience longer. Make it so I want to explore every nook and cranny in a dungeon, because you never know what's around the corner.
Keep in mind, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion. I see where you're coming from... you're used to a certain system and it feels cheap to change it now. I'm fairly new to D2, really didn't start playing it until I heard about D3 a year or so ago, and I don't play it heavily.
The respec system I am talking about from Titan Quest has you buy back skill points one by one, and the cost increases with each point reclaimed. For example, let's say you realise you don't need Whirlwind for the build you are using. So you go to the re-spec vendor, and buy back a point in Whirlwind for 1000 gold (the starting number from TQ). The cost is now 2000, and you continue buying more. Overall, if you have, say, 8 points in Whirlwind, at a 200% increase per point bought, you will need to spend 255,000 gold (of course, TQ had a slightly gentler slope for respec cost increase, but you guys understand, right?).
I think the point I was trying to put across is including "respec" into D2 would always generate learnings for D3 (whether that is Bliz's primary motive is up for speculation).
As such, approach the upcoming D2 respec with an open mind and likely we will see benefit down the line.
If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
You don't understand, why would I want to level 3 sorceresses? FUUUUUUUUU Why?! Knowledge?! Diablo 2?!. You're taking this all to seriously. I usually just play with my brother and cousin in PVM and you're making out like it's someone's 401k. It's not that hard to understand. I don't like playing the same character out to high level multiple times, so this feature is nice, because I like all of the spells, and I should not have to level another character (however long that may take, even though the act alone is somewhat draining) just to go from shooting fire to shooting ice. You say it takes less then a week, but that would be with rushing and that just bores the hell out of me even more. "Congratulations, instead of being.. blah blah blah", like, really? REALLY? How is this a fact? Did you request a study by some University? Your argument doesn't make much sense when you say I'll be bored either way, whether it be rushing or changing the skills. If I'm gonna be bored no matter what, then doesn't that make your so called fact (something you made up while sweating in your basement) irrelevant?
Here is a slightly off-topic question though... does anyone know if they're going to integrate the new Battle.net 2.0 into Diablo II // Warcraft III?
-------------------------------------------
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
No they will not be adding D2 to the new battle.net system.
Congratulations, your a casual noobish player that wants the game dumbed down because your not good at it. If you only play with your brother and cousin in pvm, my point is you can get a character editor and play on open with them.
No, instead people like you have to cry until an amazing game is dumbed down.
This thread has still yet to produce one decent reason how respecs will help the game, other then "its a good idea so I won't have to relevel a character I screwed up making." Guess what, if you screw your character up, you should have to deal with it and learn for the next time you make a character, not have an EZ WIN button.
People who oppose this crappy change are often accused of whining on various forums, when the only whiney support for this horrid change is "WAHHHHH I shouldn't have to level another character, I'm gonna have my mommy call Blizzard and yell at them for forcing me to play an unfair game."
Actually there have been plenty of reasons being outspoken for respeccing. Unfrotunately your closed mindedness is so intense that you are just blatantly dismissing them as excuses with condescending comments such as " oh your a newbish player that plays casually" every time someone posts a different opinion than yours.
It's basically like me taking all your reasons for not liking it and saying it's all bullshit and crybaby excuses and then asking you to give me a real reason. Obviously you don't like it and obviously you'll never see it the same way as them. Just give it up cause no matter how much you whine about it, it's going to happen. Blizzard have the power, not you, and they know better, not you.
You claim that D2 is an amazing game, for once I can agree with you. But think a little with your brain...Who do you think made it amazing? That's why when Blizzard decide to do something, you just go with it, until the day they get proven wrong, which certainly hasn't happened yet. So until then, when thye decide to "put that d*ck up your ass" (as a few haters put it) you just take it and say thank you. For the rest of us heterosexuals, i prefer to use the nice new puss* analogy, they feed it to us, just take it and say thank you.
--------~~Mattheo's Quote of the day~~---------
----------Brought to you by Diablofans.com Forums --------
Originally Posted by mattheo_majik
I LOVE being a SEX TON!!!
:thumbsup: on re-spec option.
Is it gonna cost anything to respec?
If you can completely revamp your lvl 81 bowazon to a javazon in 5 minutes (excluding finding gear) i am not in favor. Another example of respec exploitation: you have a zeal paladin beat the game in normal, once you get high enough where hammers are good, you respec and switch to a hammerdin instantly maxing the skill. Now you magic find, but wait, you want to do ubers so you convert him to a smiter, then back to a hammerdin after you finish getting your torch. Half the fun of the game is working to 'earn' levelups, equipment, powerful attacks, and new skill selections. For example, when the game first came out and I played single player and used an editor giving myself tons of skills which made the game nearly pointless. The games lasting appeal is based on spending time in order to achieve a goal, and being rewarded when you get there.
My biggest concern is, despite the fact that you have to grind, is the lack of it. No one likes grinding, but it even after I've made 10s of 100s of characters over the years and leveled them respectively, I still feel a huge sense of satisfaction when I finally get the skill I have been working so hard for. More excitement comes as the skill increasing gets more powerful as I level; and finally as the skill and its syngeries become maxed, a great sense of accomplishment.
So in conclusion, I argue that despite the grind, we keep coming back, and it's what makes us keep coming back. Simple laws of life, the easier it is to get the less it is convented. That being said a respect system done correctly wont take away the satisfaction and will allow some forgiveness and greater experimentation.
My thoughts EXACTLY!...minus a few spelling errors lol.
Overall im against it, but thats because i am very skeptical on its implementation.
A respec system is respec. There is no -fix this only- or that. If it doesn't allow you to reuse all your points like you want, then why do you call it respec if it doesn't actually allow you to do this?
Assuming they go through with it (which still isn't sure), I seriously wouldn't expect anything else.
So, I think, hypothetically being able to respec all of your points would be in the best interest of Battle.net and its Diablo users.