And to the idiot posting above me try to read that he was arguing over my example that pro gaming wasn't counted as playing a game because the focus is to win and improve not to have fun. I play games to have fun but some people don't that was the point which he tried to dismiss with word definitions
It's not really playing then if you don't have fun. They are working. It is a job. The word definition clarifies that stance. It gives reason to the action which your attempt to dismiss does not. To me at the least games and playing them is about having fun. Apparently to others its about winning or improving and not fun at all. So then why do you wish to win or improve? What's the end goal behind such? Congrats if you are having fun then you are playing the game. A pro-gamer that plays and seeks to win or improve out of the sense of enjoyment such a thing gives them is doing so for fun. Can a competitive game be fun? Yes. But if you do it just to win because that's your job. Then you aren't really having fun or playing any more you are working.
Seriously I brought it up because Adon stated the point of a game is to win. I find such a statement to be false or at the very least misleading as one can still have fun and enjoy a game that you end up losing. That at the end of the day if you play a game the answer isn't whether you won or lost, but that you had fun. So I put it as simple as possible, which then apparently drew the ire of Zera because... I don't know. Is there a problem with the idea of games being about having fun? Shall we start a new topic in the PvP forum to discuss if PvPers like to have fun? Since apparently they don't like that being the real motivation behind playing a game.
This might be one of the most idiotic arguments I have ever heard.
Yet have it you are. In the statement I was arguing the reason behind an action. I backed it up with the definition and the reason why games exist. They didn't spring up because suddenly someone wanted to win. They came about because people enjoyed them, they had fun. As absolute as the idea of play = fun is I find it silly that you would try and reverse it that anything that is fun = play. That isn't my argument. It's that if you are playing a game, then you should be having fun. That is all frills cut away why you play the game.
but if playing a game to win and feel better than other people gives you satisfaction doesn't mean it's fun doing it.
So seriously what is fun then. Cause getting that warm fuzzy feeling of satisfaction certainly sounds like fun.
The reason I took this apparently idiotic stance of play games for fun is because the idea that you play only to win is wrong. You aren't playing just to win. You play to win cause that is how you get your fun, your enjoyment. The act brings you satisfaction. If you play a game and aren't having fun in doing it how long would you keep doing it? Unless its part of your job you'd likely walk away from the game as the realization you aren't having fun doing it anymore hits you.
Why do I find this pertinent? It shows the schism between some people. That they can't equate the reason as to why they're competitive and why they want to win. Then they look at other ways of playing with an upturned nose and a statement of how they're the 'real' whatever. I brought it up since I think it bridges this apparent gap between casuals and the hardcore. Maybe it's pointless to bring up, but it seems to have put a bug up someones butt that I'd argue the only real reason to 'play a game' is to have fun.
Good to see my little statement created such chaos ha.
I guess ill reword it now that I look back at it.
I play to win, winning is fun to me. Losing is only fun to me if it was a fair fight and I learned something that can help me fix my short commings and help me win, otherwise it is not fun. I don't play to be put in unfair situations and lose. I feel and have seen that this mentality is supported by the majority of players I have played/met.
For a pro gamer tie in, winning is fun for them, they get paid. If they lost, they find out why and how and better their odds next time. If they lose for no apparent reason or because it was an unfair fight, then it is definitely not fun.
And sure games might have originally been made up to have fun (in some cases to scam other people out of money) but that doesn't mean they don't have other valid aspects. So instead of you trying to argue over grammar with a guy that isn't english and have it as a second or third language perhaps you should focus on more apropriate topics where you might have a valid point (which you also made in some of your points as a side note).
I think part of the issue here is probably the language barrier. Why I agreed with the definition was because it pointed out a simple and easy enough reason why to partake in said action it explained my stance. Seriously though the reason people play is to have fun, to enjoy themselves. and get some sense of satisfaction. The individual weighs the pros and cons and unless some outside factor unrelated to the game steps in those not having enough fun stop playing a game. People that don't derive any enjoyment from a game don't play them. The fact people can have fun without winning a game supports the idea that you play to have fun. Is winning more fun? Sure sometimes. When you are under contract/employed you can have very different reasons to play (as in the act of participating) i.e. you are paid to do so. The reason any game exists and is bought though is because of the expectation that it will be fun and enjoyable. I'm not shitting on a professional, because they're doing their job. Though frankly they're no longer really 'playing' the game in the same sense that the rest of us are and the reason that the game is there for us in the first place.
I will use an example NecrosisBob. Do you think people who do a real life sport for a living, don't enjoy what they are doing ? Let's take football (or what americans call soccer). You don't become good, you practice and play a lot because you like it. Even more, it's because you love it and you are passionate enough to want to learn how to be better, and better and better. When they play a match, most of them like what they are doing, it isn't likely you become a football star if you didn't like PLAYING it on the first place.
Most good e-sport gamers are like that, and while they have responsabilities with their career, they enjoy the games. I smiled this weekend, when the 500cc bikes on Jerez, and watching Valentino Rossi smiling like a madman after the race. You know the guy "play" to win, you know the guy made a living out of it, but you also know the guy fucking love doing it.
One of the things people says is trashtalk from PvP'ers. I find it specially funny, because anybody who had done some real life sport competition knows there is also trashtalk and some mind games there too, most of them, we don't see it.
Honestly, I don't want to see the game turned into a sport. The excessive competition breads more people like Adon which create a negative environment. I'd prefer to breed a positive environment of players working together? What is so hard to understand about that?
Blizzard seems to be following that goal as well. They took away drop fighting, they implemented easy ways to jump into quests together, etc. There is no need to turn the game into a heavily competitive environment. You keep speaking like this competitive environment is good. I and many like me disagree. I believe it essentially educates people wrong as such a competitive community acts negative and it's just accepted as 'its just how it is'. That...is crap. Blizzard has an opportunity to create a more positive environment for gaming and I hope they choose a path that does just that.
Blizzard has stated on numerous occasions that the Diablo franchise is meant to be a co-op game that you can play solo if you choose. It is not, nor was it ever intended to be a pvp game. Griefing/ganking players in D2 does not constitute true pvp.
And D3 being an esport? That will never happen. For it to be one, the entire set of characters and their skills would have to be nearly perfectly balanced with each other.
Balance is no longer a viable argument. I'm SO TIRED OF HEARING IT IN EVERY THREAD. If you have a copy of WoW, Diablo 3, or for god's sake any other game on this earth, you have the exact same tools at your fingertips as your opponent. Yes there are different classes, yes there are different compositions to run, NO YOU ARE NOT FORCED TO RUN A CERTAIN CLASS OR COMPOSITION. IF SOMETHING IS UNBALANCED, OR OVERPOWERED, THEN OUTPLAY THE OTHER TEAM RUNNING THEIR EXACT SAME COMP. WHAT BETTER COUNTER THAN THAT IF THE ONLY REASON YOU CAN'T WIN IS "IMBALANCE."
Imbalance is just a word scrubs use when they lose. Yes, of course there are classes that are more powerful in certain situations. That is the fucking nature of this genre of game. THAT DOESN'T MEAN ALL COMPETITION SHOULD BE TRASHED. IT SIMPLY ADDS ANOTHER LAYER OF COMPETITION THAT IS FUCKING FUN AS BALLS TO TWEAK AND SUCCEED. It's more like CHESS than Checkers. For god's sake STFU ABOUT BALANCE IF YOU'RE TOO DAMN IGNORANT TO COMPREHEND IT'S MEANING.
FURTHERMORE Diablo 3 will have much a more FLUID skill system that will allow for tweak "on the fly," i.e. between arena matches, for example. Juxtaposition to WoW arena, this opens up an ENTIRELY NEW WORLD OF COUNTERS that simply can not be fully understood yet. In WoW there were X amout of "viable" talent builds, with x being VERY limited. In Diablo 3 I predict it will be much, much more versatile. Say you're playing a Mage against a Monk with Dashing Strike. You don't realize this at first, but after getting pummeled over and over with your oh-so-op teleport runed with wormhole (because dashing strike is essentially spam-able compared to teleport) you decide to counter this by switching out teleport with Frost Nova (for example) and pick up some more defense oriented abilities (say energy armor/diamond skin/teleport runed with safe passage etc.) because you know that thanks to Dashing Strike, you're simply going to take a lot of melee hits. The Monk counters this by picking up Serenity with Tranquility (to hopefully counter the Nova) and Breath of Heaven to provide more outlast potential because he can't simply spam his right mouse button and stay on the Mage's nuts indefinitely. And on and on it goes. This would only get more strategic with the addition of players to formulate teams. Most "retards" in this situation would just cry about how overpowered dashing strike is. And hell, it may well be (sure looks like it to me), but there are always options, especially in the insanely diverse amount of abilities that Diablo 3 is making available. The absolutist point would be to go roll a damn Monk if it's so overpowered. Don't sit there getting shit all over for weeks on your Mage bawling about how OP the Monk is. Or don't, I don't care, I just don't want to hear you bitching about balance when there's always an option available to you if you're willing to take it.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Thank you d0c, that is probably the most solid argument I have ever heard.
I'm gone for a couple of days and the thread goes out of control lol.
I want competitive PvP, because being competitive is fun to me. I don't think competitive PvP will affect the rest of the game at all. Thoes that want casual can still treat it as such.
Let's take a recap of the thread.
It started off as who thinks Diablo 3 should be an eSports? How it would effect it or nor. What exactly each side wanted. Then how it can or can't be, to why it should and why it shouldn't be an eSports. Then it broke even further down to casual verses competitive. Then whether or not competitive PvP was fun at all. All the way down ro the definition of fun. Then everything I between such as what features are competitive or not like multiple arena modes, rankings. Also the general sense of majorities versus minorities, and of corse the repeated statements of who's side Blizzard is on. So what have we all learned? That it is PvE'ers versus the PvP'ers and how they don't want PvP affecting PvE. Check. Casual versus competitive, they don't care if there is competitive features as long as it it still casual. Check. It won't be an eSports if there isn't a large fan base and funding. Check. Did I miss anything?
The point is that the people who designed and produced the game said, in no uncertain terms, that Diablo 3 is meant to be a co-op game to be enjoyed with friends and other players online but also to be a valid single-player game if that's how you want to play. There will never be a definitive focus on pvp, and certainly not become an eSport. Certain games lend themselves to becoming an eSport, Diablo 3 isn't one of them.
You still didn't get it. People will take it competitively just for having PvP (that doesn't mean it will be an e-sport), like it also will happen with PvM. There's nothing wrong with being a competitive player, and that about "breeding", i am sorry, i don't follow, you are not exactly an example of tolerance or positiveness while treating with other gamers but i certainly don't care about what kind of gamer you are or how you were bred (i am above that crap). There are a lot of competitive players who are great people, fun to play with. There are also morons, like for everything on earth. But probably the reason you don't enjoy to hang out with them, play with them, is because you are different and enjoy the game on a different way, and you are unable to empathyse with them. That doesn't make your way the right, or the more positive for everybody. That's why you sound just like a selfrighteouss defender, because you limit people experiences to your experience.
What you posted here is an example. I was talking about a different subject (how people enjoy their games, and pro-players enjoy the game aswell, on their own way, and they are even more passionate than the average joe), and yet you come up with your competitive only brings jerks gospell and blizzard is listening your prayers. Give it a rest already.
Can you honestly tell me that people what react like some of these competitive PvP players do (with insults, harassment, etc) are good for the community as a whole? I don't know many people that would say that they were. Sure, some of those that want eSports or competitive play are able to give good arguments and talk it out... but even they seem to resort to calling people carebears or noobs when people don't agree with them. It's not just been my experiences either. A couple of these people have essentially become known forum trolls on this site.
Many post, information and discoveries about the game, are made by people who play the game extensively and competitively. That people which test builds, game mechanichs, etc etc... so you can one day say, ok i need some information about X, you go to inet and find a really well written post explaining you how it works and what it entails. Or you find an awesome post with something you didn't ever think. Do you think a casual player wrote it ? What do you think casual people give to the community ? In the very first place, the community is mostly made by hardcore and competitive players because they care enough about the game, while most casual gamers rarely contribute or even post on forums. There are lot more casuals, but most of them, aren't really part of the community.
And that ussually benefit us as gamers because more quality content comes due people who are willing to explore better the games. By the way, you are the counterpart, you are actually coming to a PvP forum, and calling competitive pvp players morons. What makes you think you are actually better ?
I don't like people who insults, but i can deal with it if my gaming experience is good, because well, this is internet, overreacting at insults is as pathetic as insulting on the first place. But most competitive pvp'ers don't act like little spoiled brats like you want to think.
You kind of dodge the question. Seems even you don't like the community that those hyper competitive players create. Sure, some people are well written and actually contribute, but honestly...could you see some of those complaining here about eSports actually being a good contribution to the community?
I'm not against players that play the game excessively to learn ever part of it completely. That's different then someone that is so competitive that they look at everyone else as if they are lower people and should just shut up. It is this heavily competitive environment that I would rather not support. Sure, I can ignore it...but when did ignoring a problem make it go away? If it means giving up private PvP games to have a better overall community, I'm personally for that and I believe many others are as well.
Ideally I'd like to find a way that competitive players can play the game alongside non~competitive without such negativity, honestly though I don't know how.
Well, how do you think thoes people should react when you call them minority and their viewpoint does not matter because of that? Have you ever considered that you might be the source of a lot of negativity in this section of the forum? If you truly believe that when you join a co-op game with random people, someone will not call you a noob when you will slow him down, then you are very much mistaken. People are people, and it doesn't matter if the game supports eSport or not. If you can't stand people, you should not play multiplayer games.
Have I said the PvP viewpoint doesn't matter? I believe I've actually been asking the PvP people to assist in finding a middle ground, actually. You continue to really sidestep the questions...why?
No, I don't expect every player to be decent. However, I know from experience that highly competitive environments actually cause that kind of negative behavior in people. I don't want to support such an environment. I cannot just ignore it and pretend it went away, because it is not going to. I cannot just push those people to private games and let them flourish there either, because it doesn't solve anything.
So, while I like the idea of having private Arena as an option...I am against the community it would create. If a solution could be found that would stop such a negative community from happening, I would support private Arena completely.
Edit: To stay on topic... no, I do not want to see eSport~level play. I feel that it represent a community that doesn't play well with others. As Diablo 3's primary focus is co~op play, I feel that adding features for such a community would be a poor use of resources that could be better spent improving the co~op play as well as team Arenas.
No, you said competitive PvP players have no place in diablo 3 many times. If your question is about what people interested in eSport bring to the community, then Conax one post above mine gave you an answer. I don't see any more questions in that post.
No, I stated that I don't want highly competitive PLAY in Diablo 3. Blizzard has stated that they don't want it in their game either. So, obviously I'm not alone in the issue if the game DEVELOPER doesn't want their game being focused on competitive play. My question was this...Do you want to encourage a community that cannot interact with the rest of the community in a positive manner? Do you want such a negative community to flourish? I sure don't.
How exactly does it cause negative behavior? Why do you think that competitive environment is the cause of negativity and not the very nature of certain people? And what solution do you expect exactly. Because when thoes people will play in private games where you would never play with them, your problem should be solved right there. On the other hand if thoes competitive players are restricted to random games with you, how is that any solution for you? They will not stop playing competitively every single of their matches just because there is no ladder.
Yes, I believe that the highly competitive nature of eSport~level play actually does CAUSE the issue we see in that community. How? By encouraging young kids that such behavior is acceptable. Young games join such games with this idea that playing a game for a living would be awesome. The community instills this notion that being the best is the only option and walking on others to get there is perfectly acceptable. It doesn't even have to be kids for such a community to affect either as I've seen older players become more hostile due to the nature of competitive gaming.
There is no way to fix people through implementing or restricting game mechanics. Sorry.
Well, then perhaps private Arena is a bad idea. It is a kind of nuclear option, but perhaps it is just the only way to keep such a negative community from taking hold. With the rest of the game focused more on co~op play, perhaps we can see a more positive gaming community spring up around Diablo 3.
Edit: Honestly, I think the purpose of this thread is pretty much done though. Blizzard has stated that they will not support eSports officially and any private eSports depends on them implementing features that may or may not get implemented. So the current verdict is no supported eSports, period. Maybe private eSports if Blizzard chooses to allow them (which I personally hope not after giving it some thought).
I didn't dodge your question, i actually answered it, telling you what competitive and hardcore gamers bring to the table on a positive manner while also comparing to casual gamers, so also did Conax, and yet you freaking ignore me and tell me i dodged your question, you sure are quite a positive person who never piss off people =/. And yet you don't understand why custom games would actually create a protection barrier for you against the hordes of "negative" pvp'ers which WILL populate the game at PvP release and you will get paired with/against them randomly. And even if you tell them "blizzard doesn't care about balance" they will whine, do you know why ? because everyone is entlited to their opinion, and if they think blizzard should give a crap about the pvp, they have their right to tell them.
Seriously at this point i don't know if you are serious... or trolling.
I didn't ask what they brought to the table. I specifically asked.. do you want the negativity generated by the competitive PvP crowd brought into the Diablo 3 community. So, yes.. you did dodge the question. Your statement about what they bring to the table isn't the case either for the majority of those competitive PvP players as its quite the minority that actually write up well written community support documents. In addition to that, non~competitive but hardcore players also contribute and equal or greater amount to the community as they tend to have a mindset that promotes sharing of information.
I don't want to erect a barrier and let the negativity sit and flourish. Pushing a something to the side doesn't stop it from having an impact on the community. So, no.. private Arenas wouldn't solve anything but to give the negative environment a permanent home in the community. How is that a good thing?
As for PvP players having the right to complain to Blizzard, sure..they have the right to their opinion. However, when Blizzard outright says "No, we're not doing that. Period", they get hostile and lash out at others that try to explain why. This isn't creative criticism anymore, its outright insulting Blizzard and people that agree with them. Again, why would I want to support such a negative community?
When the PvP comes out the the communities focus is going to turn towards it. It will stay that way till they release more PvE content. Then it will slowly go back to PvP. You don't think all those players will not want more PvP features whether they are casual or not? Of corse they will everyone will want some sort of control about how the play the game. And restricting such a major thing as PvP will only make the community mad.
When the PvP comes out the the communities focus is going to turn towards it. It will stay that way till they release more PvE content. Then it will slowly go back to PvP. You don't think all those players will not want more PvP features whether they are casual or not? Of corse they will everyone will want some sort of control about how the play the game. And restricting such a major thing as PvP will only make the community mad.
The focus isn't going to turn to PvP. At least not for a lot of us. The PvM content isn't suddenly going to be boring withing a few months. It'll take at least six months before the majority of players are able to farm Inferno, it not longer. PvP won't even be a part of the game for a few months after release most likely. How can you honestly think that PvP will become a primary focus for any reasonable amount of time?
As for restricting PvP, Blizzard has already stated that they will be restricting PvP. I don't think how anyone can expect different when the developers have already stated its the way things are.
Ecutriun your main focus is on the negativity which competition brings, which is kind of natural and doesn't matter because it's human behaviour, you can't fix it with in-game mechanichs, and happens on PvP and on Coops (you will see it when people is complaining about having to leave because leechers, bad teams, saying why can't they find a decent group for inferno because random sucks, people will tell to get friends or gtfo, etc etc).
I pointed you what competition brings to the table, so you can empathyse with the people who actually enjoy gaming that way. That doesn't make them morons, that doesn't make anything flourish, people is people, and people who aren't competitive can be exactly the same douche on a different way, yet they bring way less to the table to the community.
Blizzard didn't speak about bad community issues (harassment , etc), they had spoken about players who may ask them for stuff they are not pretending to fulfill, like pvp balance, not because they think pvp community is bad, but because the feedback from pvp'ers normally tend to try to force them to balance the game only for PvP and they want to keep it coop. They avoid it excluding ladders from the game, because that way people can't track on what setups, builds or classes are on top, so the feedback about pvp balance can be more easilly dismissed.
Your points about competitive gamers breeding bad people, are obnoxious, ignorant, disgusting and insulting.
You ignored the question...again.
Anyways, yes, I've been focusing on the negativity that a highly competitive environment breeds. I stand by my points on a highly competitive environment breeding a negative environment and instilling said negativity onto others. They aren't ignorant, or obnoxious and you cannot tell me that my points don't have validity. I won't say that everyone that is competitive is negative. However, overall, my experience with the heavy competitive environments has shown me that such environments tend to encourage people to be negative and harsh. My experience isn't minor either, I've played many many PvP focused games over time.
Sure, the negative people will exist in co~op as well, however, co~op is not an environment that ENCOURAGES negative behavior. Competitive PvP is an environment that tends to encourage people to behave in a negative manner and as such would (in my opinion) be a negative influence on the community.
Well you avoided my question too, wich is, do you think that people are going to want more PvP features when it comes out? Whether or not the players are casual players or competitive, the will want more. Second question, (more of a statement), you want to control how you play the game and so does everyone else. That's why I'm posting and why you are posting and everyone on the middle.
This is obviously my opion so you don't have to comment on it. Also when the PvP come out the main focus of people is going to be interested in PvP. People are not going to have it for at least 8 months (wich is two months after the predicted inferno completion) if not longer. Whether or not people are tired of the PvE content they will flock to the PvP when it comes out because it is fresh and new. I also assume that the majority of the players to on to the forums and decide what side the are on. So the "majority" of players will be blindly asking for PvP features and visa versa with the "minority". Nobody can predict what millions of people are going to want.
Also when people can play and COMMUNICATE with each other there will always be negative environments. The only way to avoid that would be to play by yourself or Blizzard takes out the communication between players, wich they can't. Even if your on the same side it is still player versus player unless the game has no challenge at all. In hardcore you are not going to run with someone that could get you killed. And seeing that you can't die in the arena the PvE will probably breed way more negative environments than PvP, even more so since the "majority" playes PvE.
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It's not really playing then if you don't have fun. They are working. It is a job. The word definition clarifies that stance. It gives reason to the action which your attempt to dismiss does not. To me at the least games and playing them is about having fun. Apparently to others its about winning or improving and not fun at all. So then why do you wish to win or improve? What's the end goal behind such? Congrats if you are having fun then you are playing the game. A pro-gamer that plays and seeks to win or improve out of the sense of enjoyment such a thing gives them is doing so for fun. Can a competitive game be fun? Yes. But if you do it just to win because that's your job. Then you aren't really having fun or playing any more you are working.
Seriously I brought it up because Adon stated the point of a game is to win. I find such a statement to be false or at the very least misleading as one can still have fun and enjoy a game that you end up losing. That at the end of the day if you play a game the answer isn't whether you won or lost, but that you had fun. So I put it as simple as possible, which then apparently drew the ire of Zera because... I don't know. Is there a problem with the idea of games being about having fun? Shall we start a new topic in the PvP forum to discuss if PvPers like to have fun? Since apparently they don't like that being the real motivation behind playing a game.
So seriously what is fun then. Cause getting that warm fuzzy feeling of satisfaction certainly sounds like fun.
The reason I took this apparently idiotic stance of play games for fun is because the idea that you play only to win is wrong. You aren't playing just to win. You play to win cause that is how you get your fun, your enjoyment. The act brings you satisfaction. If you play a game and aren't having fun in doing it how long would you keep doing it? Unless its part of your job you'd likely walk away from the game as the realization you aren't having fun doing it anymore hits you.
Why do I find this pertinent? It shows the schism between some people. That they can't equate the reason as to why they're competitive and why they want to win. Then they look at other ways of playing with an upturned nose and a statement of how they're the 'real' whatever. I brought it up since I think it bridges this apparent gap between casuals and the hardcore. Maybe it's pointless to bring up, but it seems to have put a bug up someones butt that I'd argue the only real reason to 'play a game' is to have fun.
I guess ill reword it now that I look back at it.
I play to win, winning is fun to me. Losing is only fun to me if it was a fair fight and I learned something that can help me fix my short commings and help me win, otherwise it is not fun. I don't play to be put in unfair situations and lose. I feel and have seen that this mentality is supported by the majority of players I have played/met.
For a pro gamer tie in, winning is fun for them, they get paid. If they lost, they find out why and how and better their odds next time. If they lose for no apparent reason or because it was an unfair fight, then it is definitely not fun.
Didn't read the rest of the thread, just throwing my opinion in, in case anyone is keeping tabs on how many people seem to be for or against.
Honestly, I don't want to see the game turned into a sport. The excessive competition breads more people like Adon which create a negative environment. I'd prefer to breed a positive environment of players working together? What is so hard to understand about that?
Blizzard seems to be following that goal as well. They took away drop fighting, they implemented easy ways to jump into quests together, etc. There is no need to turn the game into a heavily competitive environment. You keep speaking like this competitive environment is good. I and many like me disagree. I believe it essentially educates people wrong as such a competitive community acts negative and it's just accepted as 'its just how it is'. That...is crap. Blizzard has an opportunity to create a more positive environment for gaming and I hope they choose a path that does just that.
And D3 being an esport? That will never happen. For it to be one, the entire set of characters and their skills would have to be nearly perfectly balanced with each other.
Imbalance is just a word scrubs use when they lose. Yes, of course there are classes that are more powerful in certain situations. That is the fucking nature of this genre of game. THAT DOESN'T MEAN ALL COMPETITION SHOULD BE TRASHED. IT SIMPLY ADDS ANOTHER LAYER OF COMPETITION THAT IS FUCKING FUN AS BALLS TO TWEAK AND SUCCEED. It's more like CHESS than Checkers. For god's sake STFU ABOUT BALANCE IF YOU'RE TOO DAMN IGNORANT TO COMPREHEND IT'S MEANING.
FURTHERMORE Diablo 3 will have much a more FLUID skill system that will allow for tweak "on the fly," i.e. between arena matches, for example. Juxtaposition to WoW arena, this opens up an ENTIRELY NEW WORLD OF COUNTERS that simply can not be fully understood yet. In WoW there were X amout of "viable" talent builds, with x being VERY limited. In Diablo 3 I predict it will be much, much more versatile. Say you're playing a Mage against a Monk with Dashing Strike. You don't realize this at first, but after getting pummeled over and over with your oh-so-op teleport runed with wormhole (because dashing strike is essentially spam-able compared to teleport) you decide to counter this by switching out teleport with Frost Nova (for example) and pick up some more defense oriented abilities (say energy armor/diamond skin/teleport runed with safe passage etc.) because you know that thanks to Dashing Strike, you're simply going to take a lot of melee hits. The Monk counters this by picking up Serenity with Tranquility (to hopefully counter the Nova) and Breath of Heaven to provide more outlast potential because he can't simply spam his right mouse button and stay on the Mage's nuts indefinitely. And on and on it goes. This would only get more strategic with the addition of players to formulate teams. Most "retards" in this situation would just cry about how overpowered dashing strike is. And hell, it may well be (sure looks like it to me), but there are always options, especially in the insanely diverse amount of abilities that Diablo 3 is making available. The absolutist point would be to go roll a damn Monk if it's so overpowered. Don't sit there getting shit all over for weeks on your Mage bawling about how OP the Monk is. Or don't, I don't care, I just don't want to hear you bitching about balance when there's always an option available to you if you're willing to take it.
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I'm gone for a couple of days and the thread goes out of control lol.
I want competitive PvP, because being competitive is fun to me. I don't think competitive PvP will affect the rest of the game at all. Thoes that want casual can still treat it as such.
Let's take a recap of the thread.
It started off as who thinks Diablo 3 should be an eSports? How it would effect it or nor. What exactly each side wanted. Then how it can or can't be, to why it should and why it shouldn't be an eSports. Then it broke even further down to casual verses competitive. Then whether or not competitive PvP was fun at all. All the way down ro the definition of fun. Then everything I between such as what features are competitive or not like multiple arena modes, rankings. Also the general sense of majorities versus minorities, and of corse the repeated statements of who's side Blizzard is on. So what have we all learned? That it is PvE'ers versus the PvP'ers and how they don't want PvP affecting PvE. Check. Casual versus competitive, they don't care if there is competitive features as long as it it still casual. Check. It won't be an eSports if there isn't a large fan base and funding. Check. Did I miss anything?
Can you honestly tell me that people what react like some of these competitive PvP players do (with insults, harassment, etc) are good for the community as a whole? I don't know many people that would say that they were. Sure, some of those that want eSports or competitive play are able to give good arguments and talk it out... but even they seem to resort to calling people carebears or noobs when people don't agree with them. It's not just been my experiences either. A couple of these people have essentially become known forum trolls on this site.
You kind of dodge the question. Seems even you don't like the community that those hyper competitive players create. Sure, some people are well written and actually contribute, but honestly...could you see some of those complaining here about eSports actually being a good contribution to the community?
I'm not against players that play the game excessively to learn ever part of it completely. That's different then someone that is so competitive that they look at everyone else as if they are lower people and should just shut up. It is this heavily competitive environment that I would rather not support. Sure, I can ignore it...but when did ignoring a problem make it go away? If it means giving up private PvP games to have a better overall community, I'm personally for that and I believe many others are as well.
Ideally I'd like to find a way that competitive players can play the game alongside non~competitive without such negativity, honestly though I don't know how.
Have I said the PvP viewpoint doesn't matter? I believe I've actually been asking the PvP people to assist in finding a middle ground, actually. You continue to really sidestep the questions...why?
No, I don't expect every player to be decent. However, I know from experience that highly competitive environments actually cause that kind of negative behavior in people. I don't want to support such an environment. I cannot just ignore it and pretend it went away, because it is not going to. I cannot just push those people to private games and let them flourish there either, because it doesn't solve anything.
So, while I like the idea of having private Arena as an option...I am against the community it would create. If a solution could be found that would stop such a negative community from happening, I would support private Arena completely.
Edit: To stay on topic... no, I do not want to see eSport~level play. I feel that it represent a community that doesn't play well with others. As Diablo 3's primary focus is co~op play, I feel that adding features for such a community would be a poor use of resources that could be better spent improving the co~op play as well as team Arenas.
No, I stated that I don't want highly competitive PLAY in Diablo 3. Blizzard has stated that they don't want it in their game either. So, obviously I'm not alone in the issue if the game DEVELOPER doesn't want their game being focused on competitive play. My question was this...Do you want to encourage a community that cannot interact with the rest of the community in a positive manner? Do you want such a negative community to flourish? I sure don't.
Yes, I believe that the highly competitive nature of eSport~level play actually does CAUSE the issue we see in that community. How? By encouraging young kids that such behavior is acceptable. Young games join such games with this idea that playing a game for a living would be awesome. The community instills this notion that being the best is the only option and walking on others to get there is perfectly acceptable. It doesn't even have to be kids for such a community to affect either as I've seen older players become more hostile due to the nature of competitive gaming.
Well, then perhaps private Arena is a bad idea. It is a kind of nuclear option, but perhaps it is just the only way to keep such a negative community from taking hold. With the rest of the game focused more on co~op play, perhaps we can see a more positive gaming community spring up around Diablo 3.
Edit: Honestly, I think the purpose of this thread is pretty much done though. Blizzard has stated that they will not support eSports officially and any private eSports depends on them implementing features that may or may not get implemented. So the current verdict is no supported eSports, period. Maybe private eSports if Blizzard chooses to allow them (which I personally hope not after giving it some thought).
I didn't ask what they brought to the table. I specifically asked.. do you want the negativity generated by the competitive PvP crowd brought into the Diablo 3 community. So, yes.. you did dodge the question. Your statement about what they bring to the table isn't the case either for the majority of those competitive PvP players as its quite the minority that actually write up well written community support documents. In addition to that, non~competitive but hardcore players also contribute and equal or greater amount to the community as they tend to have a mindset that promotes sharing of information.
I don't want to erect a barrier and let the negativity sit and flourish. Pushing a something to the side doesn't stop it from having an impact on the community. So, no.. private Arenas wouldn't solve anything but to give the negative environment a permanent home in the community. How is that a good thing?
As for PvP players having the right to complain to Blizzard, sure..they have the right to their opinion. However, when Blizzard outright says "No, we're not doing that. Period", they get hostile and lash out at others that try to explain why. This isn't creative criticism anymore, its outright insulting Blizzard and people that agree with them. Again, why would I want to support such a negative community?
The focus isn't going to turn to PvP. At least not for a lot of us. The PvM content isn't suddenly going to be boring withing a few months. It'll take at least six months before the majority of players are able to farm Inferno, it not longer. PvP won't even be a part of the game for a few months after release most likely. How can you honestly think that PvP will become a primary focus for any reasonable amount of time?
As for restricting PvP, Blizzard has already stated that they will be restricting PvP. I don't think how anyone can expect different when the developers have already stated its the way things are.
You ignored the question...again.
Anyways, yes, I've been focusing on the negativity that a highly competitive environment breeds. I stand by my points on a highly competitive environment breeding a negative environment and instilling said negativity onto others. They aren't ignorant, or obnoxious and you cannot tell me that my points don't have validity. I won't say that everyone that is competitive is negative. However, overall, my experience with the heavy competitive environments has shown me that such environments tend to encourage people to be negative and harsh. My experience isn't minor either, I've played many many PvP focused games over time.
Sure, the negative people will exist in co~op as well, however, co~op is not an environment that ENCOURAGES negative behavior. Competitive PvP is an environment that tends to encourage people to behave in a negative manner and as such would (in my opinion) be a negative influence on the community.
This is obviously my opion so you don't have to comment on it. Also when the PvP come out the main focus of people is going to be interested in PvP. People are not going to have it for at least 8 months (wich is two months after the predicted inferno completion) if not longer. Whether or not people are tired of the PvE content they will flock to the PvP when it comes out because it is fresh and new. I also assume that the majority of the players to on to the forums and decide what side the are on. So the "majority" of players will be blindly asking for PvP features and visa versa with the "minority". Nobody can predict what millions of people are going to want.
Also when people can play and COMMUNICATE with each other there will always be negative environments. The only way to avoid that would be to play by yourself or Blizzard takes out the communication between players, wich they can't. Even if your on the same side it is still player versus player unless the game has no challenge at all. In hardcore you are not going to run with someone that could get you killed. And seeing that you can't die in the arena the PvE will probably breed way more negative environments than PvP, even more so since the "majority" playes PvE.