Also, Diablo III will never be taken seriously as a cometitive game.
1. It's a top down, single unit control, click to move game. This setup has some strengths but its not optimal for dueling or versus. People who are serious about player versus player are going to gravitate toward FPS, RTS, and other setups. So put design focus on something your game can't possibly be best at?
2. Dueling viability is not determined solely by skill (like in most competition games) but is instead largely determined by gear.
3. The gear in point 2, drops based on luck. So your dueling capability is also determined largely by the luck of the drop.
4. Even worse, you can buy the gear with real money. So you have a supposedly serious competition game, where the deciding factors largely money and luck. Does anyone see the inherent problem?
Diablo from the control scheme on up is designed to be a one versus many, or co-op, PvM hack and slash. It can not, and will not, be an esport. And Blizzard does have games built from the ground up for the purpose of esport. Starcraft series has always been a major player in esport. Diablo has always been the king of hack and slash pvm. Why jump product category with Diablo, to compete in a market segment that you already have covered?
Also for those people who dont believe it can be done, Path of Exiles gives you more storage space, will have PvP at launch, dueling, etc, will have EVERYTHING d3 has, plus way more customization in character build, way more itemization. Oh, and ITS FUCKING FREE. FREE. FREE. FREE. FREE. FREE. FREE. FREE.
And they did it living off scraps, and their studio is 18 people, lots of those have been recent hires.
Everyone puts blizzard on a pedestal, why? I'll never understand. Because they made you great games? So? Companies that have nothing, and start with nothing make games of equal quality if not better? They do so with so few resources in comparison to blizzard it's disgusting.
expect more from the companies you support. You think its right to launch d3 without PvP? That's a fucking joke, who the fuck releases a game without all its features? That's laughable, and coming from a company that has succeeded and thrived off PvPers forever? A slap to the fucking face is what that is.
My whole original point, that people take out of context is that... pvp is as much a part of blizzard as pve, saying pvp is the minority and fucks up balance for pvp is either 100% ignorance or 100% troll.
Could blizzard make d3 and eSport? yes.
Do they want to? no.
Do i care it's not going to be an eSport? no.
Do i care blizzard thinks it's cool to release a game without pvp after we've been waiting an eternity for it? When one of your competitors is not only going to have pvp in their beta, but at launch, and its f2p? No. It's not acceptable. Anyone who thinks it's acceptable has lowered their standards, or just had piss poor standards to begin with.
That is all.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Also, Diablo III will never be taken seriously as a cometitive game.
1. It's a top down, single unit control, click to move game. This setup has some strengths but its not optimal for dueling or versus. People who are serious about player versus player are going to gravitate toward FPS, RTS, and other setups. So put design focus on something your game can't possibly be best at?
2. Dueling viability is not determined solely by skill (like in most competition games) but is instead largely determined by gear.
3. The gear in point 2, drops based on luck. So your dueling capability is also determined largely by the luck of the drop.
4. Even worse, you can buy the gear with real money. So you have a supposedly serious competition game, where the deciding factors largely money and luck. Does anyone see the inherent problem?
Diablo from the control scheme on up is designed to be a one versus many, or co-op, PvM hack and slash. It can not, and will not, be an esport. And Blizzard does have games built from the ground up for the purpose of esport. Starcraft series has always been a major player in esport. Diablo has always been the king of hack and slash pvm. Why jump product category with Diablo, to compete in a market segment that you already have covered?
1. the MOBA genre would like to have a word with you, especially LoL which is F2P and has rocked the eSports scene. It is a top down, single unit control. Even tho it had to buy it's way on the eSport scene, it makes so much fucking money it can continue to do so. Also you know, DotA, DotA2, HoN, and soon Blizz Dota
2. Take gear out of the equation, take the GW2 Balance approach. When you PvP, everyone has the same stats, only skill prevails.
3. Look at 2,
4. Look at 2.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
This is for arena discussion, nothing to do with dueling.
It's how you balance for pvp? I'm sorry you dont understand simple logic.
If you want to balance PvP you eliminate things that cause the imbalance.
if Gear is no longer a factor, Introduce PSR and MMR.
grats, you now fight opponents solely based on skill. Gear is not an issue. These are steps you take for balance.
The gear you earn in DotA, or the gear you earn in CS, is a direct result of you, and your teams performance in the game. You do not start with a gear advantage, this causes balance issues.
If you hit 10% harder than me? how is this a fair fight? If we both hit as hard, then it comes down to skill, and build. I should never lose to you in a PvP match because you spent IRL money on god tier items. This is not balanced PvP.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
^ how you make it an eSport, like I said earlier...
Could blizzard make d3 and eSport? yes.
Do they want to? no.
Do i care it's not going to be an eSport? no.
Do i care blizzard thinks it's cool to release a game without pvp after we've been waiting an eternity for it? When one of your competitors is not only going to have pvp in their beta, but at launch, and its f2p? No.
It's not acceptable. Anyone who thinks it's acceptable has lowered their standards, or just had piss poor standards to begin with.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
This is for arena discussion, nothing to do with dueling.
It's how you balance for pvp? I'm sorry you dont understand simple logic.
If you want to balance PvP you eliminate things that cause the imbalance.
if Gear is no longer a factor, Introduce PSR and MMR.
grats, you now fight opponents solely based on skill. Gear is not an issue. These are steps you take for balance.
The gear you earn in DotA, or the gear you earn in CS, is a direct result of you, and your teams performance in the game. You do not start with a gear advantage, this causes balance issues.
If you hit 10% harder than me? how is this a fair fight? If we both hit as hard, then it comes down to skill, and build. I should never lose to you in a PvP match because you spent IRL money on god tier items. This is not balanced PvP.
I aggree that it is what you would have to do to balance it. But there are problems. The gear is part of your build. Your skills and playstyle are largely supported by specific equipment decisions. So you are taking a lot of depth out of the game when gear is decided based on what is available within a match.
I'm pretty certain that like all things, PvP was major and THE thing to do only to the people that enjoyed it. It's not about PvPers being the 'in' club and everyone that doesn't like PvP is just some casual player. PvP was a horrendously imbalanced and unsupported aspect of Diablo 1 and 2 other than that you COULD kill people. The continual pretense that it should be a major part of Diablo 3 will never cease to baffle me, and I'd be just as happy with Diablo 3, as I have been with Diablo 1 and 2 if it was never added at all.
Us "PvPers" aren't expecting BALANCE, we want more FREEDOM that was taken away from us (FREEDOM that we had in D2, and no not everyone's experience of PvP consisted of random public games). Since they took away the FREEDOM and tried to control PvP, they need to add certain FEATURES and OPTIONS and CUSTOMIZATION to make it right again. We want to be able to make custom PvP matches, even if that consists of battling it out in "blood moor" instead of a damn arena. The ability to fight as parties vs parties.
Right now pvp is limited to some bullshit 2v2 kill until your run out of lives crap, with no way to directly face another party (your friends) since in battle.net 2.0 social aspects have been removed from the game.
No more iron mans (and other classic fun games)
No more joining a random pub game clearing it out and having fun.
No more guild/friend/clan/random battles of 4v4 in a GM style setting.
No more challenging specific people to duels.
No more killing bots in public games (they will come in time).
Some things that could definitely be added to be an IMPROVEMENT over D2. (Very wishful thinking).
Obviously PvP games that consist of 6-12 people, we don't care if it is too chaotic and you can't tell who everyone is, but let it be an option, let us figure it out, let us make the choice if it is "too chaotic."
Statistics - Stuff like kills - damage, burst damage - most kills in a row stuff would be neat. Public/Private, people who are good can obviously show off, people who are bad just mind their own business, no harm done.
Edit, and for everyone who thinks we are trying to turn the damn game into an "ESPORT" you are full of shit whiners, pretty much every game on the market - even runescape - has better PvP than what is currently incorporated into D3, and don't deflect by telling us to "PLAY A DIFFERENT GAME" for something so fundamentally simple that needs to be in the game.
December, 2012 Headline:
"Blizzard fights angry PvPers by telling them to go play LoL."
I wanted to quote this post so that more people see it.
I basically agree with this person.
I am someone who enjoys the PvP aspects of games more so than the PvM aspect. This is the reason I play HoN and Dota 2. I love the Diablo series and I would say D2 is my favorite game of all time.
I am not asking for a game that is balanced as an eSport. I am asking for more freedom to play the game how I want to play it.
We want custom games
We want dueling
We want MUTUAL hostility
We want some kind of ranking or ladder for the arena system(we understand the game isn't balanced for PvP)
All of this stuff except the last was in Diablo 2. This stuff has been taken away from us and our ways of creating PvP content for ourselves is gone(ex: Iron man)
The arena system, while I think its an awesome addition to the game, pigeon holes us into a specific PvP style. Without proper tools we won't be able to play the game how WE want to play.
Random occurrences of PvP were always my favorite. Someone going hostile with you in a random game, you accept the challenge and smash it out with them.
What about the uneven matches. Going 3 on 1, 4 on 2, 3 on 2, etc... We can't do this.
This has been taken away and it makes me sad that this is the direction Blizzard is taking the game in.
I just hope I am wrong and that Blizzard is going to implement some of the things we want. Number 1 being custom games.
I wanted to quote this post so that more people see it.
I basically agree with this person.
I am someone who enjoys the PvP aspects of games more so than the PvM aspect. This is the reason I play HoN and Dota 2. I love the Diablo series and I would say D2 is my favorite game of all time.
I am not asking for a game that is balanced as an eSport. I am asking for more freedom to play the game how I want to play it.
We want custom games
We want dueling
We want MUTUAL hostility
We want some kind of ranking or ladder for the arena system(we understand the game isn't balanced for PvP)
All of this stuff except the last was in Diablo 2. This stuff has been taken away from us and our ways of creating PvP content for ourselves is gone(ex: Iron man)
The arena system, while I think its an awesome addition to the game, pigeon holes us into a specific PvP style. Without proper tools we won't be able to play the game how WE want to play.
Random occurrences of PvP were always my favorite. Someone going hostile with you in a random game, you accept the challenge and smash it out with them.
What about the uneven matches. Going 3 on 1, 4 on 2, 3 on 2, etc... We can't do this.
This has been taken away and it makes me sad that this is the direction Blizzard is taking the game in.
I just hope I am wrong and that Blizzard is going to implement some of the things we want. Number 1 being custom games.
I don't see anything wrong with most of that, and I hope that we eventually get game types, mutual hostility, or duels. I especially like mutual hostility as an idea, because its so versatle. It can be used for 3 on 1, 2 on 2, 1 on 2, or 1 on 1. (Of course, there woud be friendly fire in team matches. You could fight at any regualr game location, cleared, or uncleared. It gives you the ability to duel, but without needing spammable duel requests to exploit and grief people with. I think that having this option would be nice in addition to arena.
And it's easy to implement. Just, if you have "Hostile" turned on, and the attack of another hostile player hits you, you take damage. The game just has to check two one bit flags. Simple!
But I disaggree on ladders. Many of us discussed why for a long time. If you rate people, you imply the game is a competitive, balanced, fair competition. When one or two classes and builds keep showing up at the top of the ladder, people will start complaining and there will be pressure to focus on perfecting PvP balance, which is a major undertaking.
If there was a ladder, the winners would largely be determined by how much luck teh player had on drops, or how much money they had to buy gear. The stats wouldn't really be meaningful.
Other than that, I think your ideas are fair, and hope they make it into the game.
But I disaggree on ladders. Many of us discussed why for a long time. If you rate people, you imply the game is a competitive, balanced, fair competition. When one or two classes and builds keep showing up at the top of the ladder, people will start complaining and there will be pressure to focus on perfecting PvP balance, which is a major undertaking.
If there was a ladder, the winners would largely be determined by how much luck teh player had on drops, or how much money they had to buy gear. The stats wouldn't really be meaningful.
I understand why people feel this way. I just find an arena system without a ladder or visual ranking kind of pointless.
I wanted to quote this post so that more people see it.
I basically agree with this person.
I am someone who enjoys the PvP aspects of games more so than the PvM aspect. This is the reason I play HoN and Dota 2. I love the Diablo series and I would say D2 is my favorite game of all time.
I am not asking for a game that is balanced as an eSport. I am asking for more freedom to play the game how I want to play it.
We want custom games
We want dueling
We want MUTUAL hostility
We want some kind of ranking or ladder for the arena system(we understand the game isn't balanced for PvP)
All of this stuff except the last was in Diablo 2. This stuff has been taken away from us and our ways of creating PvP content for ourselves is gone(ex: Iron man)
The arena system, while I think its an awesome addition to the game, pigeon holes us into a specific PvP style. Without proper tools we won't be able to play the game how WE want to play.
Random occurrences of PvP were always my favorite. Someone going hostile with you in a random game, you accept the challenge and smash it out with them.
What about the uneven matches. Going 3 on 1, 4 on 2, 3 on 2, etc... We can't do this.
This has been taken away and it makes me sad that this is the direction Blizzard is taking the game in.
I just hope I am wrong and that Blizzard is going to implement some of the things we want. Number 1 being custom games.
I don't see anything wrong with most of that, and I hope that we eventually get game types, mutual hostility, or duels. I especially like mutual hostility as an idea, because its so versatle. It can be used for 3 on 1, 2 on 2, 1 on 2, or 1 on 1. (Of course, there woud be friendly fire in team matches. You could fight at any regualr game location, cleared, or uncleared. It gives you the ability to duel, but without needing spammable duel requests to exploit and grief people with. I think that having this option would be nice in addition to arena.
And it's easy to implement. Just, if you have "Hostile" turned on, and the attack of another hostile player hits you, you take damage. The game just has to check two one bit flags. Simple!
But I disaggree on ladders. Many of us discussed why for a long time. If you rate people, you imply the game is a competitive, balanced, fair competition. When one or two classes and builds keep showing up at the top of the ladder, people will start complaining and there will be pressure to focus on perfecting PvP balance, which is a major undertaking.
If there was a ladder, the winners would largely be determined by how much luck teh player had on drops, or how much money they had to buy gear. The stats wouldn't really be meaningful.
Other than that, I think your ideas are fair, and hope they make it into the game.
I agree with this also allowing more open world pvp would be good rather than being cramped in a box and running around pillars.
The hostility games tho imo would need to be on seperate servers or flag the game as open hostility when its created. Some ppl dont wanna just be minding there own business only for a lvl 60 decked in full gear that they bought using there credit card dropping in a game going hostile and greifing ppl so they can feel superior.
I wanted to quote this post so that more people see it.
I basically agree with this person.
I am someone who enjoys the PvP aspects of games more so than the PvM aspect. This is the reason I play HoN and Dota 2. I love the Diablo series and I would say D2 is my favorite game of all time.
I am not asking for a game that is balanced as an eSport. I am asking for more freedom to play the game how I want to play it.
We want custom games
We want dueling
We want MUTUAL hostility
We want some kind of ranking or ladder for the arena system(we understand the game isn't balanced for PvP)
All of this stuff except the last was in Diablo 2. This stuff has been taken away from us and our ways of creating PvP content for ourselves is gone(ex: Iron man)
The arena system, while I think its an awesome addition to the game, pigeon holes us into a specific PvP style. Without proper tools we won't be able to play the game how WE want to play.
Random occurrences of PvP were always my favorite. Someone going hostile with you in a random game, you accept the challenge and smash it out with them.
What about the uneven matches. Going 3 on 1, 4 on 2, 3 on 2, etc... We can't do this.
This has been taken away and it makes me sad that this is the direction Blizzard is taking the game in.
I just hope I am wrong and that Blizzard is going to implement some of the things we want. Number 1 being custom games.
I don't see anything wrong with most of that, and I hope that we eventually get game types, mutual hostility, or duels. I especially like mutual hostility as an idea, because its so versatle. It can be used for 3 on 1, 2 on 2, 1 on 2, or 1 on 1. (Of course, there woud be friendly fire in team matches. You could fight at any regualr game location, cleared, or uncleared. It gives you the ability to duel, but without needing spammable duel requests to exploit and grief people with. I think that having this option would be nice in addition to arena.
And it's easy to implement. Just, if you have "Hostile" turned on, and the attack of another hostile player hits you, you take damage. The game just has to check two one bit flags. Simple!
But I disaggree on ladders. Many of us discussed why for a long time. If you rate people, you imply the game is a competitive, balanced, fair competition. When one or two classes and builds keep showing up at the top of the ladder, people will start complaining and there will be pressure to focus on perfecting PvP balance, which is a major undertaking.
If there was a ladder, the winners would largely be determined by how much luck teh player had on drops, or how much money they had to buy gear. The stats wouldn't really be meaningful.
Other than that, I think your ideas are fair, and hope they make it into the game.
I agree with this also allowing more open world pvp would be good rather than being cramped in a box and running around pillars.
The hostility games tho imo would need to be on seperate servers or flag the game as open hostility when its created. Some ppl dont wanna just be minding there own business only for a lvl 60 decked in full gear that they bought using there credit card dropping in a game going hostile and greifing ppl so they can feel superior.
That's what think is itneresting about mutual hostility. If both the attacking party and attacked party don't have Hostile turned on, the damage is jsut treated like friendly fire and attacks are ignored normally.
But just having open world hostile games would probably be even easier to implement.
One neat thign about mutual hostility though, would be the spontaneity of it. Like if you have been PvMing through the acts with a group for three hours, and get curious about eachother's skill levels and stuff, or just get bored, you could all jsut go hostile and have duels or a free for all or anything you want as a break. LOL. And anyone not intersted could jsut leave hostile unchecked and keep playing. Would be kind of cool and fun.
Also for those people who dont believe it can be done, Path of Exiles gives you more storage space, will have PvP at launch, dueling, etc, will have EVERYTHING d3 has, plus way more customization in character build, way more itemization. Oh, and ITS FUCKING FREE. FREE. FREE. FREE. FREE. FREE. FREE. FREE.
And they did it living off scraps, and their studio is 18 people, lots of those have been recent hires.
Everyone puts blizzard on a pedestal, why? I'll never understand. Because they made you great games? So? Companies that have nothing, and start with nothing make games of equal quality if not better? They do so with so few resources in comparison to blizzard it's disgusting.
expect more from the companies you support. You think its right to launch d3 without PvP? That's a fucking joke, who the fuck releases a game without all its features? That's laughable, and coming from a company that has succeeded and thrived off PvPers forever? A slap to the fucking face is what that is.
My whole original point, that people take out of context is that... pvp is as much a part of blizzard as pve, saying pvp is the minority and fucks up balance for pvp is either 100% ignorance or 100% troll.
Could blizzard make d3 and eSport? yes.
Do they want to? no.
Do i care it's not going to be an eSport? no.
Do i care blizzard thinks it's cool to release a game without pvp after we've been waiting an eternity for it? When one of your competitors is not only going to have pvp in their beta, but at launch, and its f2p? No. It's not acceptable. Anyone who thinks it's acceptable has lowered their standards, or just had piss poor standards to begin with.
That is all.
I've said that Blizzard could do it. Could they do it at this point without compromising the integrity of PvM? No. They designed the game around PvM and all abilities, items, etc are based on that fact. To do differently at this point is unrealistic. They are already had to push back PvP in order to complete Arena. How long do you think they'd have to push it off if they were to try re-balance the game for PvP? How long would such revisions push back any new PvM content?
Seriously guys, you guys are being very unrealistic. I'm not just accepting Blizzard's decision blindly. I actually understand the reasons they chose to do what they did. They have other games for PvP, Diablo is about PvM. If you don't like it so much, do not buy it. Obviously its not the game for you, and that is fine. You cannot expect every game to be exactly what you want. The majority of their players like the direction they've gone, and want them to keep the focus PvM, so it's the best path for Blizzard.
Diablo 2 pvp, where skill was simply having the most pimped to the gills character and rolling into a pvp game and rofl-stomping 7 other people into the dirt, because you simply had better gear.
I look forward to that simplicity again, kinda sucks no pub games like that anymore, but I look forward to that simplicity in Arena, hopefully.
Whoa whoa whoa, I have to stop you there buddy. I usually glance past the obvious raging so as to not get sucked in, but well grats you sucked me in =D
Straight up calling people who like the PVM side nut huggers, ect is just going to start a flame war. I advise you try to be half civil while arguing.
The game has been in development for less than 6 years, closer to 5. Yelling out false facts just confuses people.
If it's anywhere close to D2 (which they said it is, in length and time of play) it will be FAR more than 8 hours to run through. MAYBE about 8 hours to run through normal? But there are 3 other difficulties and a level cap of 60.
Comparing a linear (while yes open, but nothing changes) game like skyrim, with fixed locations and dungeons, to a randomized ARPG such as D3 doesn't make sense, they are vastly different games. Is skyrim big? Sure. Do you want to try and do the math at how many potential dungeons and outside environments D3 has? I wouldn't want to either.
'Have their lead tester code the shit in it's that easy.' I'm... not even going into that one. In fact, I suspect you are trolling sir, and I'm quite angry I've spent the time I have on this.
That seems non-cosntructive and completely backward to me. I think pretty much every point of debate from the PvP side of this discussion has been answered logically and politely at some point. And some PvPers have been rational and talked constructively too. Then you have posts like this. In my experience, when someone starts raging and trying to bully their way through a debate on cheep insults and testosterone, it is because they know they don't have answeres and fall back on intimidation.
Sorry if I'm being equally non-cosntructive, but the character of this post is just highly annoying.
That seems non-cosntructive and completely backward to me. I think pretty much every point of debate from the PvP side of this discussion has been answered logically and politely at some point. And some PvPers have been rational and talked constructively too. Then you have posts like this. In my experience, when someone starts raging and trying to bully their way through a debate on cheep insults and testosterone, it is because they know they don't have answeres and fall back on intimidation.
Sorry if I'm being equally non-cosntructive, but the character of this post is just highly annoying.
I appreciate this. I've done nothing but try to be polite and explain why we won't have many of the Diablo 2 or eSport related PvP features, but it seems that my posts just get ignored by those blinded by rage or something. Despite being insulted, harassed, etc...I'll continue to be civil and explain things as best I can and I appreciate the support.
Ya, the hardcore pvprs are so out numbered that every thread that talks about it turns into a disaster because they get ugly because they are ganged up on. They feel really passionate about what they want, and I appreciate that. However, the vast majority of the playerbase really doesnt care. They just want the game out and to eventually have some casual fun pvp off to the side of the item hunt. Simply put its a PvM game with casual pvp with a minority that care about anything more for pvp. Not saying its right or wrong, but thats the nature of the game and some will like it and some wont and will play something else to their tastes.
That seems non-cosntructive and completely backward to me. I think pretty much every point of debate from the PvP side of this discussion has been answered logically and politely at some point. And some PvPers have been rational and talked constructively too. Then you have posts like this. In my experience, when someone starts raging and trying to bully their way through a debate on cheep insults and testosterone, it is because they know they don't have answeres and fall back on intimidation.
Sorry if I'm being equally non-cosntructive, but the character of this post is just highly annoying.
How dare you try to troll me by talking about testosterone!!!! =D
In all seriousness you're correct it just turns into a flamefest and nothing gets accomplished.
How dare you try to troll me by talking about testosterone!!!! =D
In all seriousness you're correct it just turns into a flamefest and nothing gets accomplished.
LOL! Also in seriousness, I probably shouldn't have said that. It's just the "voice" of that post reminds me of some real life discussions I've had, where, you say something logical, then suddenly someone's entire head is bright red and they are standing over you bellowing nonsesne. Because apparently in their world really loud baseless insults trump logic any day.
OK, I'm ready to go back on topic now, and I hope I haven't offended anyone.
So I am going to rant a bit because this bugs me a lot. PvE people and Blizzard "cough" Jay Wilson "cough". I feel like people who are agaisnt PvP in Diablo didn't even play the game.. It honestly hurts my brain to see people agaisnt PvP in this game. Truly hurts my brain. I can't grasp the concept of hating on something so much when it has literally zero effect on any PvE'ers.. If you don't want to PvP it's very simple. You just don't do it. It makes no logical sense to hate or bash something that doesn't effect you.. I'll say it again. It makes no logical sense. So I am not sure why PvE players care so much that PvP people want Blizzard to back one of the biggest, if not the biggest thing about Diablo 2's endgame. PvP.
Who's bashing it? I think most people just aren't that concerned over PvP but they ain't exactly bashing it.
And I may feel like people who don't know the story that well also didn't even play the game as I feel that's what makes the game most entertaining. But everyone's playing it for their own different reasons.
I also just think it's debatable on what D2's endgame is. I assumed more people in D2 just did character builds, uber-Trist, MFing, crap like that. That's what I saw most people playing for, not PvP.
1. It's a top down, single unit control, click to move game. This setup has some strengths but its not optimal for dueling or versus. People who are serious about player versus player are going to gravitate toward FPS, RTS, and other setups. So put design focus on something your game can't possibly be best at?
2. Dueling viability is not determined solely by skill (like in most competition games) but is instead largely determined by gear.
3. The gear in point 2, drops based on luck. So your dueling capability is also determined largely by the luck of the drop.
4. Even worse, you can buy the gear with real money. So you have a supposedly serious competition game, where the deciding factors largely money and luck. Does anyone see the inherent problem?
Diablo from the control scheme on up is designed to be a one versus many, or co-op, PvM hack and slash. It can not, and will not, be an esport. And Blizzard does have games built from the ground up for the purpose of esport. Starcraft series has always been a major player in esport. Diablo has always been the king of hack and slash pvm. Why jump product category with Diablo, to compete in a market segment that you already have covered?
And they did it living off scraps, and their studio is 18 people, lots of those have been recent hires.
Everyone puts blizzard on a pedestal, why? I'll never understand. Because they made you great games? So? Companies that have nothing, and start with nothing make games of equal quality if not better? They do so with so few resources in comparison to blizzard it's disgusting.
expect more from the companies you support. You think its right to launch d3 without PvP? That's a fucking joke, who the fuck releases a game without all its features? That's laughable, and coming from a company that has succeeded and thrived off PvPers forever? A slap to the fucking face is what that is.
My whole original point, that people take out of context is that... pvp is as much a part of blizzard as pve, saying pvp is the minority and fucks up balance for pvp is either 100% ignorance or 100% troll.
Could blizzard make d3 and eSport? yes.
Do they want to? no.
Do i care it's not going to be an eSport? no.
Do i care blizzard thinks it's cool to release a game without pvp after we've been waiting an eternity for it? When one of your competitors is not only going to have pvp in their beta, but at launch, and its f2p? No. It's not acceptable. Anyone who thinks it's acceptable has lowered their standards, or just had piss poor standards to begin with.
That is all.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
1. the MOBA genre would like to have a word with you, especially LoL which is F2P and has rocked the eSports scene. It is a top down, single unit control. Even tho it had to buy it's way on the eSport scene, it makes so much fucking money it can continue to do so. Also you know, DotA, DotA2, HoN, and soon Blizz Dota
2. Take gear out of the equation, take the GW2 Balance approach. When you PvP, everyone has the same stats, only skill prevails.
3. Look at 2,
4. Look at 2.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
It's how you balance for pvp? I'm sorry you dont understand simple logic.
If you want to balance PvP you eliminate things that cause the imbalance.
if Gear is no longer a factor, Introduce PSR and MMR.
grats, you now fight opponents solely based on skill. Gear is not an issue. These are steps you take for balance.
The gear you earn in DotA, or the gear you earn in CS, is a direct result of you, and your teams performance in the game. You do not start with a gear advantage, this causes balance issues.
If you hit 10% harder than me? how is this a fair fight? If we both hit as hard, then it comes down to skill, and build. I should never lose to you in a PvP match because you spent IRL money on god tier items. This is not balanced PvP.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Could blizzard make d3 and eSport? yes.
Do they want to? no.
Do i care it's not going to be an eSport? no.
Do i care blizzard thinks it's cool to release a game without pvp after we've been waiting an eternity for it? When one of your competitors is not only going to have pvp in their beta, but at launch, and its f2p? No.
It's not acceptable. Anyone who thinks it's acceptable has lowered their standards, or just had piss poor standards to begin with.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
I aggree that it is what you would have to do to balance it. But there are problems. The gear is part of your build. Your skills and playstyle are largely supported by specific equipment decisions. So you are taking a lot of depth out of the game when gear is decided based on what is available within a match.
I wanted to quote this post so that more people see it.
I basically agree with this person.
I am someone who enjoys the PvP aspects of games more so than the PvM aspect. This is the reason I play HoN and Dota 2. I love the Diablo series and I would say D2 is my favorite game of all time.
I am not asking for a game that is balanced as an eSport. I am asking for more freedom to play the game how I want to play it.
We want custom games
We want dueling
We want MUTUAL hostility
We want some kind of ranking or ladder for the arena system(we understand the game isn't balanced for PvP)
All of this stuff except the last was in Diablo 2. This stuff has been taken away from us and our ways of creating PvP content for ourselves is gone(ex: Iron man)
The arena system, while I think its an awesome addition to the game, pigeon holes us into a specific PvP style. Without proper tools we won't be able to play the game how WE want to play.
Random occurrences of PvP were always my favorite. Someone going hostile with you in a random game, you accept the challenge and smash it out with them.
What about the uneven matches. Going 3 on 1, 4 on 2, 3 on 2, etc... We can't do this.
This has been taken away and it makes me sad that this is the direction Blizzard is taking the game in.
I just hope I am wrong and that Blizzard is going to implement some of the things we want. Number 1 being custom games.
I don't see anything wrong with most of that, and I hope that we eventually get game types, mutual hostility, or duels. I especially like mutual hostility as an idea, because its so versatle. It can be used for 3 on 1, 2 on 2, 1 on 2, or 1 on 1. (Of course, there woud be friendly fire in team matches. You could fight at any regualr game location, cleared, or uncleared. It gives you the ability to duel, but without needing spammable duel requests to exploit and grief people with. I think that having this option would be nice in addition to arena.
And it's easy to implement. Just, if you have "Hostile" turned on, and the attack of another hostile player hits you, you take damage. The game just has to check two one bit flags. Simple!
But I disaggree on ladders. Many of us discussed why for a long time. If you rate people, you imply the game is a competitive, balanced, fair competition. When one or two classes and builds keep showing up at the top of the ladder, people will start complaining and there will be pressure to focus on perfecting PvP balance, which is a major undertaking.
If there was a ladder, the winners would largely be determined by how much luck teh player had on drops, or how much money they had to buy gear. The stats wouldn't really be meaningful.
Other than that, I think your ideas are fair, and hope they make it into the game.
I understand why people feel this way. I just find an arena system without a ladder or visual ranking kind of pointless.
edit: lol my orignal post said "with a ladder"
That's what think is itneresting about mutual hostility. If both the attacking party and attacked party don't have Hostile turned on, the damage is jsut treated like friendly fire and attacks are ignored normally.
But just having open world hostile games would probably be even easier to implement.
One neat thign about mutual hostility though, would be the spontaneity of it. Like if you have been PvMing through the acts with a group for three hours, and get curious about eachother's skill levels and stuff, or just get bored, you could all jsut go hostile and have duels or a free for all or anything you want as a break. LOL. And anyone not intersted could jsut leave hostile unchecked and keep playing. Would be kind of cool and fun.
I've said that Blizzard could do it. Could they do it at this point without compromising the integrity of PvM? No. They designed the game around PvM and all abilities, items, etc are based on that fact. To do differently at this point is unrealistic. They are already had to push back PvP in order to complete Arena. How long do you think they'd have to push it off if they were to try re-balance the game for PvP? How long would such revisions push back any new PvM content?
Seriously guys, you guys are being very unrealistic. I'm not just accepting Blizzard's decision blindly. I actually understand the reasons they chose to do what they did. They have other games for PvP, Diablo is about PvM. If you don't like it so much, do not buy it. Obviously its not the game for you, and that is fine. You cannot expect every game to be exactly what you want. The majority of their players like the direction they've gone, and want them to keep the focus PvM, so it's the best path for Blizzard.
I look forward to that simplicity again, kinda sucks no pub games like that anymore, but I look forward to that simplicity in Arena, hopefully.
Whoa whoa whoa, I have to stop you there buddy. I usually glance past the obvious raging so as to not get sucked in, but well grats you sucked me in =D
Straight up calling people who like the PVM side nut huggers, ect is just going to start a flame war. I advise you try to be half civil while arguing.
The game has been in development for less than 6 years, closer to 5. Yelling out false facts just confuses people.
If it's anywhere close to D2 (which they said it is, in length and time of play) it will be FAR more than 8 hours to run through. MAYBE about 8 hours to run through normal? But there are 3 other difficulties and a level cap of 60.
Comparing a linear (while yes open, but nothing changes) game like skyrim, with fixed locations and dungeons, to a randomized ARPG such as D3 doesn't make sense, they are vastly different games. Is skyrim big? Sure. Do you want to try and do the math at how many potential dungeons and outside environments D3 has? I wouldn't want to either.
'Have their lead tester code the shit in it's that easy.' I'm... not even going into that one. In fact, I suspect you are trolling sir, and I'm quite angry I've spent the time I have on this.
That seems non-cosntructive and completely backward to me. I think pretty much every point of debate from the PvP side of this discussion has been answered logically and politely at some point. And some PvPers have been rational and talked constructively too. Then you have posts like this. In my experience, when someone starts raging and trying to bully their way through a debate on cheep insults and testosterone, it is because they know they don't have answeres and fall back on intimidation.
Sorry if I'm being equally non-cosntructive, but the character of this post is just highly annoying.
I appreciate this. I've done nothing but try to be polite and explain why we won't have many of the Diablo 2 or eSport related PvP features, but it seems that my posts just get ignored by those blinded by rage or something. Despite being insulted, harassed, etc...I'll continue to be civil and explain things as best I can and I appreciate the support.
How dare you try to troll me by talking about testosterone!!!! =D
In all seriousness you're correct it just turns into a flamefest and nothing gets accomplished.
LOL! Also in seriousness, I probably shouldn't have said that. It's just the "voice" of that post reminds me of some real life discussions I've had, where, you say something logical, then suddenly someone's entire head is bright red and they are standing over you bellowing nonsesne. Because apparently in their world really loud baseless insults trump logic any day.
OK, I'm ready to go back on topic now, and I hope I haven't offended anyone.
And I may feel like people who don't know the story that well also didn't even play the game as I feel that's what makes the game most entertaining. But everyone's playing it for their own different reasons.
I also just think it's debatable on what D2's endgame is. I assumed more people in D2 just did character builds, uber-Trist, MFing, crap like that. That's what I saw most people playing for, not PvP.
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