There's various ways to implement competition into Diablo 3 without necessitating razor edge e-sports balance. If you bothered to read my thoughts on the subject you wouldn't be asking me these questions.
note: arena is NOT the epitome of competition. It's another result of lazy development lacking creativity that will simply NEVER WORK PERFECTLY IN A GEAR BASED RPG. IT IS FUTILE TO STRIVE FOR PERFECT BALANCE IN THIS GENRE.
Arena almost necessitates extreme balance. What should be done is a directed focus on objective based competition modes, coined GAME MODES by myself, that would NOT be heavy in design requirements. I.e. HORDE MODE - fending off hordes of monsters against an opposing team. Monsters are already developed, simply create a format and difficulty scaling and u have this game mode. This modes are somewhat inherently balanced because of the addition of objectives that require more than maximizing DPS or Survivability. LOGISTICS COMES INTO PLAY. It opens up an entirely new format for competition. Arena deathmatch has been beat to shit by WoW, and we've seen the results. Please GIVE US SOMETHING REVOLUTIONARY. YOU'RE BLIZZARD.
Obviously I'm oversimplifying the design process, but I have faith in a company that has designed so many amazing games in the past. These type of game modes would add massive replayability and satisfy the craving that many have for competition in Diablo 3.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
This might sound stupid, but does "competitive PvP" mean anything more than PvP? It seems redundant.
Isn't anything where two players are going to be "versus" eachother, competitive by definition? I'm not trying to be unconstructive. I just can't tell if this means a more serious PvP mode than we originally expected or not.
I'm pretty sure they mentioned at the last Blizzcon that they like the idea of implementing different modes. You mentioned Horde mode, they did too. If memory serves, they were (at the time anyway) unsure how to present in a way that makes sense for Diablo since putting the heroes in an arena, a controlled environment where suddenly slaying demons is Roman arena style entertainment doesn't make sense for Sanctuary.
Like some of the others here I really don't know what you're raging on about, dropping F bombs at pixels. You waste your energy, sir.
People who want to PvP will do it. The game is too complicated to maintain a perfect balance, which ties in to why they always mention eSports with competitive PvP. It's been clear from the start: They want PvP to be a system where people can go to for a change of pace. One where you can punch player controlled characters in the face with. Variaties in how this happens, that's something they'll likely support, especially over time. But it IS going to be as simple as that.
The way I see it is that in order to have a competitive environment, the play field wants to be equal, or as equal as you can make it. And it's that equality that they do not wish to pursue. Let's say Wizards are ridiculously under powered in PvP. They just don't want to spend time fixing that imbalance. Consider it laziness or whatever, but it's their choice with their game.
Anyway, can you just clear up what exactly your intent is? I'll be the first to say I'm dull/dense, but clearly I'm not the only one confused here.
The initial quote does imply that D3 was intended to have a competitive PVP system. The context is about D3 so its reasonable to attribute his comments to D3.
However it is important to know that the quote is FOUR years old back in 2008.
What this shows is that at one point in its development cycle, D3 was intended to have (if only at a conceptual stage), competitive PVP. This is no longer so as the new goal is for casual non competitive PVP.
Crushing players in arenas gets old FAST. What we need are TEAM ORIENTED OBJECTIVE BASED PVP SCENARIOS. That's where the real shit is.
Arena will never work in this genre because it's very core is based on obtaining an imbalanced advantage (be it through team composition, gear, build).
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
This might sound stupid, but does "competitive PvP" mean anything more than PvP? It seems redundant.
Isn't anything where two players are going to be "versus" eachother, competitive by definition? I'm not trying to be unconstructive. I just can't tell if this means a more serious PvP mode than we originally expected or not.
Exactly! The term competitive pvp is redundant as you pointed out, they might as well call it a competitive competition. When they say they don't want it to be an E-Sport than you have to understand what an E-Sport is to have an idea of what they mean. My take on it is that they aren't going to have any incentives to PvP like a major ranking/ladder like SC2 or give items out like WoW but instead they just want it to be a fun way for people to compete if they choose too.
d0c: i think he means having 2 different set of skills for PvE and PvP. For instance, the PvP skills dsnt excist while you're PvMing.
Anyway, this retarded stance people have gotn these days that Diablo 3 is ALL about PvE is bullshit. Diablo 2 had lots of PvP and lots of tournaments that were put togeather by random passionate people. Blizzard knows this and that PvP is still alive in D2 and has kept it alive for several years, yet they chose to ignore it completely. Without competition in PvP, whats the point? Seriously, there is no point. No rewards except useless banners that dsnt show a shit, useless achievements no1 will glance at, boring and uninteresting gameplay that will die within a short period of time.
Shortened your quote as I wanted to just reply to this section, I hope you don't mind. Anyways you kind of answered your question "Without competition in PvP, whats the point?". You said tons of people focused on PvP in Diablo 2 despite having absolutely nothing to show for it, aside from ears which no one else could see. D2 PvP was done because it was a fun way to compete with other people and show off your skill. Well what is the difference in D3? Why is D2 full of PvPers but yet PvP "will die within a short period of time"? Basically what was the incentive that made the PvP community in D2 as strong as you say it is?
I'm not saying you are right or wrong but I just don't think the lack of a ranking system will make PvP boring. Maybe you could send Blizz an email telling them how "retarded" their game design is and that will make them change it...
d0c: i think he means having 2 different set of skills for PvE and PvP. For instance, the PvP skills dsnt excist while you're PvMing.
Anyway, this retarded stance people have gotn these days that Diablo 3 is ALL about PvE is bullshit. Diablo 2 had lots of PvP and lots of tournaments that were put togeather by random passionate people. Blizzard knows this and that PvP is still alive in D2 and has kept it alive for several years, yet they chose to ignore it completely. Without competition in PvP, whats the point? Seriously, there is no point. No rewards except useless banners that dsnt show a shit, useless achievements no1 will glance at, boring and uninteresting gameplay that will die within a short period of time.
Shortened your quote as I wanted to just reply to this section, I hope you don't mind. Anyways you kind of answered your question "Without competition in PvP, whats the point?". You said tons of people focused on PvP in Diablo 2 despite having absolutely nothing to show for it, aside from ears which no one else could see. D2 PvP was done because it was a fun way to compete with other people and show off your skill. Well what is the difference in D3? Why is D2 full of PvPers but yet PvP "will die within a short period of time"? Basically what was the incentive that made the PvP community in D2 as strong as you say it is?
I'm not saying you are right or wrong but I just don't think the lack of a ranking system will make PvP boring. Maybe you could send Blizz an email telling them how "retarded" their game design is and that will make them change it...
The reason D2 was full of PvP'ers was because we as a community had the ability to do what we wanted with the system. We could establish our own rules, our own ladders, our own format. In D3 PvP we are so far stuck with 3-4v3-4 TDM style, where we have no ability to do anything other then faceplant the enemy in an arena, it is really worlds apart at the options we had vs what we have right now.
Now this could all change depending on what the PvP patch brings, but if it is just a TDM random arena, then good luck keeping that garbage alive. It won't be supported by any committed PvP groups and it won't get the love from the PvM'ers beside a 1 off play here or there.
In the long run, it is in Blizzards best interest to give us the tools and ability to make our own rules and our own formats in the way of a custom private arena. It will keep the PvP'ers there playing and enjoying the game for a LONG time, and it will allow the PvM'ers to blend over from the casual random arena to a more serious or high end dueling atmosphere. Despite the bad rap that competitive gaming gets from a lot of users here, there is a ton of fun to be had in private ladders and communities.
Now people will cry about resources, they already stated that PvP patch has 100% of their attention till it is released. Making a private arena wouldn't require an ass ton of resources to implement and I fully expect someone of Blizzards caliber to be able to implement such a system with little to no problem.
Bottom line, if the options arn't for you, don't worry. You still have casual arena and PvM, if it is..then great you'll love it
I think the stigma of WoW arena has corrupted the perception of PvP for this entire genre (gear based rpg's). It's obvious that small scale PvP (1 v 1, 2 v 2, 3 v 3) will ALWAYS be inherently imbalanced because of the very nature of the game. Competition is not synonymous with PvP. There are multiple game modes that I have listed that do not directly pit players against each other, although in essence you would be competing against another team in other ways (i.e. who can last longer vs. hordes of monsters - horde mode, who can complete content faster - content racing, etc.)
What can be done about this? As has been stated MANY times, putting emphasis on OBJECTIVES and creating more dynamics in the competitive game field will help to alleviate the inevitable imbalances, and allow for more creative and interesting gameplay.. not to mention be fun AS HELL. Putting design issues aside, just imagine how incredible playing a DoTA game with your Diablo 3 character would be. Put aside whatever prejudice your have against PvP or competition or whatever. It would just be massively fun, period, and "game modes" (my term) like this have INFINITE REPLAYABILITY. Whereas, amazing or not, the story line in Diablo 3 will eventually end and the average player will become bored with the game. Game modes work synergistically with the PvM side of Diablo 3 by encouraging even MORE FARMING, MORE TRADING, ETC. to encourage people to obtain loot to use in these game modes and be more successful.
That's how I see it at least. I sincerely hope Diablo 3 PvP (or competition) IS NOT RELEGATED TO ARENAS. This may be fun for a while. but with no incentive to encourage competition there is simply no substance in the system.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
We definitely want there to be a PvP mode for PvP players, and we would like that mode to be a really serious, skill-based, very strong [aspect of the game]. I feel that on the side of all our games, we really try to make PvP games that cater to a competitive player, first and foremost. We don't try to dumb down or tone down our PvP games. We make [them] good, strong competitive games. StarCraft is one of the best examples. But in terms of what our actual plans are for Diablo III, we don't have anything to specifically announce right now, mostly because we're still messing around with a bunch of different ideas.
Interview on front page in support of a solid COMPETITIVE PvP system. Devs even say how excited they are to participate.
This should make everyone shut the fuck up about PvP not having a basis in Diablo 3.
From the bestbuy Q&A
I know you don't plan to support Diablo 3 to be a eSport - If the commnunity wants it to become a eSport(without the implied balance), would you support it with replays/spectator mode and more ?
JayWilson: No. We don't want Diablo 3 to become an E-sport. It's OK to have PVP just for fun. Our focus is on our PVE game, and we want it to stay there.
This ^ makes me very happy
One reason people on the forum go head to head is because competitive can mean one thing for 1 person and another thing for the other.
For person A competitive PVP means a ranking system, serious match making system etc..
For person B competitive PVP means that there is a goal in the pvp system, the arenas have goals (kills etc..).
For Blizzard competitive PVP means the later it seems, which brings the more fun/casual approach and still keeps a goal/structure to the PVP system, which in my opinion still means competitive.
I think the stigma of WoW arena has corrupted the perception of PvP for this entire genre (gear based rpg's). It's obvious that small scale PvP (1 v 1, 2 v 2, 3 v 3) will ALWAYS be inherently imbalanced because of the very nature of the game. Competition is not synonymous with PvP. There are multiple game modes that I have listed that do not directly pit players against each other, although in essence you would be competing against another team in other ways (i.e. who can last longer vs. hordes of monsters - horde mode, who can complete content faster - content racing, etc.)
What can be done about this? As has been stated MANY times, putting emphasis on OBJECTIVES and creating more dynamics in the competitive game field will help to alleviate the inevitable imbalances, and allow for more creative and interesting gameplay.. not to mention be fun AS HELL. Putting design issues aside, just imagine how incredible playing a DoTA game with your Diablo 3 character would be. Put aside whatever prejudice your have against PvP or competition or whatever. It would just be massively fun, period, and "game modes" (my term) like this have INFINITE REPLAYABILITY. Whereas, amazing or not, the story line in Diablo 3 will eventually end and the average player will become bored with the game. Game modes work synergistically with the PvM side of Diablo 3 by encouraging even MORE FARMING, MORE TRADING, ETC. to encourage people to obtain loot to use in these game modes and be more successful.
That's how I see it at least. I sincerely hope Diablo 3 PvP (or competition) IS NOT RELEGATED TO ARENAS. This may be fun for a while. but with no incentive to encourage competition there is simply no substance in the system.
Well Jay stated that we won't see DOTA mode in d3 cause it's not made for d3 (jungling for what? going to base to buy what if we already have gear?) etc etc..
I will be mainly a PvP'er in D3 and i hope (as it has been said before by devs) that we have more pvp modes, like capture the flag etc tec.
In fact they even said the only reason they delayed pvp is cause they had only 3 or so arenas and they were very similar, obviously we will get more arenas with different lay-outs and shit.
Also do not forget we are no longer out after first death in arena like the arenas we saw in blizzcon, we now respawn until a set number of kills or time is reached (so even less balance problems as one can simply study his opponent and make proper adjustments)
Competitive is relative, i for one am gonna compete to win every arena i enter, with or without ranking, ladder, etc...
PvP will be awesome, don't worry ^^
PS:Sorry for wall of text crit xD
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Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
Well Jay stated that we won't see DOTA mode in d3 cause it's not made for d3 (jungling for what? going to base to buy what if we already have gear?) etc etc..
Obviously you would alter the format to support the game.. common sense please.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
d0c: i think he means having 2 different set of skills for PvE and PvP. For instance, the PvP skills dsnt excist while you're PvMing.
Anyway, this retarded stance people have gotn these days that Diablo 3 is ALL about PvE is bullshit. Diablo 2 had lots of PvP and lots of tournaments that were put togeather by random passionate people. Blizzard knows this and that PvP is still alive in D2 and has kept it alive for several years, yet they chose to ignore it completely. Without competition in PvP, whats the point? Seriously, there is no point. No rewards except useless banners that dsnt show a shit, useless achievements no1 will glance at, boring and uninteresting gameplay that will die within a short period of time. I mean i can enter a arena game and eat, watch a movie at the same time and still get rewarded by the end of the game despite the fact that we lost and that i didnt contribute with anything during the match............................................. (deleted)
TLDR cause you need to use some damn punctuation. The majority of forum readers will not take the time to read your post cause its hard to read.
On PvP:
PvP will take a backseat to PvE BECAUSE Blizzard devs are not willing to have to balance each class in both PvE and PvP in one vs one and 2v2 and so on scenarios. PvP is not objective based scenarios that is still a form of PvE(will get to this later) all PvP stands for is Player vs Player. This entails arena or tournament or duel style battle between 1 or more characters.
The reasons the PvP in the game will not be competetive stands for this reason. It is unreasonable to ask developers to design and balance a skill set that is well balanced in both PvE and PvP. One of the design systems must always take priority OR.........
The other system is simply what Blizzard has already said they will not do... Design skill sets that work differently in pve and pvp. This is because it is completely unreasonable to ask devs to build 2 seperate skill systems for each class for pve and pvp and then balance both of them. It would require another year or two of testing and development time in my opinon.
This is why PvP will not be competetive in D3. Simply because PvP is not going to as balanced so it would not be fair to have a ranking system.
For the PvP enthusiats, Diablo 2 was just like D3 in that it was a PvE oriented game. You diehards made it work, there were tournaments and 3rd party functions to support it. Since Diablo 2 was just as imbalanced as D3 will be..... so my question to you is:
Why can you not build third party support for D3 arena based PvP which is even more support that the simple hostile function and keep your tournaments?
I don't see why there is an outcry. If you expected D3 to focus on PvP I think you were mistaking the series for something it never was intended to be.
On Obj based Scenarios:
Objective based scenarios are a great idea and I as one would love to see them done. Doc it would definitley increase lasting time for the game to add something other than item farming. The problem is if it wasn't designed it more than likely wont be built at least not till expansion. This is because it is not a sub fee based game.
I may be completely off the mark in what i thought they said about pvp and not balancing 2 skill sets for each class. This is simply what i understood from interviews and reading.
The reason D2 was full of PvP'ers was because we as a community had the ability to do what we wanted with the system. We could establish our own rules, our own ladders, our own format. In D3 PvP we are so far stuck with 3-4v3-4 TDM style, where we have no ability to do anything other then faceplant the enemy in an arena, it is really worlds apart at the options we had vs what we have right now.
Now this could all change depending on what the PvP patch brings, but if it is just a TDM random arena, then good luck keeping that garbage alive. It won't be supported by any committed PvP groups and it won't get the love from the PvM'ers beside a 1 off play here or there.
In the long run, it is in Blizzards best interest to give us the tools and ability to make our own rules and our own formats in the way of a custom private arena. It will keep the PvP'ers there playing and enjoying the game for a LONG time, and it will allow the PvM'ers to blend over from the casual random arena to a more serious or high end dueling atmosphere. Despite the bad rap that competitive gaming gets from a lot of users here, there is a ton of fun to be had in private ladders and communities.
Now people will cry about resources, they already stated that PvP patch has 100% of their attention till it is released. Making a private arena wouldn't require an ass ton of resources to implement and I fully expect someone of Blizzards caliber to be able to implement such a system with little to no problem.
Bottom line, if the options arn't for you, don't worry. You still have casual arena and PvM, if it is..then great you'll love it
See now this is a reasonable response from a PvP enthusiast. We as the consumer have no idea at this point what the PvP patch is going to introduce. It may give the PvPer alot more freedom to establish their own arena or group. This wouldn't take a ton of resources.
I think what Blizzard needs to do is just give the PvP system alot more freedom to create groups or arena systems and pick how you want to organize it. Much like you can pick a custom match in SC2. This will allow the game to keep a PvP system that enthusiasts can enjoy and still not require devs to balance 2 skill sets.
I would believe options for the pvp system are going to be the key to longevity for pvp players.
But I do strongly believe there will not be any systems in place by Blizzard to balance PvP seperate from PvE or ranking/matchmaking system.
They have a system called "snows" that makes them able to tweak spells for lets say pvp without chaning its function or damage in pve. So there is no real reason to say that they dont want to Balance it because it Will effect pve. Thats kind of bullshit from their part. Balance isnt an issue, they can still tweak the spells for pvp without effecting pve. Whats the argument against that?. Being lazy or just dont want to i assume. Ignoring competetive pvp is just lame. btw, i wrote it all from my phone so its not well written. Anyway, if they dont Bring something Good for pvp in the patch then i Think alot Will quit after playing the story. A big game like this should be all it can be and support competetive players just as well as casual players.
I Believe if any1 can pull off Amazing pvp its blizzard. they just dont want to, simple as that. And because of that the longevity of the game Will be massively shortened. Sad.
Yes, they have "snow" that allows them to balance PvM and PvP separately (to a degree). The reason they are not doing so is because continually balancing PvP costs a lot in development resources and time. The developers do not want to balance two games like that. The developers themselves want to focus their development on PvM, end of story.
It really shouldn't be an argument, as the game's developers specifically do not want to do it...
It doesn't make the game worse because they want to focus on the core of the game (PvM). It just means we're likely to see regular PvM content updates. We'll probably see an expansion within a year. They don't need PvP to maintain longevity, if they can keep coming up with PvM challenges to overcome...and it seems they will do just that.
And then there's the direct quote from Jay saying that they will never support anything close to Epsorts in D3, including replays, spectator modes, pvp only items or pvp changes skills, ect. Even WITH the support of the community.
They have a system called "snows" that makes them able to tweak spells for lets say pvp without chaning its function or damage in pve. So there is no real reason to say that they dont want to Balance it because it Will effect pve. Thats kind of bullshit from their part. Balance isnt an issue, they can still tweak the spells for pvp without effecting pve. Whats the argument against that?. Being lazy or just dont want to i assume. Ignoring competetive pvp is just lame. btw, i wrote it all from my phone so its not well written. Anyway, if they dont Bring something Good for pvp in the patch then i Think alot Will quit after playing the story. A big game like this should be all it can be and support competetive players just as well as casual players.
I Believe if any1 can pull off Amazing pvp its blizzard. they just dont want to, simple as that. And because of that the longevity of the game Will be massively shortened. Sad.
Yes, they have "snow" that allows them to balance PvM and PvP separately (to a degree). The reason they are not doing so is because continually balancing PvP costs a lot in development resources and time. The developers do not want to balance two games like that. The developers themselves want to focus their development on PvM, end of story.
It really shouldn't be an argument, as the game's developers specifically do not want to do it...
It doesn't make the game worse because they want to focus on the core of the game (PvM). It just means we're likely to see regular PvM content updates. We'll probably see an expansion within a year. They don't need PvP to maintain longevity, if they can keep coming up with PvM challenges to overcome...and it seems they will do just that.
In a game like Diablo, they would have to come up with a ton of PvM content to replace the PvP longevity for people. It would have to be pretty intense and interesting. Something that end game Diablo so far has failed to do. We will have to wait and see how Inferno plays out but from what I have seen it is just the same old crap just monsters take longer to kill. You might have to be a little more careful, but you can always outgear and outsmart the AI in a game like Diablo.
In a game like Diablo, they would have to come up with a ton of PvM content to replace the PvP longevity for people. It would have to be pretty intense and interesting. Something that end game Diablo so far has failed to do. We will have to wait and see how Inferno plays out but from what I have seen it is just the same old crap just monsters take longer to kill. You might have to be a little more careful, but you can always outgear and outsmart the AI in a game like Diablo.
I disagree that they need a ton of PvM content to replace PvP longevity for a lot of people. Sure, the PvP focused players won't care to grind the PvM game a ton beyond beating the game with a couple characters maybe. However, the people that actually buy Diablo 3 for PvM will likely keep playing for a couple years...just off the initial content offered.
Blizzard stated that the randomization of the world increases after the Skeleton King, which means each play~through will be different. They have Inferno which will challenge the players. They have hardcore, when combined with Inferno will offer a near~impossible challenge (from what we've been told).
The game has enough challenge to keep people playing a long time...without PvP. The kicker is...they are adding PvP on top of all that. Sure, they are focusing such PvP away from eSports. However, this new design is actually getting people interested in PvP that wouldn't have PvP'd in Diablo 2. So, it seems that they will get more replay from their average users then they would otherwise.
In a game like Diablo, they would have to come up with a ton of PvM content to replace the PvP longevity for people. It would have to be pretty intense and interesting. Something that end game Diablo so far has failed to do. We will have to wait and see how Inferno plays out but from what I have seen it is just the same old crap just monsters take longer to kill. You might have to be a little more careful, but you can always outgear and outsmart the AI in a game like Diablo.
If what you said was true, no one would be playing D2 still, after all these years. Personally, the MF'ing aspect of Diablo 2 always drew me back to it, even during my hardcore WoW days. You don't need endgame when it's so easy to get a character rushed and for me, it was so unbelievably fun to gear a new character out within a day or two, something that's a bit harder in WoW.
For me, I would be perfectly fine with a slightly improved D2 PvP system. I don't even care about arenas. If anything, the people who are so gung-ho about PvP in WoW were the ones I liked playing with the least, and I wouldn't mind them staying away from D3. I would love nothing more than to fight real players outside of town just like the old days, but I seriously hope they stick to their guns and offer a very subtle PvP presence for this game.
PVP SUCKS WHEN IS ONYXIA
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There's various ways to implement competition into Diablo 3 without necessitating razor edge e-sports balance. If you bothered to read my thoughts on the subject you wouldn't be asking me these questions.
note: arena is NOT the epitome of competition. It's another result of lazy development lacking creativity that will simply NEVER WORK PERFECTLY IN A GEAR BASED RPG. IT IS FUTILE TO STRIVE FOR PERFECT BALANCE IN THIS GENRE.
Arena almost necessitates extreme balance. What should be done is a directed focus on objective based competition modes, coined GAME MODES by myself, that would NOT be heavy in design requirements. I.e. HORDE MODE - fending off hordes of monsters against an opposing team. Monsters are already developed, simply create a format and difficulty scaling and u have this game mode. This modes are somewhat inherently balanced because of the addition of objectives that require more than maximizing DPS or Survivability. LOGISTICS COMES INTO PLAY. It opens up an entirely new format for competition. Arena deathmatch has been beat to shit by WoW, and we've seen the results. Please GIVE US SOMETHING REVOLUTIONARY. YOU'RE BLIZZARD.
Obviously I'm oversimplifying the design process, but I have faith in a company that has designed so many amazing games in the past. These type of game modes would add massive replayability and satisfy the craving that many have for competition in Diablo 3.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
Isn't anything where two players are going to be "versus" eachother, competitive by definition? I'm not trying to be unconstructive. I just can't tell if this means a more serious PvP mode than we originally expected or not.
Like some of the others here I really don't know what you're raging on about, dropping F bombs at pixels. You waste your energy, sir.
People who want to PvP will do it. The game is too complicated to maintain a perfect balance, which ties in to why they always mention eSports with competitive PvP. It's been clear from the start: They want PvP to be a system where people can go to for a change of pace. One where you can punch player controlled characters in the face with. Variaties in how this happens, that's something they'll likely support, especially over time. But it IS going to be as simple as that.
The way I see it is that in order to have a competitive environment, the play field wants to be equal, or as equal as you can make it. And it's that equality that they do not wish to pursue. Let's say Wizards are ridiculously under powered in PvP. They just don't want to spend time fixing that imbalance. Consider it laziness or whatever, but it's their choice with their game.
Anyway, can you just clear up what exactly your intent is? I'll be the first to say I'm dull/dense, but clearly I'm not the only one confused here.
Apparently this is not worth my time. Idiots can't even read what I've posted multiple times.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
However it is important to know that the quote is FOUR years old back in 2008.
What this shows is that at one point in its development cycle, D3 was intended to have (if only at a conceptual stage), competitive PVP. This is no longer so as the new goal is for casual non competitive PVP.
Arena will never work in this genre because it's very core is based on obtaining an imbalanced advantage (be it through team composition, gear, build).
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Exactly! The term competitive pvp is redundant as you pointed out, they might as well call it a competitive competition. When they say they don't want it to be an E-Sport than you have to understand what an E-Sport is to have an idea of what they mean. My take on it is that they aren't going to have any incentives to PvP like a major ranking/ladder like SC2 or give items out like WoW but instead they just want it to be a fun way for people to compete if they choose too.
Shortened your quote as I wanted to just reply to this section, I hope you don't mind. Anyways you kind of answered your question "Without competition in PvP, whats the point?". You said tons of people focused on PvP in Diablo 2 despite having absolutely nothing to show for it, aside from ears which no one else could see. D2 PvP was done because it was a fun way to compete with other people and show off your skill. Well what is the difference in D3? Why is D2 full of PvPers but yet PvP "will die within a short period of time"? Basically what was the incentive that made the PvP community in D2 as strong as you say it is?
I'm not saying you are right or wrong but I just don't think the lack of a ranking system will make PvP boring. Maybe you could send Blizz an email telling them how "retarded" their game design is and that will make them change it...
Now this could all change depending on what the PvP patch brings, but if it is just a TDM random arena, then good luck keeping that garbage alive. It won't be supported by any committed PvP groups and it won't get the love from the PvM'ers beside a 1 off play here or there.
In the long run, it is in Blizzards best interest to give us the tools and ability to make our own rules and our own formats in the way of a custom private arena. It will keep the PvP'ers there playing and enjoying the game for a LONG time, and it will allow the PvM'ers to blend over from the casual random arena to a more serious or high end dueling atmosphere. Despite the bad rap that competitive gaming gets from a lot of users here, there is a ton of fun to be had in private ladders and communities.
Now people will cry about resources, they already stated that PvP patch has 100% of their attention till it is released. Making a private arena wouldn't require an ass ton of resources to implement and I fully expect someone of Blizzards caliber to be able to implement such a system with little to no problem.
Bottom line, if the options arn't for you, don't worry. You still have casual arena and PvM, if it is..then great you'll love it
What can be done about this? As has been stated MANY times, putting emphasis on OBJECTIVES and creating more dynamics in the competitive game field will help to alleviate the inevitable imbalances, and allow for more creative and interesting gameplay.. not to mention be fun AS HELL. Putting design issues aside, just imagine how incredible playing a DoTA game with your Diablo 3 character would be. Put aside whatever prejudice your have against PvP or competition or whatever. It would just be massively fun, period, and "game modes" (my term) like this have INFINITE REPLAYABILITY. Whereas, amazing or not, the story line in Diablo 3 will eventually end and the average player will become bored with the game. Game modes work synergistically with the PvM side of Diablo 3 by encouraging even MORE FARMING, MORE TRADING, ETC. to encourage people to obtain loot to use in these game modes and be more successful.
That's how I see it at least. I sincerely hope Diablo 3 PvP (or competition) IS NOT RELEGATED TO ARENAS. This may be fun for a while. but with no incentive to encourage competition there is simply no substance in the system.
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From the bestbuy Q&A
This ^ makes me very happy
One reason people on the forum go head to head is because competitive can mean one thing for 1 person and another thing for the other.
For person A competitive PVP means a ranking system, serious match making system etc..
For person B competitive PVP means that there is a goal in the pvp system, the arenas have goals (kills etc..).
For Blizzard competitive PVP means the later it seems, which brings the more fun/casual approach and still keeps a goal/structure to the PVP system, which in my opinion still means competitive.
Well Jay stated that we won't see DOTA mode in d3 cause it's not made for d3 (jungling for what? going to base to buy what if we already have gear?) etc etc..
I will be mainly a PvP'er in D3 and i hope (as it has been said before by devs) that we have more pvp modes, like capture the flag etc tec.
In fact they even said the only reason they delayed pvp is cause they had only 3 or so arenas and they were very similar, obviously we will get more arenas with different lay-outs and shit.
Also do not forget we are no longer out after first death in arena like the arenas we saw in blizzcon, we now respawn until a set number of kills or time is reached (so even less balance problems as one can simply study his opponent and make proper adjustments)
Competitive is relative, i for one am gonna compete to win every arena i enter, with or without ranking, ladder, etc...
PvP will be awesome, don't worry ^^
PS:Sorry for wall of text crit xD
Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
Obviously you would alter the format to support the game.. common sense please.
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On PvP:
PvP will take a backseat to PvE BECAUSE Blizzard devs are not willing to have to balance each class in both PvE and PvP in one vs one and 2v2 and so on scenarios. PvP is not objective based scenarios that is still a form of PvE(will get to this later) all PvP stands for is Player vs Player. This entails arena or tournament or duel style battle between 1 or more characters.
The reasons the PvP in the game will not be competetive stands for this reason. It is unreasonable to ask developers to design and balance a skill set that is well balanced in both PvE and PvP. One of the design systems must always take priority OR.........
The other system is simply what Blizzard has already said they will not do... Design skill sets that work differently in pve and pvp. This is because it is completely unreasonable to ask devs to build 2 seperate skill systems for each class for pve and pvp and then balance both of them. It would require another year or two of testing and development time in my opinon.
This is why PvP will not be competetive in D3. Simply because PvP is not going to as balanced so it would not be fair to have a ranking system.
For the PvP enthusiats, Diablo 2 was just like D3 in that it was a PvE oriented game. You diehards made it work, there were tournaments and 3rd party functions to support it. Since Diablo 2 was just as imbalanced as D3 will be..... so my question to you is:
Why can you not build third party support for D3 arena based PvP which is even more support that the simple hostile function and keep your tournaments?
I don't see why there is an outcry. If you expected D3 to focus on PvP I think you were mistaking the series for something it never was intended to be.
On Obj based Scenarios:
Objective based scenarios are a great idea and I as one would love to see them done. Doc it would definitley increase lasting time for the game to add something other than item farming. The problem is if it wasn't designed it more than likely wont be built at least not till expansion. This is because it is not a sub fee based game.
I may be completely off the mark in what i thought they said about pvp and not balancing 2 skill sets for each class. This is simply what i understood from interviews and reading.
See now this is a reasonable response from a PvP enthusiast. We as the consumer have no idea at this point what the PvP patch is going to introduce. It may give the PvPer alot more freedom to establish their own arena or group. This wouldn't take a ton of resources.
I think what Blizzard needs to do is just give the PvP system alot more freedom to create groups or arena systems and pick how you want to organize it. Much like you can pick a custom match in SC2. This will allow the game to keep a PvP system that enthusiasts can enjoy and still not require devs to balance 2 skill sets.
I would believe options for the pvp system are going to be the key to longevity for pvp players.
But I do strongly believe there will not be any systems in place by Blizzard to balance PvP seperate from PvE or ranking/matchmaking system.
Yes, they have "snow" that allows them to balance PvM and PvP separately (to a degree). The reason they are not doing so is because continually balancing PvP costs a lot in development resources and time. The developers do not want to balance two games like that. The developers themselves want to focus their development on PvM, end of story.
It really shouldn't be an argument, as the game's developers specifically do not want to do it...
It doesn't make the game worse because they want to focus on the core of the game (PvM). It just means we're likely to see regular PvM content updates. We'll probably see an expansion within a year. They don't need PvP to maintain longevity, if they can keep coming up with PvM challenges to overcome...and it seems they will do just that.
/thread.
I disagree that they need a ton of PvM content to replace PvP longevity for a lot of people. Sure, the PvP focused players won't care to grind the PvM game a ton beyond beating the game with a couple characters maybe. However, the people that actually buy Diablo 3 for PvM will likely keep playing for a couple years...just off the initial content offered.
Blizzard stated that the randomization of the world increases after the Skeleton King, which means each play~through will be different. They have Inferno which will challenge the players. They have hardcore, when combined with Inferno will offer a near~impossible challenge (from what we've been told).
The game has enough challenge to keep people playing a long time...without PvP. The kicker is...they are adding PvP on top of all that. Sure, they are focusing such PvP away from eSports. However, this new design is actually getting people interested in PvP that wouldn't have PvP'd in Diablo 2. So, it seems that they will get more replay from their average users then they would otherwise.
If what you said was true, no one would be playing D2 still, after all these years. Personally, the MF'ing aspect of Diablo 2 always drew me back to it, even during my hardcore WoW days. You don't need endgame when it's so easy to get a character rushed and for me, it was so unbelievably fun to gear a new character out within a day or two, something that's a bit harder in WoW.
For me, I would be perfectly fine with a slightly improved D2 PvP system. I don't even care about arenas. If anything, the people who are so gung-ho about PvP in WoW were the ones I liked playing with the least, and I wouldn't mind them staying away from D3. I would love nothing more than to fight real players outside of town just like the old days, but I seriously hope they stick to their guns and offer a very subtle PvP presence for this game.
PVP SUCKS WHEN IS ONYXIA