Some socio-psychology about PvE, PvP, competitive, hardcore and casual

  • #1
    This thread intends at teaching people the characteristics of the 2 groups that argue in this section of the forum (and abroad).

    It occurred to me that a lot of people just misunderstand the other half (metaphorically), creating loads of unnecessary discussions, personal attacks and repetition.

    Group 1 : Non-competitive PvE and non-competitive PvP guys
    Also wrongly called "Casual", this group is formed by people who do not like competition.
    It is made of people who play a lot and of people who play less, either hardcore or casual.

    Group 2 : Competitive PvE and competitive PvP guys
    Also wrongly called "Hardcore", this group is formed by people who like competition.
    It is made of people who play a lot and of people who play less, either hardcore or casual.

    Hardcore/Casual
    > Though Hardcore could be sum up to people who play a lot, it's not completely true, as it can also be used to designate people who invest a lot by either theorycrafting, PvPing, PvEing, posting, etc...
    It can also mean "hardcore mode" (permanent death) in D3 (as opposed to "softcore/normal mode" (when you can resurrect)
    As you can see "Hardcore" itself is a portmanteau word that can seriously mislead conversations and provoke big misunderstanding when used.
    > Though Casual could be sum up to people who don't play a lot, it's not completely true, as it can also be used to designate people who do not invest either in theorycrafting, PvPing, PvEing, posting, etc...
    As you can see "Casual" itself is a portmanteau word that can seriously mislead conversations and provoke big misunderstanding when used.
    > Funny thing is you can be a hardcore theorycrafter, casual at PvP (= don't invest a lot) and who don't play that much. You quickly understand that this player cannot be called neither "hardcore" nor "casual".

    Common misconception (work in progress)
    > "you guys are carebears" : said by a competitive guy to a non-competitie guy. He simply do not understand that some people do not like competition.
    > "you arrogant" : said by a non-competitive guy to a competitive guy. He simply answers.
    > "you just like to show off & brag" : said by a non-competitive guy. He simply does not understand that some people like competition.
    > "you guys bring negativity" : said by a non-competitive guy who do not understand being called a noob because he is not interested in competition.


    If you guys have other commonly heard sentences that can help me explain better how these 2 different groups simply badly understand each other, please contribute.

    Conclusion
    There is no need to be angry at each other. People have different ways of enjoying their games. It's fine. Not everybody is like me. I can accept that people can be different and being fine with this at the same time.
  • #2
    > "the REAL Diablo fans" : said by a competitive guy who exclude all fans that do not play like him (competitively).

    I believe that was said in a reference to the lack of people having played the previous games in the series rather than how they intended to play D3.


    As for the term casual:
    Casual refers to something that happends irregular/On occasion and I blieve it is also defined as 'shallow'.
    Meaning that a Casual player would be someone who simply logs on and plays when he wants to, he has no set time to login and play(for example: raiding in WoW.), he would also not spend any time theorycrafting, min-maxing or similiar activities.
    If we then thereby go with the actual definition of the word casual, anyone who does play at a regular basis with a reoccuring schedule that he/she plays, would be considered hardcore, as you say however, it would also apply to a person who barely plays at all but spends his time theorycrafting / min-maxing instead.

    The only definition of hardcore in D3 as I see it, is wether you actually play hardcore or not. If you're strictly playing normal/softcore, then you can't really be considered as a hardcore player.

    Either way, cookies for everyone.
  • #3

    > "the REAL Diablo fans" : said by a competitive guy who exclude all fans that do not play like him (competitively).

    I believe that was said in a reference to the lack of people having played the previous games in the series rather than how they intended to play D3.


    corrected (removed). It indeed had nothing to do directly with the topic.


    As for the term casual:
    Casual refers to something that happends irregular/On occasion and I blieve it is also defined as 'shallow'.
    Meaning that a Casual player would be someone who simply logs on and plays when he wants to, he has no set time to login and play(for example: raiding in WoW.), he would also not spend any time theorycrafting, min-maxing or similiar activities.
    If we then thereby go with the actual definition of the word casual, anyone who does play at a regular basis with a reoccuring schedule that he/she plays, would be considered hardcore, as you say however, it would also apply to a person who barely plays at all but spends his time theorycrafting / min-maxing instead.

    The only definition of hardcore in D3 as I see it, is wether you actually play hardcore or not. If you're strictly playing normal/softcore, then you can't really be considered as a hardcore player.

    Either way, cookies for everyone.


    I wanted to get the most general description by not sticking to WoW definition, which implies too many rules.
    I add "hardcore" as opposed to "softcore" too, thanks.
  • #4
    The root of the problem is that we are ANTAGONISTIC by nature. WE ALL THINK THE OTHER GUY IS TRYING TO TAKE WHAT WE HAVE on a subconscious level. It may sounds dumb, but this applies even to discussion about an online game and what it's developers should cater to.

    The funny thing is, if we could learn to be SYNERGISTIC, then everyone could have what they want and we would have a fantastic all-around game. Luckily the devs of Diablo 3 ignore most of the extremist and actually seems to be developing the game in a way that will provide the most fun to the greatest number of people. Kudos devs.
    To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.

    http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
  • #5

    The root of the problem is that we are ANTAGONISTIC by nature. WE ALL THINK THE OTHER GUY IS TRYING TO TAKE WHAT WE HAVE on a subconscious level. It may sounds dumb, but this applies even to discussion about an online game and what it's developers should cater to.

    The funny thing is, if we could learn to be SYNERGISTIC, then everyone could have what they want and we would have a fantastic all-around game. Luckily the devs of Diablo 3 ignore most of the extremist and actually seems to be developing the game in a way that will provide the most fun to the greatest number of people. Kudos devs.


    The problem here is that you should share your stuff and leave my stuff alone.
  • #6
    I have heard countless of times: "I have registered long before you and have 10 times more posts, I think I´m right in this conversation"

    Like post count somehow makes someone smarter. But I dont really think this fits in this thread.

    Another one is D1/D2 veterans vs. New generation. I think everyone knows these people. :)
  • #7
    You threw the term "psychology" inthere to make it seem more legitimate didn't you? ¬.¬
  • #8

    You threw the term "psychology" inthere to make it seem more legitimate didn't you? ¬.¬


    It's just science.
  • #9
    *facepalms*

    What part of this is science? This is at most a hypotheses. You can't just form a hypotheses based on an observation and say "Well that's what I saw, so it must be true!" This is as scientific as horoscopes.

    ...everyone thinks they're a psychologist these days... xD
  • #10
    ^ My response was just a joke. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56pVgyX3iqg
  • #11
    Darn... well I stepped into that one, consider me trolled ~.~
  • #12

    You threw the term "psychology" inthere to make it seem more legitimate didn't you? ¬.¬


    I don't see how this is helping this conversation. I'll continue this in private with you.
  • #13


    You threw the term "psychology" inthere to make it seem more legitimate didn't you? ¬.¬


    I don't see how this is helping this conversation. I'll continue this in private with you.


    It's helping people to move on from your troll thread. :D
  • #14



    You threw the term "psychology" inthere to make it seem more legitimate didn't you? ¬.¬


    I don't see how this is helping this conversation. I'll continue this in private with you.


    It's helping people to move on from your troll thread. :D


    It's definitely not a troll (ok maybe the title).
    Most of discussions here never end up because people argue with the same words while putting different things behind. I have few interest in pointless discussion, that's why I try to come to agreement on the terms so that we can discuss more substance than form and come to results. (It's called Dialectic and has enabled people of going past simple "point of view exchange" for about 2500 years).
  • #15
    There is also a common misconception that Diablo 3 is similar to WoW. Many PvE players see Diablo 3 as something WoW should have been, but was ruined (in their eyes) by trying to balance the game for e-sport. People tend to assume it's MMORPG and it's community based game. And it hardly can be, when you play with max 3 more players other than yourself and you can participate in chats on more global scale only while not playing.
  • #16

    There is also a common misconception that Diablo 3 is similar to WoW. Many PvE players see Diablo 3 as something WoW should have been, but was ruined (in their eyes) by trying to balance the game for e-sport. People tend to assume it's MMORPG and it's community based game. And it hardly can be, when you play with max 3 more players other than yourself and you can participate in chats on more global scale only while not playing.


    The 2 games are almost identical tho, just look at this list:
    D3
    - Kill monsters
    - Loot items
    - Gold is the currency
    - Crafting
    - Class based
    - has a Roleplaying story
    - Bosses
    - Different tiers of loot
    - You can play with other players
    - You can talk to other players in the game
    - You gain levels
    - Different abilities based on your class and level
    - Gems
    - Runes

    Now look at WoW:
    - Kill monsters
    - Loot items
    - Gold is the currency
    - Crafting
    - Class based
    - has a Roleplaying story
    - Bosses
    - Different tiers of loot
    - You can play with other players
    - You can talk to other players in the game
    - You gain levels
    - Different abilities based on your class and level
    - Gems
    - Runes


    it is obvious that D3 is nothing more than a new expansion for WoW, masqueraded as a co-op hack and slash rpg.
  • #17


    There is also a common misconception that Diablo 3 is similar to WoW. Many PvE players see Diablo 3 as something WoW should have been, but was ruined (in their eyes) by trying to balance the game for e-sport. People tend to assume it's MMORPG and it's community based game. And it hardly can be, when you play with max 3 more players other than yourself and you can participate in chats on more global scale only while not playing.


    The 2 games are almost identical tho, just look at this list:
    D3
    - Kill monsters
    - Loot items
    - Gold is the currency
    - Crafting
    - Class based
    - has a Roleplaying story
    - Bosses
    - Different tiers of loot
    - You can play with other players
    - You can talk to other players in the game
    - You gain levels
    - Different abilities based on your class and level
    - Gems
    - Runes

    Now look at WoW:
    - Kill monsters
    - Loot items
    - Gold is the currency
    - Crafting
    - Class based
    - has a Roleplaying story
    - Bosses
    - Different tiers of loot
    - You can play with other players
    - You can talk to other players in the game
    - You gain levels
    - Different abilities based on your class and level
    - Gems
    - Runes


    it is obvious that D3 is nothing more than a new expansion for WoW, masqueraded as a co-op hack and slash rpg.


  • #18

    This thread intends at teaching people the characteristics of the 2 groups that argue in this section of the forum (and abroad).

    It occurred to me that a lot of people just misunderstand the other half (metaphorically), creating loads of unnecessary discussions, personal attacks and repetition.
    ...
    If you guys have other commonly heard sentences that can help me explain better how these 2 different groups simply badly understand each other, please contribute.

    Conclusion
    There is no need to be angry at each other. People have different ways of enjoying their games. It's fine. Not everybody is like me. I can accept that people can be different and being fine with this at the same time.


    Good idea, not sure I would categorize all the people on this forum as belonging to one of two camps and mindsets. That's oversimplifying it a bit.

    The main reason people misunderstand each other, not just on forums but in the world in general, is cause we either fail to communicate what we are meaning or the recipient is not able to understand what is being said. The only real solution to this problem is to improve your own language skills in the language you wish to communicate in, and hope that any recipient understands you.

    Luckily today, most of us have the Internet A wonderful tool for communication. Since I'm from Sweden, and English is not my native language I will usually use the wonderful dictionary.com when I want to check up on words I don't understand. For example, lets take the 2 camps you wish to place people in and what the words for them mean and how I personally relate them to D3 (or gaming in general):

    Casual
    1. happening by chance; fortuitous: a casual meeting.
    2. without definite or serious intention; careless or offhand; passing: a casual remark.
    3. seeming or tending to be indifferent to what is happening; apathetic; unconcerned: a casual, nonchalant air.
    4. appropriate for wear or use on informal occasions; not dressy: casual clothes; casual wear.
    5. irregular;occasional: a casual visitor.

    Hardcore
    1. unswervingly committed; uncompromising; dedicated: a hard-core segregationist.
    2. pruriently explicit; graphically depicted: hard-core pornography. Compare soft-core.
    3. being so without apparent change or remedy; chronic: hard-core inflation; hard-core unemployment.

    Just looking at the emboldened parts above, which are the ones I find most appropriately applies to gaming/gamers, I find a large amounts of different personal traits that I have seen in players throughout my gaming lifetime.

    without definite or serious intention
    This is definitely one of the cornerstones to calling someone a casual player.

    seeming or tending to be indifferent to what is happening
    Someone not caring one way or another to what's going on around them, is a casual player in my mind.

    irregular;occasional
    Someone that just "logs in" every now and then, and has some fun, is also a casual player imo.

    unswervingly committed; uncompromising; dedicated
    Traits I would apply to someone I consider a Hardcore player (not to be confused with player playing HC).

    being so without apparent change or remedy; chronic
    Fanatical traits that I have seen in Hardcore players as well.

    Nowhere above, in these definition of casual or hardcore, can they in any way shape or form be directly related to any of the following words:

    incompetent
    skillful
    kind
    arrogant
    helpful
    disadvantageous

    So personally I don't see any conflicting logic in the follow statements:

    A helpful casual player that is quite kind but completely incompetent in his class building skills.
    A arrogant casual player that is very disadvantageous to play with cause of his lack in skills.
    A skillful player that is not very hardcore in D3, cause he likes to play a lot of different games.
    A helpful player that is very committed to the groups progress, but can't play all the time we want him to.
    A kind hardcore player that is not very helpful with providing skill tips for my class, as he lacks competence with it.
    An incompetent hardcore player that doesn't see how helpful it would be to the group to add this particular skilled casual player.

    I wouldn't attempt to place everyone in one out of two groups. Use the words for what they were meant to. They have definitions, look them up.


    The root of the problem is that we are ANTAGONISTIC by nature. WE ALL THINK THE OTHER GUY IS TRYING TO TAKE WHAT WE HAVE on a subconscious level. It may sounds dumb, but this applies even to discussion about an online game and what it's developers should cater to.

    The funny thing is, if we could learn to be SYNERGISTIC, then everyone could have what they want and we would have a fantastic all-around game. Luckily the devs of Diablo 3 ignore most of the extremist and actually seems to be developing the game in a way that will provide the most fun to the greatest number of people. Kudos devs.


    A good example of poor word choices resulting in an antagonistic stance. The underlined words caused me at least to take an adversarial stance to the statements that followed. First one, cause I do not wish to be in a group associated with a word that have a very negative feeling to me. Second, cause I don't presume we all think alike on anything. See what I did there... the word presume, changes it all ^^

    I just kept his second paragraph cause I liked what he said in the emboldened part ^^

    Edit: Some weird coloring.
    Winter is coming...
  • #19

    it is obvious that D3 is nothing more than a new expansion for WoW, masqueraded as a co-op hack and slash rpg.


    I guess then, that you applied your logic to D2 as well. Do you feel like WoW is an expansion for Diablo 2?
  • #20


    it is obvious that D3 is nothing more than a new expansion for WoW, masqueraded as a co-op hack and slash rpg.


    I guess then, that you applied your logic to D2 as well. Do you feel like WoW is an expansion for Diablo 2?


    Looks like you and Doctor Sheldon Cooper has something in common! :)
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