How to tune Private Arenas or Games with PvP so that Blizz accepts it ?

  • #1
    Hi,
    1-Blizzard stated their goal of D3 not becoming a competitive PvP game.
    2-They are fine with it being a casual PvP game (so that game balance is focused on PvE).
    3-They also said that they are looking at how to implement Private Games with PvP (duel) or Private Arenas provided it does follow their goal.

    The question is now :
    How to tune Private Arenas or Private Games (with duel or other PvP) to prevent them from being used to develop parallel competitive system ?


    The goal of this thread is to stress out systems to the extreme to test their ability to resist being turned into competitive parallel oraganizations.


    edit : updated example :
    We can start by stating a few ideas :
    - 4v4 duel arenas
    - no record whatsoever (=no proof) (fraps argument)
    - no official spectator support (= no proof beside the participants) (though the screen could be streamed, but more tedious and less widescale)
    - a lobby for game creation, but friends invite only (to make it tedious to use on a wide scale)

    Though restrictive, this system seems strong enough to me to prevent being abused into a wide parallel competitive PvP system (it can be used very simply over some ventrilo to organize small friendy contest among friends or test some new stuff). It could be a first step while we think of better systems that allow more freedom while guaranteeing Blizzard's goals.


    Now, I'm calling for more brains to help us as a community to come up with good or innovative solutions that will allow fun in PvP while maintaining the game PvE-centered, based on the example above or not.
  • #2

    Hi,
    1-Blizzard stated their goal of D3 not becoming a competitive PvP game.
    2-They are fine with it being a casual PvP game (so that game balance is focused on PvE).
    3-They also said that they are looking at how to implement Private Games with PvP (duel) or Private Arenas provided it does follow their goal.

    The question is now :
    How to tune Private Arenas or Private Games (with duel or other PvP) to prevent them from being used to develop parallel competitive system ?


    The goal of this thread is to stress out systems to the extreme to test their ability to resist being turned into competitive parallel oraganizations.

    We can start by stating a few ideas :
    - only 1v1 duel arenas (1v2 could be used to invite a judge/spectator)
    - no record whatsoever (=no proof)
    - no spectator (= no proof beside the participants)
    - no lobby, only friends invite (to make it tedious to use on a wide scale)

    Though restrictive, this system seems strong enough to me to prevent being abused into a wide parallel competitive PvP system (it can be sued very simply over some ventrilo to organize small friendy contest among friends or test some new stuff). It could be a first step while we think of better systems that allow more freedom while guaranteeing Blizzard's goals.

    Now, I'm calling for more brains to help us as a community to come up with good or innovative solutions that will allow fun in PvP while maintaining the game PvE-centered.

    Well to start,
    • There will always be recording with FRAPS or other software. They don't have to waste their time or resources developing a recording option.
    • Same goes for lobby, it could and should be invite only status.
    • As far as spectators, again it is a good idea but not really required. Most high end duels in D2 ended up with limit of 2 people in game so there was no external forces that could cause lag.

    I am fine with the system you just provided, only thing I would change is
    • Option to allow up to 4v4
    • And allow team changes based on party invites at end of a match if wanted.
    It keeps it fun, doesn't effect PvM anymore then "casual" arena will and everyone gets what they want.
  • #3
    I don't see any restriction that can prevent this to be honest. The system you suggest is ok for simple dueling with a friend. As Adon said before it will not stop devoted competitive players, stream/video will do. Anything that will allow for people to join same game on a different side will allow competitive games.

    It really amazes me, why people try so hard to stop some amount of players to create their own place in the game. If Blizzard stays on their goals and keep custom games as modes for players to do what they want I hardly see any problem. Just because someone created dota for warcraft using a map making tool made by Blizzard for that game it doesn't mean that Blizzard have/need to change their game for that, or even support that.
  • #4

    I don't see any restriction that can prevent this to be honest. The system you suggest is ok for simple dueling with a friend. As Adon said before it will not stop devoted competitive players, stream/video will do. Anything that will allow for people to join same game on a different side will allow competitive games.

    It really amazes me, why people try so hard to stop some amount of players to create their own place in the game. If Blizzard stays on their goals and keep custom games as modes for players to do what they want I hardly see any problem. Just because someone created dota for warcraft using a map making tool made by Blizzard for that game it doesn't mean that Blizzard have/need to change their game for that, or even support that.

    Just read your sig, guessing that came from his latest interview. I like that quote, and one of the ways to really make that quote a reality is with a private system like this. It allows people to play how they want, gives people options like in Diablo.
  • #5
    I'm honestly not sure your solution really offers a system that really is usable for much. The only thing this would be usable for would be dueling. I suppose it is a start, but I'm not sure it really inhibits the competitive environment as much as you hope. I like the thread though and hope we can come to a solution that would be positive for the community.

    ecutruin +9000
  • #6

    It really amazes me, why people try so hard to stop some amount of players to create their own place in the game. If Blizzard stays on their goals and keep custom games as modes for players to do what they want I hardly see any problem. Just because someone created dota for warcraft using a map making tool made by Blizzard for that game it doesn't mean that Blizzard have/need to change their game for that, or even support that.

    As you said "someone" created DOTA, making its balance his responsibility.
    On the other side "Blizzard" will create PvP, which places the burden of balancing on their side. They want to make sure people do not get the false impression that they support a competitive system whatsoever, while willing to enable PvP for fun. (because it is)

    That's exactly why they want to restrict PvP to non-competitive, and that's exactly why we're having this thread : to find a way that would help Blizzard to come up with the funniest PvP for us that would prevent being turned into a competitive system.

    @Adon : I've though deeper into the "4v4" and, though it will require some sort of lobby, it's still good as long as you can only invite friends, which is the biggest safety system imo, as you said.
    I didn't understand "allow team changes based on party invite at the end of the match". Could you develop this idea ?

    edit : i've edited the 1st post to update changes that we agree as reasonable
  • #7

    As you said "someone" created DOTA, making its balance his responsibility.
    On the other side "Blizzard" will create PvP, which places the burden of balancing on their side. They want to make sure people do not get the false impression that they support a competitive system whatsoever, while willing to enable PvP for fun. (because it is)

    That's exactly why they want to restrict PvP to non-competitive, and that's exactly why we're having this thread : to find a way that would help Blizzard to come up with the funniest PvP for us that would prevent being turned into a competitive system.


    Maybe you missed my point here, so I'll try to explain it. I see custom arenas as a tool like map-making tool. If someone want to create a ladder on their own website and gather some part of the community to participate in that, it's not Blizzard responsibility. If someone wants to host a tournament using custom arena, it's again not Blizzard responsibility, because tournaments will have it's own rules for that. As long as Blizzard will not have ladder mode made inside the game or official tournaments, they are not supporting competitive play in any way.

    Edit:
    As far as the current idea in your first post goes, there is a way to allow spectators in the form of ghost if it's more then 1v1 (just kill them before the match starts). Unless dead players will be kicked from the game, but that is very brutal way to solve this.
  • #8


    It really amazes me, why people try so hard to stop some amount of players to create their own place in the game. If Blizzard stays on their goals and keep custom games as modes for players to do what they want I hardly see any problem. Just because someone created dota for warcraft using a map making tool made by Blizzard for that game it doesn't mean that Blizzard have/need to change their game for that, or even support that.

    As you said "someone" created DOTA, making its balance his responsibility.
    On the other side "Blizzard" will create PvP, which places the burden of balancing on their side. They want to make sure people do not get the false impression that they support a competitive system whatsoever, while willing to enable PvP for fun. (because it is)

    That's exactly why they want to restrict PvP to non-competitive, and that's exactly why we're having this thread : to find a way that would help Blizzard to come up with the funniest PvP for us that would prevent being turned into a competitive system.

    @Adon : I've though deeper into the "4v4" and, though it will require some sort of lobby, it's still good as long as you can only invite friends, which is the biggest safety system imo, as you said.
    I didn't understand "allow team changes based on party invite at the end of the match". Could you develop this idea ?

    edit : i've edited the 1st post to update changes that we agree as reasonable

    Well lets draw a scenario here.
    It is 4v4 by invite only, we have our match first to 10 kills or 5 minutes or whatever.
    Match ends, where do we go from here? Does it auto start a new match? Does it drop game? Does it allow for players to jump to the other team? Does it allow for players to swap characters maybe? There should be a grace period or give the creator a button to say go, so you have time in between matches to maybe rearrange teams, swap characters, swap gear or skills.
  • #9


    I didn't understand "allow team changes based on party invite at the end of the match". Could you develop this idea ?

    Well lets draw a scenario here.
    It is 4v4 by invite only, we have our match first to 10 kills or 5 minutes or whatever.
    Match ends, where do we go from here? Does it auto start a new match? Does it drop game? Does it allow for players to jump to the other team? Does it allow for players to swap characters maybe? There should be a grace period or give the creator a button to say go, so you have time in between matches to maybe rearrange teams, swap characters, swap gear or skills.


    Could it be just return to lobby with teams as they were ? In the lobby you could swap team so it give you the opportunity to change team after let's say 10kills or 5 minutes.
  • #10


    As you said "someone" created DOTA, making its balance his responsibility.
    On the other side "Blizzard" will create PvP, which places the burden of balancing on their side. They want to make sure people do not get the false impression that they support a competitive system whatsoever, while willing to enable PvP for fun. (because it is)

    That's exactly why they want to restrict PvP to non-competitive, and that's exactly why we're having this thread : to find a way that would help Blizzard to come up with the funniest PvP for us that would prevent being turned into a competitive system.


    Maybe you missed my point here, so I'll try to explain it. I see custom arenas as a tool like map-making tool. If someone want to create a ladder on their own website and gather some part of the community to participate in that, it's not Blizzard responsibility. If someone wants to host a tournament using custom arena, it's again not Blizzard responsibility, because tournaments will have it's own rules for that. As long as Blizzard will not have ladder mode made inside the game or official tournaments, they are not supporting competitive play in any way.

    Edit:
    As far as the current idea in your first post goes, there is a way to allow spectators in the form of ghost if it's more then 1v1 (just kill them before the match starts). Unless dead players will be kicked from the game, but that is very brutal way to solve this.


    Ok I get it.
    I suppose those restrictions are indeed enough to prevent those players from thinking Blizzard should start balancing PvP because their unofficial tournament was dominated by mages (wow trauma talking here ? ^^).
    I also think that BECAUSE of unbalancing it will stay more of a casual-fun activity rather than a serious one.

    I would add :
    - no display of the outcome of the match on the lobby simply a "YOU WIN" or "YOU LOSE" display for 3 seconds just like the "YOU FINISHED DIABLO BETA" message.

    ----------------
    Maybe the real question here would be :
    - is there any way to prevent players that desperately crave to show off their pvp/skill/stuff superiority to everyone to whine endlessly ?

    They hide behind "world PvP is Diablo's essence" or "it allowed so much replayability" and aren't objective enough to understand their true motivation (or they wouldn't be whining, obviously).

    Anyway, I feel pretty happy about the outcome of those discussion. I think I really understood Blizzard's problem better altogether with their will to really develop a great PvP system because it's a lot of fun. Thank you guys for your open mind and calm discussions. (+I think the system as we described it feels pretty safe, I don't see much to add)
  • #11
    - is there any way to prevent players that desperately crave to show off their pvp/skill/stuff superiority to everyone to whine endlessly ?

    Nop, won't matter if you even remove PvP, because PvE programers can be that elitist too. I think it's good to educate the playerbase on blizzard stance (they won't balance the game around pvp), but i don't find it good to limit your customization options on custom games, because i see them as useful tools (except stopping progression there, i find that a good thing to don't become exploitable ofc).

    Anyways, you can't stop them from whining about blizzard not caring enough about D3 pvp, even if they stated it. They are free to be entlited to their opinion, as much as you are.

    I would add :
    - no display of the outcome of the match on the lobby simply a "YOU WIN" or "YOU LOSE" display for 3 seconds just like the "YOU FINISHED DIABLO BETA" message.

    Erhm.... what do you mean exactly ? Scoreboard with damage done etc ? Or just remove that entirely. If that's the case, i don't see the point.
  • #12

    - is there any way to prevent players that desperately crave to show off their pvp/skill/stuff superiority to everyone to whine endlessly ?

    Nop, won't matter if you even remove PvP, because PvE programers can be that elitist too. I think it's good to educate the playerbase on blizzard stance (they won't balance the game around pvp), but i don't find it good to limit your customization options on custom games, because i see them as useful tools (except stopping progression there, i find that a good thing to don't become exploitable ofc).


    Didn't understand you here.


    Anyways, you can't stop them from whining about blizzard not caring enough about D3 pvp, even if they stated it. They are free to be entlited to their opinion, as much as you are.



    I would add :
    - no display of the outcome of the match on the lobby simply a "YOU WIN" or "YOU LOSE" display for 3 seconds just like the "YOU FINISHED DIABLO BETA" message.

    Erhm.... what do you mean exactly ? Scoreboard with damage done etc ? Or just remove that entirely. If that's the case, i don't see the point.


    Yes : no scoreboard.
    As soon as there is a scoreboard, people play for the sheer satisfaction of being 1st (even though it wouldn't serve the winning purpose).
    You destroyed the opposing team, you get a "YOU WIN" message, then you go back to the private arena creation screen.

    No incentive to master a scoreboard (numbers killed, damage done and shit like that) = no incentive to play the "sub-game" of dealing more damage or landing more killing blows = you play the game for winning and as a team because all your useless personal achievements won't be seen by anyone.
  • #13
    This somewhat remembers me to the inquisition.
  • #14

    This somewhat remembers me to the inquisition.


    Can you develop by drawing a comparison ?
    Attacks and non argumented statements will not bring the discussion forward.
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