Have you ever played a game called WoW? If not let me give you the short version, after 6 years they still haven't balanced PvP and PvE together. Although Blizzard has "tweaked" some abilities to have PvP only stats (this is what pro PvP balance people want) in recent years, its sill far from being balanced in either realm. I like the tweaked approach, I'd like to ASSUME this is an easy method but I'm not a game developer/programmer so I can't say.
I have played WoW. WoW didn't separate PvP and PvE abilities. They tried to balance both together, which is absolutely impossible. Hell, it's pretty much impossible to ever "balance" an mmo-style game with virtually infinite gear sets and skill combinations, but that's not the point. Balance will never be perfect, screw it. WE WANT TO HAVE FUN. Using balance as an excuse to shaft PvP for those of us who enjoy it is just ridiculous!
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
You are asking for a PVP team, that they already have, to do some tweaks, as they already are doing, to correct the blatant imbalances that depend on features that can be corrected without impact in the PVE, what they already will do.
I have played WoW. WoW didn't separate PvP and PvE abilities. They tried to balance both together, which is absolutely impossible. Hell, it's pretty much impossible to ever "balance" an mmo-style game with virtually infinite gear sets and skill combinations, but that's not the point. Balance will never be perfect, screw it. WE WANT TO HAVE FUN. Using balance as an excuse to shaft PvP for those of us who enjoy it is just ridiculous!
PvP is fun and I'm sure after future patch's and expansions it will get better. It's still better than what D2 had to offer (just my opinion). I'm sorry I don't grasp your concept of treating PvP and PvE skills differently... your using the exact same abilities so how can you separate them for balance?
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
I have played WoW. WoW didn't separate PvP and PvE abilities. They tried to balance both together, which is absolutely impossible. Hell, it's pretty much impossible to ever "balance" an mmo-style game with virtually infinite gear sets and skill combinations, but that's not the point. Balance will never be perfect, screw it. WE WANT TO HAVE FUN. Using balance as an excuse to shaft PvP for those of us who enjoy it is just ridiculous!
PvP is fun and I'm sure after future patch's and expansions it will get better. It's still better than what D2 had to offer (just my opinion). I'm sorry I don't grasp your concept of treating PvP and PvE skills differently... your using the exact same abilities so how can you separate them for balance?
My point is that PvP is severely lacking thus far into the game, which is a huge disservice to what this game could be. We've seen LMS arena already, so we know that the devs were contemplating this at one point.
The lead dev. (Jay Wilson) has stated in an interview I have posted multiple times that there is ALREADY a system in place to relegate PvP abilities to PvP, and PvE to PvE.
So, let me get this straight...
You are asking for a PVP team, that they already have, to do some tweaks, as they already are doing, to correct the blatant imbalances that depend on features that can be corrected without impact in the PVE, what they already will do.
I'm asking for a respectable PvP system, somewhere in the middle of E-sports and mindless, uncompetitive, zerg PvP that we have now. I'm asking for OPTIONS. I'm asking for FUN and REPLAY value once you've slain every monster and you're bored as hell (because you will get there at some point). We know that it can be done. We've seen it. It doesn't have to be perfectly balanced.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
We know that it can be done. We've seen it. It doesn't have to be perfectly balanced.
What games would you use as an example there?
Are any of them analogous to D3?
I'm referring to LMS PvP, which we've seen in video footage.
But you're talking about pvp that isn't being implemented. That pvp is already in the game. It's been developed and it's not being removed. What's being argued here is that pvp should be further developed (to what end I suppose is up for continued debate). I'm asking you what you see as that end. In what games you see a similar end. And ultimately how you see continuity between that game and where D3 pvp could/should end up.
My point is that PvP is severely lacking thus far into the game, which is a huge disservice to what this game could be. We've seen LMS arena already, so we know that the devs were contemplating this at one point.
The lead dev. (Jay Wilson) has stated in an interview I have posted multiple times that there is ALREADY a system in place to relegate PvP abilities to PvP, and PvE to PvE.
Okay I watched the video and were talking about the exact same thing. The tweaking that is being done in WoW is the same in the D3 approach of (specific PvP stats). This will likely reach your desire of reasonable PvP/PvE balance but I still think that may stay a hope/dream, we'll have to see.
Yes PvP could use more attention, you don't like it, wait for the next few patches they are going to do something at some point. People will get bored of end game eventually and blizzard is good for providing additional content and changes to keep user interest... I'm sorry that your going to have to wait.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
I'm asking for a respectable PvP system, somewhere in the middle of E-sports and mindless, uncompetitive, zerg PvP that we have now. I'm asking for OPTIONS. I'm asking for FUN and REPLAY value once you've slain every monster and you're bored as hell (because you will get there at some point). We know that it can be done. We've seen it. It doesn't have to be perfectly balanced.
What do you mean with "respectable PVP system"? We don't "have" anything right now, how can you be sure that the PVP will be "mindless, uncompetitive, zerg PVP"?
I really think that PVP will be quite good, they just said they wouldn't balance it to be an e-sport, but they will still make improvements to it. And I think the expansions will bring new features regarding PVP.
But you're talking about pvp that isn't being implemented. That pvp is already in the game. It's been developed and it's not being removed. What's being argued here is that pvp should be further developed (to what end I suppose is up for continued debate). I'm asking you what you see as that end. In what games you see a similar end. And ultimately how you see continuity between that game and where D3 pvp could/should end up.
Here is exactly what I, personally, would like to see. This isn't set in stone by any means, and I'm 100% sure the developers could come up with far superior ideas than me. Tell me this doesn't sound incredible for the game:
1. A public ladder system for both TDM and LMS.
2. Unique competition modes, i.e.:
- Hoard Mode - teams of characters compete to hold off hoards of monsters. Whoever is over-run first loses.
- Content Racing - teams of characters compete PvM content (PvErs should love this!)
- "Objective" PvP - "Hold this point for x amount of time," "Find this chest first (i.e. treasure hunting but competitive," "Capture this point first" (CTF), protect the NPC, or VIP.
- Unique prestige awards for winners of all of these different formats. I.e. Titles, paraphernalia, aesthetic rewards, ears, etc. (I'm sure infinitely awesome things could be thought up that don't award gear but keep people competing)
- Winner takes all - Items or gold is put up for grabs to the winner. Would be amazing if the public had the ability to bid on the winner as well. This should be an OPTION for every format. If you don't want to participate, great, but for those that do it should be there.
3. 1 on 1 dueling system with competitive ladder support.
Probably more that I can't think of in 5 minutes.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
- Hoard Mode - teams of characters compete to hold off hoards of monsters. Whoever is over-run first loses.
- Content Racing - teams of characters compete PvM content (PvErs should love this!)
- Winner takes all - Items or gold is put up for grabs to the winner. Would be amazing if the public had the ability to bid on the winner as well. This should be an OPTION for every format. You don't HAVE to participate.
- Capture the flag.
- Protect the NPC, or VIP.
- Unique prestige awards for winners of all of these different formats. I.e. Titles, paraphernalia, aesthetic rewards, ears, etc. (I'm sure infinitely awesome things could be thought up that don't award gear but keep people competing)
3. 1 on 1 dueling system with competitive ladder support.
Probably more that I can't think of in 5 minutes.
1- They clearly stated that the decision of not having a ladder is because that would make the game feel e-sport-like. They don't want to encourage that kind of thought, that is a design decision, not a thing that they won't do due time.
2- As I said, I expect to see improvements in PVP in the next expansions. While I don't think this "feels like Diablo", maybe the fanbase doesn't and there's room for that. But time will tell. Personally, IMO, this feels a lot like Magicka, SC2 and WC3 custom games, and such.
3- Same explanation of 1. They clearly stated that they DONT want people to think PVP is for competition, it is only for fun.
But you're talking about pvp that isn't being implemented. That pvp is already in the game. It's been developed and it's not being removed. What's being argued here is that pvp should be further developed (to what end I suppose is up for continued debate). I'm asking you what you see as that end. In what games you see a similar end. And ultimately how you see continuity between that game and where D3 pvp could/should end up.
Here is exactly what I, personally, would like to see. This isn't set in stone by any means, and I'm 100% sure the developers could come up with far superior ideas than me. Tell me this doesn't sound incredible for the game:
1. A public ladder system for both TDM and LMS.
2. Unique competition modes, i.e.:
- Hoard Mode - teams of characters compete to hold off hoards of monsters. Whoever is over-run first loses.
- Content Racing - teams of characters compete PvM content (PvErs should love this!)
- Capture the flag.
- Protect the NPC, or VIP.
- Unique prestige awards for winners of all of these different formats. I.e. Titles, paraphernalia, aesthetic rewards, ears, etc. (I'm sure infinitely awesome things could be thought up that don't award gear but keep people competing)
- Winner takes all - Items or gold is put up for grabs to the winner. Would be amazing if the public had the ability to bid on the winner as well. This should be an OPTION for every format. If you don't want to participate, great, but for those that do it should be there.
3. 1 on 1 dueling system with competitive ladder support.
Probably more that I can't think of in 5 minutes.
But you made it sound as though the ideal level of pvp development (presumably what you're talking about in this latest post) exists already in another game. What games are we drawing on (obviously mmo's, fps, etc) to make this list? And as I continued on to ask, what kind of relationship do those games have with D3?
I mean, it's all well and good to pick out an aspect of one game that you like, but we should pay some attention to how we adapt these things cross-title. Can some of these things mesh with the "Jay," view of D3. Are some of these things possible, but simply out of the ideology of the game? Are some of them just hard to fit into an ARPG by it's vary nature?
ex.
-Ladder is one of those things that could obvious come and go easily.
-Unique modes are probably more interdependant on the code and might not be so easily put in.
But you made it sound as though the ideal level of pvp development (presumably what you're talking about in this latest post) exists already in another game. What games are we drawing on (obviously mmo's, fps, etc) to make this list? And as I continued on to ask, what kind of relationship do those games have with D3?
I mean, it's all well and good to pick out an aspect of one game that you like, but we should pay some attention to how we adapt these things cross-title.
I've already addressed that point. I was specifically referring to the LMS format that we had already seen when stating "we've seen it." You simply took that out of context.
The closest model we've seen is WoW, where PvE and PvP abilities were not separated. That game turned out pretty fantastic, although I'm sure people will find a way to bash it. I'm simply suggesting that more support for competition in the game will pay off exponentially in terms of replay value, fun, and therefore customer satisfaction. I've stated my points many, many times. It's very easy to be negative and poke holes in ideas. It requires no imagination, simply a cynical attitude. If you're happy with how the game is, i.e. no competition that matter and a simple PvE grind for gear, just sit back, relax and wait for release. I'm not suggesting anything that will affect your enjoyment of the game, because everything I've suggested should be optional.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
I've already addressed that point. I was specifically referring to the LMS format that we had already seen when stating "we've seen it." You simply took that out of context.
It was not out of context based on what you had quoted.
The closest model we've seen is WoW, where PvE and PvP abilities were not separated. That game turned out pretty fantastic, although I'm sure people will find a way to bash it. I'm simply suggesting that more support for competition in the game will pay off exponentially in terms of replay value, fun, and therefore customer satisfaction. I've stated my points many, many times. It's very easy to be negative and poke holes in ideas. It requires no imagination, simply a cynical attitude. If you're happy with how the game is, i.e. no competition that matter and a simple PvE grind for gear, just sit back, relax and wait for release. I'm not suggesting anything that will affect your enjoyment of the game, because everything I've suggested should be optional.
Ok, so we've established most of this is based on WoW. Thanks. That makes the arguemnts a little more fluid in that we have a point of reference.
1- They clearly stated that the decision of not having a ladder is because that would make the game feel e-sport-like. They don't want to encourage that kind of thought, that is a design decision, not a thing that they won't do due time.
Ugh, I'm so exhausted addressing this argument. There is a middle ground between E-sports and no competition whatsoever. Using the argument that "people MIGHT think this" to completely void out all competition in a game that people could enjoy is slightly insulting to those who would choose to participate. This narrow minded view is doing a huge disservice to imagining what could make this game great.
2- As I said, I expect to see improvements in PVP in the next expansions. While I don't think this "feels like Diablo", maybe the fanbase doesn't and there's room for that. But time will tell. Personally, IMO, this feels a lot like Magicka, SC2 and WC3 custom games, and such.
I can't debate something you're feeling over the internet. This argument can't really be responded to. I'm simply suggesting some fun mechanics that could be added that many people would enjoy and improve the game. If it doesn't "feel" right to you, do not participate.
3- Same explanation of 1. They clearly stated that they DONT want people to think PVP is for competition, it is only for fun.
The vast majority of PvPers consider competition and fun to be synonymous. Competition is the very nature of PvP, at it's very heart.
Furthermore, competition doesn't HAVE to be relegated to PvP. Hoard mode, content racing, and I'm sure more could be implemented which PvMrs could squeeze a tremendous amount of enjoyment and replay value out of.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Ok, so we've established most of this is based on WoW. Thanks. That makes the arguemnts a little more fluid in that we have a point of reference.
No, you seem to make huge jumps in logic when they simply aren't there. Re-read my statements, in context. I was responding to your question about similar genres that have successfully achieved a harmony between PvP and PvE. WoW is pretty much the only model for comparison there.
My suggestions are completely independent from WoW and are suggested entirely on the basis of improvement of the game Diablo 3 for folks who enjoy a little competition mixed with their PvE endeavors.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Ok having read through a lot of all this over the past couple of days and I might be able to shed some light on what's going on, although almost everything that I'll say has already been said, I'm just attempting to put it into one post.
It's obvious we have a conflict, and while I could go into extreme detail I'll just clump a lot of it together to make it a little smoother. The PVP crowd wants competition AND balance, the PVE crowd doesn't want anything to change (in extreme cases for both), for the most part. As far as the pvp crowd goes, I believe you are meeting with a lot of resistance because you are 'scaring' the pve crowd. Now I know it's not everyone but its my belief that there are enough posts suggesting full overhauls of class skills, complete removal of some skills from the arena, and/or a change on said skills ( this coming from the demand for ranking, which a majority of people i would say believe that goes hand in hand with extreme balancing). Coming from the pve perspective i completely understand why i would just say screw it don't change a thing, aka 'go play pvp somewhere else'. I know i wouldn't want my skills to be split/deleted just for pvp.
Now to the pve side of people, you need to understand that there is almost jack shit for pvp at the moment, and its easy to understand their frustration. I realize that you as pve'ers don't want to see those awesome skills gone just for pvp ( i know i know another extreme, but I'm just trying to relay what some peoples thoughts are), especially when the argument has been made many times this game is leaning towards pve.
My solution (stolen from like 25 peoples posts put together) is almost what blizzard has already done: In the case of skills, I would only allow slight changes such as stun/snare/dot duration reduction, and some slight increase in CD's of SOME skills. Now obviously this won't balance the game completely, but I think its enough to satisfy the pvp crowd in terms of SOME sort of balance. I would also add a ranking system of some kind ( Maybe split it, like you can go into ranked or unranked matches), and add a couple different game types. Do PVP'ers agree that this would satisfy (maybe not 100%) what you are looking for? And for PVE'ers, would you agree that this won't dynamically change the game in your opinion, and can you live with it?
Ok having read through a lot of all this over the past couple of days and I might be able to shed some light on what's going on, although almost everything that I'll say has already been said, I'm just attempting to put it into one post.
It's obvious we have a conflict, and while I could go into extreme detail I'll just clump a lot of it together to make it a little smoother. The PVP crowd wants competition AND balance, the PVE crowd doesn't want anything to change (in extreme cases for both), for the most part. As far as the pvp crowd goes, I believe you are meeting with a lot of resistance because you are 'scaring' the pve crowd. Now I know it's not everyone but its my belief that there are enough posts suggesting full overhauls of class skills, complete removal of some skills from the arena, and/or a change on said skills ( this coming from the demand for ranking, which a majority of people i would say believe that goes hand in hand with extreme balancing). Coming from the pve perspective i completely understand why i would just say screw it don't change a thing, aka 'go play pvp somewhere else'. I know i wouldn't want my skills to be split/deleted just for pvp.
Now to the pve side of people, you need to understand that there is almost jack shit for pvp at the moment, and its easy to understand their frustration. I realize that you as pve'ers don't want to see those awesome skills gone just for pvp ( i know i know another extreme, but I'm just trying to relay what some peoples thoughts are), especially when the argument has been made many times this game is leaning towards pve.
My solution (stolen from like 25 peoples posts put together) is almost what blizzard has already done: In the case of skills, I would only allow slight changes such as stun/snare/dot duration reduction, and some slight increase in CD's of SOME skills. Now obviously this won't balance the game completely, but I think its enough to satisfy the pvp crowd in terms of SOME sort of balance. I would also add a ranking system of some kind ( Maybe split it, like you can go into ranked or unranked matches), and add a couple different game types. Do PVP'ers agree that this would satisfy (maybe not 100%) what you are looking for? And for PVE'ers, would you agree that this won't dynamically change the game in your opinion, and can you live with it?
Absolutely. I think most PvPers are just grasping for some form of support from the devs, not anything close to E-sport balance. I honestly think the PvP game and PvE would work synergistically to create an amazing game with an enormous amount of replay value and high fun-factor if done right.
If we're looking at it from a WoW perspective, something akin to the balance in rated battlegrounds rather than arena. That's probably a horrible comparison but it should give some idea to the level of balance PvPers SHOULD be expecting from Diablo 3.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Ugh, I'm so exhausted addressing this argument. There is a middle ground between E-sports and no competition whatsoever. Using the argument that "people MIGHT think this" to completely void out all competition in a game that people could enjoy is slightly insulting to those who would choose to participate. This narrow minded view is doing a huge disservice to imagining what could make this game great.
It is understandable that you are exhausted addressing this argument, because it isn't mine nor from the others you have addressed to. They are from Blizzard, it's official. I'm not saying that I agree with them, IMO a PVP ladder would be fine, I wouldn't try it, but many people would. That's fine by me.
Furthermore, competition doesn't HAVE to be relegated to PvP. Hoard mode, content racing, and I'm sure more could be implemented which PvMrs could squeeze a tremendous amount of enjoyment and replay value out of.
Now you are changing the original subject (or what I thought was the original subject), you are NOT asking for more PVP, you are asking for a Custom Game feature, which may or may not be followed by a public map creator just like SC2 and WC3. I think Blizzard already discarded that idea for some reasons I can't remember, search for them if you like, but while I believe the expasions will bring news to the known systems just as improve PVP modes, I don't believe in anything far different from the game focus.
And calm down, my posts contain no arguments, just some quotes from Blizzard and some opinions (which are very well determined when they start and end). I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong, just trying to make you remember abou some announcements that showed that Blizzard have a different focus for D3.
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I have played WoW. WoW didn't separate PvP and PvE abilities. They tried to balance both together, which is absolutely impossible. Hell, it's pretty much impossible to ever "balance" an mmo-style game with virtually infinite gear sets and skill combinations, but that's not the point. Balance will never be perfect, screw it. WE WANT TO HAVE FUN. Using balance as an excuse to shaft PvP for those of us who enjoy it is just ridiculous!
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
You are asking for a PVP team, that they already have, to do some tweaks, as they already are doing, to correct the blatant imbalances that depend on features that can be corrected without impact in the PVE, what they already will do.
PvP is fun and I'm sure after future patch's and expansions it will get better. It's still better than what D2 had to offer (just my opinion). I'm sorry I don't grasp your concept of treating PvP and PvE skills differently... your using the exact same abilities so how can you separate them for balance?
My point is that PvP is severely lacking thus far into the game, which is a huge disservice to what this game could be. We've seen LMS arena already, so we know that the devs were contemplating this at one point.
The lead dev. (Jay Wilson) has stated in an interview I have posted multiple times that there is ALREADY a system in place to relegate PvP abilities to PvP, and PvE to PvE.
I'm asking for a respectable PvP system, somewhere in the middle of E-sports and mindless, uncompetitive, zerg PvP that we have now. I'm asking for OPTIONS. I'm asking for FUN and REPLAY value once you've slain every monster and you're bored as hell (because you will get there at some point). We know that it can be done. We've seen it. It doesn't have to be perfectly balanced.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
What games would you use as an example there?
Are any of them analogous to D3?
I'm referring to LMS PvP, which we've seen in video footage.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
But you're talking about pvp that isn't being implemented. That pvp is already in the game. It's been developed and it's not being removed. What's being argued here is that pvp should be further developed (to what end I suppose is up for continued debate). I'm asking you what you see as that end. In what games you see a similar end. And ultimately how you see continuity between that game and where D3 pvp could/should end up.
Yes. And to those who love the PVP. If you keep it up, they might expand it on expansions later on..
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Okay I watched the video and were talking about the exact same thing. The tweaking that is being done in WoW is the same in the D3 approach of (specific PvP stats). This will likely reach your desire of reasonable PvP/PvE balance but I still think that may stay a hope/dream, we'll have to see.
Yes PvP could use more attention, you don't like it, wait for the next few patches they are going to do something at some point. People will get bored of end game eventually and blizzard is good for providing additional content and changes to keep user interest... I'm sorry that your going to have to wait.
What do you mean with "respectable PVP system"? We don't "have" anything right now, how can you be sure that the PVP will be "mindless, uncompetitive, zerg PVP"?
I really think that PVP will be quite good, they just said they wouldn't balance it to be an e-sport, but they will still make improvements to it. And I think the expansions will bring new features regarding PVP.
Here is exactly what I, personally, would like to see. This isn't set in stone by any means, and I'm 100% sure the developers could come up with far superior ideas than me. Tell me this doesn't sound incredible for the game:
1. A public ladder system for both TDM and LMS.
2. Unique competition modes, i.e.:
- Hoard Mode - teams of characters compete to hold off hoards of monsters. Whoever is over-run first loses.
- Content Racing - teams of characters compete PvM content (PvErs should love this!)
- "Objective" PvP - "Hold this point for x amount of time," "Find this chest first (i.e. treasure hunting but competitive," "Capture this point first" (CTF), protect the NPC, or VIP.
- Unique prestige awards for winners of all of these different formats. I.e. Titles, paraphernalia, aesthetic rewards, ears, etc. (I'm sure infinitely awesome things could be thought up that don't award gear but keep people competing)
- Winner takes all - Items or gold is put up for grabs to the winner. Would be amazing if the public had the ability to bid on the winner as well. This should be an OPTION for every format. If you don't want to participate, great, but for those that do it should be there.
3. 1 on 1 dueling system with competitive ladder support.
Probably more that I can't think of in 5 minutes.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
1- They clearly stated that the decision of not having a ladder is because that would make the game feel e-sport-like. They don't want to encourage that kind of thought, that is a design decision, not a thing that they won't do due time.
2- As I said, I expect to see improvements in PVP in the next expansions. While I don't think this "feels like Diablo", maybe the fanbase doesn't and there's room for that. But time will tell. Personally, IMO, this feels a lot like Magicka, SC2 and WC3 custom games, and such.
3- Same explanation of 1. They clearly stated that they DONT want people to think PVP is for competition, it is only for fun.
But you made it sound as though the ideal level of pvp development (presumably what you're talking about in this latest post) exists already in another game. What games are we drawing on (obviously mmo's, fps, etc) to make this list? And as I continued on to ask, what kind of relationship do those games have with D3?
I mean, it's all well and good to pick out an aspect of one game that you like, but we should pay some attention to how we adapt these things cross-title. Can some of these things mesh with the "Jay," view of D3. Are some of these things possible, but simply out of the ideology of the game? Are some of them just hard to fit into an ARPG by it's vary nature?
ex.
-Ladder is one of those things that could obvious come and go easily.
-Unique modes are probably more interdependant on the code and might not be so easily put in.
I've already addressed that point. I was specifically referring to the LMS format that we had already seen when stating "we've seen it." You simply took that out of context.
The closest model we've seen is WoW, where PvE and PvP abilities were not separated. That game turned out pretty fantastic, although I'm sure people will find a way to bash it. I'm simply suggesting that more support for competition in the game will pay off exponentially in terms of replay value, fun, and therefore customer satisfaction. I've stated my points many, many times. It's very easy to be negative and poke holes in ideas. It requires no imagination, simply a cynical attitude. If you're happy with how the game is, i.e. no competition that matter and a simple PvE grind for gear, just sit back, relax and wait for release. I'm not suggesting anything that will affect your enjoyment of the game, because everything I've suggested should be optional.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
It was not out of context based on what you had quoted.
Ok, so we've established most of this is based on WoW. Thanks. That makes the arguemnts a little more fluid in that we have a point of reference.
Ugh, I'm so exhausted addressing this argument. There is a middle ground between E-sports and no competition whatsoever. Using the argument that "people MIGHT think this" to completely void out all competition in a game that people could enjoy is slightly insulting to those who would choose to participate. This narrow minded view is doing a huge disservice to imagining what could make this game great.
I can't debate something you're feeling over the internet. This argument can't really be responded to. I'm simply suggesting some fun mechanics that could be added that many people would enjoy and improve the game. If it doesn't "feel" right to you, do not participate.
The vast majority of PvPers consider competition and fun to be synonymous. Competition is the very nature of PvP, at it's very heart.
Furthermore, competition doesn't HAVE to be relegated to PvP. Hoard mode, content racing, and I'm sure more could be implemented which PvMrs could squeeze a tremendous amount of enjoyment and replay value out of.
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No, you seem to make huge jumps in logic when they simply aren't there. Re-read my statements, in context. I was responding to your question about similar genres that have successfully achieved a harmony between PvP and PvE. WoW is pretty much the only model for comparison there.
My suggestions are completely independent from WoW and are suggested entirely on the basis of improvement of the game Diablo 3 for folks who enjoy a little competition mixed with their PvE endeavors.
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It's obvious we have a conflict, and while I could go into extreme detail I'll just clump a lot of it together to make it a little smoother. The PVP crowd wants competition AND balance, the PVE crowd doesn't want anything to change (in extreme cases for both), for the most part. As far as the pvp crowd goes, I believe you are meeting with a lot of resistance because you are 'scaring' the pve crowd. Now I know it's not everyone but its my belief that there are enough posts suggesting full overhauls of class skills, complete removal of some skills from the arena, and/or a change on said skills ( this coming from the demand for ranking, which a majority of people i would say believe that goes hand in hand with extreme balancing). Coming from the pve perspective i completely understand why i would just say screw it don't change a thing, aka 'go play pvp somewhere else'. I know i wouldn't want my skills to be split/deleted just for pvp.
Now to the pve side of people, you need to understand that there is almost jack shit for pvp at the moment, and its easy to understand their frustration. I realize that you as pve'ers don't want to see those awesome skills gone just for pvp ( i know i know another extreme, but I'm just trying to relay what some peoples thoughts are), especially when the argument has been made many times this game is leaning towards pve.
My solution (stolen from like 25 peoples posts put together) is almost what blizzard has already done: In the case of skills, I would only allow slight changes such as stun/snare/dot duration reduction, and some slight increase in CD's of SOME skills. Now obviously this won't balance the game completely, but I think its enough to satisfy the pvp crowd in terms of SOME sort of balance. I would also add a ranking system of some kind ( Maybe split it, like you can go into ranked or unranked matches), and add a couple different game types. Do PVP'ers agree that this would satisfy (maybe not 100%) what you are looking for? And for PVE'ers, would you agree that this won't dynamically change the game in your opinion, and can you live with it?
Absolutely. I think most PvPers are just grasping for some form of support from the devs, not anything close to E-sport balance. I honestly think the PvP game and PvE would work synergistically to create an amazing game with an enormous amount of replay value and high fun-factor if done right.
If we're looking at it from a WoW perspective, something akin to the balance in rated battlegrounds rather than arena. That's probably a horrible comparison but it should give some idea to the level of balance PvPers SHOULD be expecting from Diablo 3.
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It is understandable that you are exhausted addressing this argument, because it isn't mine nor from the others you have addressed to. They are from Blizzard, it's official. I'm not saying that I agree with them, IMO a PVP ladder would be fine, I wouldn't try it, but many people would. That's fine by me.
Now you are changing the original subject (or what I thought was the original subject), you are NOT asking for more PVP, you are asking for a Custom Game feature, which may or may not be followed by a public map creator just like SC2 and WC3. I think Blizzard already discarded that idea for some reasons I can't remember, search for them if you like, but while I believe the expasions will bring news to the known systems just as improve PVP modes, I don't believe in anything far different from the game focus.
And calm down, my posts contain no arguments, just some quotes from Blizzard and some opinions (which are very well determined when they start and end). I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong, just trying to make you remember abou some announcements that showed that Blizzard have a different focus for D3.