The staple of the Diablo series has always been fairly simple. You're a hero that fights and kills demons to get those shiny items that make you feel good inside when you put them on. Diablo 3 runs into a huge problem with this It misses the mark totally when it comes to a central aspect of a genre.
The addicting and defining feature of any RPG is progression. You start off weak and as you are rewarded with things like skills and items you become more powerful and the rewards feel good because they make you more powerful. This is where D3 loses the mark, instead of trying to make it feel like you've progressed and become more powerful, that you've been rewarded D3 just opts to make you feel like a god all the time. The only problem with that is once you're a god you have no where to go. The abilities we start with are a perfect example of this. Every spell is over the top, you don't have this unified sense of progression like you had in Diablo 2. Where you would start off with a weak skill like ice bolt and then over the course of your leveling process attain stronger skills that increased in effectiveness and became more visually potent as you put more skill points into them (think how you got more charged bolts the more points you put in). D3 simply hands you all the skills in rapid succession each tuned to look and feel very strong.
The character leveling system and is culpable to this too. In D3 the developers preference for massively high numbers and the fact that monsters share the same level as you boil to a grotesque mix. Because damage and health values of monsters have to jump noticeably most levels so that those numbers can eventually be as high as hundreds of thousands the monsters you fight end up getting an advantage in power over you that you won't overcome until you find new gear. You have this roller coaster of power, instead of a smooth curve upwards like in Diablo 2 you suddenly go from single digits on gear to double digits to hundreds and even to thousands. Rendering any good gear you may have found along the way worthless.You're powerful for one second and then weak the next. Winning a good legendary item is invalidated by simply leveling up a few times.
The leveling system is supposed to offer a form of progression and customization alongside loot. But in D3 the cap is 70 simply to get all the runes for your character, The advantage of a system like Diablo 2 is that leveling up feels rewarding. you get to put in stat points to make your character feel stronger, whenever you add points to a skill that skill is inherently more strong as well.
What do you all think? Does Diablo 3 do a good job at character progression or no?
EDIT: I just wanted to add; the point of increasing in strength as level up is not just so the system can look pretty. It's so as you are playing the game you feel rewarded by getting level ups and new items/skills. It feels weird in the abstract. because nobody likes to feel weak, but the point of feeling weak is so you have the urge to get new items/skills and feel strong. As well as the hope that you feel good whenever you get them.
Firstly, giving players completely new abilities deep into the progression curve is, IMO, a dick move. In fact, I don't even like the way D3 does it. You're either gating the best builds behind huge amounts of time, or giving players the best builds early on, then a trickle of irrelevant crap from then on. D3 is tolerable, as the between rolling a new character and getting to the build you actually want to try isn't too long, but its still a total cock-block.
On the other hand, if leveling up just increases the power of abilities they already have, you may as well attach that power either to their bases stats or their items, and get rid of the fake complexity and/or underwhelming rewards from having a conga-line of "+2% to fire skills", "-2% mana consumption" crapskills that I hate (screw you, Torchlight2... you let me down badly).
However, the fact is that as well as being focused on power acquisition, aRPGs are necessarily grindy. By giving us all of our abilities within a few hours of gameplay, but having cross-account gear and paragon levels, D3 sacrifices some degree of power-through-progression for a many more options that take the edge off the tedium. Whether that works or not is, obviously, subjective... but at least Blizzard didn't just barf up "Diablo 2 HD".
What's mostly missing is the incentive to switch things up in the form of build-baiting legendaries. Blizzard isn't dropping those in as fast as they should, but that's the direction they're headed.
Every spell is over the top, you don't have this unified sense of progression like you had in Diablo 2. Where you would start off with a weak skill like ice bolt and then over the course of your leveling process attain stronger skills that increased in effectiveness and became more visually potent as you put more skill points into them (think how you got more charged bolts the more points you put in).
I disagree completely.
Why in the world would you want to slog through garbage spells that are shitty-on-purpose so that you can appreciate the good ones? That's masochistic and it also means that stuff like icebolt weren't anything more than filler spells until you got to X level when you unlock <spell that's better in every circumstance>.
I don't want items that suck. I don't want skills that suck. I don't want the philosophy behind upgrading my character to be "hey, this item doesn't suck, and you've spend 30 levels getting nothing but things that do suck... so isn't that great?" We already have that with legendaries and it SUCKS. No one gives two shits about an Angel Hair Braid. They're speedbumps. They're fodder for enchanting and crafting. They are, by design, exactly the things that you say make character progression awesome in ARPGs.... yet the community absolutely hates them.
To answer the question in your poll: yes, I do think there is good character progression.
Character progression in Diablo 3 is mainly focusing on items. Not exclusively though - paragon is just as important as well. 50-100 paragon points give you about the equivalent of one primary stat, so getting to paragon 200 means you progressed as much as if you'd unlocked an additional item slot. The different between a paragon 200 and a paragon 600 character is HUGE. It's definitely better than in Diablo 2, in my opinion, where the leveling curve was very steep towards the end for somewhat smaller benefits (I never felt the urge to get to 99, but I somewhat are looking forward to hitting 600 "soon"). But comparing D2 levels and D3 paragon is obviously very subjective. D3 is totally different, caters more to long-term players (especially until we have seasons), and is more open. In D2 everyone was forced to restart a lot, even softcore non-ladder you had to restart once you realized you had chosen some wrong skills... in D3, I don't have to dismiss all my progress if I decide that I want to switch some things.
That leaves itemization. As shaggy said, there are a lot of useless items (Angel Hair Braid as he mentioned) but also check out the thread I recently posted (it's on the front page) to see that a looooooot of those "useless" items are gonna get changed as well. So, many of those "useless speedbumps" will be turned into amazing game-changing legendaries in the near future. I personally like that. I don't want to be forced to "restart" my progression just because I figured that the build I had envisioned for my level 80 sorceress doesn't work. If I like restarting character progress, I can play hardcore or seasons (soon). I like the freedom of switching builds and items and trying out new things without losing progression.
Every spell is over the top, you don't have this unified sense of progression like you had in Diablo 2. Where you would start off with a weak skill like ice bolt and then over the course of your leveling process attain stronger skills that increased in effectiveness and became more visually potent as you put more skill points into them (think how you got more charged bolts the more points you put in).
I disagree completely.
Why in the world would you want to slog through garbage spells that are shitty-on-purpose so that you can appreciate the good ones? That's masochistic and it also means that stuff like icebolt weren't anything more than filler spells until you got to X level when you unlock .
I don't want items that suck. I don't want skills that suck. I don't want the philosophy behind upgrading my character to be "hey, this item doesn't suck, and you've spend 30 levels getting nothing but things that do suck... so isn't that great?" We already have that with legendaries and it SUCKS. No one gives two shits about an Angel Hair Braid. They're speedbumps. They're fodder for enchanting and crafting. They are, by design, exactly the things that you say make character progression awesome in ARPGs.... yet the community absolutely hates them.
I agree that Diablo 2 got it wrong. I thought that a good way to combat this was say, as you put more points into ice bolt it becomes frost bolt and it's still useful to some extent. The point of spells increasing that way is that you feel your character progresses. Imagine if you just started with blizzard in Diablo 2. It would be pretty awesome for a little bit. BUt then you wouldent feel as rewarded when you leveled up. But I do agree that the kind of game play that we currently have in Diablo 3 with early game loot and in diablo 2 with early game spells sucks. But I don't think we should throw the early spells system away. I think we should tweak it in the way I mentioned or some other way since it does have good benefits.
To answer the question in your poll: yes, I do think there is good character progression.
Character progression in Diablo 3 is mainly focusing on items. Not exclusively though - paragon is just as important as well. 50-100 paragon points give you about the equivalent of one primary stat, so getting to paragon 200 means you progressed as much as if you'd unlocked an additional item slot. The different between a paragon 200 and a paragon 600 character is HUGE. It's definitely better than in Diablo 2, in my opinion, where the leveling curve was very steep towards the end for somewhat smaller benefits (I never felt the urge to get to 99, but I somewhat are looking forward to hitting 600 "soon"). But comparing D2 levels and D3 paragon is obviously very subjective. D3 is totally different, caters more to long-term players (especially until we have seasons), and is more open. In D2 everyone was forced to restart a lot, even softcore non-ladder you had to restart once you realized you had chosen some wrong skills... in D3, I don't have to dismiss all my progress if I decide that I want to switch some things.
That leaves itemization. As shaggy said, there are a lot of useless items (Angel Hair Braid as he mentioned) but also check out the thread I recently posted (it's on the front page) to see that a looooooot of those "useless" items are gonna get changed as well. So, many of those "useless speedbumps" will be turned into amazing game-changing legendaries in the near future. I personally like that. I don't want to be forced to "restart" my progression just because I figured that the build I had envisioned for my level 80 sorceress doesn't work. If I like restarting character progress, I can play hardcore or seasons (soon). I like the freedom of switching builds and items and trying out new things without losing progression.
I do think the Diablo 2 system was too extreme. I would advocate maybe some items that allow you to backtrack a bit or maybe a quest for a full respec that could only be done once or twice if say you've gone all the way to level 80 on your sorc and it ends up not working. But the Diablo 3 system is extreme in the opposite direction. It does to character identity what being able to switch your class at the same convenience would do to class identity. If you build your Barbarian in diablo 2 to be a frenzy WW barb you have a set play style and weapons you want to use and so fourth. Your character is permanently that so that becomes his identity. You are a barbarian that uses physical skills and gets centralized (weapon) gear. But if you just give him the ability to change himself dramatically on a whim his identity becomes so fluid that it largely isn't there. In fact that hurts itemization to some extent imagine if you just kept up everything in D2 because you weren't sure if you wanted to be a character with caster gear or hybrid. The permanence and identity makes it easier and more clear to find the gear you're looking for. And because of your character identity maybe even feel more rewarding.
What I meant by useless speed bumps is that by order of pure numbers. I.e not enough vitality and main stat on the item it would have to be replaced within a few levels. I do look forward to many of the changes though
I think we should distinguish two phases in "progression", 1 being the route from 1 to 70, and 1 beyond 70.
In phase 1-70, and I speak about myfirst playthroughfrom 1 to 60 because RoS didn't exist, I had a positive experience with progression. New skills, new passives, game changing runes, and always gear upgrades around the corner. Just the way an aRPG should work. Compared to other aRPGs I played, Diablo 2, PoE, TL2, Diablo 3 did a great job. As I recall from Diablo 2, when you (being noob) would invest too many skill points in Frostbolt, the game would soon get too hard because Frostbolt at level 30 was very underwhelming, whereas Frozen Orb wouldowneverything. On a side note: in later patches a Frostbolt build became viable as well. In phase 1-70, multiple play throughs, Diablo 3 is a lot like Diablo 2, PoE, TL2 or even World of Warcraft. You know every skill, you have sometwink gear, you boost your character to level 70 asap. You rarely take a look at your skills, and you upgrade items every few levels. In Diablo 2, you would do Baal runs from level 25 to level 80 while saving all skill points and talent points for a definitive distribution later on.
In phase 70+ things get more complicated. Progress goes much more slowly because you are dependent on game changing items, which drop completely randomly. The paragon system and the availability of Kadala and some good crafted items make this a bit more bearable. Still, general rule of thumb is that you have to invest many hours to get all possible game changing items. Because of the randomness, progression doesn't really go incrementally. Aside of the PTR there isn't a way to measure your progress (or you can look at the deceiving character sheet). I think Blizzard is doing a great job with RoS and future patches to improve this core aspect.
Because of the above I voted for "partially yes".
Edit: multiple tries to put spaces between words that actually had been put there. This editor is bugged.
The thing with vanilla was that you felt strong just a few minutes into the game. The problem with the gated difficulty system as they did it was you would start off at normal where it was always doable and you could kill bosses and monsters with no questions. Then as you moved on the jumps in difficulty would actually make you feel weaker, esp in Inferno. So you ended up feeling like you regressed at times.
The thing about progression with legendaries is that they change your character instead of just building upon it like D2 did. When you picked up a rare or otherwise high quality item it would give you good stats, other powers like "10% to cast level 2 frost nova on striking" and things like that. Along with many other buffs like half freeze duration, extra % damage against undead or what have you. This isn't necessarily bad, the problem is that when the rewards that are far and wide are the only pieces of loot that change your character fundamentally you sometimes feel like you're not being compensated.
Edit; Sorry if I sounded like a dick not my intent. Bad with socializing sometimes.
To answer the question in your poll: yes, I do think there is good character progression.
Character progression in Diablo 3 is mainly focusing on items. Not exclusively though - paragon is just as important as well. 50-100 paragon points give you about the equivalent of one primary stat, so getting to paragon 200 means you progressed as much as if you'd unlocked an additional item slot. The different between a paragon 200 and a paragon 600 character is HUGE. It's definitely better than in Diablo 2, in my opinion, where the leveling curve was very steep towards the end for somewhat smaller benefits (I never felt the urge to get to 99, but I somewhat are looking forward to hitting 600 "soon"). But comparing D2 levels and D3 paragon is obviously very subjective. D3 is totally different, caters more to long-term players (especially until we have seasons), and is more open. In D2 everyone was forced to restart a lot, even softcore non-ladder you had to restart once you realized you had chosen some wrong skills... in D3, I don't have to dismiss all my progress if I decide that I want to switch some things.
That leaves itemization. As shaggy said, there are a lot of useless items (Angel Hair Braid as he mentioned) but also check out the thread I recently posted (it's on the front page) to see that a looooooot of those "useless" items are gonna get changed as well. So, many of those "useless speedbumps" will be turned into amazing game-changing legendaries in the near future. I personally like that. I don't want to be forced to "restart" my progression just because I figured that the build I had envisioned for my level 80 sorceress doesn't work. If I like restarting character progress, I can play hardcore or seasons (soon). I like the freedom of switching builds and items and trying out new things without losing progression.
I do think the Diablo 2 system was too extreme. I would advocate maybe some items that allow you to backtrack a bit or maybe a quest for a full respec that could only be done once or twice if say you've gone all the way to level 80 on your sorc and it ends up not working. But the Diablo 3 system is extreme in the opposite direction. It does to character identity what being able to switch your class at the same convenience would do to class identity. If you build your Barbarian in diablo 2 to be a frenzy WW barb you have a set play style and weapons you want to use and so fourth. Your character is permanently that so that becomes his identity. You are a barbarian that uses physical skills and gets centralized (weapon) gear. But if you just give him the ability to change himself dramatically on a whim his identity becomes so fluid that it largely isn't there. In fact that hurts itemization to some extent imagine if you just kept up everything in D2 because you weren't sure if you wanted to be a character with caster gear or hybrid. The permanence and identity makes it easier and more clear to find the gear you're looking for. And because of your character identity maybe even feel more rewarding.
What I meant by useless speed bumps is that by order of pure numbers. I.e not enough vitality and main stat on the item it would have to be replaced within a few levels. I do look forward to many of the changes though
Except you can respec in D2 (Was added in 1.13). The best comparison to what you are talking about is Path of Exile, where your passive skills are very expensive to respec, if you want to respec enough (Each point you respec is mildly expensive, but it adds up). These two games are very different though, and it is a question of personal preference. I really enjoy the freedom that D3 has when it comes to your character, especially because a single patch can change things dramatically. Imagine making a build that relies heavily on one strong ability, and then that ability gets nerfed to the ground. In path of exile you may be screwed over and now have to reroll, but in D3 you can simply come up with something new and interesting.
The only issue so far in D3 really, is that there are currently not enough legendaries to promote unique builds (Will come with time) and there are some balancing issues between both individual spells and also between the classes (Will also be fixed as time goes on). Lastly, they need to add more entertaining game modes (Greater rifts are incoming, but we need more). By the time class balance is better and they are satisfied with the various game modes available, their focus on interesting legendaries can increase, at which point every patch might bring multiple interesting build possibilities.
So to answer the initial question: I think character progression in D3 is fine. With time, it will become great.
You can but only 3 times each difficulty. Diablo 3 lets you change your character in a fundamental way on the fly. I'm still mostly referring to before that patch because that's what most people played but I do think being able to change into totally different builds three times just by completing a simple quest was a bit generous.
Every system is a weigh of benefits versus costs. If you look at the costs of the Diablo 3 system you see. Lack of character identity, lack of replay ability, you can't specialize in builds that aren't predetermined to you through the passive skill system. At the same time you get the freedom to try out new builds. But is that really a good thing? When you can try all unique builds in minutes rather than weeks you lose replay ability, when you can change your tanky barbarian into a damage oriented one within a few seconds what does that do to character identity?
Patches changing around the landscape of a build surely is a problem. But it's not one that can't be worked You can give those affected re specs like you pointed out.
You can also farm items to gain more respecs, not very difficult.
Character identity does not really mean anything though, it is subjective in nature. Some people feel connected to their characters, others don't. So in my case, I don't really care about character identity enough for it to warrant rerolling every time I want to try something new with the same class. Replayability for replayability's sake is also not necessarily good. I dislike levelling through the early levels in D2 and PoE, because you more often than not don't even have access to the build you want to try out. Sometimes in those kinds of games you even have to gimp your early game further, because you can't change things around later when your build is finished, so you have to pick specific bad early game stats, because they work best for your late game build.
What allows you to try new builds in D3 is not solely the ability to swap out your abilities. For most builds (Any build really) you need a set of gear that fits it. This part will only grow more important as time goes on, with the addition of more legendary affixes. For example, I would love to try a Vyr + Tal rasha arcane build for the next 2.1 patch (Meteor changes), but I don't have the gear (No tal items, only vyr chest and gloves). So even if I wanted to try that build, I don't have the necessary items yet to do it. That is the point of D3, that before you have some specific gear, you find a build that works and is fun for you. Then when that gear drops, you can slowly start shifting to a new skill set, and see if it works out for you. Then you might get a few new drops, and suddenly an entirely different build is available for you to try out. Apples and oranges, basically.
I like the way this system works, and with time it will only get better. I don't miss having to spend the first 20+ hours grinding through levels where my character is just plain boring, just to get to the point where I can try out what I wanted, and even then, might discover that it is crap and have to start all over again.
I guess idenitty is subjective, I think the term ownership makes more sense. If your character is fundamentally diffeerent from other characters by the very skills it can specialize in and thus it's play style the character is much closer to making you feel like you own him/her even if that's not the case for everybody. Instead of everyone having access to all the builds at once.
Like I said, I certainly agree that Diablo 2 was too extreme. But there are ways to work around that. Maybe it could be a hybrid of what we have now. What if for example we had the synergistic skill trees but you put your points into skills were you got all of the runes for that skill. So you could still switch your build around if it wasn't working for you.
Referring to replay ability. It's a big fear I have with D3. What happens once we hit paragon level 600? You can't really do that much more from there. It's true of your other characters too. They start off with a huge head start and that nerfs even the game play THEY have left.
Referring to replay ability. It's a big fear I have with D3. What happens once we hit paragon level 600? You can't really do that much more from there. It's true of your other characters too. They start off with a huge head start and that nerfs even the game play THEY have left.
Honestly: if you're paragon 600, that equals probably about having ~5 level 99 chars on D2 (minimum). You don't get to 600 without putting many many many hundreds of hours into this game, and that within a very short time frame (3-4 months). It's only obvious that a burnout is possible then. Still, some 600+ people continue playing; there's always some rare item for another class to hunt - SMK, WoW, Kridershot. There's always some achievement to get, keys to farm for 2.1 ubers, and so on.
I think the legendary gems in 2.1 will add nicely to longevity: you might get one gem to 200 quite easily. Getting most (or all) of them to 200 will take lots of time. And then most of those gems have no upgrade limit, and I can see people running with a rank 1000 gem, there's probably be some fun gear combinations. Imagine a Mirinae gem at rank 1000 (equiv to 250 with the current system), dealing 6000% damage to your enemies occasionally. Yeah... I think there's stuff to do. No worries.
Referring to replay ability. It's a big fear I have with D3. What happens once we hit paragon level 600? You can't really do that much more from there. It's true of your other characters too. They start off with a huge head start and that nerfs even the game play THEY have left.
Honestly: if you're paragon 600, that equals probably about having ~5 level 99 chars on D2 (minimum). You don't get to 600 without putting many many many hundreds of hours into this game, and that within a very short time frame (3-4 months). It's only obvious that a burnout is possible then. Still, some 600+ people continue playing; there's always some rare item for another class to hunt - SMK, WoW, Kridershot. There's always some achievement to get, keys to farm for 2.1 ubers, and so on.
I think the legendary gems in 2.1 will add nicely to longevity: you might get one gem to 200 quite easily. Getting most (or all) of them to 200 will take lots of time. And then most of those gems have no upgrade limit, and I can see people running with a rank 1000 gem, there's probably be some fun gear combinations. Imagine a Mirinae gem at rank 1000 (equiv to 250 with the current system), dealing 6000% damage to your enemies occasionally. Yeah... I think there's stuff to do. No worries.
Oh ok that's good. I still feel like the itemization could use a lot of work. I still am concerned witht he fact that the only gear that feels good to pick up is legendaries. Most of the stuff you see you end up just salvaging.
There are soooooooo many legendaries, it's totally fine with having "only legendaries" to pick up. Check out my gear guide in which I summarized just for the wizard for each slots which legendaries might be interesting. And 2.1 probably doubles the choices for most slots.
It's really difficult to assess Reaper of Souls and its longevity. I know some people who have been playing non-stop since 2.0.1 hit. I know some people who got frustrated early on and left. It's certainly better than in D3V, but of course you can never satisfy everyone. If you get lucky and gear out your character in a few weeks (totally possible), for softcore non-ladder you might run out of motivation unless you're an achievement hunter or perfectionist. There are also people who have played hundreds of hours since release and still aren't at T6. RNG, personal preference, so many things that come into play. But the basic foundation of RoS isn't that bad. And if they continue pushing out patches, fixes, and new content (skill balancing, new legendaries) I'm pretty sure this "not bad" changes to "excellent" for the majority of players. Never for everyone, of course... there'll always be people for whom the main activity in D2 was trading, or PvP, or stuff like that which is just not on D3's agenda anymore.
There are soooooooo many legendaries, it's totally fine with having "only legendaries" to pick up. Check out my gear guide in which I summarized just for the wizard for each slots which legendaries might be interesting. And 2.1 probably doubles the choices for most slots.
It's really difficult to assess Reaper of Souls and its longevity. I know some people who have been playing non-stop since 2.0.1 hit. I know some people who got frustrated early on and left. It's certainly better than in D3V, but of course you can never satisfy everyone. If you get lucky and gear out your character in a few weeks (totally possible), for softcore non-ladder you might run out of motivation unless you're an achievement hunter or perfectionist. There are also people who have played hundreds of hours since release and still aren't at T6. RNG, personal preference, so many things that come into play. But the basic foundation of RoS isn't that bad. And if they continue pushing out patches, fixes, and new content (skill balancing, new legendaries) I'm pretty sure this "not bad" changes to "excellent" for the majority of players. Never for everyone, of course... there'll always be people for whom the main activity in D2 was trading, or PvP, or stuff like that which is just not on D3's agenda anymore.
But still don't you think that the amount that you were rewarded in Diablo 2 was more than what you were rewarded in Diablo 3? I mean to me it's like you start off very strong and you only get a little bit. Shouldent it be that you start off weak and then distingush yourself with the power?
What allows you to try new builds in D3 is not solely the ability to swap out your abilities. For most builds (Any build really) you need a set of gear that fits it. This part will only grow more important as time goes on, with the addition of more legendary affixes. For example, I would love to try a Vyr + Tal rasha arcane build for the next 2.1 patch (Meteor changes), but I don't have the gear (No tal items, only vyr chest and gloves). So even if I wanted to try that build, I don't have the necessary items yet to do it. That is the point of D3, that before you have some specific gear, you find a build that works and is fun for you. Then when that gear drops, you can slowly start shifting to a new skill set, and see if it works out for you. Then you might get a few new drops, and suddenly an entirely different build is available for you to try out. Apples and oranges, basically.
I like the way this system works, and with time it will only get better. I don't miss having to spend the first 20+ hours grinding through levels where my character is just plain boring, just to get to the point where I can try out what I wanted, and even then, might discover that it is crap and have to start all over again.
There's a huge problem with item based builds. They require a gear set to complete, the problem is once you get that gear set there is no way to progress in that build. That's because you would have to take off the build changing item in order to have an upgradee. In which the build would not work. Once you get to the build that you've built around legenadaiies you have no where to go. You can't really be rewarded because it not only takes such a high bar of gear to complete in the first place but must stay static. You cannot unequip the embodiment of the marauder set for an upgrade. Because that would destroy the build.
What allows you to try new builds in D3 is not solely the ability to swap out your abilities. For most builds (Any build really) you need a set of gear that fits it. This part will only grow more important as time goes on, with the addition of more legendary affixes. For example, I would love to try a Vyr + Tal rasha arcane build for the next 2.1 patch (Meteor changes), but I don't have the gear (No tal items, only vyr chest and gloves). So even if I wanted to try that build, I don't have the necessary items yet to do it. That is the point of D3, that before you have some specific gear, you find a build that works and is fun for you. Then when that gear drops, you can slowly start shifting to a new skill set, and see if it works out for you. Then you might get a few new drops, and suddenly an entirely different build is available for you to try out. Apples and oranges, basically.
I like the way this system works, and with time it will only get better. I don't miss having to spend the first 20+ hours grinding through levels where my character is just plain boring, just to get to the point where I can try out what I wanted, and even then, might discover that it is crap and have to start all over again.
There's a huge problem with item based builds. They require a gear set to complete, the problem is once you get that gear set there is no way to progress in that build. That's because you would have to take off the build changing item in order to have an upgradee. In which the build would not work. Once you get to the build that you've built around legenadaiies you have no where to go. You can't really be rewarded because it not only takes such a high bar of gear to complete in the first place but must stay static. You cannot unequip the embodiment of the marauder set for an upgrade. Because that would destroy the build.
You can get perfect versions of the items you are using, you can get different variations (CDR instead of CC, Vit instead of damage, etc.), and even then, there are things like Tasker and Theo + Tall Man's Finger + Mask of Jeram, where if you have one of them you can go for the build and the rest will improve it. With a full item set that are all rolled perfectly, you can't upgrade your gear any longer, but that is true for any game in this genre (Unless you have tried a game that I haven't). Even then, we get Legendary Gems next patch which can be upgraded indefinitely, plus we have infinite paragon levels.
And again, as more legendaries are added, not having a specific item is no longer destroying a build, but perhaps instead allows for a different variation of a build. Currently the class sets are very strong which has lead to pigeonholing, which is unfortunate, but definitely fixable.
I was going to add the part about the variation of items in but the thing is that It's a low chance that you'll even get the legendary again to begin with, And an even lower chance that you'll get a significantly better version of it. What I would like to see would be like what we had in Diablo 2. You would choose the playstyle of your character by choosing your characters skills. Then your item would compliment and expand upon that choice. For example a higher level item might give you a chance to cast posion nova when struck, that gives you a new power similar to how some legendary items do. The problem is that legendary items are the ONLY ones with intresting affixes. And because of that you can't really progress with the same playstyle after you get one.
darn. i never realized it the way you put it. you have very valid arguments. in response to your points, maybe blizz would simply say this isn't D2.
come to think of it, for the sake of being different does not guarantee a better product.
i remember picking up a unique bow in D2 on nightmare. I felt so strong since then even if I levelled up. I only had a difficulty when I went into Hell mode but it still made a difference.
here in D3, when I picked up a legendary weapon on let's say lvl 42. about 3-4 levels later, a rare weapon could almost outshine it ..
But still don't you think that the amount that you were rewarded in Diablo 2 was more than what you were rewarded in Diablo 3? I mean to me it's like you start off very strong and you only get a little bit. Shouldent it be that you start off weak and then distingush yourself with the power?
What does that mean, "the amount that you were rewarded"? It's very difficult to compare how I *felt* 10 years ago. From what I remember, D2 was never able to motivate me for as long as D3 does currently. There's only one thing that I thought was better in D2, and that was that there were more items that took AGES to farm - like all those super rare uniques, and especially high level runes with all the high level runewords. Those took forever, I actually never saw most. I was really happy when I read the bluepost that said "there's a fair chance that you'll never get a complete set". Great! That was the kind of longevity I was hoping for. I think in order to really feel the achievement of beating a game or acquiring an item, there needs to be a realistic chance of never getting it. Therefore, despite my grudge after 500+ hours on my wiz in RoS alone without Wand of Woh, I think this is a good example: if I ever get this weapon, I'll be super happy, because it's super rare. There should be more like that. The biggest mistake, imho, was when they made class sets so easily available: they should be as rare as they were pre-2.0.6, and they should've never been added to Kadala. Biggest mistake ever, in my opinion.
Other than that, D3 "rewards me with more" than D2 ever did. In D2, I felt that there was no point in getting better gear, because it did not unlock a new playstyle. Unlocking a new playstyle, even if you found a cool new unique that sparked an idea for a build, entailed leveling up a new character to 80+ - and by the time I had done this (mind you, i did not do any crazy powerleveling that ensured getting to 80 easily) I already lost interest in that build. In D3, although all my classes are T5+ ready, none of them is perfectly geared - I've got things to hunt for all of them. Lots of stuff to do. And I still get upgrades fairly regularly - I'd say at least every week, lately even almost every night because it's 2.1 preparation time and I've been doing lots of T6 farming. In D2, just ~2 weeks into a new ladder I'd run Baal for a few dozen times a night and find nothing, get bored, and stop playing. That is something that has not yet happened to me in RoS. And with 2.1 upon us, I don't expect this to happen before the end of the year.
Realize while typing this out that I sound like the most helpless fanboy there is. But well... that's just how I feel. The game's in good shape for me right now. (Except for that freaking WoW that eludes me, of course, but that's for the RNG thread ;-))
here in D3, when I picked up a legendary weapon on let's say lvl 42. about 3-4 levels later, a rare weapon could almost outshine it ..
99% of players simply skip the pre-70 game, so there was little effort put into balancing this. Maybe it'll change a bit with seasons, but don't think so. Even very casual players can get to 70 in one day. You absolutely never should compare pre-70 item progress with D2 item progress, it's just entirely different and like comparing apples and cars (not even apples and oranges, both fruits, so too much in common).
Low-level legendary items were never supposed to be used for longer than the next ~10 levels. Most players probably haven't seen a pre-70 legendary since March 24 (I exclusively level my characters through paragon XP from Orek such that I don't get any pre-70 drops). Of all the items in clan chat, and those are hundreds every day, probably there's one or two every week which is pre-70. It's just not a priority in D3 itemization right now, and with the fast-paced road to 70 in seasons I don't think that'll change anytime soon.
But still don't you think that the amount that you were rewarded in Diablo 2 was more than what you were rewarded in Diablo 3? I mean to me it's like you start off very strong and you only get a little bit. Shouldent it be that you start off weak and then distingush yourself with the power?
What does that mean, "the amount that you were rewarded"? It's very difficult to compare how I *felt* 10 years ago. From what I remember, D2 was never able to motivate me for as long as D3 does currently. There's only one thing that I thought was better in D2, and that was that there were more items that took AGES to farm - like all those super rare uniques, and especially high level runes with all the high level runewords. Those took forever, I actually never saw most. I was really happy when I read the bluepost that said "there's a fair chance that you'll never get a complete set". Great! That was the kind of longevity I was hoping for. I think in order to really feel the achievement of beating a game or acquiring an item, there needs to be a realistic chance of never getting it. Therefore, despite my grudge after 500+ hours on my wiz in RoS alone without Wand of Woh, I think this is a good example: if I ever get this weapon, I'll be super happy, because it's super rare. There should be more like that. The biggest mistake, imho, was when they made class sets so easily available: they should be as rare as they were pre-2.0.6, and they should've never been added to Kadala. Biggest mistake ever, in my opinion.
Other than that, D3 "rewards me with more" than D2 ever did. In D2, I felt that there was no point in getting better gear, because it did not unlock a new playstyle. Unlocking a new playstyle, even if you found a cool new unique that sparked an idea for a build, entailed leveling up a new character to 80+ - and by the time I had done this (mind you, i did not do any crazy powerleveling that ensured getting to 80 easily) I already lost interest in that build. In D3, although all my classes are T5+ ready, none of them is perfectly geared - I've got things to hunt for all of them. Lots of stuff to do. And I still get upgrades fairly regularly - I'd say at least every week, lately even almost every night because it's 2.1 preparation time and I've been doing lots of T6 farming. In D2, just ~2 weeks into a new ladder I'd run Baal for a few dozen times a night and find nothing, get bored, and stop playing. That is something that has not yet happened to me in RoS. And with 2.1 upon us, I don't expect this to happen before the end of the year.
Realize while typing this out that I sound like the most helpless fanboy there is. But well... that's just how I feel. The game's in good shape for me right now. (Except for that freaking WoW that eludes me, of course, but that's for the RNG thread ;-))
The point I was trying to make was that in Diablo 2 you would start off weak but would quickly progress. You felt frail early on but as you gained power you felt like a total badass. In Diablo 3, you start off with VERY strong skills. You're able to destroy monsters even in expert difficulity sometimes, every skill's effect looks powerful. You don't get as much of an increase in power as you did in Diablo 2. In diablo 2 the over tthe top spells like blizzard and meteor were rewarded to you later on. It was far more clear that you were gaining power. Even if the tuning was off.
On a side note items in Diablo 2 had more affixes to them that feel rewarding. It takes a legendary item now to give you a chance to proc posiion nova whenever you attack. Whereas it took a rare or even magic item back in diablo 2. Legendary items are the only items that have intresting and rewarding affixes. The items in Diablo 2 built upon your characters choices.
here in D3, when I picked up a legendary weapon on let's say lvl 42. about 3-4 levels later, a rare weapon could almost outshine it ..
99% of players simply skip the pre-70 game, so there was little effort put into balancing this. Maybe it'll change a bit with seasons, but don't think so. Even very casual players can get to 70 in one day. You absolutely never should compare pre-70 item progress with D2 item progress, it's just entirely different and like comparing apples and cars (not even apples and oranges, both fruits, so too much in common).
Low-level legendary items were never supposed to be used for longer than the next ~10 levels. Most players probably haven't seen a pre-70 legendary since March 24 (I exclusively level my characters through paragon XP from Orek such that I don't get any pre-70 drops). Of all the items in clan chat, and those are hundreds every day, probably there's one or two every week which is pre-70. It's just not a priority in D3 itemization right now, and with the fast-paced road to 70 in seasons I don't think that'll change anytime soon.
The problem with the pre game is that. It's a pregame. Practically all of your progress is lost upon hitting level 70. Instead of every level being important like in Diablo 2. Every level in Diablo 3 is just a step until you have a complete character. Only THEN can you really start your progression.
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The addicting and defining feature of any RPG is progression. You start off weak and as you are rewarded with things like skills and items you become more powerful and the rewards feel good because they make you more powerful. This is where D3 loses the mark, instead of trying to make it feel like you've progressed and become more powerful, that you've been rewarded D3 just opts to make you feel like a god all the time. The only problem with that is once you're a god you have no where to go. The abilities we start with are a perfect example of this. Every spell is over the top, you don't have this unified sense of progression like you had in Diablo 2. Where you would start off with a weak skill like ice bolt and then over the course of your leveling process attain stronger skills that increased in effectiveness and became more visually potent as you put more skill points into them (think how you got more charged bolts the more points you put in). D3 simply hands you all the skills in rapid succession each tuned to look and feel very strong.
The character leveling system and is culpable to this too. In D3 the developers preference for massively high numbers and the fact that monsters share the same level as you boil to a grotesque mix. Because damage and health values of monsters have to jump noticeably most levels so that those numbers can eventually be as high as hundreds of thousands the monsters you fight end up getting an advantage in power over you that you won't overcome until you find new gear. You have this roller coaster of power, instead of a smooth curve upwards like in Diablo 2 you suddenly go from single digits on gear to double digits to hundreds and even to thousands. Rendering any good gear you may have found along the way worthless.You're powerful for one second and then weak the next. Winning a good legendary item is invalidated by simply leveling up a few times.
The leveling system is supposed to offer a form of progression and customization alongside loot. But in D3 the cap is 70 simply to get all the runes for your character, The advantage of a system like Diablo 2 is that leveling up feels rewarding. you get to put in stat points to make your character feel stronger, whenever you add points to a skill that skill is inherently more strong as well.
What do you all think? Does Diablo 3 do a good job at character progression or no?
EDIT: I just wanted to add; the point of increasing in strength as level up is not just so the system can look pretty. It's so as you are playing the game you feel rewarded by getting level ups and new items/skills. It feels weird in the abstract. because nobody likes to feel weak, but the point of feeling weak is so you have the urge to get new items/skills and feel strong. As well as the hope that you feel good whenever you get them.
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On the other hand, if leveling up just increases the power of abilities they already have, you may as well attach that power either to their bases stats or their items, and get rid of the fake complexity and/or underwhelming rewards from having a conga-line of "+2% to fire skills", "-2% mana consumption" crapskills that I hate (screw you, Torchlight2... you let me down badly).
However, the fact is that as well as being focused on power acquisition, aRPGs are necessarily grindy. By giving us all of our abilities within a few hours of gameplay, but having cross-account gear and paragon levels, D3 sacrifices some degree of power-through-progression for a many more options that take the edge off the tedium. Whether that works or not is, obviously, subjective... but at least Blizzard didn't just barf up "Diablo 2 HD".
What's mostly missing is the incentive to switch things up in the form of build-baiting legendaries. Blizzard isn't dropping those in as fast as they should, but that's the direction they're headed.
Why in the world would you want to slog through garbage spells that are shitty-on-purpose so that you can appreciate the good ones? That's masochistic and it also means that stuff like icebolt weren't anything more than filler spells until you got to X level when you unlock <spell that's better in every circumstance>.
I don't want items that suck. I don't want skills that suck. I don't want the philosophy behind upgrading my character to be "hey, this item doesn't suck, and you've spend 30 levels getting nothing but things that do suck... so isn't that great?" We already have that with legendaries and it SUCKS. No one gives two shits about an Angel Hair Braid. They're speedbumps. They're fodder for enchanting and crafting. They are, by design, exactly the things that you say make character progression awesome in ARPGs.... yet the community absolutely hates them.
Character progression in Diablo 3 is mainly focusing on items. Not exclusively though - paragon is just as important as well. 50-100 paragon points give you about the equivalent of one primary stat, so getting to paragon 200 means you progressed as much as if you'd unlocked an additional item slot. The different between a paragon 200 and a paragon 600 character is HUGE. It's definitely better than in Diablo 2, in my opinion, where the leveling curve was very steep towards the end for somewhat smaller benefits (I never felt the urge to get to 99, but I somewhat are looking forward to hitting 600 "soon"). But comparing D2 levels and D3 paragon is obviously very subjective. D3 is totally different, caters more to long-term players (especially until we have seasons), and is more open. In D2 everyone was forced to restart a lot, even softcore non-ladder you had to restart once you realized you had chosen some wrong skills... in D3, I don't have to dismiss all my progress if I decide that I want to switch some things.
That leaves itemization. As shaggy said, there are a lot of useless items (Angel Hair Braid as he mentioned) but also check out the thread I recently posted (it's on the front page) to see that a looooooot of those "useless" items are gonna get changed as well. So, many of those "useless speedbumps" will be turned into amazing game-changing legendaries in the near future. I personally like that. I don't want to be forced to "restart" my progression just because I figured that the build I had envisioned for my level 80 sorceress doesn't work. If I like restarting character progress, I can play hardcore or seasons (soon). I like the freedom of switching builds and items and trying out new things without losing progression.
What I meant by useless speed bumps is that by order of pure numbers. I.e not enough vitality and main stat on the item it would have to be replaced within a few levels. I do look forward to many of the changes though
The thing about progression with legendaries is that they change your character instead of just building upon it like D2 did. When you picked up a rare or otherwise high quality item it would give you good stats, other powers like "10% to cast level 2 frost nova on striking" and things like that. Along with many other buffs like half freeze duration, extra % damage against undead or what have you. This isn't necessarily bad, the problem is that when the rewards that are far and wide are the only pieces of loot that change your character fundamentally you sometimes feel like you're not being compensated.
Edit; Sorry if I sounded like a dick not my intent. Bad with socializing sometimes.
Every system is a weigh of benefits versus costs. If you look at the costs of the Diablo 3 system you see. Lack of character identity, lack of replay ability, you can't specialize in builds that aren't predetermined to you through the passive skill system. At the same time you get the freedom to try out new builds. But is that really a good thing? When you can try all unique builds in minutes rather than weeks you lose replay ability, when you can change your tanky barbarian into a damage oriented one within a few seconds what does that do to character identity?
Patches changing around the landscape of a build surely is a problem. But it's not one that can't be worked You can give those affected re specs like you pointed out.
Like I said, I certainly agree that Diablo 2 was too extreme. But there are ways to work around that. Maybe it could be a hybrid of what we have now. What if for example we had the synergistic skill trees but you put your points into skills were you got all of the runes for that skill. So you could still switch your build around if it wasn't working for you.
Referring to replay ability. It's a big fear I have with D3. What happens once we hit paragon level 600? You can't really do that much more from there. It's true of your other characters too. They start off with a huge head start and that nerfs even the game play THEY have left.
I think the legendary gems in 2.1 will add nicely to longevity: you might get one gem to 200 quite easily. Getting most (or all) of them to 200 will take lots of time. And then most of those gems have no upgrade limit, and I can see people running with a rank 1000 gem, there's probably be some fun gear combinations. Imagine a Mirinae gem at rank 1000 (equiv to 250 with the current system), dealing 6000% damage to your enemies occasionally. Yeah... I think there's stuff to do. No worries.
It's really difficult to assess Reaper of Souls and its longevity. I know some people who have been playing non-stop since 2.0.1 hit. I know some people who got frustrated early on and left. It's certainly better than in D3V, but of course you can never satisfy everyone. If you get lucky and gear out your character in a few weeks (totally possible), for softcore non-ladder you might run out of motivation unless you're an achievement hunter or perfectionist. There are also people who have played hundreds of hours since release and still aren't at T6. RNG, personal preference, so many things that come into play. But the basic foundation of RoS isn't that bad. And if they continue pushing out patches, fixes, and new content (skill balancing, new legendaries) I'm pretty sure this "not bad" changes to "excellent" for the majority of players. Never for everyone, of course... there'll always be people for whom the main activity in D2 was trading, or PvP, or stuff like that which is just not on D3's agenda anymore.
come to think of it, for the sake of being different does not guarantee a better product.
i remember picking up a unique bow in D2 on nightmare. I felt so strong since then even if I levelled up. I only had a difficulty when I went into Hell mode but it still made a difference.
here in D3, when I picked up a legendary weapon on let's say lvl 42. about 3-4 levels later, a rare weapon could almost outshine it ..
Other than that, D3 "rewards me with more" than D2 ever did. In D2, I felt that there was no point in getting better gear, because it did not unlock a new playstyle. Unlocking a new playstyle, even if you found a cool new unique that sparked an idea for a build, entailed leveling up a new character to 80+ - and by the time I had done this (mind you, i did not do any crazy powerleveling that ensured getting to 80 easily) I already lost interest in that build. In D3, although all my classes are T5+ ready, none of them is perfectly geared - I've got things to hunt for all of them. Lots of stuff to do. And I still get upgrades fairly regularly - I'd say at least every week, lately even almost every night because it's 2.1 preparation time and I've been doing lots of T6 farming. In D2, just ~2 weeks into a new ladder I'd run Baal for a few dozen times a night and find nothing, get bored, and stop playing. That is something that has not yet happened to me in RoS. And with 2.1 upon us, I don't expect this to happen before the end of the year.
Realize while typing this out that I sound like the most helpless fanboy there is. But well... that's just how I feel. The game's in good shape for me right now. (Except for that freaking WoW that eludes me, of course, but that's for the RNG thread ;-))
Low-level legendary items were never supposed to be used for longer than the next ~10 levels. Most players probably haven't seen a pre-70 legendary since March 24 (I exclusively level my characters through paragon XP from Orek such that I don't get any pre-70 drops). Of all the items in clan chat, and those are hundreds every day, probably there's one or two every week which is pre-70. It's just not a priority in D3 itemization right now, and with the fast-paced road to 70 in seasons I don't think that'll change anytime soon.
On a side note items in Diablo 2 had more affixes to them that feel rewarding. It takes a legendary item now to give you a chance to proc posiion nova whenever you attack. Whereas it took a rare or even magic item back in diablo 2. Legendary items are the only items that have intresting and rewarding affixes. The items in Diablo 2 built upon your characters choices.