Hi,I have been looking at cold and lightning monks recently, as I currently run a lightning monk, but have heard good things about new cold runes. Both builds will center around SSS + EP.
As I see it, to make full use of SSS + EP synergy, both madstone and flow of eternity are considered to be vital items (I like this, it shifts focus off of dual wields, and onto the under-appreciated daibo, which was only largely used on TR builds for speed runs in low T modes).
Skills which may be considered as essential to both elements are EP, SSS and CS (to maximize the effects of EP). This should leave numerous empty slots for tweaking/play-style preference/dmg optimization (blinding flash - faith in the light).
At first glance, the obvious choice by element would be cold, because you have no significant spirit drain to consider (free SSS), on top of this, EP deals 6305% weapon dmg (as opposed to 2770%). Most people would stop here and make their decision at this point, but not me. I see lightning as being in close competition for the following reasons; lightning EP affects 2 targets, this will effectively cause 2770% blast in the initial area, and 2770% blasts to mobs at an extended range, essentially dealing 5540% weapon dmg (dependent on number of mobs present). Simply, lightning EP has the ability to spread the same amount of dmg over a larger area. Another consideration is SSS, since the lightning rune has higher skill dmg (now boosted to 8285%), this change to SSS should enable faster kills on EP targets, providing more booms, more often (but at a lower dmg per boom). Possibly also worth mentioning is the reduced cost on CS, as spirit generation is considered an issue on 2h builds.
If anybody is willing and able, could you please test and provide feedback on the above skills, using balanced skill/element dmg bonuses (also without use of dmg bonus passives - eliminates some inconsistency in results caused by less than perfect use of dmg bonuses - most notably combination strike + mythic rhythm used to full effect, adding 70% dmg bonus).
Below are some additional considerations I have made towards optimizing either build.
Use of 6pc monk set to provide dashing strike proc. Using blinding flash, this can provide a 30% (+ a further 20% from relentless assault) dmg bonus to dashing strike, CS, SSS and ideally, also EP (would require skills to be used in immediate succession). Flow of eternity + decent CDR (doesn't need to be maxed) should provide synchronized cool-downs for blinding flash, SSS and dashing strike (currently this is working at 50% cdr + FoE). I feel this would be my preferred build as it provides mobility, heavy burst dmg and relatively low cool-downs (roughly 6 sec downtime - can be reduced with gogok of swiftness), it also makes 6pc feel less clunky because you no longer couple it with jawbreaker to dash in, run out, dash in, etc. It now becomes more fluid as you buff, dash in, pull mobs, SSS and finish off anything left over, before moving to next group and doing it again.
Note: Does not allow use of depth diggers, forfeiting a potential 100% dmg bonus to primary generators (likely WotHF - HoL. or Crippling Wave - Tsunami).
Another option would be the use of sunwuko's which would add 1600% holy dmg procs during SSS. These gears would not allow the use of dashing strike's proc, and if i am not mistaken, current operation of this proc is being nerfed when used with SSS (currently SSS procs sunwuko multiple times per cast). In addition to the dmg loss from no dashing strike proc, these gears also require an amulet slot, which means you cannot use hellfire amulet or haunt of vaxo, so there are a number of dmg trade-offs to be considered when using this set. For these reasons, I would not consider it to be the best option, although it certainly has its uses (may become viable if SSS procs don't get nerfed).
Note: Allows use of depth diggers for up to 100% dmg bonus on primary generators.
AS long as white mobs are available and are pulled onto elites and targeted with EP (SSS primary target is an elite, and white mob behind it is affected by rune effect), they will still be providing the full dmg potential of a lightning EP to all of the Elites at once. Yes lightning would be better focused on whites, but it is not ineffective against elites. Lightning SSS (much more reliable for dealing with elites) provides substantially higher dmg per hit than the cold rune equivalent. As both skills overlap (SSS + EP), it is necessary to test them together, not simply 1 or the other (must be done using madstone for full effect). Cold rune (EP) will always provide higher maximum dmg output on a nearby single target (6305% > 5540%). That said, the lightning rune (SSS) will provide over 2000% extra dmg above cold rune (SSS).
TL:DR
Cold should be better suited for smaller groups, while lightning should be better suited for larger groups and single targets. It is always assumed that you have enough DPS to proc ur EP in a timely manner.
I hate double posting, but this is not really relevant to my original topic.
I have been testing more elements for a madstone + FoE + EP + SSS build, and to gauge how "balanced" I feel they are. Whilst doing this, I used an EP rune which I had never even considered before. That is when I decided that it needs to change...
Exploding Palm/Strong Spirit - cost 40 spirit. effect - gives you spirit for mobs you kill.
Really, so you mean I can spend spirit to get back even less spirit? that sounds.... terrible. Holy builds are very much on their way to being a useful monk build (almost in line with lightning and cold monks). Fair enough, when you combine this effect with madstone, where you are no longer paying the cost, it becomes free spirit (if nothing else), but what about those who do not use/have madstone and still want a holy build. TR isnt going to fill the slot, it has all the cost of a channeled skill, with none of the power, much like strafe (as devs intend it), this may be nice for very low T modes for speed clearing, but it certainly hasn't got any other use. Other options include dashing strike, with practically no dmg, and a relatively long CD for the dmg output it does provide. mantra of conviction/submission which is ok, but which has very trivial dmg output and wave of light which has decent dmg at a reduced spirit cost, but only really places it at the level it should sit at realistically, as a default unruned skill. Reworking these runes could add some serious build diversity, they all have incredible potential, and so I hate to see these skills going to such waste.
TL:DR
Due to a lack of decent holy runes on spenders, holy build is not currently up to scratch, this is really disappointing as holy should be the main focus of a monk class. I would really like to see a change with the holy EP rune so that it will be comparable to the others, perhaps it could also cause a blinding explosion (would proc relentless assault passive),
in my opinion, if one would choose a cold rune EP, then it would be better to support it with cold - SSS and cold CS, maybe even adding SW cold. this way i don't really understand how the lightning EP deals double damage in your case. only if you palm once (which you normally don't do, especially if wearing madstone) then you would have 2 EPs for cost of 1, but in any other scenario i would use the EP with according element to build, since it (should) scales with your %elem dmg. Somehow, I like the idea of daibos, too, but they're just toooo weak to use for now, as all 2handers. Also, this way you would lose a bit of potential of EP. Therefore i would not miss the possibility to use Fist of Az and supporting EP.
For me personally, the only viable and fluently playable build is my Holy Madness monk: Using the unique ability of the new Madstone - which now also uses the EP you want it to - and combining it with CS (maximizing use of EP + Strongarm proc, passives) and Inner Sanctuary & Blinding Flash. Problem is, you only can play it fluently and effectively if, and only if you MAX everything that can carry CDR. For me it works best of all and this is how it looks like:
Core items - Madstone + SWK(shoulders/gloves/amu) + Fist of Az
also borns chest+weapon, Cpt Crimson boots+pants, RoRG with CDR and SoJ,Unity,Other ring with CDR
CDR preferrably maxed, also on the new Vigilante Belt (8%)
%holy dmg on Strongarms,(SoJ) and preferrably on SWK amulet if possible.
this skillset with Relentless Assault & Determination as last 2 passives for more DPS.
For me, the reason behind this build is the SWK proc: it deals holy dmg and i wanted to make use of it as often as possible. Hopefully they will not rework/nerf Madstone to proc SWK, because it would make SWK set really useless. Someone might say "Strong Spirit on EP is wasted. I sayi chose all skills as Holy, also the holy rune of EP because it scales with Fist of Az and %holy dmg then -> dealing almost double damage with FoA only and much more with additional %holy. (My EP crits desipte a really crappy SWK amulet are still around ~80-90mil, thus improvable). Epiphany as "only" spirit generator and additional mitigation with Desert Shroud. In addition with IS-FP you almost don't receive damage for several seconds, or just use Serenity-Ascension.
In progression to maxed CDRs on items, the rune of SSS could be Sudden Assault (lower CD), and as mentioned before instead of IS-FP -> Serenity-Ascension if dying frequently/probs with elites.
You said "It now becomes more fluid as you buff, dash in, pull mobs, SSS and finish off anything left over, before moving to next group and doing it again."- I think you would make your 6pc 1k Storms set less efficient, because you have too many breaks in between the dashes, which don't sustain the dmg output of 1k Storms on its own (especially if you have Jawbreaker). Simply because SSS on its own doesnt do remarkable damage, CS & EP drain too much spirit, especially with SSS - which a standard 1k Storms set doesn't provide enough of.
As Druin already mentioned it very detailed on the official forums, the only more or less viable monk spender is LTK. Everything else is purely bulls**t. TR too weak, WoL is ... c'moooon forget it, and SSS on itself without FoE/mass CDR is really unefficient and quite useless. I know the Cold aspect looks interesting, but atm I don't see a single viable build rising out of it. The core problem of creating viable new builds at the moment is very difficult, simply because you will always return to CDR & Epiphany. Everything else is weaker/clunkier/less viable/less efficient. Unless they put all effort on reworking Monk class, I personally don't see much reason to search for (non-existent) viable other builds.
Firstly, you seem to have misunderstood that either build will use all matching ele dmg (ie. SSS, EP, CS will all use either the lightning rune for a lightning build, or the cold rune for a cold build).
Secondly, it is clearly stated that madstone will cause 7 palms, what you seem to be misunderstanding is that this will cause 14 immediate explosions on a lightning build, and 7 on a cold build - it was stated that SSS dmg will be high enough to kill at least 1 mob (this will trigger all of the others due to a chain reaction, given ideal conditions are met, which they usually are).
Third, dashing in and performing a CS + SSS at location for short burst dmg is most definitely less clunky than dashing in and running out, just so you can dash in again (where 2 mob groups are present, any clunkiness is removed, the same is true where a channeling pylon has been activated - these are both very situational).
Just a quick note that blizzard has mentioned some internal testing and reworking of monk, in particular options for spirit, including a larger base pool (i feel regen is the greater issue).
Possibly also worth a mention, your proposed build is based on 2.0.6 and includes one with everything (no longer exists on ptr), also worth noting, fist of az will likely function less effectively in 2.1, and places too much reliance on a single skill (EP), The builds I had mentioned rely on SSS, EP, CS (to support use of SSS and EP) and primary skills (possibly taking advantage of the legendary gem), this would provide a build which has no strict reliance on 1 particular skill, and which uses some very supportive gear (FoE + madstone) to provide numerous skills with comparable power which fits well with the game's focus on high numbers of short battles. i do expect some increased synergy, and have definitely considered SWK + holy, however, due to options for EP, WoL and TR in the way of holy runes, it just isn't at the same level as the other elements at this time (i really hope this changes, because i would love to play a holy monk).
Finally, I never once said that any of these builds were viable, if i wanted a guaranteed viable build, I would gear a different character. The main purpose of this thread is essentially to pick up on the overall strengths and weaknesses of different monk builds, and to compare their relative power at the current stage of PTR. I felt that lightning and cold deserved a mention because they each provided a similar overall level of power. I personally feel it is best to have multiple builds for any given class, where each perform equally well. The key however is to provide them each with comparable levels of power, while making available builds such as pure dps, speed, support, tank, etc.
Note: I personally feel that Blizzard would have an easier time in tweaking skills if they created entire builds, and then compared their relative power AND utility. This would help to minimize issues stemming from overpowered skills, and would help in diversifying T6 builds ,as well as group play. Some people may argue that there will always be a best build, and that is fine (it is never going to be possible to fully balance everything, perfection is an unattainable goal). The real goal here is to provide competitive T6, GR100 and Ubers builds. Some people may argue that players looking for playable builds should stick to lower difficulties, this is not a realistic solution, the game's difficulty should never feel too easy, nor too hard, it should feel challenging, but manageable with appropriate experience (familiarity with a build), and sensible gear/skill building (use of stats and skills which support one another). The main issue with lower T mode farming is the noticeably reduced legendary drop rates, and this will be made more evident when GRifts come into play (try upgrading a gem to lvl 50 on low GRift lvl, now try doing it 6 times).
TL:DR
This thread is not overly interested in identifying T6/GR100 viable builds at this stage, it is more concerned with evaluating the current state of element balancing on some more preferred skills.
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As I see it, to make full use of SSS + EP synergy, both madstone and flow of eternity are considered to be vital items (I like this, it shifts focus off of dual wields, and onto the under-appreciated daibo, which was only largely used on TR builds for speed runs in low T modes).
Skills which may be considered as essential to both elements are EP, SSS and CS (to maximize the effects of EP). This should leave numerous empty slots for tweaking/play-style preference/dmg optimization (blinding flash - faith in the light).
At first glance, the obvious choice by element would be cold, because you have no significant spirit drain to consider (free SSS), on top of this, EP deals 6305% weapon dmg (as opposed to 2770%). Most people would stop here and make their decision at this point, but not me. I see lightning as being in close competition for the following reasons; lightning EP affects 2 targets, this will effectively cause 2770% blast in the initial area, and 2770% blasts to mobs at an extended range, essentially dealing 5540% weapon dmg (dependent on number of mobs present). Simply, lightning EP has the ability to spread the same amount of dmg over a larger area. Another consideration is SSS, since the lightning rune has higher skill dmg (now boosted to 8285%), this change to SSS should enable faster kills on EP targets, providing more booms, more often (but at a lower dmg per boom). Possibly also worth mentioning is the reduced cost on CS, as spirit generation is considered an issue on 2h builds.
If anybody is willing and able, could you please test and provide feedback on the above skills, using balanced skill/element dmg bonuses (also without use of dmg bonus passives - eliminates some inconsistency in results caused by less than perfect use of dmg bonuses - most notably combination strike + mythic rhythm used to full effect, adding 70% dmg bonus).
Below are some additional considerations I have made towards optimizing either build.
Use of 6pc monk set to provide dashing strike proc. Using blinding flash, this can provide a 30% (+ a further 20% from relentless assault) dmg bonus to dashing strike, CS, SSS and ideally, also EP (would require skills to be used in immediate succession). Flow of eternity + decent CDR (doesn't need to be maxed) should provide synchronized cool-downs for blinding flash, SSS and dashing strike (currently this is working at 50% cdr + FoE). I feel this would be my preferred build as it provides mobility, heavy burst dmg and relatively low cool-downs (roughly 6 sec downtime - can be reduced with gogok of swiftness), it also makes 6pc feel less clunky because you no longer couple it with jawbreaker to dash in, run out, dash in, etc. It now becomes more fluid as you buff, dash in, pull mobs, SSS and finish off anything left over, before moving to next group and doing it again.
Note: Does not allow use of depth diggers, forfeiting a potential 100% dmg bonus to primary generators (likely WotHF - HoL. or Crippling Wave - Tsunami).
Another option would be the use of sunwuko's which would add 1600% holy dmg procs during SSS. These gears would not allow the use of dashing strike's proc, and if i am not mistaken, current operation of this proc is being nerfed when used with SSS (currently SSS procs sunwuko multiple times per cast). In addition to the dmg loss from no dashing strike proc, these gears also require an amulet slot, which means you cannot use hellfire amulet or haunt of vaxo, so there are a number of dmg trade-offs to be considered when using this set. For these reasons, I would not consider it to be the best option, although it certainly has its uses (may become viable if SSS procs don't get nerfed).
Note: Allows use of depth diggers for up to 100% dmg bonus on primary generators.
Thanks for reading, feedback welcome
TL:DR
Cold should be better suited for smaller groups, while lightning should be better suited for larger groups and single targets. It is always assumed that you have enough DPS to proc ur EP in a timely manner.
I have been testing more elements for a madstone + FoE + EP + SSS build, and to gauge how "balanced" I feel they are. Whilst doing this, I used an EP rune which I had never even considered before. That is when I decided that it needs to change...
Exploding Palm/Strong Spirit - cost 40 spirit. effect - gives you spirit for mobs you kill.
Really, so you mean I can spend spirit to get back even less spirit? that sounds.... terrible. Holy builds are very much on their way to being a useful monk build (almost in line with lightning and cold monks). Fair enough, when you combine this effect with madstone, where you are no longer paying the cost, it becomes free spirit (if nothing else), but what about those who do not use/have madstone and still want a holy build. TR isnt going to fill the slot, it has all the cost of a channeled skill, with none of the power, much like strafe (as devs intend it), this may be nice for very low T modes for speed clearing, but it certainly hasn't got any other use. Other options include dashing strike, with practically no dmg, and a relatively long CD for the dmg output it does provide. mantra of conviction/submission which is ok, but which has very trivial dmg output and wave of light which has decent dmg at a reduced spirit cost, but only really places it at the level it should sit at realistically, as a default unruned skill. Reworking these runes could add some serious build diversity, they all have incredible potential, and so I hate to see these skills going to such waste.
TL:DR
Due to a lack of decent holy runes on spenders, holy build is not currently up to scratch, this is really disappointing as holy should be the main focus of a monk class. I would really like to see a change with the holy EP rune so that it will be comparable to the others, perhaps it could also cause a blinding explosion (would proc relentless assault passive),
For me personally, the only viable and fluently playable build is my Holy Madness monk: Using the unique ability of the new Madstone - which now also uses the EP you want it to - and combining it with CS (maximizing use of EP + Strongarm proc, passives) and Inner Sanctuary & Blinding Flash. Problem is, you only can play it fluently and effectively if, and only if you MAX everything that can carry CDR. For me it works best of all and this is how it looks like:
Core items - Madstone + SWK(shoulders/gloves/amu) + Fist of Az
also borns chest+weapon, Cpt Crimson boots+pants, RoRG with CDR and SoJ,Unity,Other ring with CDR
CDR preferrably maxed, also on the new Vigilante Belt (8%)
%holy dmg on Strongarms,(SoJ) and preferrably on SWK amulet if possible.
this skillset with Relentless Assault & Determination as last 2 passives for more DPS.
For me, the reason behind this build is the SWK proc: it deals holy dmg and i wanted to make use of it as often as possible. Hopefully they will not rework/nerf Madstone to proc SWK, because it would make SWK set really useless. Someone might say "Strong Spirit on EP is wasted. I sayi chose all skills as Holy, also the holy rune of EP because it scales with Fist of Az and %holy dmg then -> dealing almost double damage with FoA only and much more with additional %holy. (My EP crits desipte a really crappy SWK amulet are still around ~80-90mil, thus improvable). Epiphany as "only" spirit generator and additional mitigation with Desert Shroud. In addition with IS-FP you almost don't receive damage for several seconds, or just use Serenity-Ascension.
In progression to maxed CDRs on items, the rune of SSS could be Sudden Assault (lower CD), and as mentioned before instead of IS-FP -> Serenity-Ascension if dying frequently/probs with elites.
You said "It now becomes more fluid as you buff, dash in, pull mobs, SSS and finish off anything left over, before moving to next group and doing it again."- I think you would make your 6pc 1k Storms set less efficient, because you have too many breaks in between the dashes, which don't sustain the dmg output of 1k Storms on its own (especially if you have Jawbreaker). Simply because SSS on its own doesnt do remarkable damage, CS & EP drain too much spirit, especially with SSS - which a standard 1k Storms set doesn't provide enough of.
As Druin already mentioned it very detailed on the official forums, the only more or less viable monk spender is LTK. Everything else is purely bulls**t. TR too weak, WoL is ... c'moooon forget it, and SSS on itself without FoE/mass CDR is really unefficient and quite useless. I know the Cold aspect looks interesting, but atm I don't see a single viable build rising out of it. The core problem of creating viable new builds at the moment is very difficult, simply because you will always return to CDR & Epiphany. Everything else is weaker/clunkier/less viable/less efficient. Unless they put all effort on reworking Monk class, I personally don't see much reason to search for (non-existent) viable other builds.
Secondly, it is clearly stated that madstone will cause 7 palms, what you seem to be misunderstanding is that this will cause 14 immediate explosions on a lightning build, and 7 on a cold build - it was stated that SSS dmg will be high enough to kill at least 1 mob (this will trigger all of the others due to a chain reaction, given ideal conditions are met, which they usually are).
Third, dashing in and performing a CS + SSS at location for short burst dmg is most definitely less clunky than dashing in and running out, just so you can dash in again (where 2 mob groups are present, any clunkiness is removed, the same is true where a channeling pylon has been activated - these are both very situational).
Just a quick note that blizzard has mentioned some internal testing and reworking of monk, in particular options for spirit, including a larger base pool (i feel regen is the greater issue).
Possibly also worth a mention, your proposed build is based on 2.0.6 and includes one with everything (no longer exists on ptr), also worth noting, fist of az will likely function less effectively in 2.1, and places too much reliance on a single skill (EP), The builds I had mentioned rely on SSS, EP, CS (to support use of SSS and EP) and primary skills (possibly taking advantage of the legendary gem), this would provide a build which has no strict reliance on 1 particular skill, and which uses some very supportive gear (FoE + madstone) to provide numerous skills with comparable power which fits well with the game's focus on high numbers of short battles. i do expect some increased synergy, and have definitely considered SWK + holy, however, due to options for EP, WoL and TR in the way of holy runes, it just isn't at the same level as the other elements at this time (i really hope this changes, because i would love to play a holy monk).
Finally, I never once said that any of these builds were viable, if i wanted a guaranteed viable build, I would gear a different character. The main purpose of this thread is essentially to pick up on the overall strengths and weaknesses of different monk builds, and to compare their relative power at the current stage of PTR. I felt that lightning and cold deserved a mention because they each provided a similar overall level of power. I personally feel it is best to have multiple builds for any given class, where each perform equally well. The key however is to provide them each with comparable levels of power, while making available builds such as pure dps, speed, support, tank, etc.
Note: I personally feel that Blizzard would have an easier time in tweaking skills if they created entire builds, and then compared their relative power AND utility. This would help to minimize issues stemming from overpowered skills, and would help in diversifying T6 builds ,as well as group play. Some people may argue that there will always be a best build, and that is fine (it is never going to be possible to fully balance everything, perfection is an unattainable goal). The real goal here is to provide competitive T6, GR100 and Ubers builds. Some people may argue that players looking for playable builds should stick to lower difficulties, this is not a realistic solution, the game's difficulty should never feel too easy, nor too hard, it should feel challenging, but manageable with appropriate experience (familiarity with a build), and sensible gear/skill building (use of stats and skills which support one another). The main issue with lower T mode farming is the noticeably reduced legendary drop rates, and this will be made more evident when GRifts come into play (try upgrading a gem to lvl 50 on low GRift lvl, now try doing it 6 times).
TL:DR
This thread is not overly interested in identifying T6/GR100 viable builds at this stage, it is more concerned with evaluating the current state of element balancing on some more preferred skills.