This thread was to just vent a little about recent changes on the PTR and just the whole of ROS in general. It feels like a roller coaster for a lot of classes, and other classes just have smooth sailing (crusader?) What i mean is that while wizards and wd's constantly have been getting buffs and nerfs, lot of the other classes just get buffs and move on, and still as op as they were prior to PTR. (more changes coming, nothing final etc)
Monks are having a lot of changes atm too, and i guess i am just frustrated that blizzard just doesn't get us, the players that play this game. I feel they just only see the game, and its balance, the numbers, and how it will play out, they dont care about individual builds, gameplay, playstyles, they make changes that just dont make a lot of sense, and if you argue about it, people say oh its a change for the greater good or think of the overall effect etc..i get that..i really do
This game is missing a core of what made d2 so good and played for so long, being able to make multiple builds, and if you geared them right and got the right items they could all do well in whatever you wanted to do, you were always trying to find that few key items that made the build shine, then you created another sorcerer and did it again, making a cold sorc, then making a melee sorc? both were awesome fun...in d3 atm neither one of those is anywhere near as good or effective as say fire or some arcane build, ie 2 builds, forget the rest. Would love to build a melee wizard again.
You can argue that yes it was kinda a pain/worthless to level up several of the same class just to change builds, and it was, our system in d3 today is better in most things in regards to that, but it lacks depth, it lacks the experimentation, the variety, its now all about efficiency/optimal for end game, its not how you get there, its about you are there already now what build do you use, pick 2 because that's all they really give you
Most classes only have a few "viable" builds for t6 and GR's, its the same old builds, sometimes they get a tweak here or there, or a set buff, or minor % upgrades...but essentially its always the same builds, its whatever does the most damage, because the game is so focused on health on mobs, they just keep scaling up...but us players have fallen behind...it will get better with leg gems, and hellfire amulet..new legs and affixes...but these are minor bandaids to the overall problem we have NOW, not in 3 months from now...its the CURRENT game i am frustrated about
The thread with ideas on alternatives to just scaling mobs health into the trillions was a great start, give us something to measure/strive for other than more damage, give us 3 or 4 builds even per class, some have more than 2, others dont...there's no balance at all in regards to potential of individual classes, they could fix this easily, and yet they dont, they rather everyone be the same build, and same gear...but why?
Also frustrated that they give us cool new stuff, then they pull it back, and say its not intended, ie depth diggers and wd/wizards recently, that change was amazing and great for my wd, i was aucutally changing builds and having fun again...for about a week...
maybe they will finally start shifting the game around to alternative challenges, and allowing more builds that aren't focused all on dps, and more on sustained damage and survivability, more class synergy in groups, buffs, something that is also lacking atm, monks are buff bots, people created Zdps build just for that purpose...just to have a different build that is useful in t6+
TLDR; what frustrates you atm in current ros, specifcally about class, class balance and builds?
You bring up the multiple builds argument from D2. Passing over the fact that each class in D2 only had a couple actual builds as well, the reason why they all worked more or less the same is difficulty. With just a couple good items hell mode was faceroll.
But now that we have torment and greater rifts, with each increase it becomes more and more crucial to eek out the absolute most dps possible, which distorts the perception of what builds are 'viable'. If you limited yourself, with good gear, to T1 or T2, you'd find almost every build you can come up with would work.
It's just an unfortunate side effect of increasing difficulty. It's also why you see the roller coaster you described in terms of buffing and nerfing.
So while I'm glad Blizzard continues to iterate and balance, it should be known that when pushed to the limits there will always be a best build, and when time matters that means the couple percent variant is instead a huge gap. And unless we make every skill the same, this will continue to happen until the end of time.
You can enjoy unique builds, I do every day. You just can't always do it in T6. So what? My sword & board grenades DH got a lot of use. You can do a lot of stuff until you start limiting yourself by talking about BiS and T6, just go have fun. Play a different build. Why are forums all so negative?
I've played monk since day one... i am close to 3200 hours on monk. played this game every damn day of my life for the past 2 years
I currently was ok with being the 'underdog' class in ROS and being a support party class... but now heh...
with these new changes.... looks like we're becoming an NPC
Raiment set just isnt good enough to make me want to play this game.
RIP monk
:'(
i might come back in a few seasons... but for now i'm done,
gg blizz
Considering that it's plenty clear that this PTR is far from over (seasons haven't even been implemented for testing yet, and they're the major feature), I think it's pretty early to declare a class dead.
As most rational people on Reddit pointed out, in the case of the monk, it's most likely that with the EP change they want to see how monks react, what skills they fall back on, etc. They most likely want to get a better grasp on exactly where the monk is without the old EP and then fix from there, rather than just guessing.
I mean we've already seen two iterations on channeled spells. Let's not get all Chicken Little here.
There's plenty of build diversity. Just because there is an accepted standard build or two for each class for pushing Torment 6, it doesn't mean that there isn't build diversity. Any game you play, whether it's D2 or PoE or TL2, Van Helsing, Titan Quest, Grim Yawn, etc it's going to have standard builds if more than a handful of people are paying attention to it. I play a Barbarian so I'm all about my leapquake at the moment. However I do enjoy experimentation and I have a second barb that I use for off the wall builds and odd gear set ups, and up until around T4 I'm able to play quite effectively with many of those set ups. If you're pushing the hardest content though, yes your options are limited. If you could complete the hardest content with just whatever build you wanted with relative ease, then the content would be a joke.
We definitely had standard builds in D2. You can go and google a list of builds for D2 and it may list 6-7 for each class, but only 1 or 2 of those were even really seen at the top end. That's just how it works. Blizzard can keep adding new things to make other builds more attractive, but all that is going to do is lead to those builds being the cookie cutter builds that everyone uses.
I played RoS pretty hardcore for the first month or so, took a break, and now I'm back to playing a couple hours every evening and I'm loving every minute of it. If you're looking for a game with very frequent content updates and additions and isn't repetitive ... Well ... it's not just a D3 RoS issue I'm afraid, all ARPGs are like that. By it's nature D2 and all of it's various clones are super repetitive.
Go play something else for awhile, D3 will still be around when you get back to it. I know that over the however many years I played D2 I took several breaks.
I can only speak for Crusader, but what kinda bugs me is that the best ways to play end games seems to contradict how the class is fundamentally setup at first blush.
For example, the build you level up with and might even use through T2 and beyond has a wrath generator and spender. Although wrath regens slowly, everything in terms of the spellbook is telling you to do several light attacks to gain the 'energy' to cast a few heavy attacks at opportune times. However, once you get certain gear, you can basically ignore wrath generators and spam wrath spenders. Is that the end game play style / rotation the developers were aiming for?
Akkarat's champion makes it worse. In WoW, akkarat's champion is a little thing called "Bloodlust". It's very useful, but the cool down is long enough to make it situational. Situational abilities are ok in WoW because you have all the hot bar space in the world. In D3, if a skill isn't really good, it's gone. If akkarat's champion was truly slowly enough to require situational planning, it would be gone in favor of something else. So not only is it available very often at end game, it's ~15 seconds of burst is huge given the speed of battle in D3. In WOW, you have Bloodlust for what, 30 seconds in a 5-man boss battle lasting 3~5 minutes? Whereas in D3, a 15 second burst will allow a geared character to take a huge chunk out of even a T6 uber boss.
The speed of D3 means burst damage is king. And it's entirely too easy to have all your burst skills up for every blue/gold pack. There's no strategy. It's just tactics.
If you want to play T6 and/or Greater Rifts a lot, you'll need to min/max and probably play only one or two builds per class.
If you want build diversity, back off the difficulty and have fun.
You can't really do both at once. The math just doesn't make that possible.
There's a lot of players who couldn't care less about T6, and are happy to just play at T1 or T2, and get access to all the torment-only legendaries. Only those who play everything as a competition really care about T6.
I'm pretty happy with the game at the moment. Just remember that by this point in its history, D2 still had TONS of class changes coming. In fact, I'm not sure synergies were even in yet, just a few months after LOD release. Seems like a lot of you (not all) played D2 long after the balance changes were over, and don't remember the mess the game was in the beginning.
If you want to play T6 and/or Greater Rifts a lot, you'll need to min/max and probably play only one or two builds per class.
If you want build diversity, back off the difficulty and have fun.
You can't really do both at once. The math just doesn't make that possible.
There's a lot of players who couldn't care less about T6, and are happy to just play at T1 or T2, and get access to all the torment-only legendaries. Only those who play everything as a competition really care about T6.
I'm pretty happy with the game at the moment. Just remember that by this point in its history, D2 still had TONS of class changes coming. In fact, I'm not sure synergies were even in yet, just a few months after LOD release. Seems like a lot of you (not all) played D2 long after the balance changes were over, and don't remember the mess the game was in the beginning.
In 2000, broadband was still a pretty novel thing. Dialup was in it's heyday. People played offline and routinely interacting with BBs for a game was relatively new. It wasn't until I got broadband at college that I played online or could effectively read up on community generated theorycrafting.
I played D2 a lot casually simply because I didn't have the ability to play any other way. That's probably why I have a giant blind spot for issues with D2 early on. They were there, but I just simply don't remember them.
There's plenty of build diversity. Just because there is an accepted standard build or two for each class for pushing Torment 6, it doesn't mean that there isn't build diversity.
The problem is, blizzard is pushing everyone in only one playstyle: kill everything ASAP. A slow killing juggernaut tank that's near unkillable build ? Sorry, the new rifts are a timer race.
There are other things to do. Yes, Greater Rifts are for speed builds. But that doesn't mean you can't play that tank in other parts of the game.
Seriously, I don't get the "I must play only the ONE TRUE WAY or the absolute most efficient way and forget everything else!" If those ways aren't fun for you, play another way.
Monks are having a lot of changes atm too, and i guess i am just frustrated that blizzard just doesn't get us, the players that play this game. I feel they just only see the game, and its balance, the numbers, and how it will play out, they dont care about individual builds, gameplay, playstyles, they make changes that just dont make a lot of sense, and if you argue about it, people say oh its a change for the greater good or think of the overall effect etc..i get that..i really do
This game is missing a core of what made d2 so good and played for so long, being able to make multiple builds, and if you geared them right and got the right items they could all do well in whatever you wanted to do, you were always trying to find that few key items that made the build shine, then you created another sorcerer and did it again, making a cold sorc, then making a melee sorc? both were awesome fun...in d3 atm neither one of those is anywhere near as good or effective as say fire or some arcane build, ie 2 builds, forget the rest. Would love to build a melee wizard again.
You can argue that yes it was kinda a pain/worthless to level up several of the same class just to change builds, and it was, our system in d3 today is better in most things in regards to that, but it lacks depth, it lacks the experimentation, the variety, its now all about efficiency/optimal for end game, its not how you get there, its about you are there already now what build do you use, pick 2 because that's all they really give you
Most classes only have a few "viable" builds for t6 and GR's, its the same old builds, sometimes they get a tweak here or there, or a set buff, or minor % upgrades...but essentially its always the same builds, its whatever does the most damage, because the game is so focused on health on mobs, they just keep scaling up...but us players have fallen behind...it will get better with leg gems, and hellfire amulet..new legs and affixes...but these are minor bandaids to the overall problem we have NOW, not in 3 months from now...its the CURRENT game i am frustrated about
The thread with ideas on alternatives to just scaling mobs health into the trillions was a great start, give us something to measure/strive for other than more damage, give us 3 or 4 builds even per class, some have more than 2, others dont...there's no balance at all in regards to potential of individual classes, they could fix this easily, and yet they dont, they rather everyone be the same build, and same gear...but why?
Also frustrated that they give us cool new stuff, then they pull it back, and say its not intended, ie depth diggers and wd/wizards recently, that change was amazing and great for my wd, i was aucutally changing builds and having fun again...for about a week...
maybe they will finally start shifting the game around to alternative challenges, and allowing more builds that aren't focused all on dps, and more on sustained damage and survivability, more class synergy in groups, buffs, something that is also lacking atm, monks are buff bots, people created Zdps build just for that purpose...just to have a different build that is useful in t6+
TLDR; what frustrates you atm in current ros, specifcally about class, class balance and builds?
But now that we have torment and greater rifts, with each increase it becomes more and more crucial to eek out the absolute most dps possible, which distorts the perception of what builds are 'viable'. If you limited yourself, with good gear, to T1 or T2, you'd find almost every build you can come up with would work.
It's just an unfortunate side effect of increasing difficulty. It's also why you see the roller coaster you described in terms of buffing and nerfing.
So while I'm glad Blizzard continues to iterate and balance, it should be known that when pushed to the limits there will always be a best build, and when time matters that means the couple percent variant is instead a huge gap. And unless we make every skill the same, this will continue to happen until the end of time.
Nowadays they look for things to whine about instead of enjoying the game.
There were also a lot of theory crafting in D2 as well and hence the cookie cutter builds.
I currently was ok with being the 'underdog' class in ROS and being a support party class... but now heh...
with these new changes.... looks like we're becoming an NPC
Raiment set just isnt good enough to make me want to play this game.
RIP monk
:'(
i might come back in a few seasons... but for now i'm done,
gg blizz
As most rational people on Reddit pointed out, in the case of the monk, it's most likely that with the EP change they want to see how monks react, what skills they fall back on, etc. They most likely want to get a better grasp on exactly where the monk is without the old EP and then fix from there, rather than just guessing.
I mean we've already seen two iterations on channeled spells. Let's not get all Chicken Little here.
We definitely had standard builds in D2. You can go and google a list of builds for D2 and it may list 6-7 for each class, but only 1 or 2 of those were even really seen at the top end. That's just how it works. Blizzard can keep adding new things to make other builds more attractive, but all that is going to do is lead to those builds being the cookie cutter builds that everyone uses.
I played RoS pretty hardcore for the first month or so, took a break, and now I'm back to playing a couple hours every evening and I'm loving every minute of it. If you're looking for a game with very frequent content updates and additions and isn't repetitive ... Well ... it's not just a D3 RoS issue I'm afraid, all ARPGs are like that. By it's nature D2 and all of it's various clones are super repetitive.
Go play something else for awhile, D3 will still be around when you get back to it. I know that over the however many years I played D2 I took several breaks.
For example, the build you level up with and might even use through T2 and beyond has a wrath generator and spender. Although wrath regens slowly, everything in terms of the spellbook is telling you to do several light attacks to gain the 'energy' to cast a few heavy attacks at opportune times. However, once you get certain gear, you can basically ignore wrath generators and spam wrath spenders. Is that the end game play style / rotation the developers were aiming for?
Akkarat's champion makes it worse. In WoW, akkarat's champion is a little thing called "Bloodlust". It's very useful, but the cool down is long enough to make it situational. Situational abilities are ok in WoW because you have all the hot bar space in the world. In D3, if a skill isn't really good, it's gone. If akkarat's champion was truly slowly enough to require situational planning, it would be gone in favor of something else. So not only is it available very often at end game, it's ~15 seconds of burst is huge given the speed of battle in D3. In WOW, you have Bloodlust for what, 30 seconds in a 5-man boss battle lasting 3~5 minutes? Whereas in D3, a 15 second burst will allow a geared character to take a huge chunk out of even a T6 uber boss.
The speed of D3 means burst damage is king. And it's entirely too easy to have all your burst skills up for every blue/gold pack. There's no strategy. It's just tactics.
If you want build diversity, back off the difficulty and have fun.
You can't really do both at once. The math just doesn't make that possible.
There's a lot of players who couldn't care less about T6, and are happy to just play at T1 or T2, and get access to all the torment-only legendaries. Only those who play everything as a competition really care about T6.
I'm pretty happy with the game at the moment. Just remember that by this point in its history, D2 still had TONS of class changes coming. In fact, I'm not sure synergies were even in yet, just a few months after LOD release. Seems like a lot of you (not all) played D2 long after the balance changes were over, and don't remember the mess the game was in the beginning.
I played D2 a lot casually simply because I didn't have the ability to play any other way. That's probably why I have a giant blind spot for issues with D2 early on. They were there, but I just simply don't remember them.
for the classes that are really going to be different I'm not playing them as much (monk)
for classes that will have set bonus changes I am farming for the sets right now (wizard)
other than that i'm just getting paragon points
Seriously, I don't get the "I must play only the ONE TRUE WAY or the absolute most efficient way and forget everything else!" If those ways aren't fun for you, play another way.