I think its an unneccessary change myself. Sure I'm still hunting my Golden Flense for my "Sweep Attack Generator" build; and I@ve been particularly after that one 2H Flail since day 1 of RoS and its not appeared yet; a clanie (if that ain't a word it is now :p) recieved one but thats the only one I've seen (only rolled with 3 Wrath per enemy hit so not really worth :p); and the system would at least let me know it was "En route" but hey, its "en route" anyway It will just take time.
Sure its depressing missing that one OP item to complete a build but just keep at it until your drive is exhausted. Your method would probably just result in the more dedicated players (read: 8+ hours a day) finishing gearing all 6 classes in BiS in a month. Which would probably annoy them more than they'd be pleased. We love your grinds *cough*
I think its an unneccessary change myself. Sure I'm still hunting my Golden Flense for my "Sweep Attack Generator" build; and I@ve been particularly after that one 2H Flail since day 1 of RoS and its not appeared yet; a clanie (if that ain't a word it is now :p) recieved one but thats the only one I've seen (only rolled with 3 Wrath per enemy hit so not really worth :p); and the system would at least let me know it was "En route" but hey, its "en route" anyway It will just take time.
Sure its depressing missing that one OP item to complete a build but just keep at it until your drive is exhausted. Your method would probably just result in the more dedicated players (read: 8+ hours a day) finishing gearing all 6 classes in BiS in a month. Which would probably annoy them more than they'd be pleased. We love your grinds *cough*
It doesn't do that though. It is meant for the most extreme cases of bad RNG. The number can be changed to whatever. Like I said in the post it is meant to prevent that one poor sucker from going 10,000 legendary hand-crossbows and never getting a single Calamity. The number can always be adjusted to where it feels good. I've been playing 12+ hrs a day since RoS and I don't think I've even seen 50+ legendary hand-crossbows. Your example of gearing every character in a month is extreme.
I think its an unneccessary change myself. Sure I'm still hunting my Golden Flense for my "Sweep Attack Generator" build; and I@ve been particularly after that one 2H Flail since day 1 of RoS and its not appeared yet; a clanie (if that ain't a word it is now :p) recieved one but thats the only one I've seen (only rolled with 3 Wrath per enemy hit so not really worth :p); and the system would at least let me know it was "En route" but hey, its "en route" anyway It will just take time.
Sure its depressing missing that one OP item to complete a build but just keep at it until your drive is exhausted. Your method would probably just result in the more dedicated players (read: 8+ hours a day) finishing gearing all 6 classes in BiS in a month. Which would probably annoy them more than they'd be pleased. We love your grinds *cough*
It doesn't do that though. It is meant for the most extreme cases of bad RNG. The number can be changed to whatever. Like I said in the post it is meant to prevent that one poor sucker from going 10,000 legendary hand-crossbows and never getting a single Calamity. The number can always be adjusted to where it feels good. I've been playing 12+ hrs a day since RoS and I don't think I've even seen 50+ legendary hand-crossbows. Your example of gearing every character in a month is extreme.
I know it sounds harsh, but a proper ARPG RnG system requires there to be "that guy" who doesn't get jack shit. The whole system crumbles if we make allowances for him. Where we're having trouble is that the core of this game was designed to have trading from player to player, and without that dynamic, "that guy" gets F'd in the A.
I think its an unneccessary change myself. Sure I'm still hunting my Golden Flense for my "Sweep Attack Generator" build; and I@ve been particularly after that one 2H Flail since day 1 of RoS and its not appeared yet; a clanie (if that ain't a word it is now :p) recieved one but thats the only one I've seen (only rolled with 3 Wrath per enemy hit so not really worth :p); and the system would at least let me know it was "En route" but hey, its "en route" anyway It will just take time.
Sure its depressing missing that one OP item to complete a build but just keep at it until your drive is exhausted. Your method would probably just result in the more dedicated players (read: 8+ hours a day) finishing gearing all 6 classes in BiS in a month. Which would probably annoy them more than they'd be pleased. We love your grinds *cough*
It doesn't do that though. It is meant for the most extreme cases of bad RNG. The number can be changed to whatever. Like I said in the post it is meant to prevent that one poor sucker from going 10,000 legendary hand-crossbows and never getting a single Calamity. The number can always be adjusted to where it feels good. I've been playing 12+ hrs a day since RoS and I don't think I've even seen 50+ legendary hand-crossbows. Your example of gearing every character in a month is extreme.
Precisely why this isn't needed. You've gone 50 HCrossbows without a Calamity. Napkin maths; there aren't enough diablo 3 players for there to be that "one guy who finds 10 thousand and not one calamity"
Ultimately your system is in place already Good luck finding your Calamity; it will happen, and before your thousandth Hcrossbow let alone 10 thousandth Hell I'd go out on a limb and say before your hundredth Puting a guarantee in place is unnecessary.
Its not a terrible idea; but too far one way and its not needed as its covered by RNG already (i.e. if you introduce a "your 1000th HCrossbow will be one you've not had before") or it will result in gearing way too fast (your 10th will be one you've not had before)
I think its an unneccessary change myself. Sure I'm still hunting my Golden Flense for my "Sweep Attack Generator" build; and I@ve been particularly after that one 2H Flail since day 1 of RoS and its not appeared yet; a clanie (if that ain't a word it is now :p) recieved one but thats the only one I've seen (only rolled with 3 Wrath per enemy hit so not really worth :p); and the system would at least let me know it was "En route" but hey, its "en route" anyway It will just take time.
Sure its depressing missing that one OP item to complete a build but just keep at it until your drive is exhausted. Your method would probably just result in the more dedicated players (read: 8+ hours a day) finishing gearing all 6 classes in BiS in a month. Which would probably annoy them more than they'd be pleased. We love your grinds *cough*
It doesn't do that though. It is meant for the most extreme cases of bad RNG. The number can be changed to whatever. Like I said in the post it is meant to prevent that one poor sucker from going 10,000 legendary hand-crossbows and never getting a single Calamity. The number can always be adjusted to where it feels good. I've been playing 12+ hrs a day since RoS and I don't think I've even seen 50+ legendary hand-crossbows. Your example of gearing every character in a month is extreme.
I know it sounds harsh, but a proper ARPG RnG system requires there to be "that guy" who doesn't get jack shit. The whole system crumbles if we make allowances for him. Where we're having trouble is that the core of this game was designed to have trading from player to player, and without that dynamic, "that guy" gets F'd in the A.
It doesn't break down though. This change would only break things if there were bots, and trading. They took trading out the game, and because of that bots are useless. I fail to see how it breaks down the game with the current state of things.
It doesn't break down though. This change would only break things if there were bots, and trading. They took trading out the game, and because of that bots are useless. I fail to see how it breaks down the game with the current state of things.
I'll explain why making allowances to prevent a fringe minority from getting screwed over on drops would ruin the loot system.
There's no way conceivable to do this without padding everyone's drops. Meaning, everyone will get guarantees. Guarantees betray the feeling of luck, such things rot at that special feeling you get rushed with when you finally hit pay-dirt.
In my experience, even under brutally thin margins as we saw in D2, if you stick to it, you will hit pay-dirt. The problem with BoA is that sometimes, this pay-dirt is in the form of an item you won't use. Be it because you don't play the class this item is for, or some other reason, when you find a powerful item that you won't use, you feel ripped off.
Trading allows this great item to not go wasted. It's a shame to have Haedrig smash good, tradable items solely due to the presence of BoA.
Point being; Guarantees rob the players of that special feeling. Cheapens it, as it were.
I think its an unneccessary change myself. Sure I'm still hunting my Golden Flense for my "Sweep Attack Generator" build; and I@ve been particularly after that one 2H Flail since day 1 of RoS and its not appeared yet; a clanie (if that ain't a word it is now :p) recieved one but thats the only one I've seen (only rolled with 3 Wrath per enemy hit so not really worth :p); and the system would at least let me know it was "En route" but hey, its "en route" anyway It will just take time.
Sure its depressing missing that one OP item to complete a build but just keep at it until your drive is exhausted. Your method would probably just result in the more dedicated players (read: 8+ hours a day) finishing gearing all 6 classes in BiS in a month. Which would probably annoy them more than they'd be pleased. We love your grinds *cough*
It doesn't do that though. It is meant for the most extreme cases of bad RNG. The number can be changed to whatever. Like I said in the post it is meant to prevent that one poor sucker from going 10,000 legendary hand-crossbows and never getting a single Calamity. The number can always be adjusted to where it feels good. I've been playing 12+ hrs a day since RoS and I don't think I've even seen 50+ legendary hand-crossbows. Your example of gearing every character in a month is extreme.
Precisely why this isn't needed. You've gone 50 HCrossbows without a Calamity. Napkin maths; there aren't enough diablo 3 players for there to be that "one guy who finds 10 thousand and not one calamity"
Ultimately your system is in place already Good luck finding your Calamity; it will happen, and before your thousandth Hcrossbow let alone 10 thousandth Hell I'd go out on a limb and say before your hundredth Puting a guarantee in place is unnecessary.
Its not a terrible idea; but too far one way and its not needed as its covered by RNG already (i.e. if you introduce a "your 1000th HCrossbow will be one you've not had before") or it will result in gearing way too fast (your 10th will be one you've not had before)
Some math here. The drop rate for calamity is 1.64%. Let's say we are trying to find out how many crossbows we have to roll to have a 95% chance of getting it.
ln(100% - 95%) / ln(100% - 1.64%) = 181
That means 1 in 20 people will not find a calamity even with 181 legendary crossbows. 1 in 100 people won't find it in 278 crossbows. 1 in 1000 won't find it in 418, etc.
181 crossbows is far too long to not find a single calamity, and 1 in 20 is far too common an occurrence. 181 may not sound like a lot of legendaries, it isn't really. But this is 1 subset of 1 slot. There are 153 DH legendaries across 12 slots, 3 different weapon types and 2 different armor types. Getting 181 of the same subset of 1 slot is insanity.
The current system does not make sense in a game where there is no trading.
I think part of the problem is that for any given class, there's actually only a small number of items which aren't basically trash. There are too many orange rares and underwhelming set bonuses in the legendary roster, which means that the odds of a legendary actually being one you want is smaller than it should be.
At the moment, there's a tension between having no guarantees about what you'll get next (which is good), and having no guarantees about what you'll get ever, which can be demoralizing when the game isn't capable of throwing surprises at you to make up for it (and that last bit is really the key to getting people to put up with low-odds gambling).
Perhaps Blizzard should either do another pass and beef up the 'B-list legendaries', or add a grindy way to re-roll either more than one stat, or the entire item, when the game drops the right legendary with completely the wrong stats. Maybe as simple as if you've got two crappy versions of the same legendary, you can use one to completely re-roll the other?
I think this idea have somewhat of a point. It's like an extension of the bad RNG protection system that already exists with normal legendaries. Of course, 50+ bows is nothing when the drop rate is 1.64%, since that's less than the expected number of bows you need to find. For an item that rare, a drop protection would need to have a cap of 300+ for it to not completely screw over the rate.
Alternatively, they could simply rescale the weight to make the rare items not so rare.
From now on we have a very short and concise blue response to that. It is: this is never gonna happen.
such is the nature of Diablo games—by playing the game you have a chance at acquiring the loot you are looking for, but it will never be possible to guarantee that you will get it.
From now on we have a very short and concise blue response to that. It is: this is never gonna happen.
such is the nature of Diablo games—by playing the game you have a chance at acquiring the loot you are looking for, but it will never be possible to guarantee that you will get it.
Sure, but given that, how do you make loot-farming in D3 a positive experience for everyone? Maybe that's a zen question. There is definitely a selection bias issue... people who are getting what they want by the time they expect it aren't really posting. But there's no doubt that even once you've removed the people who don't get how RNG works or how important efficiency is, or are just plain old angry internet haters, there's enough sane, rational people having a bad time to warrant some kind of action. Bear in mind that the 'shafted by the RNG' issue is going to feel even worse in ladder seasons, where there's a very finite time-span, and "it'll all even out over time" no longer applies.
Note: Increasing the drop-rate is clearly and absolutely not the right thing to do. So there's that.
From now on we have a very short and concise blue response to that. It is: this is never gonna happen.
such is the nature of Diablo games—by playing the game you have a chance at acquiring the loot you are looking for, but it will never be possible to guarantee that you will get it.
Sure, but given that, how do you make loot-farming in D3 a positive experience for everyone?
The answer to your question; We don't.
Trying to give D3 mass, broad appeal is like building a street legal NASCAR. It's looks neat, but it's not doing what a NASCAR does.
The time has come for them to appease the core fans. They can't please everybody, so it's either try to make everyone happy and fail, or try to make one camp utterly freakin' happy and forsake the rest.
This isn't aimed at any particular person, but if "you" want guarantees in Diablo loot drops, you need to piss off.
From now on we have a very short and concise blue response to that. It is: this is never gonna happen.
such is the nature of Diablo games—by playing the game you have a chance at acquiring the loot you are looking for, but it will never be possible to guarantee that you will get it.
Because they haven't ever considered a different system. Just because that is the way it currently is does not mean it could never happen. The only reason the current system worked in the past was because you could trade for items that you need. Trading is gone. The current system does not make sense.
From now on we have a very short and concise blue response to that. It is: this is never gonna happen.
such is the nature of Diablo games—by playing the game you have a chance at acquiring the loot you are looking for, but it will never be possible to guarantee that you will get it.
Because they haven't ever considered a different system. Just because that is the way it currently is does not mean it could never happen. The only reason the current system worked in the past was because you could trade for items that you need. Trading is gone. The current system does not make sense.
That system was in place in D3V and was called the auction house. And it was the worst thing the entire Diablo universe had ever seen in terms of gaming experience. Look, I'm a total victim of RNG with bad luck, ask my friends. But I take the current system a hundred times over the insane AH system.
From now on we have a very short and concise blue response to that. It is: this is never gonna happen.
such is the nature of Diablo games—by playing the game you have a chance at acquiring the loot you are looking for, but it will never be possible to guarantee that you will get it.
Because they haven't ever considered a different system. Just because that is the way it currently is does not mean it could never happen. The only reason the current system worked in the past was because you could trade for items that you need. Trading is gone. The current system does not make sense.
That system was in place in D3V and was called the auction house. And it was the worst thing the entire Diablo universe had ever seen in terms of gaming experience. Look, I'm a total victim of RNG with bad luck, ask my friends. But I take the current system a hundred times over the insane AH system.
You can't just take something out of the game, in this case trading, and expect everything to work fine. In my opinio the current loot system works well with trading, but if trading no longer exists than the loot system needs to be changed to compensate. This is my opinion.
From now on we have a very short and concise blue response to that. It is: this is never gonna happen.
such is the nature of Diablo games—by playing the game you have a chance at acquiring the loot you are looking for, but it will never be possible to guarantee that you will get it.
Because they haven't ever considered a different system. Just because that is the way it currently is does not mean it could never happen. The only reason the current system worked in the past was because you could trade for items that you need. Trading is gone. The current system does not make sense.
That system was in place in D3V and was called the auction house. And it was the worst thing the entire Diablo universe had ever seen in terms of gaming experience. Look, I'm a total victim of RNG with bad luck, ask my friends. But I take the current system a hundred times over the insane AH system.
100% agree. BoA is better than the AH's by far.
Then again, being raped is better than being murdered. The lesser of two evils is not a positive experience for anyone.
Approaching this issue like it was a light switch was in err. One extreme end of the spectrum was the AH's. The other is BoA. A more intuitive, limited trading system lies in the middle.
It's not about broadening appeal... that's a fast-track to mediocrity. It's about mitigating the fact that certain players, simply because of RNG, won't see any good loot for days, a subset of which won't see anything for weeks, and so on. Through no fault of their own, their experience of the game isn't as positive as others.
Blizzard already has some mitigating factors... bounties give access to higher drop rates via rifts, targeted farming in the form of act-specific legendaries from caches, and slot-specific ones from Kadala. I wonder if the issue is just down to the gap between 'best' and 'good'.
From now on we have a very short and concise blue response to that. It is: this is never gonna happen.
such is the nature of Diablo games—by playing the game you have a chance at acquiring the loot you are looking for, but it will never be possible to guarantee that you will get it.
Because they haven't ever considered a different system. Just because that is the way it currently is does not mean it could never happen. The only reason the current system worked in the past was because you could trade for items that you need. Trading is gone. The current system does not make sense.
That system was in place in D3V and was called the auction house. And it was the worst thing the entire Diablo universe had ever seen in terms of gaming experience. Look, I'm a total victim of RNG with bad luck, ask my friends. But I take the current system a hundred times over the insane AH system.
100% agree. BoA is better than the AH's by far.
Then again, being raped is better than being murdered. The lesser of two evils is not a positive experience for anyone.
Approaching this issue like it was a light switch was in err. One extreme end of the spectrum was the AH's. The other is BoA. A more intuitive, limited trading system lies in the middle.
I'm not arguing about BoA or trading here. I am saying with all items being BoA a new drop system needs to be put into place. Before, with trading, you could still get any item despite bad RNG, through trading. I'm not arguing that they should bring that back, but with the current system there is nothing in place to allow a player to get an item given bad RNG. That is a failure in the game design. This is a solution to address that problem. I'm not really sure what you are arguing. Can you give me a reason for why this loot system would not work with the current state of Diablo?
Trying to give D3 mass, broad appeal is like building a street legal NASCAR. It's looks neat, but it's not doing what a NASCAR does.
The time has come for them to appease the core fans. They can't please everybody, so it's either try to make everyone happy and fail, or try to make one camp utterly freakin' happy and forsake the rest.
This isn't aimed at any particular person, but if "you" want guarantees in Diablo loot drops, you need to piss off.
That will never happen. Ultimately, if Blizzard must choose between core fans and casuals, they WILL choose casuals. Anything else is bad business. This is D3 we are talking about after all, not a niche game. Luckily, they don't have to make that choice, for the most part. Besides, like I said before, Blizzard already have numerous bad RNG guards in place. The issue is on whether to extend these guards further.
The original post is here:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/12674628880
Thanks guys.
Sure its depressing missing that one OP item to complete a build but just keep at it until your drive is exhausted. Your method would probably just result in the more dedicated players (read: 8+ hours a day) finishing gearing all 6 classes in BiS in a month. Which would probably annoy them more than they'd be pleased. We love your grinds *cough*
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Ultimately your system is in place already Good luck finding your Calamity; it will happen, and before your thousandth Hcrossbow let alone 10 thousandth Hell I'd go out on a limb and say before your hundredth Puting a guarantee in place is unnecessary.
Its not a terrible idea; but too far one way and its not needed as its covered by RNG already (i.e. if you introduce a "your 1000th HCrossbow will be one you've not had before") or it will result in gearing way too fast (your 10th will be one you've not had before)
There's no way conceivable to do this without padding everyone's drops. Meaning, everyone will get guarantees. Guarantees betray the feeling of luck, such things rot at that special feeling you get rushed with when you finally hit pay-dirt.
In my experience, even under brutally thin margins as we saw in D2, if you stick to it, you will hit pay-dirt. The problem with BoA is that sometimes, this pay-dirt is in the form of an item you won't use. Be it because you don't play the class this item is for, or some other reason, when you find a powerful item that you won't use, you feel ripped off.
Trading allows this great item to not go wasted. It's a shame to have Haedrig smash good, tradable items solely due to the presence of BoA.
Point being; Guarantees rob the players of that special feeling. Cheapens it, as it were.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
ln(100% - 95%) / ln(100% - 1.64%) = 181
That means 1 in 20 people will not find a calamity even with 181 legendary crossbows. 1 in 100 people won't find it in 278 crossbows. 1 in 1000 won't find it in 418, etc.
181 crossbows is far too long to not find a single calamity, and 1 in 20 is far too common an occurrence. 181 may not sound like a lot of legendaries, it isn't really. But this is 1 subset of 1 slot. There are 153 DH legendaries across 12 slots, 3 different weapon types and 2 different armor types. Getting 181 of the same subset of 1 slot is insanity.
The current system does not make sense in a game where there is no trading.
At the moment, there's a tension between having no guarantees about what you'll get next (which is good), and having no guarantees about what you'll get ever, which can be demoralizing when the game isn't capable of throwing surprises at you to make up for it (and that last bit is really the key to getting people to put up with low-odds gambling).
Perhaps Blizzard should either do another pass and beef up the 'B-list legendaries', or add a grindy way to re-roll either more than one stat, or the entire item, when the game drops the right legendary with completely the wrong stats. Maybe as simple as if you've got two crappy versions of the same legendary, you can use one to completely re-roll the other?
I think this idea have somewhat of a point. It's like an extension of the bad RNG protection system that already exists with normal legendaries. Of course, 50+ bows is nothing when the drop rate is 1.64%, since that's less than the expected number of bows you need to find. For an item that rare, a drop protection would need to have a cap of 300+ for it to not completely screw over the rate.
Alternatively, they could simply rescale the weight to make the rare items not so rare.
From now on we have a very short and concise blue response to that. It is: this is never gonna happen.
such is the nature of Diablo games—by playing the game you have a chance at acquiring the loot you are looking for, but it will never be possible to guarantee that you will get it.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10495112124#16
Note: Increasing the drop-rate is clearly and absolutely not the right thing to do. So there's that.
Trying to give D3 mass, broad appeal is like building a street legal NASCAR. It's looks neat, but it's not doing what a NASCAR does.
The time has come for them to appease the core fans. They can't please everybody, so it's either try to make everyone happy and fail, or try to make one camp utterly freakin' happy and forsake the rest.
This isn't aimed at any particular person, but if "you" want guarantees in Diablo loot drops, you need to piss off.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
That system was in place in D3V and was called the auction house. And it was the worst thing the entire Diablo universe had ever seen in terms of gaming experience. Look, I'm a total victim of RNG with bad luck, ask my friends. But I take the current system a hundred times over the insane AH system.
Then again, being raped is better than being murdered. The lesser of two evils is not a positive experience for anyone.
Approaching this issue like it was a light switch was in err. One extreme end of the spectrum was the AH's. The other is BoA. A more intuitive, limited trading system lies in the middle.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Blizzard already has some mitigating factors... bounties give access to higher drop rates via rifts, targeted farming in the form of act-specific legendaries from caches, and slot-specific ones from Kadala. I wonder if the issue is just down to the gap between 'best' and 'good'.
That will never happen. Ultimately, if Blizzard must choose between core fans and casuals, they WILL choose casuals. Anything else is bad business. This is D3 we are talking about after all, not a niche game. Luckily, they don't have to make that choice, for the most part. Besides, like I said before, Blizzard already have numerous bad RNG guards in place. The issue is on whether to extend these guards further.