One thing that was always unclear to me are the advantages and disadvantages of the Dual Wielding as opposed to the 2-Handed Weapon, regardless of the class that it is used on.
I will list some information i think is correct, and you (fellow demon slayers) please correct me and add anything you think is helpful:
Dual wielding two weapons gives you much better use of gems, due to having more gem slots and being able to get multiple "gem in weapon" bonuses (like Life on Hit purple gem in weapon).
Dual wielding is much better for stats like Life on Hit, since two fast weapons hit a lot more often/faster than a slow 2-Handed Weapon - and stats like Life on Hit only care about attack speed (not weapon damage).
Dual wielding tends to build up resources much faster when using your "resource building attacks", since the resource gained scales only from attack speed while completely ignoring Weapon damage.
Dual wielding weapons need to be close to each other in terms of DPS - if we have 1 super good weapon and 1 poor weapon, it might be better to use that super good weapon and a shield (or other non-weapon offhand).
When dual wielding, our abilities (like Cleave or Impale or Cyclone Strike) will use a different hand on each use - starting with main hand on first use, then off hand on 2nd use and so on.
When dual wielding, our abilities will hit for less damage per cast (when compared to a big 2-handed weapon) - but we are able to cast them more quickly one after the other (assuming no cooldown).
2-Handed Weapons are better when using spells that have a cooldown, since those spells only scale from Weapon damage and they completely ignore your attack speed.
2-Handed Weapons are betters for pets and summoned creatures, since those scale only from Weapon damage and they completely ignore your attack speed.
2-Handed Weapons hit for a lot more damage per each ability used (due to higher Weapon damage), which leads to a much more efficient "damage per resource spent".
2-Handed Weapons are much better for Damage Over Time effects (like Rend or Locust Swarm), since those spells only scale from Weapon damage while they completely ignore attack speed.
If you find that any of my above statements are incorrect, or you have something to contribute that is not on the list, please do reply
Thank you for reading and helping out!
The only thing that annoys me in regards why one-handed weapons are usally better is the thing with gem socket, ist okay if you are using an off-hand item with one, but two gems with critical damage are far superior once you get a little critchance.
That the reason why 2-socket manticore was so good back then(haven't seen it really at 70 now).
When dual wielding, our abilities (like Cleave or Impale or Cyclone Strike) will use a different hand on each use - starting with main hand on first use, then off hand on 2nd use and so on.
AFAIK not 100% true. Some of abilities like Spirit Generators will alternate hands, but others like Cyclone or Kick will do main-hand damage always.
I did not know this.
Wish that all that crucial information was written on the tooltip of every ability, since it is pretty damn important what weapon it uses...
@DadouXIII, as far as I am concerned they are still bugged, I haven't seen a 2H yet above 2800DPS personally, it cannot compete with 2200DPS 1H Legendaries that can have 260% crit damage :-\
During Beta I saw the 2H-rs having in excess of 4000DPS, that would actually mean something...
Those weapons are from an early F&F Alpha build where weapons were rolling an insane amount of damage, both 1h and 2h, which is no longer the case. So no, they are not bugged.
The problem is in the weapon socket which is completly imbalanced and if you can have two while dual wielding, well, the imbalance is even more noticable.
There's a monk set with a 2-item set-bonus that increases all damage by 20% if combat staff is equipped. Makes 2h builds for monks somewhat viable. Crusaders are also using two-handers, and demon-hunters do (though it's ranged weapons). I think this is what Blizz mean when they say that two-handers are in a good place right now: there is a certain niche for them. If you add extra sockets and some other bonuses, I fear only more issues will arise, such as classess already preferring 2H-weapons becoming OP and players that like 2x1H builds complayning that those builds are inefficient and that they are forced to use 2H-weapons. My guess is no major changes are coming. Maybe some minor tuning like tweaking stat ranges.
As a crusader I can say with some certainty that if 2h were much stronger it would feel broken. My wizard friend and I have both done dps benchmarks against ghom in reasonably similar gear. I only came out about 500k dps behind him. We have very close sheet dps, I am at 840 he is at 870. What you really need to watch and balance is the fact that his sheet toughness is 5 million where mine is 14. I think the dps is right around where it should be.
As a crusader I can say with some certainty that if 2h were much stronger it would feel broken.
Not having played a Crusader at max level, I was wondering what your thoughts were on how much of a sacrifice it is to dedicate one passive slot to the ability to main-hand a two-handed weapon?
e.g. if you had an almost-as-good one-handed weapon, how much benefit would you get from taking a "fourth best" passive to replace Heavenly Strength?
As a crusader I can say with some certainty that if 2h were much stronger it would feel broken.
Not having played a Crusader at max level, I was wondering what your thoughts were on how much of a sacrifice it is to dedicate one passive slot to the ability to main-hand a two-handed weapon?
e.g. if you had an almost-as-good one-handed weapon, how much benefit would you get from taking a "fourth best" passive to replace Heavenly Strength?I
if we are talking yellow weapons, 2h is hands down worth the passive. Legs on the other hand, there some interesting 1h build changers. It all depends on what you find and how you make it work.
I don't think two-handers are in a bad place, nor do I think they are 'bugged.'
The argument usually isn't 2h versus 1h, it's 2h vs dual wield. Since crusaders cannot dual wield, they're usually much better off damage-wise by using Heavenly Strength for a 2h plus shield.
Bows and crossbows actually aren't two-handed technically (I'm pretty sure, anyway). They roll like 1-handers in my experience. This is probably because the class designed around using bows also has an offhand to go with them.
A two-hander really doesn't need double the DPS of a one-hander to compete with dual wield. I'd say that in the worst case, It really only needs about 40% more to achieve the same DPS. This is because dual wield only increases your damage by (at most) 15%, and an extra socket should only add (roughly) at most an extra 20% damage in most cases.
I've seen 2900 dps two-handers, so this seems appropriate to me.
Even if the sheet DPS of a two-hander is a bit lower than dual wield, they will have higher actual DPS if you're utilizing a two-hander well (i.e.: you're using DoTs or cooldown damage abilities).
Also keep in mind:
The more IAS and critical damage you have on your gear, the better 2-handing becomes in comparison to dual wield. This is because the dual wield IAS is just added to your gear IAS, and thus it becomes less and less important relatively as you get more IAS. Likewise with crit damage, the more you have from other gear, the less important an extra 130% becomes.
However, if you have a high critical chance and low critical damage, adding that extra socket may help a lot.
To restate this point that cularic is making and I dont think enough players grasp yet. Sheet damage does not give a true representation of actual dps. What weapon you use relies heavily on your build. You can indeed test this with many abilities. As a crusader for example, get 2 evenly matched yellow weapons. A say mid dps 2200 1h and a low dps 2200 2h. Cast a Falling Sword with each of them a few times. The dps gain on the 2h should be noticable but perhaps not significant. Now imagine (or test if you have it available) a great dps 2400 1h vs a great dps 2900 2h. The dps of those high cd abilities does become significant. Note so does a stat which very few people are putting effort into stacking, cooldown reduction. A little bit goes a very long way.
My Falling Sword currently crits for 25 million. On a 20 second cd that equates to 1.25 million dps. Bu5 I have gotten my self to right around 25% cdr making it a 15 second cd and increasing its effective dps to 1.66 million. 25% cdr effectively increased my dps of 1 of my abilities by 400k and my character by quite a bit more. Cdr is a huge stat to consider when using 2 handers.
Another thing to watch out for when making a 2h cd build ... attack speed is a deceptively useless stat. Reforge out of it.
Another thing to watch out for when making a 2h cd build ... attack speed is a deceptively useless stat. Reforge out of it.
Just to clarify.. you mean when you're making a build which relies on cooldowns (as opposed to "hitting monster in face with primary attack") for most of its damage?
I will list some information i think is correct, and you (fellow demon slayers) please correct me and add anything you think is helpful:
Dual wielding two weapons gives you much better use of gems, due to having more gem slots and being able to get multiple "gem in weapon" bonuses (like Life on Hit purple gem in weapon).
Dual wielding is much better for stats like Life on Hit, since two fast weapons hit a lot more often/faster than a slow 2-Handed Weapon - and stats like Life on Hit only care about attack speed (not weapon damage).
Dual wielding tends to build up resources much faster when using your "resource building attacks", since the resource gained scales only from attack speed while completely ignoring Weapon damage.
Dual wielding weapons need to be close to each other in terms of DPS - if we have 1 super good weapon and 1 poor weapon, it might be better to use that super good weapon and a shield (or other non-weapon offhand).
When dual wielding, our abilities (like Cleave or Impale or Cyclone Strike) will use a different hand on each use - starting with main hand on first use, then off hand on 2nd use and so on.
When dual wielding, our abilities will hit for less damage per cast (when compared to a big 2-handed weapon) - but we are able to cast them more quickly one after the other (assuming no cooldown).
2-Handed Weapons are better when using spells that have a cooldown, since those spells only scale from Weapon damage and they completely ignore your attack speed.
2-Handed Weapons are betters for pets and summoned creatures, since those scale only from Weapon damage and they completely ignore your attack speed.
2-Handed Weapons hit for a lot more damage per each ability used (due to higher Weapon damage), which leads to a much more efficient "damage per resource spent".
2-Handed Weapons are much better for Damage Over Time effects (like Rend or Locust Swarm), since those spells only scale from Weapon damage while they completely ignore attack speed.
If you find that any of my above statements are incorrect, or you have something to contribute that is not on the list, please do reply
Thank you for reading and helping out!
The only thing that annoys me in regards why one-handed weapons are usally better is the thing with gem socket, ist okay if you are using an off-hand item with one, but two gems with critical damage are far superior once you get a little critchance.
That the reason why 2-socket manticore was so good back then(haven't seen it really at 70 now).
Wish that all that crucial information was written on the tooltip of every ability, since it is pretty damn important what weapon it uses...
The problem is in the weapon socket which is completly imbalanced and if you can have two while dual wielding, well, the imbalance is even more noticable.
Lets not forget about legendary effects - with 2x 1h it's chance for 2 great with 2h it's always only 1.
e.g. if you had an almost-as-good one-handed weapon, how much benefit would you get from taking a "fourth best" passive to replace Heavenly Strength?
The argument usually isn't 2h versus 1h, it's 2h vs dual wield. Since crusaders cannot dual wield, they're usually much better off damage-wise by using Heavenly Strength for a 2h plus shield.
Bows and crossbows actually aren't two-handed technically (I'm pretty sure, anyway). They roll like 1-handers in my experience. This is probably because the class designed around using bows also has an offhand to go with them.
A two-hander really doesn't need double the DPS of a one-hander to compete with dual wield. I'd say that in the worst case, It really only needs about 40% more to achieve the same DPS. This is because dual wield only increases your damage by (at most) 15%, and an extra socket should only add (roughly) at most an extra 20% damage in most cases.
I've seen 2900 dps two-handers, so this seems appropriate to me.
Even if the sheet DPS of a two-hander is a bit lower than dual wield, they will have higher actual DPS if you're utilizing a two-hander well (i.e.: you're using DoTs or cooldown damage abilities).
Also keep in mind:
The more IAS and critical damage you have on your gear, the better 2-handing becomes in comparison to dual wield. This is because the dual wield IAS is just added to your gear IAS, and thus it becomes less and less important relatively as you get more IAS. Likewise with crit damage, the more you have from other gear, the less important an extra 130% becomes.
However, if you have a high critical chance and low critical damage, adding that extra socket may help a lot.
My Falling Sword currently crits for 25 million. On a 20 second cd that equates to 1.25 million dps. Bu5 I have gotten my self to right around 25% cdr making it a 15 second cd and increasing its effective dps to 1.66 million. 25% cdr effectively increased my dps of 1 of my abilities by 400k and my character by quite a bit more. Cdr is a huge stat to consider when using 2 handers.
Another thing to watch out for when making a 2h cd build ... attack speed is a deceptively useless stat. Reforge out of it.