It really is time for Blizzard to stop being lazy.

  • #62
    Quote from Xenocow
    Quote from Jayonnaise »Why should act 1 give the most exp?

    Why reduce the Mob Density along the Game in 2.01?
    We had plenty of sweet Spots to farm pre 2.01, and they nerfed it back the way we got rid of not to long ago.

    They made an explanation for that and it was reasonable. They did it because the 1.0.8 density was making AoE skills too strong, which hurts build diversity.
  • #63
    Quote from red666
    Quote from Helycon
    Quote from red666
    Quote from Helycon

    The problem comes from the so-called hardcore players showing everyone where you can get that little more extra XP/h. Everyone and their mums will start doing them, even if it's hardly compelling gameplay. If it gives you an edge, people will do it. If these hardcore players wouldn't TELL people these sort of things, people would just find their own route that would satisfy them most.

    Is it a flaw of Blizzard in being unable to balance everything completely, or the playerbase with a very big urge to always follow the "hardcore" players. I sincerely believe it to be the latter. People are too much focussed on power that they get blinded by the fact they're not actually having fun. Yes, I have tried some things in certain games that turned out to be anything but fun. I've stopped doing those things for the very simple reason it was starting to either upset me (which is bad, to a degree) or bore me (which is, to me, even worse in something that is supposed to be entertainment).

    This is the very reason I'm looking forward to adventure mode. To me, it offers the perks of being able to just quickly accomplish something in the game. It's always new, whilst being the most rewarding in the game. Odd combinations of mobs. Mallet lords between your dune-trashers? Sand wasps and phase-beasts? Enjoy!

    They're trying to save people from becoming bored of a game that has yet to be released. The power players fail to see this yet I think. I'd like to keep playing D3 a damn sight longer than the coming week and then just be bored out of my skull of seeing skeletons or demonic vessels.

    Why is wanting to progress in the most efficient way possible such an evil concept? Also how have you determined what amount of fun anyone but yourself is having? Again, I don't really care about the nerfs, i personally just reset all quests on my wiz today to change of pace a little bit, but I have always been fascinated by the amount that people care how others play a game that has little to no effect on their actual gameplay. There is no competition in this game it is individual achievement, why does someone else effect you so much.

    It is not an evil concept. The issue arises when it's just once yhing over-and-over again. Then it becomes an evil concept. I've never said that I know for a fact that everyone else relishes in doing these runs but me. I'm quite sure that there are, however, people that do not enjoy doing them, but do them plain simply becuase it's the most efficient way. It might also be the mosst efficient way for them to get burned out on the game. Blizzard knows very well how many people do these runs. They can see if a large portion of the playerbase does little else, they should step in. Blizzard also knows from experience (read: WoW) that people will take the path of least resistance. How many people complained that dailies were boring? Yet, since it was the easiest way of obtaining powerful items and currency, people did them en-masse. Same applies here. People might not necessarily ENJOY doing them, but they crave power. The only way for Blizzard to step in is to guide the player away. How do people get burned out? By not listening to their own brains and bodies when something they do is repetitive or straining. Anyone but you can tell you this, otherwise, you would never get burned out.

    I sincerely do not care how other people play the game, but I do believe that for the longevity of the game, Blizzard did the right thing, steering people from repetitive actions.

    By this argument, Blizzard should have left the cota unnerfed, so that all the players that are playing the game "improperly" could get burnt out and no longer play the game and therefore eliminate on the ways they ruin the game for other people. Thus saving server strain that these players cause, with no rmah and no sub blizz wouldn't be missing out on anything!

    Yeah, because having less players in a game, even witout any subs, really puts the devs in teh mood to improve something!
  • #64
    Quote from Advanced
    Quote from red666 »
    Quote from Helycon
    Quote from red666
    Quote from Helycon The problem comes from the so-called hardcore players showing everyone where you can get that little more extra XP/h. Everyone and their mums will start doing them, even if it's hardly compelling gameplay. If it gives you an edge, people will do it. If these hardcore players wouldn't TELL people these sort of things, people would just find their own route that would satisfy them most.

    Is it a flaw of Blizzard in being unable to balance everything completely, or the playerbase with a very big urge to always follow the "hardcore" players. I sincerely believe it to be the latter. People are too much focussed on power that they get blinded by the fact they're not actually having fun. Yes, I have tried some things in certain games that turned out to be anything but fun. I've stopped doing those things for the very simple reason it was starting to either upset me (which is bad, to a degree) or bore me (which is, to me, even worse in something that is supposed to be entertainment).

    This is the very reason I'm looking forward to adventure mode. To me, it offers the perks of being able to just quickly accomplish something in the game. It's always new, whilst being the most rewarding in the game. Odd combinations of mobs. Mallet lords between your dune-trashers? Sand wasps and phase-beasts? Enjoy!

    They're trying to save people from becoming bored of a game that has yet to be released. The power players fail to see this yet I think. I'd like to keep playing D3 a damn sight longer than the coming week and then just be bored out of my skull of seeing skeletons or demonic vessels.

    Why is wanting to progress in the most efficient way possible such an evil concept? Also how have you determined what amount of fun anyone but yourself is having? Again, I don't really care about the nerfs, i personally just reset all quests on my wiz today to change of pace a little bit, but I have always been fascinated by the amount that people care how others play a game that has little to no effect on their actual gameplay. There is no competition in this game it is individual achievement, why does someone else effect you so much.

    It is not an evil concept. The issue arises when it's just once yhing over-and-over again. Then it becomes an evil concept. I've never said that I know for a fact that everyone else relishes in doing these runs but me. I'm quite sure that there are, however, people that do not enjoy doing them, but do them plain simply becuase it's the most efficient way. It might also be the mosst efficient way for them to get burned out on the game. Blizzard knows very well how many people do these runs. They can see if a large portion of the playerbase does little else, they should step in. Blizzard also knows from experience (read: WoW) that people will take the path of least resistance. How many people complained that dailies were boring? Yet, since it was the easiest way of obtaining powerful items and currency, people did them en-masse. Same applies here. People might not necessarily ENJOY doing them, but they crave power. The only way for Blizzard to step in is to guide the player away. How do people get burned out? By not listening to their own brains and bodies when something they do is repetitive or straining. Anyone but you can tell you this, otherwise, you would never get burned out.

    I sincerely do not care how other people play the game, but I do believe that for the longevity of the game, Blizzard did the right thing, steering people from repetitive actions.

    By this argument, Blizzard should have left the cota unnerfed, so that all the players that are playing the game "improperly" could get burnt out and no longer play the game and therefore eliminate on the ways they ruin the game for other people. Thus saving server strain that these players cause, with no rmah and no sub blizz wouldn't be missing out on anything!

    Quote from Jayonnaise » They nerfed all the low hp mobs simply because the amount of exp divided by the time it takes to kill them was too high, it's not really rocket science. Everyone got the same nerf so i don't know how anyone can see this as somehow unfair. "Buffing everything else" is a stupid argument, it's much easier to fix one problem by (in this case) nerfing the exp gain, rather than bringing everything up to par with it.

    No one would do CotA cause other places would give more exp so the end result would be the same, the only difference between buffing everything else or nerfing one really tiny instance is that the paragon levels and the curve you're supposed to get them stays the same. Also "buffing everything" would have brought more quest reward problems and could have done many problems that can't really be predicted, when nerfing one mob type has a very predictable result.

    Dude you guys don't get it right? They did not nerf Cota they nerfed the complete game.

    As example
    pre nerf you would get 1 billion exp in Cath 4
    pre nerf you would get 2 billion exp in COTA
    Now you get 500 million exp in Cath 4
    Now you get 1 billion exp in COTA

    I don't give a shit about Cota I don't do any Cota runs but this affects everyone whole act 1 and probably more.

    I understan just fine that now, swarm mobs in all areas of the game give less experience. In fact, I believe I stated earlier that I agreed with this fact, since otherwise, people would do the exact same in a different area with swarm mobs.

    I really am not fussed about receiving less experience at all. I'll still get experience, by playing the game I enjoy playing, and actually think I would achieve a higher paragon level in the end over a longer period of time than just farming something quickly over-and-over again, burning out in a short amount of time.

    Shaggy is pretty much hitting the nail on the head when it comes to WHY this was nerfed and nothing else buffed. This was fixing the root cause, not something symptomatic.
  • #65
    http://youtu.be/LynSaB5C470
  • #66
    I think the message is clear, some just aren't getting it yet.

    Diablo 3 wants you to earn your bonuses/loot through dynamic gameplay, not Baal Runs 2.02
  • #67
    Quote from ruksak

    I think the message is clear, some just aren't getting it yet.

    Diablo 3 wants you to earn your bonuses/loot through dynamic gameplay, not Baal Runs 2.02

    I don't think anyone is debating that. It's a matter of how I want to play v how the devs want me to play. It's just a matter of philosophy, not right or wrong. You have two ends of the spectrum; Blizz, which more often than not will change the game to prevent players from playing in a way that doesn't jive with their intentions and, say, something like Eve.

    Now, I know it's a silly comparison, but I'm not comparing the two games, just the design philosophies. Eve is a giant sandbox where the players determine how the game is played. DIII wants to steer you down a specific path at all times. Neither is wrong, just different. I like a mix of both and I don't see a problem with optimal paths to <whatever> existing in DIII.
  • #68
    I want to kill the first zombie outside Tristram and have it drop a full set.

    It's just how I want to play and it doesn't hurt anyone.
  • #69
    Quote from BigEd781

    DIII wants to steer you down a specific path at all times.

    It's funny that you say that because this change, and many others (scorpion runs pre-2.0, Mira runs, cursed chest runs, etc.) have all been nerfed because, if left unaddressed, they become the defacto "right" way to play the game.

    These things get nerfed because the way they "want" you to play the game is just to go out and kill monsters and feel relatively safe that if you choose Gardens of Hope Tier 1 and I choose the Weeping Hollow that neither of us has a massive advantage. Their "way" to play the game is that there shouldn't be a "right" way to play it, at least as it pertains to the question "Where should I farm?"

    These things get nerfed because, if they don't, they LIMIT choices. If you're not doing CotA you may be having fun, but you're probably imposing a 50% XP penalty on yourself. If they did nothing they'd silently be endorsing, as Ruksak put it, Baal runs 2.0. Which, oddly enough, would be forcing us all down the same path. They're actually fighting for our ability to choose whatever path we want because all paths are (close to) the same.

    That's kinda the opposite of trying to steer us down a specific path, isn't it?
    p420 :: 88.4k EK :: 2.45m TK
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  • #70
    Quote from shaggy
    Quote from BigEd781

    DIII wants to steer you down a specific path at all times.

    It's funny that you say that because this change, and many others (scorpion runs pre-2.0, Mira runs, cursed chest runs, etc.) have all been nerfed because, if left unaddressed, they become the defacto "right" way to play the game.

    These things get nerfed because the way they "want" you to play the game is just to go out and kill monsters and feel relatively safe that if you choose Gardens of Hope Tier 1 and I choose the Weeping Hollow that neither of us has a massive advantage. Their "way" to play the game is that there shouldn't be a "right" way to play it, at least as it pertains to the question "Where should I farm?"

    These things get nerfed because, if they don't, they LIMIT choices. If you're not doing CotA you may be having fun, but you're probably imposing a 50% XP penalty on yourself. If they did nothing they'd silently be endorsing, as Ruksak put it, Baal runs 2.0. Which, oddly enough, would be forcing us all down the same path. They're actually fighting for our ability to choose whatever path we want because all paths are (close to) the same.

    That's kinda the opposite of trying to steer us down a specific path, isn't it?

    I don't buy the "I feel forced to play this way" argument. I don't buy the "runs like CotA limit choice" line. I have a choice. If I don't find that fun then I don't have to do it, period. I know Blizz says stuff like this a lot, but I don't agree with them (at least, not when it comes to a game like Diablo, with no competition and being essentially single player. For a game like WoW I understand.) I didn't run CotA, but if I wanted to be as efficient as possible I would have. That simply wasn't my priority. I wanted to have fun, that's all.

    It's not that I don't appreciate your point though. I understand the goal of making the entire game "as efficient as possible", it's just that I, and others, enjoy finding that one spot, that one run, that one <whatever> that's just a bit better than the rest. I often enjoy that kind of play because I like the feeling of leveling/grinding more quickly than I could otherwise. I do this in every RPG I play and I have fun doing it.
    Last edited by BigEd781: 3/22/2014 6:17:01 PM
  • #71
    ^ This post here reminded me of time spent in the late nineties playing final fantasy 3(6), marching back and forth in that goddamn dinosaur forest for at least 60 hours.....wow...them memories........
    Last edited by Shurgosa: 3/22/2014 6:44:45 PM
  • #72
    So... yeah a see a lot of talking about Blizzard's "solution" to this CotA problem in this thread. I myself never did CotA runs (tried it once just to check it out) and I have no interest in short runs like that... but that's just me. I do feel that Blizzard did a lazy change, that affected the way EVERYONE plays cause some people (have no clue what %) found the efficiency of CotA to be the bee's knees.

    This I have a problem with, but I've said this before, and I'm not buying RoS cause of a lot of other issues as well. Mainly several of their general game design choices and bugs (for the WD) still present since 1.0, preventing me to play the kind of character I want.

    BUT I just wanted to jump into this debate to give some of you guys saying that this was Blizzard's least worse option of a solution they had... to this I say bullcrap. There are TONS of solutions to a problem like CotA. Here is an option (I can think up more if you really care):

    1. Remove ALL rare, legendary and set item drops from ALL low hp mobs. 0% chance and buff the drops on elite packs and high hp mobs a little bit. This way you would still give people who only care about XP/h and option of purely farming that but get no chances to get any gear. This way if you want to buff up that T1 to T4 and just focus your build on AoE and killing easy safe white mobs... why not get more exp for it, while the player still playing "normally" on T1 will get the same exp and drops as before. THIS is giving players choices.
    Winter is coming...
  • #73
    Quote from Nausicaa

    1. Remove ALL rare, legendary and set item drops from ALL low hp mobs. 0% chance and buff the drops on elite packs and high hp mobs a little bit. This way you would still give people who only care about XP/h and option of purely farming that but get no chances to get any gear. This way if you want to buff up that T1 to T4 and just focus your build on AoE and killing easy safe white mobs... why not get more exp for it, while the player still playing "normally" on T1 will get the same exp and drops as before. THIS is giving players choices.

    Yeah, you don't get it all, eh? The major complaint in this thread (one I don't agree with, but at least understand) is that nerfing cota effectively nerfed other Act I runs (Cath 4, in particular, but there may be others). Your "option" doesn't change that in the least. Your nerf to cota would equally nerf all of these other zones/runs that people are referring to. You're not giving players options, you're just choosing to punish them in a different way.
  • #74
    Quote from BigEd781
    Quote from shaggy
    Quote from BigEd781

    DIII wants to steer you down a specific path at all times.

    It's funny that you say that because this change, and many others (scorpion runs pre-2.0, Mira runs, cursed chest runs, etc.) have all been nerfed because, if left unaddressed, they become the defacto "right" way to play the game.

    These things get nerfed because the way they "want" you to play the game is just to go out and kill monsters and feel relatively safe that if you choose Gardens of Hope Tier 1 and I choose the Weeping Hollow that neither of us has a massive advantage. Their "way" to play the game is that there shouldn't be a "right" way to play it, at least as it pertains to the question "Where should I farm?"

    These things get nerfed because, if they don't, they LIMIT choices. If you're not doing CotA you may be having fun, but you're probably imposing a 50% XP penalty on yourself. If they did nothing they'd silently be endorsing, as Ruksak put it, Baal runs 2.0. Which, oddly enough, would be forcing us all down the same path. They're actually fighting for our ability to choose whatever path we want because all paths are (close to) the same.

    That's kinda the opposite of trying to steer us down a specific path, isn't it?

    I don't buy the "I feel forced to play this way" argument. I don't buy the "runs like CotA limit choice" line. I have a choice. If I don't find that fun then I don't have to do it, period. I know Blizz says stuff like this a lot, but I don't agree with them (at least, not when it comes to a game like Diablo, with no competition and being essentially single player. For a game like WoW I understand.) I didn't run CotA, but if I wanted to be as efficient as possible I would have. That simply wasn't my priority. I wanted to have fun, that's all.

    It's not that I don't appreciate your point though. I understand the goal of making the entire game "as efficient as possible", it's just that I, and others, enjoy finding that one spot, that one run, that one that's just a bit better than the rest. I often enjoy that kind of play because I like the feeling of leveling/grinding more quickly than I could otherwise. I do this in every RPG I play and I have fun doing it.

    I'm not sure what there is to "buy" in the argument. Moreover, I'm not sure how your personal experience and way of playing the game has any bearing on whether the argument is a good one or not.

    The argument is that there is a critical mass of players who are of a particular predisposition that have a very adverse reaction to a significant opportunity cost. That is, given the choice between "fun gameplay" and "efficient gameplay", they will feel compelled to go the "efficient gameplay" route because what they perceive as the wasted opportunity of going the "fun gameplay" route is substantial enough to ruin their enjoyment. Thus, for these players, they are effectively stuck in a Catch-22: they can play the boring way, or get frustrated and ultimate bored playing the "fun" way.

    It's pretty indisputable that at least some of these players exist. Clearly you're not one of them, but I'll admit that I'm probably pretty close to being in that category. And I'm certainly not the only one.

    The only real question is: how big of a playerbase does that group represent? Is it a tiny fraction? A large majority? Somewhere in between? I actually don't think game companies have done proper research into this (or maybe they have), but given that their financial success depends on knowing answers to questions like these, I'm going to go ahead and give a successful gaming company the benefit of the doubt here and say they know what they're doing.

    In other words, whether you're one of those people or not, there's apparently a large enough group out there who do feel negatively impacted by cota runs for this to be worth addressing for Blizzard.
    Last edited by Ravidel11: 3/22/2014 10:30:47 PM
  • #75
    Quote from Ravidel11
    Quote from Nausicaa

    1. Remove ALL rare, legendary and set item drops from ALL low hp mobs. 0% chance and buff the drops on elite packs and high hp mobs a little bit. This way you would still give people who only care about XP/h and option of purely farming that but get no chances to get any gear. This way if you want to buff up that T1 to T4 and just focus your build on AoE and killing easy safe white mobs... why not get more exp for it, while the player still playing "normally" on T1 will get the same exp and drops as before. THIS is giving players choices.

    Yeah, you don't get it all, eh? The major complaint in this thread (one I don't agree with, but at least understand) is that nerfing cota effectively nerfed other Act I runs (Cath 4, in particular, but there may be others). Your "option" doesn't change that in the least. Your nerf to cota would equally nerf all of these other zones/runs that people are referring to. You're not giving players options, you're just choosing to punish them in a different way.

    Read it again... this time carefully >.>
    Winter is coming...
  • #76
    The nerf of ANY farming area at this point is just punishment. With the AH being closed and no real money trading hands..who cares? Let players farm where they want. If somebody finds a easy place to farm it harms nobody. There is nothing to gain.
  • #77
    Quote from ratmaz313 »
    The nerf of ANY farming area at this point is just punishment. With the AH being closed and no real money trading hands..who cares? Let players farm where they want. If somebody finds a easy place to farm it harms nobody. There is nothing to gain.

    I'll need to save this somewhere so I stop writing it in reply to these things in every topic.

    Finding a spot where the farm is easier "makes" the other players go there, because they feel they're not efficient enough otherwise. All the topics of "Blizzard is forcing me to do this" are exactly that. One thing in the game that is a bit unbalanced compared to the rest of it. A skill does 5% more damage? Blizzard is forcing it. An item that gives 5% more Crit Damage? Blizzard are forcing it. An area that gives 5% more XP? Blizzard are forcing it.

    You can't have "it hurts nobody", because it hurts the game's image and the community's behavior.

    Ha. Bagstone.

  • #78
    Never really thought of it that way but I never really do the farming runs like everyone else. I just derp around whatever act I feel like at the time, although admittedly at lower exp/drop chances than farming certain areas.

    It would be nice for it to be completely equal but at a point that does become a bit harder and near impossible. Blizzard knows this though, they aren't shooting for absolute equality as they've said recently about Mira runs, they just want it to be comparable to normal leveling. So I imagine once the rest of the game is comparable to these farming areas then they'll stop nerfing more and more of them. That way people like me who just fight where they like the scenery and spawnrate will still get near the same results as someone farming a specific area repeatedly because it's faster runs or some such.
  • #79
    Quote from Finder

    I want to kill the first zombie outside Tristram and have it drop a full set.

    It's just how I want to play and it doesn't hurt anyone.

    This will probably raise a few eyebrows but... It really doesn't hurt anyone. The whole concept of having some sort of competition in D3 is purely artificial. At least for now. It's like if TL2 players suddenly start complaining about over 9000 cheat mods out there. No one does that, right? Why should it be different here? Why would anyone complain if you want all the legendaries in the world?

    I know that we've been through this a long time ago, but we wouldn't have this discussion if D3 had an online mode for ladders and HC and offline for all the others.
  • #80
    in diablo 2 no one cared that you farmed the same areas, in d3 the devs panic-hotfix-nerf everything
  • #81
    ^ truth. I like how everyone is clinging to the "wait 2-3 days for adventure mode/ Neph rifts". Are you guys that naive? Those are just gonna get the nerf bat in the first 4 hours just like everything else.
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