A little Heart to Heart about RoS...

  • #21

    Quote from Ducha

    A lengthy forum post written by DrothVader - MVP on the state of RoS during the F&F beta.

    I'll provide the link to the thread on the battle.net forums as well as post it here with a spoiler tag so it doesn't create a huge wall of text.
    Link to the forum post:http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/11307900907

    Now, I say all of this with no ill will towards anyone. I don’t mean to cause any unrest, or upset people, but I feel what I have to say has to be said for the future of Reaper of Souls.

    I speak for nobody but myself, and I am being absolutely 100% truthful when I say that I am disappointed with Reaper of Souls since the Friends and Family push ended. I spoke so highly of the development of Diablo III and how many amazing improvements were coming down the pipeline, but I fear I might have spoken too soon.

    There are some really great and amazing features that have come out in the last push. One of them being able see what type of elemental damage each skill does instead of having to guess. That is a very welcomed addition. Even then, there are a lot of great things this expansion adds which are Rifts and Bounties.

    Rifts have so much amazing potential that I feel is absolutely wasted. The core design behind them is great. I love being able to play randomized dungeons with randomized enemies. But even after a while, that can get boring and stale. Not quite as stale as it would be if you were doing something like CotA runs, but still it gets pretty monotonous after a while. Then there’s literally no incentive to finish the dungeons which makes them feel unpolished and bland. On top of that, they’re no more rewarding than a bounty run anyway which makes them even more underwhelming. All of that said though, I still welcome rifts anyway.

    I was so excited when I played the Friends and Family push. Sure, there were quite a few bugs that still needed ironed out, but overall the progression felt good. It felt natural… Now, the droprates on Legendaries might have been a little too high, but it didn’t need adjusted much. Maybe 1/2 or 1/3 of what they were during the F&F.

    Now when I play I don’t have that feeling of the next greatest drop being around the corner… I have this feeling that I am never going to be able to find anything worthwhile. Also, given the fact that Legendaries almost never drop, any that does isn’t worth using because I was able to find a better rare in the meantime thanks to Enchanting. Now every time I am even lucky enough to find one, I have to think to myself “Is it really worth making a 10% or even higher concession in DPS just so shrines last 5 times longer?” More often than not, that answer is no. So now when I do find a Legendary, it has to be more powerful than the rare I had obtained…

    These droprates are awful. So awful in fact that the BoA model is no longer justifiable which is a complete shame given how hard I fought for BoA. I was among the first, if not the very first who publicly advocated on a consistent basis that the top end of gear needed to be BoA. I know this model can and will work, but not like this.

    Now I see even in the latest push the droprates were still not raised… The justification for this being that gambling can now produce a Legendary.

    So you’re forcing 2 things upon the playerbase now.

    1) In order to enjoy anything remotely close to a good droprate you have to buy RoS.
    2) Bounties are THE MOST important thing you can do in game… again…

    Since shards don’t increase past expert, what motivation would there be to even play past expert in the first place?

    You have such an amazing base for a game, but it is a continual disappointment given how little consideration there is for psychologically motivating a player to continue playing your game.

    Someone almost 2 years ago gave this analogy (I believe it was Wyatt) and I feel it is very appropriate. Keep in mind I’m paraphrasing from memory as I cannot remember where I read it.

    If you feed the Monkey too much juice, it will become fat and lethargic.
    However, if you feed the Monkey too little juice, it will starve to death.

    The thing you want to do in this case is to feed the Monkey (IE players) enough to not make them fat, but also keep them from feeling starved.

    You have very consistently been given feedback that the droprates are not high enough to justify playing the game. Perhaps this is what you’re testing for? How much you can starve the players of drops until they just throw in the towel and quit your game?

    With the game as it is now and your justification for low droprates being that you can gamble for them, I would not expect this game to last more than just a few months. As I said, with droprates as low as they are now, there is absolutely no justification for BoA. In addition, elites only drop between 1 – 3 pieces of gear whereas before they used to drop between 3 – 5… If you kept the same roll chance for a Legendary, you have nearly HALVED the droprate on Legendaries… You guys need to look at the whole picture with your changes. If you keep changing 1091823098 variables at once without seeing how each one interacts with each other, you’re not gathering any meaningful data. With all of these changes happening at once, it’s like all of the time spent researching droprates was wasted.

    In addition to all of that, when you changed the damage output of some spells, you justified it by reducing the chance to find Health Potions and Health Globes… So now it feels even WORSE because I have less healing coming in and I will at some point be forced to buy potions because they don’t drop enough to sustain my inventory. This is yet another situation where the pendulum has swung in the complete opposite direction.

    I advocated for BoA for so long because I wanted a game that was rewarding, but wasn’t influenced by a global market. Right now it seems the game is catering towards those who dedicate their whole life to this game and given that’s what, about 0.1% of your playerbase do you really expect the game to succeed like that?

    Players who play this game 10+ hours a day for a year will NEVER be satisfied with whatever model you put forth. You should make your game more enjoyable for the other 99.9% of the playerbase. You know, the ones who will actually refer their friends and say “Hey, come play this great game with me!”

    As it stands right now, even though I preordered my physical CE the very first day that gamestop was taking preorders I am contemplating cancelling and applying that money elsewhere.

    You have a chance to redeem this title, and I feel like you’re squandering it…

    Now as I said, I say none of this with ill will towards anyone. I say this because if all of this is left unsaid the game might be doomed to the same failures it made with Vanilla. Please, do not repeat the mistakes of the past. Stop trying to artificially extend the life of the game by giving us this masochistic grind for the sake of having a grind. Instead, give us reasons to play the game multiple times like you would in a ladder.

    RoS is probably your last chance before the rest of your playerbase jumps ship. Now that you’ve upset all types of players with RoS (Those who traded and those who enjoy finding stuff on their own) if you don’t get it right with RoS it may not be recoverable.

    I’ll try and force myself to test RoS for a little bit longer, but any hope I have of the game getting better is dwindling.

    I hope what I have said doesn’t strike a nerve, because this is more of a plea. Please save RoS.

    I'm a huge fan of the Diablo universe(mainly the lore-side of it) and games. I was really looking forward to RoS, pre-ordered the CE and all! But now I'm starting to think whether I should cancel that pre-order due to all of the negative feedback it's getting during the PTR and Beta. However, there's still 2 months until it get's released so I've got high hopes that the issues will get ironed out. *Fingers Crossed*

    Unfortunately I can't add my support to that official forum topic because I don't have access to the Beta, but regardless I agree with those points.
    The major points for me are:
    Legendary drop rates are too low. If the loot is BoA then drop rates need to be high. Period. Not as high as F&F Beta, but still high.
    Rifts are non-rewarding - so many people agree on this that I agree despite not playing any Rifts. If it is indeed in such a state that you gave to do Bounties in order to do Rifts only to find Bounties much more rewarding than Rifts then it is a design fail.
    Pietrak#2537 - changed my battle.tag just for you ;P
  • #22
    I have not played beta, but boy you guys are scaring me :(

    Everything you guys are saying really IS scary. No trading = BoA = never finding goodloot? That formula shouldn't seem to be rocket science or solving world hunger

  • #23
    The reason for this is that Legendaries are now accessible through the Blood Shard vendor (purchases have a chance to give you a Legendary item). This is a pretty significant change, and we'd like to see how this interacts with drop rates and acquisition before we tweak numbers elsewhere.

    This comes from the new blue post, lets just wait till it was tested. Blizz already stated they think the droprates are too low and this will not change it so drastically they will tweak the drop chance just wait a little. Still 2 months till the release that is a huge amount of time even if it doesn't seems so

  • #24
    I preordered RoS via a 3rd party for 27 EUR. And I must say, according to everything I've seen, read and played on PTR so far, I am very close to regretting it. >.> Hopefully all the negative feedback will actually accomplish something and make them fix at least the largest issues.
  • #25
    A secondary issue here is the times Blizzard takes to fix stuff.

    Let say, the game ships with some important design failures, we unfortunately cannot say anymore: "it's OK, Blizzard will patch it ASAP because 110% of the users are pointing it as a problem that must and can be fixed in a timely manner".

    We all know how much time Blizzard took to fix minor(like, id all) stuff, this lack of feedback transformed into action, is sadly a deal breaker.

    So, it's not only about the state of the game when it releases, but what happens after that is what scares, at least me, most.
    Last edited by Artemix: 1/20/2014 8:34:25 AM
  • #26

    Quote from Kegaran

    Blizz already stated they think the droprates are too low and this will not change it so drastically they will tweak the drop chance just wait a little. Still 2 months till the release that is a huge amount of time even if it doesn't seems so

    What you're not calculating into this is that patch 2.0.1, the pre-RoS patch, will hit sometime during that 2 month time. It could be a week before, it could be next week. We have no idea when. This patch is basically the RoS changes without the RoS content. So yes, there is reason for concern; they have a pretty short time to get this right, and so far, there is no indication that they are making headway in doing so.

    You also have to figure in how typically, toward the end of beta development, games are generally more polished. It should be all about working out the minor kinks here very soon, within the next week or so. Hard copies of the product also have to ship soon. Don't get me wrong, all of this should be manageable within the given timeframe. The concern is that, given Blizz's track record in implementing changes, and the relative silence of blues about what's going on, RoS on release is going to be a disaster. There is a lot on their table right now, and they have a short time span to get it right. People will still play the game, no question about it. But if it is released in any shape similar to what it is now, it'll be very difficult for Blizz to attempt to redeem D3 yet again, especially after falling short on so much of the hype.
  • #27
    I didn't forget that it is the pre patch but I think it will hit with close of the AH, it would fall in the 1 week to 1 month before release of the expansion. With the hard copies they have to be shipped yes, but a thing as drop rate changes could go easily as a day one patch. Other than these things I don't see many bugs in the game anymore (as PTR tester) only thing I notice is that i can still equip items above my level if I crafted a item that is my level. But I think you are right about your concern, they realy could have a lot more to polish on the RoS content, don't know about that. Who knows many of the things could still happen.

    And the Patch and RoS in current state may not be enough to redeem D3 but it is a step in the right directions, I realy think the Patch made the normal D3 much better. The only reason I still play D3 Vanilla are some friends, without them I would only play the PTR version.
  • #28
    That's just it, it's not just the drop rates. I wish it was that simple, we'd be all set at that point. Rifts are unrewarding. Items are unfinished, at least I hope so; legendaries with 1 primary stat can't be finished, right? They're testing the gambling part now. Hopefully, they address splitfarming bounties. Bounties right now are the most rewarding way to farm. There is still some skill balancing/tweaking to do. There's concern about mob hps and damage, particularly in higher Torment levels. A good bit of work to do still, and time's running short.

    My hope is that it can all be reasonably polished in that time, but my faith is dwindling the longer these issues go unaddressed, delayed, or flipflopped on.
  • #29
    It looks like that was a lot of words just to say "I'm pretty happy with RoS and most of its features, but drop rates and rewards need to be tweaked/improved." The next beta patch could tweak legendary drop rates (that before some said were way too high) up.Or not. Who knows. What we do know is that everyone seems pretty happy with the improvements to the game and all the complaints are centered around some numbers tweaking.

    By all means, express your concerns and give lots of feedback, but making assumptions like:

    You guys need to look at the whole picture with your changes. If you keep changing 1091823098 variables at once without seeing how each one interacts with each other, you’re not gathering any meaningful data. With all of these changes happening at once, it’s like all of the time spent researching droprates was wasted.

    ...is really silly and just conjecture that isn't necessary.
    Last edited by eman41: 1/20/2014 9:51:41 AM
  • #30
    Okay didn't knew about these things, but all we can do is hope and also give mannered feedback not like many of these spam and hate threads. The ones in blue may be quiet but that doesn't that they don't work on it.
  • #31
    I think a big problem is they are allowing MMO devs and managers build this game. They are having an extremely hard time moving beyond the idea that the game must be artificially extended as much as possible. It's the mindset that they must keep people playing and paying monthly subscription fees. They do this by dangling the giant carrot of uber gear from the final boss of the latest endgame raid. That carrot has to last long enough for the next endgame raid to be added.

    They don't seem to completely understand that not all ARPG players are MMO players, and those that are have those boring mechanics in their MMO already and don't want it in their ARPG.

    They also don't understand that ARPG players will not put up with those mechanics in D3, their are other ARPGs out their and they seem to mostly be reacting to what the fans want.
  • #32
    As far as the concerns about drop rates: they have constantly maintained that during this F&F/Beta process that drop rates have been artificially inflated or decreased to test and gather data. I wouldn't worry too much, they are still developing the game and chances are high that the rates will be where a large part of the player base would like at release.

    Regarding development of Rifts/Bounties/endgame: I think more of the community should focus their attention here and continue to voice ideas. There does seem to be a lot of disconnect in how each system interacts with the other. Or more aptly; its a great idea and they haven't done enough with it.

    I for one love seeing the steps in the right direction of crafting and materials to craft rare/legendary items. I personally feel that material hunt to craft some great gear can be a valuable asset toward endgame longevity. I know that farming materials to be able to make a great piece of gear falls dangerously close to the MMO side of things, but it is yet another "reward" to farming.

  • #33
    Cool story. Glad I haven't pre-orded anything, if nothing changes I won't be buying either. F U Blizzard.
    Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
  • #34
    Quote from Polrayne

    As far as the concerns about drop rates: they have constantly maintained that during this F&F/Beta process that drop rates have been artificially inflated or decreased to test and gather data. I wouldn't worry too much, they are still developing the game and chances are high that the rates will be where a large part of the player base would like at release.

    I agree with you, but I'm going to still "argue" if you will.

    When they announced BoA most people thought "Well without the AH that means drop rates will go up significantly." When people got their hands on the beta, the drop rates actually seem no better, and sometimes worse, than live. So, for most people, this doesn't come off as poor tuning, but a complete "miss" in expectations.

    Personally, on some level, I probably could live with BoA and STFU, but the drop rates have to be enough that the "carrot on a stick" actually works. This point is different for each person, but for me it's a pretty large bit above where it is. I don't want gambling to be the primary source of gear, that's asinine and mostly goes against the idea that's been shoved down our throats that the only way for us to have fun is killing monsters.

    I'm not sure if I'm the only one, but it makes my blood boil when I kill a blue/yellow/purple and get all blue items. I don't like "guaranteed" loot, but not getting one yellow+ item from an elite almost makes me wonder why the fuck I'd waste my time killing said elite if it might only drop a blue. The risk/reward seems completely jacked up in that scenario to me.
    67.1k elite kills :: 1.98m total kills :: p255
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #35
    I read the post by 'The Tias' and I am guttered...

    I have been away from the game(and posting on these forums) for the last month as I wait for the expansion -playing live for paragon levels is boring. After being so excited for D3X and then reading all of the negative things the MVPs have to say on RoS.. I am sad.

    Since 2009 I have been a member of Dfans. checking everyday for updates. Watching the E3 gameplay footage of D3 for the first time when Siege breaker tore apart the barbarian (literally). I said to my wife "when D3 comes out I won't have to buy another game for like 10 years until D4 comes out " :p.

    I played D3 with my mates when it finally went live. Always defending D3 when those mates left and said that it was lame and that they were disappointed."Don't worry", I said. "D3 has a great base,its going to get better". "Loot 2.0 is going to fix all the issues that made you leave the first time"...

    I have for the first time started to question my faith in D3. Like an indoctrinated child of Christianity for the first time stops and thinks critically about what they believe in.

    After reading that post by 'The Tias' I am questioning whether I even want to buy my CE edition too. Should I give up and look to other games.. I will see what happens over the next month or so. Keeping a close eye on what the community has to say about any improvements Blizz makes to the Beta before release.. but my confidence is wavering :(
    Last edited by CheehC: 1/20/2014 2:47:48 PM
  • #36
    What is going on here... Shaggy and Bleu not going all fan mode activated?... I'm impressed.
  • #37
    I have to say...I really wish people would specify what they mean by "drop rates." Not that I don't necessarily know what "drop rate," but when people aren't seeing enough legendaries in D3, they usually default to the same bloody argument..."they really need to increase drop rates." But drop rates aren't always the answer to the problem, nor is it always the problem.

    Example...during one of the community's MANY whining sessions about drop rates of high end gear, a patch came out that increased monster density. The only drop rates Blizzard changed were on the little stupid scorpions and bugs people were exploiting in Act 3 (and people still complained about it, pretty sad if you ask me). Overall, they didn't "raise drop rates" like everyone begged for them to do, but in the end..."the rate at which people saw legendaries" ended up rising ever so slightly due simply to the fact that people were killing more monsters.

    That being said...I think part of the issue here is that people are seriously underestimating the value of Rares. They see the potency of the updated legendaries, and imagine how marvelous it'd be to run a fair and square OP build that people can't shoot holes through ("you flipped items for gold to buy that," "you're a credit card warrior," etc.), and they salivate as they ponder all the wonderful build possibilities of the awesome legendaries...then their logic sets in, and they think "well gosh, I'll never see those in my play time with bad drop rates like this, so I don't want to play...time to cancel my pre-order/so glad I haven't pre-ordered."

    Think about it, though...all in all, low drop rates of legendaries may seem really discouraging, but if people aren't seeing enough legendaries to make particular builds work, it isn't hard to gather up Veiled Crystals, Arcane Dust, Common Debris, and gold to Enchant Rares to do all sorts of stuff players want them to do to make cool builds work in the meantime while pursuing awesome legendaries.

    In fact...and what I'm about to say may be bordering on curse words here, but people could even...perhaps...TRADE for particular Rares that have specific base stats on them, specifically so they can Enchant the right stats onto them to make builds work better. Granted, powerful and common builds using mostly rares may be builds that aren't going to be bothered with when people gather up a ton of legendaries....Cooldown Reduction builds, Resource Cost Reduction Builds, builds that work in Paragon Point allocation in general. But they'll still be potent enough to work on while legendaries are taking time to show up.

    Sure, finding amazing WD pet legendaries to make a sweet Zoo build, the Life Regen boots, or Frostburn Gauntlets for permafreeze, or other such legendaries would be seriously awesome. I can't wait to see them all. But there are still great builds to be made in the meantime using Rares.

    Honestly, I love finding Legendaries and Sets and all that stuff. And I realize Diablo is, at the very core, a loot hunt. So I get it...if a person isn't finding good enough loot, chances are their satisfaction level is pretty low. But I think part of Blizzard's MO here is to place more utility and purpose on Rares, while making high end legendaries and sets the far off goal to continue chasing after. I mean, if most of those Legendaries are as OP as they've looked, they're not mandatory. They're icing on the cake.

    The big issue here is that Reaper of Souls has tons more item customization and options than D3 ever did. And "tweaking" the drop rates too much, like other people have said here, is really touchy. They can only "raise them" so much, as if they make them too high, game becomes too easy. They're handing legendaries out to anyone killing a few mobs. At least if they're low, they remain out there to be acquired. Which is why Rares are still tradeable. Legendaries can be superpowered, sometimes overpowered, but Rares can be treated like projects.

    If I have a build in mind, or an Enchanting direction I want to take, and I need a Rare...I'm heading to the Trade channel, because chances are, I'll have a ton of crafting materials to do some heavy duty Enchanting. And if I get the right Rare I want, I'll be able to make the build I want. Even if Rares continue to be purchased with real money on some 3rd party site...they won't be the end all of item progression, but at least they'll be good enough to keep a player going.
    Pre AH-shutdown Transcendence/Spirit (Re)gen build, uses only found and crafted gear and gems, can handle MP7.
  • #38
    I've been playing the PTR, leveling up characters from scratch and honestly I didn't really experience what Droth and the others were saying until I hit about 55. Now I get it.

    There's a wall that gets hit about then and another at 60. Double the wall with the gear/loot drop rate and it's "interesting". I hear that there is another wall at 60 - 70 in Act 5. Now, I don't have an issue working on my character but this wall does need to be smoothed out. One way or another, add to the fact with the wall, gear being BoA.

    Either they need to change the BoA, or they need to do something with the drop rates to make the game interesting beyond 60 (or 70 as it maybe). I think there's an experience of a pendulum swing right now, we had some pretty decent sized nerfs to a few classes that is being felt, and mob density upswing, and they say they increased the drops. I'm not sure people are seeing the 3rd part.

    I still have my CE on order, and it'll take me a lot to cancel it, but......I would prefer to play D3:RoS beyond 2 weeks. I would like to play like I did when D2 was the center of my gaming universe. Maybe...that's just asking too much.
  • #40

    Quote from shaggy

    I'm not sure if I'm the only one, but it makes my blood boil when I kill a blue/yellow/purple and get all blue items. I don't like "guaranteed" loot, but not getting one yellow+ item from an elite almost makes me wonder why the fuck I'd waste my time killing said elite if it might only drop a blue. The risk/reward seems completely jacked up in that scenario to me.

    Would it help if they allowed Blood Shards to drop from yellow and purple mobs? That way you have a chance to get awesome gear through spending that currency gambling?
  • #41
    There seem to be so many packs that a guaranteed maybe too much. What about a moderate chance of one to drop? That way you still get that "oh awesome!" feeling when one does but it's not so frequent it's expected.

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