I think that whatever changes they make in 2.0, they need to give people who don't buy the expansion at least as much to do as they have now. I don't know how anyone could disagree with that. Since the monsters scale to player level, and players without the expansion can't get past level 60, I'm not sure why they can't have Torment. But regardless of how it ends up, it's lame if the game gets made easier/less rewarding for people who don't buy the expansion.
Everything else, on the other hand, is new content and you'll have to pay for it. Even Adventure mode. It's a new feature that they implemented by popular demand, and while it mostly just lets you re-use content in a different way, it still adds new value and new value always costs. I don't know what any of you do for a living, but if I do a project for a client of mine and after they use it for a while they come back and say, "I'd like you to make it so I can do this as well," I do it, but they get charged. The only time I'd change something for free is if it didn't work, but Diablo 3 works just fine without Adventure Mode. Just look at your Paragon levels.
Adventure mode is not new content. Sorry, but I can never agree with that. Bounties are new content, but the ability to freely move around waypoints is not. Hell, their 12-year-old predecessor already had it, and the only reason they didn't include it in this title is because of their own pig-headedness, wanting to differentiate themselves from that game as much as possible.
Quote from daisychopper»The only time I'd change something for free is if it didn't work, but Diablo 3 works just fine without Adventure Mode. Just look at your Paragon levels.
Diablo 3 worked just fine without reworked legendaries, yet they reworked them; it worked just fine without ubers, yet they added them in; it worked just fine without skill balances, yet they balance them; and so on, and so on.Your view is extremely limited and short-sighted. There's such a thing as a sense of justice and fairness. But I've been here for a while, now, and judging from what I've seen over the years, I don't expect many to even understand what I'm talking about.
Based on the replies already I feel it's pointless for me to mention my thoughts, but I will anyways:
Yes it's a lame "excuse" but you have to buy the expansion. The game is evolving and most if not all will be buying the expansion (who still play the game). There will be no balance for a Vanilla D3 experience because that's not the intent. The Reaper of Souls features have been on video and streams for about a month now. Everybody should know where they stand on the future of the game.
The PTR is not "RoS Beta lite". It is testing the core system changes that are being implemented likely 2 weeks to a month before the expansion. Based on how Blizzard has treated these types of patches with WoW - they likely don't care how awkward or broken the vanilla version will be for two weeks. The PTR is not meant to satisfy your need for new content, so all of these "I quit because of what's on the PTR" people honestly in my opinion are idiots who didn't even intend to buy the expansion anyways. Again, these features have been on display for a few weeks now. You know what you're getting.
Reaper of Souls is the new game. If you don't buy it you don't get most of the new features. Either way, I don't care. The point is the PTR is not "RoS beta lite" and vanilla D3 will no longer be the main focus of balance once everyone has moved on to RoS.
Wait, there are people who actually want to play diablo 3, who don't want to buy RoS?
That makes no sense at all.
Why not? Many people preferred to play D2 classic over LoD.You can't screw over people just because they won't buy the expansion, it's not a good practice. It's sleazy, and not something I would normally expect from Blizzard.
No one played D2 classic after LoD came out. That is an outright lie.
This is all just a bunch of whining to try to get RoS stuff 2 weeks/months early.
I agree. But I think we also know that, based on his track record of complaining, if they gave adventure mode to D3C the OP would then be whining that he doesn't get bounties.
And then if he gets bounties he'll want the crusader.
And then if he gets the crusader he'll want Act 5.
And then if he gets Act 5 he'll want the mystic.
If you give a mouse a cookie........
I'm not saying they shouldn't put in Adventure Mode, either. I'm just saying that people who are intent on being discontent are going to find a way to be discontent no matter what you do. And, I'll be honest here, I really don't think Blizzard should, at all, be wasting their time trying to appease people who AREN'T going to buy the expansion. If someone is set against buying RoS to the point that they're begging for more free content, I really doubt giving them adventure mode is going to get them to buy it. And then guess what? When we get 2.0.2 and 2.0.3 and 2.0.4 the same people who didn't buy RoS are going to complain that they should be getting some of that content too.
The PTR is not meant to satisfy your need for new content, so all of these "I quit because of what's on the PTR" people honestly in my opinion are idiots who didn't even intend to buy the expansion anyways.
No, the PTR is there for people to test whatever's in the PTR, and give feedback. And what's in the PTR gives an indication of what will be in D3 classic.So what if people don't plan on buying the expansion? They still bought Diablo 3, still want to play it, and have the right to, at least, not have it become worse because they're not buying the expansion.The expansion is just that: an expansion. More content. It's not supposed to be an instrument to tell players "either get on board or get lost". That so many of you are willing to accept practices like this, hell, even support and defend them, is way beyond my comprehension.
I agree with what you say. However it's just not how Blizzard practices business these days. It's important people understand that the Vanilla D3 will not be balanced once RoS comes out. That's all I'm trying to say really. Should it be? Of course, nobody should be forced to buy the expansion. That's just how it is these days with gaming companies. I don't agree with it or support it, I just kind of see what is there and read the book blizzard is writing I guess.
Look at EA. They release they same damn sports game every year. Dramatic changes only come every 3-4 years. However they don't let you update the rosters/player ratings once the new one comes out. Is that fair, forcing people to buy a new one every year? No not really. Do they care? No not really. Do people buy the new version every year? Yes they do.
You can update the rosters in those games yourself. Just stop being lazy and making EA do it for you. What is the point in them wasting resources on older games anyway? Terrible example to give.
Yes, a lot of people still play D2 classic over LoD, but as has been said hundreds of times, this is NOT D2.
It isn't like D3V gets the shaft, the main selling point is the increased level limit honestly. It is fun to level a new character on the PTR, but once you hit 60 there isn't much gear progression and there isn't much to do. This is the point they are trying to make. Play D3V all that you like, and you will have fun, but at a certain point you run out of things to do, just like you do on 1.0.8. So hey, why not buy our new expansion, give us some money, and enjoy thousands of hours or new content. You can explore Adventure mode and fight new foes on a world map. How about you try a randomized Rift? Or the all new Crusader class! Oh, and the level limit has been raised by 10 to level 70! Come on buy, give us $30-$50 and enjoy!
They aren't in the business of giving people things for free that they've been working on for at least a year. Sure, they release regular patches and quality of life changes, but RoS honestly changes the game and if they gave D3V players the new mechanics there would be no reason to buy RoS other than a new act you may play through once and a new class that you could get to max level in a few days.
The "companies exist to make money" argument is tired, and, honestly, pretty lame. There's no good reason for them to nerf difficulty across the board and then introduce the 'old' difficulty as expansion content. None whatsoever.As for open world, it's something the community has been asking for almost since launch, and it's also a dick move to make it expansion content.None of these things are new content, there's no reason for them to be RoS exclusive.
The only valid argument would be that the difficulty is nerfed for vanilla. Everything else IS new content, you can't argue against that because.. well it's new.
And tired of an argument or not, it still stands; They can't make money if they make Vanilla just as attractive as the expansion, and if you want them to continue making anything, they need to make money. If any argument is bad, it's the 'well we've been asking for X for a long time, so it should be free!'. THAT, makes zero sense.
Are you being intentionally obnoxious or is it just a natural thing?Opening up the world is not content, it's jut allowing us to freely navigate the content that's already there, which, by the way, is something that should've been there from the start. Spin it any way you want, it's not content."Make vanilla just as attractive as expansion" - wow, just....wow. I don't know what you do for a living, but if you're not a spin doctor, then you really missed your calling. So, to you, RoS = the difficulty that was already there (MP10)+open world. The Mystic, the Crusader, Act V, level 70, bounties, rifts.....none of that matters, because if you give D3 Classic open world and torment difficulty (which is nothing more than MP10), then you make it "just as attractive as expansion". And to the dude that says that Master=MP10: go try to fool somebody else. Or better yet, go play the PTR, because anyone that says that Master=MP10 clearly hasn't player one minute of it.Honestly, this Stockholm Syndrome-style attitude of "companies exist to make money, so every move they make is a legitimate one" continues to baffle me to this day.
While personal attacks are fun I'll just ignore those. Yes open world is new. now whether you want to argue if its content or just a new feature either way it's new and exclusive to RoS.
I'll chime in with an agreement that holding difficulty back as Expansion content makes no sense to me. I think I know WHY they're doing it, the last difficulty makes items drop for high level characters, but that's not why we want it for our lowbies, we just want the challenge! I'm hoping they make it available.
I would also like to see the Adventure Mode map made available to D3 players who don't go into RoS. My guess is the only reason it's not is because they made it in such a way that they can't untie bounties from it. I know that seems like a silly thing to say, but look at the UI. People want a scalable UI but they hardcoded it so you can't change it and it would take programming changes to fix it. They probably tied bounties to adventure mode and don't have a simple 'switch' to turn it off. I'm hoping that's the only reason they aren't giving it to us, because it means they might be able to make it happen before launch with some of the engineers working on it.
The CMs have stated that Adventure Mode is still in flux and there's no hard decision on if you'll need RoS or how it will unlock yet. Granted the beta makes it seem like they have made that decision, many of us who've followed Blizzard know they've changed their minds mid beta before.
open world is not "a new mechanic", and neither is torment difficulty. These are the things that I think should be in D3 classic.
You KNOW I agree with this.
I just don't trust the general public to set reasonable limits. I have grown so cynical and tired of people who whine about D3 but don't actually play it that I see most of this as scope-creep up until the point that all RoS features are given away as a "free patch." Now, I know you are not personally asking for that, nor would you really take up that position, but I just can't shake the feeling that is exactly why threads like this get started.
It's just my lack of faith in the fact that "Vanilla Needs at least a Few RoS Features" is any sort of limited statement. The way I read that, especially from this community, is basically carte blanche to continue asking for RoS features handed out free of charge. Again, that's probably cynicism, but I tend to prefer YOUR statement which has a very clear scope and is not in danger of becoming a free-for-all as opposed to the open-ended nature of the thread subject. To me there is a difference. I feel your statement is actually logical, measured, and has a direct purpose in terms of "hey, if you do it this way you'll make D3C a lot more playable" instead of the other way which I read as "I want free shit." Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but for me there's a big difference when you keep the scope well-defined.
I'll chime in with an agreement that holding difficulty back as Expansion content makes no sense to me. I think I know WHY they're doing it, the last difficulty makes items drop for high level characters, but that's not why we want it for our lowbies, we just want the challenge! I'm hoping they make it available.
I would also like to see the Adventure Mode map made available to D3 players who don't go into RoS. My guess is the only reason it's not is because they made it in such a way that they can't untie bounties from it. I know that seems like a silly thing to say, but look at the UI. People want a scalable UI but they hardcoded it so you can't change it and it would take programming changes to fix it. They probably tied bounties to adventure mode and don't have a simple 'switch' to turn it off. I'm hoping that's the only reason they aren't giving it to us, because it means they might be able to make it happen before launch with some of the engineers working on it.
The CMs have stated that Adventure Mode is still in flux and there's no hard decision on if you'll need RoS or how it will unlock yet. Granted the beta makes it seem like they have made that decision, many of us who've followed Blizzard know they've changed their minds mid beta before.
I'm not sure if it will stick for Live or not, but currently on the PTR can "town portal" to any way point in an act from anywhere in that act. You can't go between acts like you can in Adventure Mode, but it's been a helpful addition for doing runs/cursed chest hunts. So the map is there, it's just currently linked in a campaign-focused way right now.
I'm not sure if it will stick for Live or not, but currently on the PTR can "town portal" to any way point in an act from anywhere in that act. You can't go between acts like you can in Adventure Mode, but it's been a helpful addition for doing runs/cursed chest hunts. So the map is there, it's just currently linked in a campaign-focused way right now.
Yes I love the new map, I should have been more clear on my meaning, however. I meant the ability to go between acts that Adventure mode has but campaign doesn't. Not having a RoS Beta account I was only speculating on why it's not available for non RoS players.
From what I know so far, I'm not going to get the expansion, seems like it can prolong the life of the game so little.
I don't think the expansion is there to improve the endgame for Diablo 3.
It's primary goal seems to be to address class balance, itemization concerns, and improving the loot hunt.
With Blizzard's recent interest in reading feedback on endgame possibilities, we'll see updates to prolong the life of Diablo 3 after RoS.
Adventure mode is not new content. Sorry, but I can never agree with that. Bounties are new content, but the ability to freely move around waypoints is not. Hell, their 12-year-old predecessor already had it, and the only reason they didn't include it in this title is because of their own pig-headedness, wanting to differentiate themselves from that game as much as possible.
Okay, first of all, bounties and rifts are not separate features - they're part of Adventure Mode. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can do them in Campaign Mode, and they don't really fit in with the story (although you could make a case for the rifts, I guess). But, as I said, even if Adventure Mode just lets you re-play existing content in a different way, it's adding value and that's why it's not unreasonable for them to hold it for the expansion. Whether or not it's "new content," it's not in the game right now and they are under no continuing obligation to add it for free.
Diablo 3 worked just fine without reworked legendaries, yet they reworked them; it worked just fine without ubers, yet they added them in; it worked just fine without skill balances, yet they balance them; and so on, and so on.Your view is extremely limited and short-sighted. There's such a thing as a sense of justice and fairness. But I've been here for a while, now, and judging from what I've seen over the years, I don't expect many to even understand what I'm talking about.
For all of your infinite wisdom, no doubt meticulously cultivated over those years and without which we would surely be lost, it's surprising to hear you suggest Diablo 3 worked "just fine without re-worked legendaries," since I don't think a day has gone by since the game came out in which the forums were not alight with posts about how shitty legendaries were ruining the game.
And surely, over the course of your long and illustrious forum career, you must've come across even a few of the many posts talking about how shitty the game was because a handful of broken skills made it so that only one or two builds were viable. The game was pretty good without the ubers though
The point is, however, that you and I both know the reworked legendaries and the rebalanced skills were added to D3V so that it would be a compatible experience with RoS up until they part ways at level 61. That is clearly not the case with Adventure Mode. If Campaign Mode isn't as difficult or rewarding as MP10 is in current-day D3V, then Master difficulty needs to be reworked or rebalanced so that it's at least on par with today's end game. It doesn't mean D3V needs Adventure Mode.
I think we need to take a step back here and remember were talking about a video game here. I'm not sure "justice" and "fairness" are really even on the table here. They came up with a new game mode, and we can all agree it would be really cool if they gave it away for free to people who don't buy the expansion. But I don't think Lady Justice is going to be soaking her blindfold over this one.
Wait, there are people who actually want to play diablo 3, who don't want to buy RoS?
That makes no sense at all.
Why not? Many people preferred to play D2 classic over LoD.You can't screw over people just because they won't buy the expansion, it's not a good practice. It's sleazy, and not something I would normally expect from Blizzard.
No one played D2 classic after LoD came out. That is an outright lie.
This is all just a bunch of whining to try to get RoS stuff 2 weeks/months early.
Actually a lot of people still played classic after LoD came out myself included. There was a good community in classic D2 after LoD came out because there was still quite a few people who preferred classic over LoD. I still play classic Ladder after the resets and there's still a bit of people who play classic as well. In my opinion classic was 10x better than the expansion.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
www.myspace.com/mpotatoes for all your Trans Siberian Orchestra listening pleasure
If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
I suspect in Blizzards mind, the bounties and eventually rifts are the whole point of adventure mode. That is what gives you "guidance" and "direction" of where to go, rather than it truly being there for free roaming like D2 fans might see the feature. Blizzard likely see this as especially important for public games, so everyone is encouraged to play together instead of trying to solo somewhere, and all the more important to focus the much smaller number of D2 vanilla players together. Also consider that the public game pools are not separate, act I-IV vanilla and RoS toons will be playing together, so they would have to make separate vanilla and RoS games, public matchmaking would be split, you couldn't follow your buddies into RoS adventure mode, etc.So having decided to keep bounties out of vanilla, I see some justification for that decision.
Difficulty is a different story however. There ought to be something comprable to the existing MP10, and that's as simple as scaling torment down to lvl 60. Even if the balance baseline at 60 gets somewhat off kilter, there's still no justification for sending people back to the equivalent of MP1.
If you plan on continuing to play D3 post RoS without buying the xpack, then I can't believe you will care so much about the game to be too broken up about what your missing. Its going to be very very odd if you are a "hardcore" vanilla D3 player..
Wait, there are people who actually want to play diablo 3, who don't want to buy RoS?
That makes no sense at all.
Based on the replies already I feel it's pointless for me to mention my thoughts, but I will anyways:
Yes it's a lame "excuse" but you have to buy the expansion. The game is evolving and most if not all will be buying the expansion (who still play the game). There will be no balance for a Vanilla D3 experience because that's not the intent. The Reaper of Souls features have been on video and streams for about a month now. Everybody should know where they stand on the future of the game.
The PTR is not "RoS Beta lite". It is testing the core system changes that are being implemented likely 2 weeks to a month before the expansion. Based on how Blizzard has treated these types of patches with WoW - they likely don't care how awkward or broken the vanilla version will be for two weeks. The PTR is not meant to satisfy your need for new content, so all of these "I quit because of what's on the PTR" people honestly in my opinion are idiots who didn't even intend to buy the expansion anyways. Again, these features have been on display for a few weeks now. You know what you're getting.
Reaper of Souls is the new game. If you don't buy it you don't get most of the new features. Either way, I don't care. The point is the PTR is not "RoS beta lite" and vanilla D3 will no longer be the main focus of balance once everyone has moved on to RoS.
I agree. But I think we also know that, based on his track record of complaining, if they gave adventure mode to D3C the OP would then be whining that he doesn't get bounties.
And then if he gets bounties he'll want the crusader.
And then if he gets the crusader he'll want Act 5.
And then if he gets Act 5 he'll want the mystic.
If you give a mouse a cookie........
I'm not saying they shouldn't put in Adventure Mode, either. I'm just saying that people who are intent on being discontent are going to find a way to be discontent no matter what you do. And, I'll be honest here, I really don't think Blizzard should, at all, be wasting their time trying to appease people who AREN'T going to buy the expansion. If someone is set against buying RoS to the point that they're begging for more free content, I really doubt giving them adventure mode is going to get them to buy it. And then guess what? When we get 2.0.2 and 2.0.3 and 2.0.4 the same people who didn't buy RoS are going to complain that they should be getting some of that content too.
From what I know so far, I'm not going to get the expansion, seems like it can prolong the life of the game so little.
I'll chime in with an agreement that holding difficulty back as Expansion content makes no sense to me. I think I know WHY they're doing it, the last difficulty makes items drop for high level characters, but that's not why we want it for our lowbies, we just want the challenge! I'm hoping they make it available.
I would also like to see the Adventure Mode map made available to D3 players who don't go into RoS. My guess is the only reason it's not is because they made it in such a way that they can't untie bounties from it. I know that seems like a silly thing to say, but look at the UI. People want a scalable UI but they hardcoded it so you can't change it and it would take programming changes to fix it. They probably tied bounties to adventure mode and don't have a simple 'switch' to turn it off. I'm hoping that's the only reason they aren't giving it to us, because it means they might be able to make it happen before launch with some of the engineers working on it.
The CMs have stated that Adventure Mode is still in flux and there's no hard decision on if you'll need RoS or how it will unlock yet. Granted the beta makes it seem like they have made that decision, many of us who've followed Blizzard know they've changed their minds mid beta before.
You KNOW I agree with this.
I just don't trust the general public to set reasonable limits. I have grown so cynical and tired of people who whine about D3 but don't actually play it that I see most of this as scope-creep up until the point that all RoS features are given away as a "free patch." Now, I know you are not personally asking for that, nor would you really take up that position, but I just can't shake the feeling that is exactly why threads like this get started.
It's just my lack of faith in the fact that "Vanilla Needs at least a Few RoS Features" is any sort of limited statement. The way I read that, especially from this community, is basically carte blanche to continue asking for RoS features handed out free of charge. Again, that's probably cynicism, but I tend to prefer YOUR statement which has a very clear scope and is not in danger of becoming a free-for-all as opposed to the open-ended nature of the thread subject. To me there is a difference. I feel your statement is actually logical, measured, and has a direct purpose in terms of "hey, if you do it this way you'll make D3C a lot more playable" instead of the other way which I read as "I want free shit." Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but for me there's a big difference when you keep the scope well-defined.
For all of your infinite wisdom, no doubt meticulously cultivated over those years and without which we would surely be lost, it's surprising to hear you suggest Diablo 3 worked "just fine without re-worked legendaries," since I don't think a day has gone by since the game came out in which the forums were not alight with posts about how shitty legendaries were ruining the game.
And surely, over the course of your long and illustrious forum career, you must've come across even a few of the many posts talking about how shitty the game was because a handful of broken skills made it so that only one or two builds were viable. The game was pretty good without the ubers though
The point is, however, that you and I both know the reworked legendaries and the rebalanced skills were added to D3V so that it would be a compatible experience with RoS up until they part ways at level 61. That is clearly not the case with Adventure Mode. If Campaign Mode isn't as difficult or rewarding as MP10 is in current-day D3V, then Master difficulty needs to be reworked or rebalanced so that it's at least on par with today's end game. It doesn't mean D3V needs Adventure Mode.
I think we need to take a step back here and remember were talking about a video game here. I'm not sure "justice" and "fairness" are really even on the table here. They came up with a new game mode, and we can all agree it would be really cool if they gave it away for free to people who don't buy the expansion. But I don't think Lady Justice is going to be soaking her blindfold over this one.
If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
I suspect in Blizzards mind, the bounties and eventually rifts are the whole point of adventure mode. That is what gives you "guidance" and "direction" of where to go, rather than it truly being there for free roaming like D2 fans might see the feature. Blizzard likely see this as especially important for public games, so everyone is encouraged to play together instead of trying to solo somewhere, and all the more important to focus the much smaller number of D2 vanilla players together. Also consider that the public game pools are not separate, act I-IV vanilla and RoS toons will be playing together, so they would have to make separate vanilla and RoS games, public matchmaking would be split, you couldn't follow your buddies into RoS adventure mode, etc.So having decided to keep bounties out of vanilla, I see some justification for that decision.
Difficulty is a different story however. There ought to be something comprable to the existing MP10, and that's as simple as scaling torment down to lvl 60. Even if the balance baseline at 60 gets somewhat off kilter, there's still no justification for sending people back to the equivalent of MP1.
As I was saying... They've said they'll be free. Greedy, greedy Blizzard........
Uploading a screenshot in case they delete it : http://imgur.com/deoPzSZ