How often will this happen?

  • #41
    If everyone behaved like you, then nothing would change, that's for sure, because you can always find something good with which to be content.
  • #42
    Quote from maka

    you can always find something good with which to be content.

    Which is only partially true. I've defended a lot of stuff about this game from the beginning, but I've spent more time fighting against the AH than I've spent supporting it. I've been unhappy with its presence for a long time, constantly battling people who said they loved it, and I'm ecstatic it's finally going away. One of the healthiest things that could happen to this game, in fact.

    I helped fight for that, you've seen me do it, but apparently that doesn't count. Mind telling me why, since you're now hellbent on psychoanalyzing me?
    Pre AH-shutdown Transcendence/Spirit (Re)gen build, uses only found and crafted gear and gems, can handle MP7.
  • #43
    OP discovers an instance where trading wouldn't be necessary....means trading is unnecessary?

    Pretty dumb....dude......pretty dumb.
    BurningRope#1322
  • #44
    Quote from CardinalMDM

    Again (because I feel I have to restate it, as if I don't, people assume I'm "against" trading, which isn't true)...if the devs said they were taking BOA off of all legendaries tomorrow, and returning Reaper of Souls to a free trade scenario, I'd be 100% fine with it. I don't consider formal P2P traders to be half as cheap as a person who flips two overpriced rares on the Auction House and is able to gear up their characters for MP10 before breaking 2000 elite kills using other peoples 2 billion gold. And trust me, I feel bad that people won't be able to save some perfect item for a friend and give it to them later. That does kinda suck, and hopefully, Blizzard will bend a bit and make it so clans can at least trade more freely, even if it's just via some extra clan stash in town or something.

    In all seriousness, this point needs to be made very loudly, and very clearly, to Blizzard.

    Most of us don't necessarily care about BoA eliminating "mass trading." What we care about, passionately, is that the current implementation is ridiculously penalizing to people who just want to trade a few items with a few friends here and there.... things that DO NOT HURT THE GAME AT ALL.

    We need to emphasize that this idea of collective punishment is not something we're willing to take. Period. End of story.

    I don't think anyone would argue against measures that prevent people from "spending more time trading/flipping than killing monsters." Personally that's not my overarching goal, but if THAT is the casuality in all of this, I think I can live with that. What really gets my nuts twisted up is how Blizzard immediately jumped to the most INELEGENT and MOST RESTRICTIVE solution possible.

    I've said it before, but when you get a flat tire you don't take your car to the junkyard. Yet that's exactly the thought process that leads to decisions like this. AH didn't pan out the way we thought? LET'S FUCKING REMOVE ALL TRADING THEN!

    It's completely paranoid and non-sequitir logic.
    66.0k elite kills :: 1.97m total kills :: p244
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #45
    Quote from ruksak

    OP discovers an instance where trading wouldn't be necessary....means trading is unnecessary?

    Pretty dumb....dude......pretty dumb.

    I like how people have somehow managed to turn my post into something its not. I never once used the terms unnecessary or not needed. I just thought of something regarding the new BoA and thought I'd share it. I guess my first mistake was to even bring up the subject.

    For all the undeserved hostility, I hope BoA does stick around and you touchy whiners can sit and sulk.
  • #46
    Quote from shaggy

    What really gets my nuts twisted up is how Blizzard immediately jumped to the most INELEGENT and MOST RESTRICTIVE solution possible.

    I've said it before, but when you get a flat tire you don't take your car to the junkyard. Yet that's exactly the thought process that leads to decisions like this. AH didn't pan out the way we thought? LET'S FUCKING REMOVE ALL TRADING THEN!

    It's completely paranoid and non-sequitir logic.

    Who says it was an immediate decision? It was, what, 3 months between the AH announcement and Blizzcon? You think in that 3 months they didn't discuss or look at any other options?

    [redacted for snarkiness]
  • #47
    Quote from miles_dryden

    Who says it was an immediate decision? It was, what, 3 months between the AH announcement and Blizzcon? You think in that 3 months they didn't discuss or look at any other options?

    I find it very difficult to believe that a bunch of intelligent adults sat around and discussed this issue for three months and came up with the least elegent and most invasive solution available. If they actually did think about it for that long, I fully expect they'd have come up with a much better compromise.

    The band-aid nature of the solution makes me think they didn't ever discuss it enough to come to a decision as to what was actually best for the game. Because plenty of people on the forums have proposed easily a dozen solutions that would be much better... if they'd just stop being so hard-line about it... you know, compromise.

    This isn't the fucking US Congress here. Compromise is a good thing.

    If half the players want BoA and half the players don't.... it would seem LOGICAL that Blizzard would try something in the middle, and not on one end of the spectrum. LOGIC... which I know escapes people most of the time. It's ILLOGICAL to ignore the wants of half of your playerbase. And that's exactly what makes me think they never actually thought about this. A few focus groups could have easily predicted this situation and that SHOULD have given us a much more middle-ground solution.

    I know... it's unrealistic of me to think they'd even bother focus testing something big like this. Just keep throwing spaghetti at the wall and eventually something will stick!
    66.0k elite kills :: 1.97m total kills :: p244
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #48
    You guys are like a bunch of old women, bitching about stuff that didn't even happen.
    We don't know what the drop rate will be in RoS.
    We don't know whether you will need to trade or not.
    I think BoA is the best thing that could ever happened to D3.
    Getting rushed to lvl 60 then in 20 min having the best gear available was bad gameplay.
    Now you will have to actually work for you gear, just like in all major games around. What is the fun in buying all the gear?
  • #49
    Quote from shaggy

    I don't think anyone would argue against measures that prevent people from "spending more time trading/flipping than killing monsters." Personally that's not my overarching goal, but if THAT is the casuality in all of this, I think I can live with that. What really gets my nuts twisted up is how Blizzard immediately jumped to the most INELEGENT and MOST RESTRICTIVE solution possible.

    I've said it before, but when you get a flat tire you don't take your car to the junkyard. Yet that's exactly the thought process that leads to decisions like this. AH didn't pan out the way we thought? LET'S FUCKING REMOVE ALL TRADING THEN!

    It's completely paranoid and non-sequitir logic.

    Except they didn't. They could simply remove trading completely. Which they didn't.
    As you can still trade with other players who were about, up till 2 hours after the kill.

    It's a compromise that reflects playing with friends and sharing with friends - in a manner that comes to mind of actually playing with yours friends. Not just shoving gear to another person without them having taken part of it.

    The fine line here being actually playing for your loot and simply recieving your loot.

    And if you feel it too restrictive to not be able to just get loot without killing in a aRPG... Well. That would be sorta ironic wouldn't it.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/CrazyPoochification - Let's Play of Eastern Sun/Other stuff
  • #50
    How does everyone think you have to do nothing to get gear from trades? You need something of equal value (or higher) to make a trade. Now make a guess, where does an item with equal value come from?
  • #51
    Quote from CardinalMDM

    I helped fight for that, you've seen me do it, but apparently that doesn't count. Mind telling me why, since you're now hellbent on psychoanalyzing me?

    Mate, please. You're the one that called me a 'freedom fighter' (in a derogatory manner) to start with, so don't even try to twist this around.
    If you stood up to do away with the AH and choose not to do so regarding BoA, that's your prerogative, but don't turn around and try to make us that do look like deranged loonies.
    And that's all I'm gonna say about it.

    Quote from Nitewatcher

    You guys are like a bunch of old women, bitching about stuff that didn't even happen.
    We don't know what the drop rate will be in RoS.
    We don't know whether you will need to trade or not.
    I think BoA is the best thing that could ever happened to D3.
    Getting rushed to lvl 60 then in 20 min having the best gear available was bad gameplay.
    Now you will have to actually work for you gear, just like in all major games around. What is the fun in buying all the gear?

    *Hops in thread*
    *Does not properly read a single post*
    *Proceeds with diatribe*
    *Probably doesn't come back*

    Genius.

    Quote from Doorsfan

    It's a compromise that reflects playing with friends and sharing with friends - in a manner that comes to mind of actually playing with yours friends.

    Sure, if you only have 3 friends, and you're all online at the same time.
  • #52
    Droprates need to be nerfed into the ground.
    Just watch Kongor play with his lvl 270+ on Torment 2/3. He gets 1-4 legendaries per minute.
  • #53
    Quote from Flexy

    Droprates need to be nerfed into the ground.
    Just watch Kongor play with his lvl 270+ on Torment 2/3. He gets 1-4 legendaries per minute.

    I've got news for you: it has (finally) been confirmed by a blue post that drop rates in the beta are set intentionally higher.
  • #54
    Quote from maka

    Quote from CardinalMDM

    I helped fight for that, you've seen me do it, but apparently that doesn't count. Mind telling me why, since you're now hellbent on psychoanalyzing me?
    Mate, please. You're the one that called me a 'freedom fighter' (in a derogatory manner) to start with, so don't even try to twist this around.
    If you stood up to do away with the AH and choose not to do so regarding BoA, that's your prerogative, but don't turn around and try to make us that do look like deranged loonies.
    And that's all I'm gonna say about it.

    To start with? Bro, I tried to have respect for other peoples' points of view, and say that just because I'm in favor of making legendaries BOA, I'd be fine with it if they took that away...and that respect for other peoples' points of view apparently warranted you telling me I was "bending over" TO START WITH! If you don't find that derogatory, then something's seriously wrong...

    Since you've successfully derailed yet another thread, maka, while gleefully flaming everyone else who decides to put their two cents in, I'll attempt to bring this back to the OP's point...

    MetabolicFrolic is basically asking the question if people will end up finding better/different items than what they'd normally try trading for, and if that will cause trading to be considered less necessary. The answer to that is...simply...yes. NOT necessary? No. LESS necessary? Yes. It is 100% possible that a person will seek out one item for a build, find another they didn't expect to come across and go, "wow...I wanted X, but Y is a million times better, I'd rather have this", but continue seeking out whatever they originally intended to get. Will it happen for everyone?

    Absolutely not. But this is undeniably a possibility.

    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from CardinalMDM

    Again (because I feel I have to restate it, as if I don't, people assume I'm "against" trading, which isn't true)...if the devs said they were taking BOA off of all legendaries tomorrow, and returning Reaper of Souls to a free trade scenario, I'd be 100% fine with it. I don't consider formal P2P traders to be half as cheap as a person who flips two overpriced rares on the Auction House and is able to gear up their characters for MP10 before breaking 2000 elite kills using other peoples 2 billion gold. And trust me, I feel bad that people won't be able to save some perfect item for a friend and give it to them later. That does kinda suck, and hopefully, Blizzard will bend a bit and make it so clans can at least trade more freely, even if it's just via some extra clan stash in town or something.

    In all seriousness, this point needs to be made very loudly, and very clearly, to Blizzard.

    Most of us don't necessarily care about BoA eliminating "mass trading." What we care about, passionately, is that the current implementation is ridiculously penalizing to people who just want to trade a few items with a few friends here and there.... things that DO NOT HURT THE GAME AT ALL.

    We need to emphasize that this idea of collective punishment is not something we're willing to take. Period. End of story.

    I don't think anyone would argue against measures that prevent people from "spending more time trading/flipping than killing monsters." Personally that's not my overarching goal, but if THAT is the casuality in all of this, I think I can live with that. What really gets my nuts twisted up is how Blizzard immediately jumped to the most INELEGENT and MOST RESTRICTIVE solution possible.

    I've said it before, but when you get a flat tire you don't take your car to the junkyard. Yet that's exactly the thought process that leads to decisions like this. AH didn't pan out the way we thought? LET'S FUCKING REMOVE ALL TRADING THEN!

    It's completely paranoid and non-sequitir logic.

    shaggy, I've agreed with you on this before. I do think that free-trade within clans is a great idea. Even if they restricted clan size so that people weren't just added to random clans for trading purposes, free-trade within clans would be a great idea, and I'll support it however I can. Point me to where I need to sign my name for it and I will, in big giant block letters, too, so maka can see I'm on the same side about wanting that "middle ground" he keeps begging for, ;-) I'm 100% serious, if there's some thread I have to comment on, some post if I have to click Like for, some petition on change.org, whatever...message me a link, I'll go there and support that.

    Blizzard gets to make legendaries BOA, and people get to trade freely with personal friends. Sounds friggin great to me, :-D

    What I think is paranoid, non-sequitir logic, though, is considering this change a "punishment"...it's "penalizing" to people..."let's fucking remove all trading!"

    But they're not removing all trading. Like I said, they're removing the economy.

    Quote from maka

    Sure, if you only have 3 friends, and you're all online at the same time.

    Right...and THAT becomes your economy then. To me, it's about prioritizing...is it most important to get items specifically from friends? Or to get them at all? This change will absolutely curb cheating to a significant degree. Why bother WORKING HARD at cheating in Reaper of Souls when cheating in some other game will be so much easier? Thus, with more trustworthy people in the community, getting items from other players will be more viable. And playing with friends can involve more monster killing and item drops faster, and less item exchanging. To me, that's six of one, half dozen of the other. Either you're killing monsters with friends and exchanging with them when you can, or killing monsters with other people, making MORE friends and exchanging items with them when you can.

    Like I said...point me to the "free-trade in clans" petition and I'll gladly sign as many times as I'm allowed, to show as much support as possible. No joke, no BS. The two of my personal friends that I play with every week, we can't wait to start a clan of our own, and trading within it would be perfect.

    But if the devs don't go that direction, I still think all this change does is modify peoples' interactions. It doesn't kill them.
    Pre AH-shutdown Transcendence/Spirit (Re)gen build, uses only found and crafted gear and gems, can handle MP7.
  • #55
    Quote from Efrye

    How does everyone think you have to do nothing to get gear from trades? You need something of equal value (or higher) to make a trade. Now make a guess, where does an item with equal value come from?
    They don't. They just parrot it because, like a politician, it's a good "talking point" to say that the people you're arguing against want gear for free.

    @cardinalmdm
    Part of the "good fight" includes standing up to the idiots who keep saying trading RUINS the game (at best, mass trading is what they're talking about, and it should be properly-qualified), the idiots who want to keep saying that trading = gear for free (it's only free gear if you accept handouts from people), etc. The "anti-trading" bloc has done a good job of making it sound like trading is the scourge of the community by demonizing it and operating in pretty severe hyperbole.

    Just look at doorsfan's post. People are going to get gear without working. And he considers what we have a "compromise" even though it's still got roughly half of the people (as best I can tell on the official forums) pretty pissed off. A real "compromise" wouldn't have so many people pissed off... so, to me, calling "bind to game" a "compromise" is pretty insulting and ignorant of the concept of meeting in the middle to have a solution that both parties can tolerate. Clearly we have a solution that isn't tolerable by one party, and it's being labelled a "compromise" as if the other party gave up the world... which they didn't.
    Last edited by shaggy: 12/5/2013 12:59:27 PM
    66.0k elite kills :: 1.97m total kills :: p244
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #56
    Quote from Nitewatcher

    You guys are like a bunch of old women, bitching about stuff that didn't even happen.
    I changed my avatar because of you.
  • #57
    Quote from shaggy
    Quote from Efrye

    How does everyone think you have to do nothing to get gear from trades? You need something of equal value (or higher) to make a trade. Now make a guess, where does an item with equal value come from?
    They don't. They just parrot it because, like a politician, it's a good "talking point" to say that the people you're arguing against want gear for free.

    @cardinalmdm
    Part of the "good fight" includes standing up to the idiots who keep saying trading RUINS the game (at best, mass trading is what they're talking about, and it should be properly-qualified), the idiots who want to keep saying that trading = gear for free (it's only free gear if you accept handouts from people), etc. The "anti-trading" bloc has done a good job of making it sound like trading is the scourge of the community by demonizing it and operating in pretty severe hyperbole.

    Just look at doorsfan's post. People are going to get gear without working. And he considers what we have a "compromise" even though it's still got roughly half of the people (as best I can tell on the official forums) pretty pissed off. A real "compromise" wouldn't have so many people pissed off... so, to me, calling "bind to game" a "compromise" is pretty insulting and ignorant of the concept of meeting in the middle to have a solution that both parties can tolerate. Clearly we have a solution that isn't tolerable by one party, and it's being labelled a "compromise" as if the other party gave up the world... which they didn't.
    Okay...that part I can agree with as well. In fact, I'll admit, it helps better put my own feelings on the matter into better perspective.

    I'm sure at some point during the BOA squabbles this past month, I'm probably guilty of at least one "anti-trading" post...but you're 100% right. Saying "trading ruins the game" and "mass-trading" (i.e., with an economy, which is what I was saying before) should absolutely be specified.

    Trading in D2 was great mostly for the social aspect. D2 was a hard game, and by trading, people were helping each other through the troubles. An aspect that I completely support. However, the part I don't miss with the idea of BOA legendaries is the economy going away, the fact that certain items will be good mostly for trading, but not keeping or using or wielding or equipping.

    All right...I'm not immune to conceding once in a while. Trading by far hasn't ruined any game, it's how people have misused trading that ruined them. Clan-only free-trade is really a perfect compromise that I want to see in the game.
    Pre AH-shutdown Transcendence/Spirit (Re)gen build, uses only found and crafted gear and gems, can handle MP7.
  • #58
    Quote from MetabolicFrolic
    Quote from ruksak

    OP discovers an instance where trading wouldn't be necessary....means trading is unnecessary?

    Pretty dumb....dude......pretty dumb.
    I like how people have somehow managed to turn my post into something its not. I never once used the terms unnecessary or not needed. I just thought of something regarding the new BoA and thought I'd share it. I guess my first mistake was to even bring up the subject.

    For all the undeserved hostility, I hope BoA does stick around and you touchy whiners can sit and sulk.
    Just to refresh your memory, below is your OP in it's entirety.

    It's important to note the "so-what" factor. As in, after reading your OP, I said to myself "So what?"

    If person 'A' finds a helm that truly is good enough to make a given build "better", and his friend couldn't use it, well.....someone else could. A stranger, a new friend down the road. Person 'A' could stash it in case someone he/she know finds use for it. Or, person 'A' could trade it for something they may find useful, given that person 'A' has no foreseeable use for it.

    Killing trades via BoA takes away choices. Less is not more. Less is less. BoA is less.


    New legendaries are gonna be BoA as of right now, and people are worried since it kills high end trading.

    But if there was no BoA how often do you think this is going to happen because of the new drop rates and Loot 2.0?

    Person A:
    Hey B, I was doing Rifts last night and found this sweet helm for your build. Here check it out!

    Person B: Oh thanks A! But I just found a new Bow that totally changed my build. I don't really need it, but thanks anyways.

    I think it would happen all the time...

    BurningRope#1322
  • #59
    lol @ "the 'so-what' factor".
  • #60
    I'm really confused at the people saying BoA is great and it makes sure you can't get rushed or it gets rid of botters..

    I'n what world can you get rushed if the game just comes out and you actually have to find the gear. I feel like the people saying this think the game works as so:

    I leave town kill 1 monster get 1 legendary that is BIS and then will give to my friend so he can be godly in no time while i play for 5 minutes.



    Like really? I don't understand how you get "It prevents rushing" from "YOU HAVE TO WORK FOR GEAR" It's idiotic to lump them together. People are completely ignoring the fact that you still have to work to find something. Normal people wont join a game and see a lower lvl and say "HEY DUDE HERE'S THIS BIS SHOULDER FOR YOU I DON'T NEED IT BUT FUCK IT HERE YA GO!". That isn't to say somepeople wont do that, but are we really going to take away trading from the people who want a real trade (I.E. Something for something of equal value) just cause some people will use it to boost? Which by the way won't happen instantly because remember you have to find gear of equal value, and then find someone in some game that can only host 3 other people who has the exact item you want and wants the item you have... I mean it's reasonable to assume the chances are slim as it stands. Why put in BoA and completely ruin trading and any sort of economy?
    Not even Death will save you from Diablo Bunny's Cuteness!


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