Penalties, death... where is it?

  • #43
    I'm a little unsure if you have seen the current death system in RoS, it is very different from vanilla. There is a system at hand, it's the one that exists right this very moment and that is the answer I expected, I feel like being pushed back to the start and needing to get back to where you was is a perfect punishment for death as the more deaths you have the more time you lose. 1 death, no big deal you just run back maybe lose a couple min but you keep making the same mistake and then it adds up this is a good system of rewarding those who make no mistakes (no time lost) and punishing those who do not learn from there mistakes (lots of time lost). It makes you not want to die, makes you think before you run around and without this type of system what's the point, just run in and zerg.

    Yes it's frustrating, but isn't that the point of it all? Shouldn't you not want to die, shouldn't there be punishment for mistakes or should the game hold your hand and let you faceroll? The fact that people actually want to be given everything and not need to try just disgusts me a little tbh, they are literally asking for any challenge that may exist in the game to be removed because if death doesn't matter then who cares how hard something is you just keep resurrecting until you kill it. This is the game people want it seems, a game where you barely need to watch the screen in order to complete it.

    What I want is a game where I need to focus, I need to concentrate and I get rewarded for playing well. I don't want a game where I don't have to think about my actions or care about what I do, yes if I do I get frustrated by it but it also gives me a sense of getting back there and overcoming the challenge rather than cheesing through it by just resurrecting over and over again and when I do it, when I perfectly run through zones I feel a sense of achievement because I completed that myself, I didn't just have my hand held as I rolled through. But at the same time I am not perfect and I do make mistakes, I don't want to lose everything because of that but I do want some sort of punishment simply to make me want to avoid dieing.

    The only thing I can really say is i'm surprised there are so many people that want an easy game without any challenge and want to simply cheese through content while watching a movie but if there are I vote a 3rd difficult be added. One where there is no punishment for your actions and ure free to run about not caring, one where there is a semi-punishment for your actions and hardcore.

    /e

    Lets look at current beta streams as an example, apposed to how people before would carefully move around and check the affixes on monsters before engaging them now they just charge in simply because if it's something deadly and they die, so what? This is the issue i'm speaking about, it's removed any need to think before you act and all you do is charge in > die > res > die > res > die > kill > move on, is this what people want?
  • #44
    Quote from maka

    Quote from itirnitii

    I would like to see rewards for staying alive rather than punishments for death.


    I can smell the expoits/abuses a mile away.


    Yeah, you're probably right. It would have to be about proper implementation on Blizzard's part.

    I wouldn't mind a system like: kill 'x' amount of monsters without dying receive 5% bonus experience with some kind of cap up to 25%. Necessary? Not really. But I think it would be a good incentive to stay alive that also punishes death indirectly.

    A punishment like 'I have to walk back to the location where I died' is kind of bland to me, because your punishment for dying is being bored and that's counter intuitive in a game that is supposed to be fun.
  • #45
    Well, NV stacks (and loss of one/more stacks upon death) would be a decent system, but it seems like it's going away.
  • #46
    Yeah, if NV stacks were sticking around I'd say losing one on death would be a good solution.
  • #47
    What if some sort of compromise is found?

    Softcore: Existing death penalty.
    Ladder: Stricter death penalties (which would make the race up the ladder more fun/meaningful)
    Hardcore: Existing death penalty

    Ladder could be the middle ground for those not happy with the current punishment schema.
  • #48
    Quote from Fitsu

    Snip (Quote would take up a lot of space)


    I do not recall ever viewing a monsters abilities carefully nor strategically ever in my 500+ hours of Diablo III. While i do see where you are coming from and what your incentive of wanting it - the ideas are sort of counter intuitive.

    Because if you want to feel careful and more strategical - you're asking to slow down a aRPG. A game based on visceral action that requires you to just plow through mobs like a madman and get rewarded for it. While i cannot speak for others then myself - i my self do think that players prefer a leissure form of play compared to a challenging and frustrating sort of play.

    Because frustration and fun are two opposites. I personally don't agree with people who think "But being frustrated first, then relieved at that frustration being gone - is fun! Right?!". That is a sense of progress - but it is the most dense of designs. Because it literally does not itterate fun. It flat admits "You know, we can't make a fun, enticing game - so let's making it tedious and have you relieved that it gets over with". Which is sorta like taking a dump - it doesn't feel good, more then you are relieved from the passing of pain.

    The main offender in this concept being the fact that there is not a lot of skill moment in Diablo. Say whatever you want about that - but there is not. Vortex combined with "Don't stand in shit" affixes, physically blocked by mobs, hit detection from mobs, number scaling in difficulties instead of new attack patterns and formations - Let's face it. It's just a huge grind of numbers being thrown at each other - and they will keep to itterate that if this entire concept of "My numbers beats your numbers" stays. Which it most likely will.

    Beyond this - i think your view point is too extreme. You seem to think that the philosophy is either faceroll or hardcore. And even thought you do seem to be suggesting other things or implying there of - there still are other games which did this sort of reward model/system. It just sort of happens to be that either they will wisen up as time goes and say "Alright, we'll fix it" - or you'll have to come to terms with that your vision does not equal to their vision of the game.

    Which in all due reality - is a possibility, given that i personally think they have stepped away from a lot of the core elements of other aRPGs. Not saying i won't play D3, but it would be hard to claim "It's a copycat".
    http://www.youtube.com/user/CrazyPoochification - Let's Play of Eastern Sun/Other stuff
  • #49
    any penalty they create for a non-hardcore death won't matter. no matter what penalty you come up with, it all just boils down to extra gold or time.

    perma death is the only real penalty and players can have that
  • #50
    Quote from Doorsfan

    The main offender in this concept being the fact that there is not a lot of skill moment in Diablo. Say whatever you want about that - but there is not. Vortex combined with "Don't stand in shit" affixes, physically blocked by mobs, hit detection from mobs, number scaling in difficulties instead of new attack patterns and formations - Let's face it. It's just a huge grind of numbers being thrown at each other - and they will keep to itterate that if this entire concept of "My numbers beats your numbers" stays. Which it most likely will.


    Where this comes into play, I think, is that achieving the numbers necessary to remove the challenges already in place is reachable if you want to go all out for it (Auction House, Friends with items, etc). If you asked a random, off-the-street D3 player, they would say that getting through Inferno and overcoming a lot of nasty 4 affix combos (especially, pre-MP) was quite challenging.
  • #51
    Quote from eman41

    Quote from Doorsfan

    The main offender in this concept being the fact that there is not a lot of skill moment in Diablo. Say whatever you want about that - but there is not. Vortex combined with "Don't stand in shit" affixes, physically blocked by mobs, hit detection from mobs, number scaling in difficulties instead of new attack patterns and formations - Let's face it. It's just a huge grind of numbers being thrown at each other - and they will keep to itterate that if this entire concept of "My numbers beats your numbers" stays. Which it most likely will.


    Where this comes into play, I think, is that achieving the numbers necessary to remove the challenges already in place is reachable if you want to go all out for it (Auction House, Friends with items, etc). If you asked a random, off-the-street D3 player, they would say that getting through Inferno and overcoming a lot of nasty 4 affix combos (especially, pre-MP) was quite challenging.


    That challenge was a investment of time and based on you gear - there of could be bypassed with AH or friends as you mentioned. That is not skill based difficulty tho - it was a challenge gated by numbers that was hard due to just that - numbers, not player skill. Which was my entire point.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/CrazyPoochification - Let's Play of Eastern Sun/Other stuff
  • #52
    it always makes me chuckle when people bring up the death penalties.

    How is walking back 8 seconds soooo much more of a penalty than just rezzing.

    Does it really bother you that much?

    Do you remember how gold repairs were one patch... hundreds of thousands in repairs... people literally quit logging in because you couldn't pick up enough gold to break even... it was awful....

    It's fine the way it is in RoS.... overcomplicating deaths in softcore is silly.... eventually people just over power content and nobody ever dies... it just makes it harder on the little man which in all honesty... just makes people who want harsher penalties out to be huge elitist.
  • #53
    I do agree that frustrating into relief isn't the best model and really all i'm asking for is for the game to be challenging. In a game for people over 12 skill should be relevant and mistakes should be punished, maybe wasting peoples times isn't the best method so what if it was through something else like time trials (the faster you clear, the more reward), healing monsters (if you die a portion of the creatures health is restored), gaining/losing buffs (for each creature killed u gain x amount of MF, upon death lose the buff) etc. There just needs to be something to make me care about if I die or not that's all I ask, death should be something people don't want to happen shouldn't it?

    I just feel there needs to be a reason to not make mistakes, a reason to care and think about what your doing rather than not needing to and simply being able to play the game while not even needing to look at the screen. Let me ask this, with this implemented on streams does the game look fun to you? With people just charging through and if they get to a difficult elite just repeatedly ressing till they kill it before charging through again, is that really what you want to play?

    I want a game where challenge is there, skillful play is rewarded and mistakes punished but perhaps not in a frustrating way so rather than waste peoples time when they die reward there skill when they don't. I want a game where I need to think about what i'm doing and have to consider more than just my dps when I gear, a game where encounters are difficult and avoiding death is actually something i'm trying to do rather than just repeatedly hitting my head into a brick wall until it breaks. What sort of game do you want?
  • #54
    Personally, I feel like the most balanced way to punish deaths would be to have a resource cost tied to how you want to resurrect.

    1 Blood Shard - Corpse Spawn
    30,000 gold - Checkpoint Spawn
    No cost - Revive in Town

    edit :: or something along that train of thought...
  • #55
    ^ this works to, honestly anything to make people not want to die and i'm fine. I just don't think death should be such a trivial thing, it's a core aspect of this game it's the punishment when you fail and that should be something you don't want to happen. I mean, to people who are saying there shouldn't be let me ask why not just give us god mode then? Lets just remove death all together as that will reduce frustration even further?
  • #56
    Quote from Fitsu

    Snip cuz long quote


    I think that one of the sentiments you are missing here is that the game was never designed to keep such a system in mind. You would have to overhaul a lot of things to make this game remotely skill oriented. Given that it's just based around numbers.

    You would have to remove hit detection, remove certain abilities from elites, make physical colission less of a issue, make mobs change pattern based on difficulty - make more dangers avoidable in the form of movement instead of soakable with the face.

    But none of that is happening. The game is moving in the opposite direction. Vortex is getting buffed, you are supposedly to be forced to play more defensively etc. etc.

    I've tried to itterate this point several times - And i do once more ; challenge in the way you want it, will seemingly not happen in this game without a major overhaul or without going HC mode. Deal with it.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/CrazyPoochification - Let's Play of Eastern Sun/Other stuff
  • #57
    Ok yeah, this game can't be challenging anymore from a tactical point of view but it can still reward skillful play in other wise. Basically all I want is for there to be a reason for me to not want to die, no matter what it is. Like OP said right now there is no difference in the difficulties because you can just keep smashing ure head against the elite until it dies. It could be as simply as gain x amount of MF for each creature you kill, upon death lose the stack and then I have a reason to not want to die and i'll be happy.

    I don't think it's a crazy request for there to be a reason to want to avoid death...
  • #58
    Quote from Fitsu

    Ok yeah, this game can't be challenging anymore from a tactical point of view but it can still reward skillful play in other wise. Basically all I want is for there to be a reason for me to not want to die, no matter what it is. Like OP said right now there is no difference in the difficulties because you can just keep smashing ure head against the elite until it dies. It could be as simply as gain x amount of MF for each creature you kill, upon death lose the stack and then I have a reason to not want to die and i'll be happy.

    I don't think it's a crazy request for there to be a reason to want to avoid death...


    There already is a reason. We're just haggling about the price.
  • #59
    Quote from Doorsfan

    Quote from eman41

    Quote from Doorsfan

    The main offender in this concept being the fact that there is not a lot of skill moment in Diablo. Say whatever you want about that - but there is not. Vortex combined with "Don't stand in shit" affixes, physically blocked by mobs, hit detection from mobs, number scaling in difficulties instead of new attack patterns and formations - Let's face it. It's just a huge grind of numbers being thrown at each other - and they will keep to itterate that if this entire concept of "My numbers beats your numbers" stays. Which it most likely will.


    Where this comes into play, I think, is that achieving the numbers necessary to remove the challenges already in place is reachable if you want to go all out for it (Auction House, Friends with items, etc). If you asked a random, off-the-street D3 player, they would say that getting through Inferno and overcoming a lot of nasty 4 affix combos (especially, pre-MP) was quite challenging.


    That challenge was a investment of time and based on you gear - there of could be bypassed with AH or friends as you mentioned. That is not skill based difficulty tho - it was a challenge gated by numbers that was hard due to just that - numbers, not player skill. Which was my entire point.


    You're skipping over the part where you don't have the gear yet. How do you stay alive when the numbers are not in your favor? (i.e. you don't have the gear yet). You can say "it's only gated by numbers" about anything, really.

    It's why bosses in MMOs get easier over time: you get better gear and you need to be less and less precise with your execution. It doesn't mean skill was never a factor, though.
  • #60
    Quote from Catalept

    There already is a reason. We're just haggling about the price.


    What reason? 3 seconds till you insta-res and then continue as you were, that's not a reason. When given the choice of avoiding death or getting a couple hits in dieing, ressing and then continuing to zerg the most efficient way would infact be to just die and that really isn't good. Dieing should almost never be a better option than surviving but right now in RoS it is, right now with the current death system the most optimal way to play is go full dps and zerg stuff down because it's better to get a few hits in and die to the slam than it is to get no hits in and avoid the slam, how is that good? It's actually rewarding those who don't try and punishing those who do.
  • #61
    Quote from Fitsu

    Quote from Catalept

    There already is a reason. We're just haggling about the price.


    What reason? 3 seconds till you insta-res and then continue as you were, that's not a reason. When given the choice of avoiding death or getting a couple hits in dieing, ressing and then continuing to zerg the most efficient way would infact be to just die and that really isn't good. Dieing should almost never be a better option than surviving but right now in RoS it is, right now with the current death system the most optimal way to play is go full dps and zerg stuff down because it's better to get a few hits in and die to the slam than it is to get no hits in and avoid the slam, how is that good? It's actually rewarding those who don't try and punishing those who do.


    I think you'd indulging in hyperbole, there. A 3-second rez-timer plus runback is never desirable, because it's time spent doing absolutely nothing. It's boring and inconvenient. It might be optimal if you're running a full glass-cannon build and moving out of danger loses you massive amounts of DPS, but it's never fun... and you seem to be overestimating just how efficient graveyard-zerging actually is... and if people want to play D3 in a way that's un-fun and inefficient, why stop them?

    I just don't see the case for making the death penalty worse from a gameplay point of view, given that there's already a hardcore mode. I understand from the community point of view that some people don't want people saying they play at difficulty level X unless they 'deserve to be there', whatever that means exactly, but in a game like Diablo, that attitude makes negative sense. People who are obviously well out of their depth can be kicked if the others in their game feel like they're being held back, why insist that Blizzard implements some kind of constructive dismissal mechanism?

    Hardcore already provides the perfect death penalty for those seeking a real challenge, why make a game mode for people who want a little hardcore, but don't want to go the whole way?
  • #62
    Quote from Catalept

    Hardcore already provides the perfect death penalty for those seeking a real challenge, why make a game mode for people who want a little hardcore, but don't want to go the whole way?


    If you haven't picked up on it, the forums are alight with "if you play the game differently from me you are playing it wrong" posts.

    Honestly, I don't understand how anyone could insinuate that dying is more efficient than not dying. For me that defies all logic and I sure haven't seen that as a tactic people are using in streams... so I'm not sure where that thought is coming from.
    66.0k elite kills :: 1.97m total kills :: p244
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
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