Penalties, death... where is it?

  • #1
    What's the point of having different difficulties, when you are practically invincible and constantly awarded?
    There's no challenge. Period. You are able to beat Torment VI champion pack, even if your gear is not good enough. It will take longer, bu u can just respawn (at the same place, where you died!!!) and continue decreasing monsters' health.

    D2 model of death penalty was good, because it THRILLED you to get in trouble and die.
    You were trying to save your character as much as you could, thereby people were investing in Vitality/Armor/Dmg reduction etc.

    That's the thing that D3 lacks. D3's point is to pew-pew and focus on dps, because the only thing to achieve is to stay alive longer (for your comfort) rather than not dying.
    D3 bombards us with rewards.

    There is need for inconvenience, because people like challenges.

    Just take a look how it was in D2:
    You entered a room with hard monsters, suddenly realize you're in trouble and it was like NOPE NOPE. You just fled instead of charging and deal as much damage as you can until you die.
    D2 forced players to play with a strategy (I refer to customization of gear, playstyle, everything).

    Let's assume D3 had the same death penatly as D2 i.e: Losing gold, you're naked and have to retrieve body, and you lose experience.

    Why death penalty would completely change D3 and make it better game?
    1. Difficulties would matter.
    If you'd be just too weak for higher difficulty, you would first seek for better gear. Higher difficulties won't be accessible for weak players. And yes, that's a good thing.
    You'd have to run for your body and if you manage to get the body, good for you, you may try to beat them again. Otherwise, you're just too weak and deal with it. Try to develop your character, increase its survivability.

    2. It would impede trade and economy
    People would seek for particular gear among different players to make their gear better.

    3. High paragon and loss of exp
    The death would be even more scary, because high paragon players would lose the time they sacrificed for exping.
    => again impeding trade and development of character

    4. Strategy
    When I was watching Kongor playing for the first time on Toment VI, while beating Diablo or Adria on Torment II, people flooded in chat "great. now it looks more like Diablo". Why? Because he was RUNNING from the boss and he was scared of it.
    Right now it looks like a normal tank/spank. Just look how people are fighting Azmodan. Can you still remember what are his abilities?
    Remember when you ran all over the Chaos Sanctuary, because you were afraid of Diablo's abilities?
    It look exactly the same when he was playign RoS beta for the first time. Well.. Kongor then discovered bugged Haven's Fury... and the magic disappeared.

    Even sole gear retrieve would have similar effect. Death would matter and people wouldn't like dying in the middle of a bounty run and close the game to get the body back without running.
    Suppose you died when you nearly finished every bounty and you're about to get the reward for doing all.

    It'd like to read your thoughts on this. I think this game lacks this feeling, lacks challenge.
    People only invest in dps and more shiny effects. I liked the dilemma i had to made in D2. I had to sacrifice one thing for another. Test it out and then decide. I proved hereinafter, that death penalty make sense and it would impact positively not only the whole feeling of the game, but encourage to play with tactics, encourage trade, and the most importantly encourage investing in survivability builds and items.

    inb4: No, I won't go play hardcore, because taking into consideration what I've just written, it's not equivalent.
  • #2
    Well... on launch there were enrage timers on elites, elites healed to full if you died and the penalty for dying was an ever increasing time you had to stay dead.

    It annoyed the crap out of the community mainly because all that was so un-Diablo. So they threw it away. I wonder how this spoiled community would react to the Diablo 2 death model.

    I personally didn't like the experience penalty, the whole thrill of retrieving my body was enough for me :) But this wouldn't work in Diablo 3. In D2 our characters could actually damage something with no gear on (especially the casters) and survive a hit, in Diablo 3 when you are naked you are absolutely nothing.
    Pietrak#2537 - changed my battle.tag just for you ;P
  • #3
    Hi everyone,

    usually I am just a passive forum reader, but after reading this Auun's post I even created Curse account in order to sign in and express how much I agree with him on this topic. Yes, at the moment we have small penalty for dying in Diablo 3 - gold, that we have to pay to repair our damaged gear. But it is nothing compared to all that is mentioned above. So players loosing so much thrill and excitement.

    Lets gather as much positive comments or at least start a proper discussion here in order for Blizzard developers to somehow react on this.

    Thank you, and sorry for my poor grammar since english is not my first language.
  • #4

    Well... on launch there were enrage timers on elites, elites healed to full if you died and the penalty for dying was an ever increasing time you had to stay dead.

    It annoyed the crap out of the community mainly because all that was so un-Diablo. So they threw it away. I wonder how this spoiled community would react to the Diablo 2 death model.

    I personally didn't like the experience penalty, the whole thrill of retrieving my body was enough for me :) But this wouldn't work in Diablo 3. In D2 our characters could actually damage something with no gear on (especially the casters) and survive a hit, in Diablo 3 when you are naked you are absolutely nothing.


    You're right.. unfortunately the community is spoiled with being rewarded all the time.
    I have no idea how to introduce challenges once again. Well I just propsed the model from Diablo 2, but it may not be well welcomed by players.

    Enrage timers are actually un-Diablo, that's right. I think the retrieving body would be enough along with gold loss.

    But for Gods.. not respawning in the same place where you died without any penalty!
  • #5

    Hi everyone,

    usually I am just a passive forum reader, but after reading this Auun's post I even created Curse account in order to sign in and express how much I agree with him on this topic. Yes, at the moment we have small penalty for dying in Diablo 3 - gold, that we have to pay to repair our damaged gear. But it is nothing compared to all that is mentioned above. So players loosing so much thrill and excitement.

    Lets gather as much positive comments or at least start a proper discussion here in order for Blizzard developers to somehow react on this.

    Thank you, and sorry for my poor grammar since english is not my first language.


    Thank you so much for your support and agreeing with me :) I appreciate that.
  • #6
    I'd like to get some challenge too on my hands. I'm no MP10 cookie cutter, I run MP6 with my main, but still the death penalty is so non existent that it get's on my nerves. I've tried MP10 (ofc) and I had some problems and deaths with my toon there, but it didn't worry me (!) since there was no penalty for dieing...
    XP loss might be too radical to introduce for the spoiled community at this point, but something harder and more challenging than couple of thousand gold for repairs and spawning at the exact same location would be nice. I remember when pre-nerfs I had problems even on getting to LVL60 and Inferno with my Wiz and had to tune down difficulty to farm money so that I could afford repairs and try again in Hell. That's the stuff that I want. Back then it meant something when you died; It cost gold (a lot!), you had longer respawn times everytime and elites would heal back to full. That combined with the insanity of pre-nerf difficulties made playing challenging and therefor FUN!
  • #7
    I don't like the idea of losing experience upon death...

    But man... I remember back in D2 when we had to run like a freak to get the equipment from body.... It was really fun...
    See a party member die and see his body falling in a splash of blood....and you had to lure monsters away so your friend could get his body back....

    It would be AWESOME to have this system back on D3!

    Running like there was no tomorrow, naked, through thousands of Hell Bovines, praying to not get hit (cuz you would die instantly)... That's a scene I will never forget.
  • #9

    Firstly, http://sd.keepcalm-o...ur-mouth-21.png

    Secondly, you want punishment? Slap yourself really hard after dying, or play hardcore.

    All best!


    It could have been predicted that casuals would whine about introducing some serious gameplay that requires some effort ;)
  • #10

    I don't like the idea of losing experience upon death...

    But man... I remember back in D2 when we had to run like a freak to get the equipment from body.... It was really fun...
    See a party member die and see his body falling in a splash of blood....and you had to lure monsters away so your friend could get his body back....

    It would be AWESOME to have this system back on D3!

    Running like there was no tomorrow, naked, through thousands of Hell Bovines, praying to not get hit (cuz you would die instantly)... That's a scene I will never forget.


    Exactly!

    The thrill was awesome. You had to be flexible, to achieve success. I refer to either gettin your body/gear back or slaying difficult monsters.
  • #11
    Remove resurrection timers, that's my biggest peeve. Another idea; re-introduce instantly placeable town portals. They added a strategic element. Place one if you knew you were heading into a very dangerous pack. They also cut down drastically on time spent running back. If the run back was too long, I'd just swallow the exp loss and save and quit and respawn my body in town.

    Repair costs are something that are more of an annoyance than anything, because as it is, they aren't a meaningful gold sink. There isn't enough variance in repair costs between each individual item, that's what made it so expensive in Diablo 2. It's something I'm on the fence about though. I don't know an eloquent way for them to approach the durability equation. Use materials for repairing? Or large amounts of golds? Use a mix? 50/50 split? I don't know. Is it simplicity, or complexity that is the answer?
  • #13
    How about:

    - Be resurrected by party
    No penalty

    - Resurrect at last checkpoint or town
    Get a debuff, for example -x% dmg for x amount of time
    Whenever you recover your body you'll get rid of the debuff

    -Resurrect at body
    Get a debuff
    You can't get rid of the debuff
  • #14

    How about:

    - Be resurrected by party
    No penalty

    - Resurrect at last checkpoint or town
    Get a debuff, for example -x% dmg for x amount of time
    Whenever you recover your body you'll get rid of the debuff

    -Resurrect at body
    Get a debuff
    You can't get rid of the debuff


    Why even allow resurrecting at your corpse if it's a permanent gimp?
  • #15


    How about:

    - Be resurrected by party
    No penalty

    - Resurrect at last checkpoint or town
    Get a debuff, for example -x% dmg for x amount of time
    Whenever you recover your body you'll get rid of the debuff

    -Resurrect at body
    Get a debuff
    You can't get rid of the debuff


    Why even allow resurrecting at your corpse if it's a permanent gimp?



    Good point.
    First of all extend the resurrection time and maybe add a cost to it instead of a debuff
    Or ofcouse completely remove that option
  • #16
    I can appreciate your perspective but honestly, if you want a death penalty play Hardcore.

    Speaking for myself, I already avoid dying as often as possible because dying is losing and I hate losing. And I do have friends that play really recklessly because the death penalty is a joke as-is, but it's not like they're dying every 10 seconds and continuing anyway. That's just not a very entertaining way to play.

    On the flip side, those friends all play Hardcore as well and they like being able to switch to Softcore to goof around. So while I'm not against adding penalties for death in Softcore, it's all a joke compared to Hardcore. I think you'll be much happier if you switch.
  • #17

    I can appreciate your perspective but honestly, if you want a death penalty play Hardcore.

    Speaking for myself, I already avoid dying as often as possible because dying is losing and I hate losing. And I do have friends that play really recklessly because the death penalty is a joke as-is, but it's not like they're dying every 10 seconds and continuing anyway. That's just not a very entertaining way to play.

    On the flip side, those friends all play Hardcore as well and they like being able to switch to Softcore to goof around. So while I'm not against adding penalties for death in Softcore, it's all a joke compared to Hardcore. I think you'll be much happier if you switch.


    Well.. the thing is that it is not only about death penatly (it is in majority and I do not deny that my post indicates so) but it's more like about introducing challenge to the game.

    I think personally that players are awarded too many times. There are no serious obstacles.
    I think it is in human nature to face challenges and unfotunately we can't find them in Diablo 3.

    Easy facerolling is getting boring in a really short amount of time.
  • #18
    wow nice, I get a warning or some shit over "trolling", when the same reply got me upvotes a couple of days back. Hey zeroTM or whatever the fuck, maybe you had a bad day or something but that's no reason to take it out on a casual like me.

    This blizz bootlickin site won't see me anymore.
  • #19

    wow nice, I get a warning or some shit over "trolling", when the same reply got me upvotes a couple of days back. Hey zeroTM or whatever the fuck, maybe you had a bad day or something but that's no reason to take it out on a casual like me.

    This blizz bootlickin site won't see me anymore.


    How about being nice? a smile or good manners are always repaying.

    P.S it was me who reported you. Have a nice day.
  • #20

    wow nice, I get a warning or some shit over "trolling", when the same reply got me upvotes a couple of days back. Hey zeroTM or whatever the fuck, maybe you had a bad day or something but that's no reason to take it out on a casual like me.

    This blizz bootlickin site won't see me anymore.


    Excellent.
  • #21


    I can appreciate your perspective but honestly, if you want a death penalty play Hardcore.

    Speaking for myself, I already avoid dying as often as possible because dying is losing and I hate losing. And I do have friends that play really recklessly because the death penalty is a joke as-is, but it's not like they're dying every 10 seconds and continuing anyway. That's just not a very entertaining way to play.

    On the flip side, those friends all play Hardcore as well and they like being able to switch to Softcore to goof around. So while I'm not against adding penalties for death in Softcore, it's all a joke compared to Hardcore. I think you'll be much happier if you switch.


    Well.. the thing is that it is not only about death penatly (it is in majority and I do not deny that my post indicates so) but it's more like about introducing challenge to the game.

    I think personally that players are awarded too many times. There are no serious obstacles.
    I think it is in human nature to face challenges and unfotunately we can't find them in Diablo 3.

    Easy facerolling is getting boring in a really short amount of time.


    You can do self-implimented challenges to artifically make the game harder.

    Beyond that, it is none of your business wether other players are "too rewarded" or not - as their experience is not yours to judge nor ultimately affecting you in any way.

    Making the game universally harder due to players themselves who want challenges do not create them - is not a very clever idea of going about that.

    TL;DR - Play hardcore cause YOU want a challenge.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/CrazyPoochification - Let's Play of Eastern Sun/Other stuff
  • #22
    Blizz could also introduce harsher penalties on death starting on higher levels, while lower levels would be safer to goof around. When the repair costs were increased and reverted back, it could have worked, if it didn't include lower levels where the money doesn't drop as much as in higher levels. But pressure was too high from community at that time to start fine tune it ...
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