Always Online Requirment

  • #43
    I enjoying seeing the sentiment that because a few hacks have slipped through the cracks and emulated private servers can be made Blizzard should give up the good fight of trying to keep their game clean and hack free.

    I suppose since banks and other corporations with sensitive data have been hacked at some point or other they too should just dump out their source code while we're at it.

    Flawless logic.
  • #44
    Quote from Fitsu

    I'll say this once more to see if you can read it this time.

    Private Servers Exist.

    The game got leaked or reverse engineered I don't know how but the point is it's out there, Sure I don't have it, but people do, people outside of Blizzard have everything stored on their computers and are able to do what ever they want with it. The people that want to use those tools to make hacks, they have the power to, all bringing out single player does is bring the thing hackers already have to people that arn't hackers.



    You sir, are full of shit.

    Why do you think D2 was packed full of hacks, and remains that way today, yet after over 17 months, D3 has only very rudimentary hacks? Why? Explain yourself.

    People are not privy to the full game files. Period. They are not. If they were, disaster would ensue.
  • #45
    Quote from estereth

    Quote from Shad3slayer

    LOL. I think you confused D2 and D3.


    found a link that actually shouldnt break forum rules
    http://www.twitch.tv...box12/c/2482443
    you are free to choose and continue being delusional, its in human nature


    Again, you're using the flawed logic that because a few hacks slip in using the limited data people have access to, then somehow it's OK to let it all in.

    Absolutely ridiculous.
  • #46
    I think D2 was full of hacks because the games 12 years old. it wasn't full of hacks when it first came out, it had the same level of hacks as D3 does today a few exploits here and there but nothing serious it was really after Warden stopped caring (a good 5 years into the game) that the hacks/exploits started to roar in.

    Also, who here said "we should just give up with hack prevention"? Why are people just making stuff up I don't get it, the reason we use the existence of private servers as a defense for single player being allowed is because for a hacker private server = single player. We're not saying stop hack prevention, we're simply saying at this point in time adding a single player will do no additional damage.

    Ok basically it breaks down into the simple fact the games been out for over a year, it HAS been reverse engineered to the point where single player would give nothing extra to hackers to say it hasn't is simply being stubborn therefore single player can do no additional damage to the game from a hacking point of view. That is fact, I am not saying that they was wrong to not add single player at the start because this did prevent hacks for a while but eventually that method stops working because people get the files they need through reverse engineering it just takes longer.

    The thing that keeps hacks to a minimum is Blizzard are constantly scanning and constantly watching so that if any hacks are happening they find them, ban the users and fix the issue just like how your firewall and anti-virus keeps your computer safe even though viruses exist, Blizzard keeps Diablo 3 reletively hack free using the same methods even though hacks exist.

    Therefore with this in mind the only remaining reason is because they want to gain as much information from the player base as possible in order to improve the game and while this isn't a terrible reason in my opinion it's not enough to negate all of the benefits one gains from a single player mode.
  • #47
    Quote from Fitsu

    I think D2 was full of hacks because the games 12 years old. it wasn't full of hacks when it first came out, it had the same level of hacks as D3 does today a few exploits here and there but nothing serious it was really after Warden stopped caring (a good 5 years into the game) that the hacks/exploits started to roar in.

    Also, who here said "we should just give up with hack prevention"? Why are people just making stuff up I don't get it, the reason we use the existence of private servers as a defense for single player being allowed is because for a hacker private server = single player. We're not saying stop hack prevention, we're simply saying at this point in time adding a single player will do no additional damage.

    Ok basically it breaks down into the simple fact the games been out for over a year, it HAS been reverse engineered to the point where single player would give nothing extra to hackers to say it hasn't is simply being stubborn therefore single player can do no additional damage to the game from a hacking point of view. That is fact, I am not saying that they was wrong to not add single player at the start because this did prevent hacks for a while but eventually that method stops working because people get the files they need through reverse engineering it just takes longer.

    Therefore with this in mind the only remaining reason is because they want to gain as much information from the player base as possible in order to improve the game and while this isn't a terrible reason in my opinion it's not enough to negate all of the benefits one gains from a single player mode.


    Do you honestly believe that the implementations of D3 on the private severs are line for line the same exact code?
  • #48
    I think it's close enough that hackers aren't going to gain anything more from just having the real thing, there still able to play around with the close-to-real thing and work out how to break and hack the core systems so it wouldn't be very hard to translate that over the real thing. The difficulty comes from doing it without Blizzard noticing, if u search long enough ull find videos of people using various hacks on Diablo 3 from bots, to dupes, to teleportation etc. the hacks already exist it's simply that Blizzard are quickly banning + fixing.
  • #49
    Quote from Tralfamadore

    Quote from Fitsu

    I think D2 was full of hacks because the games 12 years old. it wasn't full of hacks when it first came out, it had the same level of hacks as D3 does today a few exploits here and there but nothing serious it was really after Warden stopped caring (a good 5 years into the game) that the hacks/exploits started to roar in.

    Also, who here said "we should just give up with hack prevention"? Why are people just making stuff up I don't get it, the reason we use the existence of private servers as a defense for single player being allowed is because for a hacker private server = single player. We're not saying stop hack prevention, we're simply saying at this point in time adding a single player will do no additional damage.

    Ok basically it breaks down into the simple fact the games been out for over a year, it HAS been reverse engineered to the point where single player would give nothing extra to hackers to say it hasn't is simply being stubborn therefore single player can do no additional damage to the game from a hacking point of view. That is fact, I am not saying that they was wrong to not add single player at the start because this did prevent hacks for a while but eventually that method stops working because people get the files they need through reverse engineering it just takes longer.

    Therefore with this in mind the only remaining reason is because they want to gain as much information from the player base as possible in order to improve the game and while this isn't a terrible reason in my opinion it's not enough to negate all of the benefits one gains from a single player mode.


    Do you honestly believe that the implementations of D3 on the private severs are line for line the same exact code?


    I said it in my first post on page 1. He could be told this 1000 times by 1000 different people and he won't care. He's not here to understand why he's wrong. He's here to spread garbage and troll his agenda. Most likely a hacker/duper himself looking to bring his foul shit to D3.

    Either that or he's just not very smart.
  • #50
    Quote from Fitsu

    I think it's close enough that hackers aren't going to gain anything more from just having the real thing, there still able to play around with the close-to-real thing and work out how to break and hack the core systems so it wouldn't be very hard to translate that over the real thing. The difficulty comes from doing it without Blizzard noticing, if u search long enough ull find videos of people using various hacks on Diablo 3 from bots, to dupes, to teleportation etc. the hacks already exist it's simply that Blizzard are quickly banning + fixing.


    If I am not wrong, botting doesn't require active knowledge of the source code and duping was in part done by Blizzard by restoring accounts.

    While, yes emulated servers exist, this is where I think you are absolutely wrong, I don't believe they have anywhere near complete source code. Take a look at both Path of Exile and Diablo 3, both games that require you to be online to play. Both games have very rudimentary level "hacks" going on in them. Now, conversely look at Torchlight, which is both an online and single player game, where modding tools were also released with the game. Take a look at the integrity of the Torchlight vs. PoE and D3, you see a drastic difference.
  • #51
    TBH ruksak I really don't get why u keep replying, every message you write is just flame and insults with no actual additional information whilst others have linked proof of hacks, proof of private servers and actual given constructive responses. You call others trolls who refuse to admit there wrong while having 0 knowledge on the thing your talking about and no constructive input in any message you write.

    If you have some form of proof that adding a single player mode at this stage will greatly increase the amount of hacks, or some sort of proof that the current offline version of the game hackers have isn't enough for them to get what they need or well anything useful at all to bring to this conversation then feel free but otherwise please stop spamming your hateful flame and let us have a civilized conversation.
  • #52
    Quote from Fitsu

    TBH ruksak I really don't get why u keep replying, every message you write is just flame and insults with no actual additional information whilst others have linked proof of hacks, proof of private servers and actual given constructive responses. You call others trolls who refuse to admit there wrong while having 0 knowledge on the thing your talking about and no constructive input in any message you write.

    If you have some form of proof that adding a single player mode at this stage will greatly increase the amount of hacks, or some sort of proof that the current offline version of the game hackers have isn't enough for them to get what they need or well anything useful at all to bring to this conversation then feel free but otherwise please stop spamming your hateful flame and let us have a civilized conversation.


    Truthfully you have zero "additional evidence". Saying you "think it is close enough" really is nothing more than conjecture on a topic with evidence that clearly points in the other direction.
  • #53
    Quote from Tralfamadore

    If I am not wrong, botting doesn't require active knowledge of the source code and duping was in part done by Blizzard by restoring accounts.

    While, yes emulated servers exist, this is where I think you are absolutely wrong, I don't believe they have anywhere near complete source code. Take a look at both Path of Exile and Diablo 3, both games that require you to be online to play. Both games have very rudimentary level "hacks" going on in them. Now, conversely look at Torchlight, which is both an online and single player game, where modding tools were also released with the game. Take a look at the integrity of the Torchlight vs. PoE and D3, you see a drastic difference.


    The thing is the comparison your making isn't valid because Torchlight was designed like that, just like how the console version of Diablo 3 was. Torchlight had next to no-anti cheat and allowed players to mod the online version, the game wasn't even stored on there servers it was local servers when players went online so there was no hacking involved at all cheating in torchlight online took the same effort as cheating in single player so it's just not something you can compare. From an integrity point of view torchlight isn't riddled with hacks because it has a single player mode because the online mode isn't server side and they have taken no action to keep the game protected.

    Diablo 2 had a SP mode and yet that remained hack free pretty much up until Blizzard stopped caring and let people hack, WoW has private servers yet that game is practically hack-free yes there are a few hacks but they are far from rampant. These are the things you compare it to and they are proof that some form of offline mode doesn't do nearly as much damage as some seem to believe and any damage it would have done is now passed as the game has been out for over a year and hackers have been hard at work to break it, they are beyond needing the code from a single player mode.

    Quote from Tralfamadore

    Truthfully you have zero "additional evidence". Saying you "think it is close enough" really is nothing more than conjecture on a topic with evidence that clearly points in the other direction.


    We've proven that the game got hacked anyway, that offline modes exist for hackers to abuse anyway, that games with a offline modes lasted a very long time just as hack free as Diablo 3 has been and that the only real true remaining defense against hackers is Blizzard not the lack of information hackers have at there disposal.

    What is this evidence that clearly points in the other direction?
  • #54
    Quote from Fitsu

    TBH ruksak I really don't get why u keep replying, every message you write is just flame and insults with no actual additional information whilst others have linked proof of hacks, proof of private servers and actual given constructive responses. You call others trolls who refuse to admit there wrong while having 0 knowledge on the thing your talking about and no constructive input in any message you write.

    If you have some form of proof that adding a single player mode at this stage will greatly increase the amount of hacks, or some sort of proof that the current offline version of the game hackers have isn't enough for them to get what they need or well anything useful at all to bring to this conversation then feel free but otherwise please stop spamming your hateful flame and let us have a civilized conversation.


    Log on to Diablo 2 and there's my proof.
  • #55
    Fitsu, there really isn't much more I can say about it. if you aren't willing to accept that people are having an easier time hacking Torchlight 2 because there is an off-line mode and their modding tools provide insight on the underpinnings of how the game works then the conversation just isn't worth having and we can agree to disagree.

    And what points in the other direction? I don't know, pretty much every client side game that is riddled with hacks no more than 3 hours after it launches versus the level of effort involved in every other on-line only game mentioned above and how they are much, much, much cleaner in terms of "hacking".
  • #56
    So your proof to the fact single player causes online mode to end up broken is a 13 year old game with no working anti-cheat system? Your really grasping at straws if that's the best you can get.
  • #57
    Quote from Tralfamadore

    Fitsu, there really isn't much more I can say about it. if you aren't willing to accept that people are having an easier time hacking Torchlight 2 because there is an off-line mode and their modding tools provide insight on the underpinnings of how the game works then the conversation just isn't worth having and we can agree to disagree.

    And what points in the other direction? I don't know, pretty much every client side game that is riddled with hacks no more than 3 hours after it launches versus the level of effort involved in every other on-line only game mentioned above and how they are much, much, much cleaner in terms of "hacking".


    You don't seem to understand the difference between "client-side" and "server-side", this is the thing that prevents online games from getting hacked. The fact the files are stored on Blizzards servers and arn't accessible by players is what prevents the game being hacked, the reason Torchlight 2 or any client side game is riddled with hacks is because the files are client side and thus accessible, it's easy to hack a game when you don't have to work out how to access the secure files...

    People have an easy time hacking torchlight 2 because there is no secure online mode, not because there is an offline mode, think about it please. Look at Diablo 2 again, in offline mode you have tons of programs to alter your stats, mods, crazy items etc... Yet none of that existed on the Bnet because ultimately all it takes to hack a single player game is to change a few numbers on your files the real challenge is working out how to hack through Blizzards protection which is the difference, sure people worked out how to do some hacks on bnet like FCR hack and bots but that's due to Warden being turned of and people learning how to work around Blizzards protection something that would be even more challenging in D3 it has nothing to do with the game having a single player mode.
  • #58
    Where's Asthon Kutcher? I feel as if I am getting Punk'd right now.
  • #59
    Quote from Fitsu

    People have an easy time hacking torchlight 2 because there is no secure online mode, not because there is an offline mode, think about it please.


    People have an easy time hacking TL1/2, Diablo 1/2 because the SERVER FILES were stored on the local computer. How it works is easy:

    You have a client. It connects to a server. In the single-player version of D1/2 and TL1/2 the game actually starts up a copy of the server software on your machine and connects to localhost instead of some IP address out on the internet. This means that any hacker can take the server files and decompile them. This is what leads to hacks: people knowing EXACTLY how the server operates.

    Compare D1/2 and TL1/2 to D3 and PoE and the difference should be obvious.

    As to bots, as best I know, current bots interpret screen pixels. Should this be the case, it means that there is NOTHING Blizzard can do to proactively stop bots, other than learn what they're doing and sending out ban waves. Detecting the pixels on the monitor doesn't access game files or data in RAM (and therefore is undetectable by Warden) and no amount of DRM can prevent a program from reading the pixels on your monitor. So long as it's possible to play a game by interpreting the pixels on the screen, botting will be possible.

    Back to "hacking" though. The reason you don't see online character trainers is because it's pretty difficult, even for a hacker, to convince the game that you're able to violate basic rules. For example, in D2, a level 50 character could only have so many statistic and skill points. There's no way to tell the server that your level 50 character had 1000 skill points. But, you are able to convince the server that items dropped that didn't drop, because that's a single event. And that's basically what hackers/dupers were busy doing: convincing the server that items dropped which didn't actually drop. How did they do that? By understanding the client-server protocol and observing server code to see the weaknesses which would allow those things to happen.

    If you can't see the server code (because it's not running on your local machine) then this becomes basically impossible. This also lends credence to the fact that "D3 private servers" aren't really D3 servers. If they were, then a hacker could easily analyze their code and use that to have full working knowledge of the Blizzard servers. But they haven't, which would basically mean that these "private servers" are not operating off the same codebase that the Blizzard servers are.
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  • #60
    Thanks shaggy for the first real informed response, I feel like I learnt something from that. Now i'm wondering your saying you need to be able to see the server code and without that information there would be no way of understanding how to trick the server (which is what I was trying to say earlier but didn't put it in such an elegant way). The thing I don't understand is why would you be able to see server code if your only running the game in a single player mode? Does it still need to run server-side code even if your not actually running a server, just a single player client? If you were to try and set it up through a LAN game would that require sever code to be running?
  • #61
    Quote from Fitsu

    The thing I don't understand is why would you be able to see server code if your only running the game in a single player mode? Does it still need to run the code even if your not actually running a server, just a single player client? If you were to try and set it up through a LAN game would that require sever code to be running?


    In order to make development simpler, the single-player and online/LAN clients are the same thing. This allows the developers to only have to maintain and test one "version" of the game.

    What that means, though, is that if you are playing a single-player game you still need to connect to a server. This server runs on your machine instead of the Blizzard servers. If you are playing a LAN game then one of the players acts as a server (and runs the server code as well as their client code) and the other players connect to that.

    What most people do not understand is, because developing and maintaining two versions of the game would be very costly (and significantly slower) and would result in bugs present in one version but not the other, even when you're playing single-player you are running a copy of the server on your machine. This is so the client code is no different. The ONLY difference between a single-player game and a LAN/online game, technically-speaking, is that your client is instructed to connect to "localhost" instead of your friend's IP address or a Blizzard IP address.

    In layman's terms, the client ALWAYS requires a server to connect to in order to prevent the need to develop and maintain multiple client versions.
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  • #62
    Ah, that's the vital bit of information that I didn't know I had no idea that single player games still used server code to run and therefore couldn't understand the reasons as to why having a single player mode would cause hacking to run rampant in the online version I thought that it was 2 different versions but what you say makes sense as naturally if people were to be able to get a hold of the server information they would be able to hack into the online version much easier. Thanks for clearing that up I agree that a single player mode would damage the online experience then.

    /Thread :D
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