Will RoS end-game be worse than D3V?

  • #21
    Quote from Flexy

    -too many drops
    -too high droprates for legendaries and gems
    -as a result, people like KingKongor can faceroll Torment 6 in under a week after starting the beta

    I love the new legendaries, but they are too easy to get. WAY too easy. Legendaries should drop like once every 20 hours.
    The casuals who don't like it can go play Path of Exile instead.

    I'm mega-hyped for RoS and will buy a digital copy on the day they become available, but Blizzard has to balance this game for months before it is ready.


    You dont get it, do you?
    The majority of player base are CASUALS bro, like in every other game...
    This is the primary target group, which needs to be satisfied from the game, so they are keep playing it...
    How this will happen?
    Well with amazingly high legendary items drop rate so ppl keep looting shiny pixels and try new builds, so they wont get bored and low crafing fees...
    Lets face it...
    The game needs to be easy and REWARD GREATLY the players, who are playing it...
  • #22
    Quote from RITthePALLY


    So you are talking about how good items are in PoE... then link an item that is ultimately.... main stat, vitality, sockets, flavor text, that gives energy regen... aka resource regen lol....

    How is that totally unique and awesome compared to d3... it's the exact same thing.



    PoE's endgame is different to D3's. It's more about creating new characters than improving the ones you have, similar to D2.
    Usually there is a point at which you finish a character and then start something new... THIS is the endgame.

    In D3 we only have the grind and the only reward and incentive is more grind. Even PoE hasn't found a proper solution to such an endgame. If you grinded a path of exile character for 500 hours like people do in D3 it would be even more boring than D3.
  • #23
    Quote from Shad3slayer

    Uhm. Just the first 3 properties on that helm are incredibly strong and better than anything in D3. It's the equivalents of "Grants lvl xy aura when equipped" that was in Diablo 2. Why are properties like this not in RoS? Like, "grants Mantra of Evasion when equipped" on a Barbarian belt, or "Chance to cast Smoke Screen when hit" on item that all classes can use.


    They do exist, see vigilance, granted not 'all' classes can use the item, but 5/6 ain't bad.



    And there are others, just don't have the links to hand atm.
  • #24
    What a shame that both the weapon and Inner Sanctuary are utter crap.....
    Not to mention 2-handers in general.
  • #25
    ^exactly. I saw all legendaries found in beta so far (at least all the ones posted here/ on incgamers), I know each one has some kind of "unique" "build-changing" property but the thing is they are CRAP. By posting that picture you just kinda reinforced my points :P That item is as generic as it gets (like almost all legendaries posted so far) and completely the same as others, except the orange property which is let's face it useless.
  • #26
    Quote from Shad3slayer

    ^exactly. I saw all legendaries found in beta so far (at least all the ones posted here/ on incgamers), I know each one has some kind of "unique" "build-changing" property but the thing is they are CRAP. By posting that picture you just kinda reinforced my points :P That item is as generic as it gets (like almost all legendaries posted so far) and completely the same as others, except the orange property which is let's face it useless.


    Yeah, they shouldn't call them legendary, rather "template". They don't have balls to make real class specific legendarys that are outstanding. Instead they try to lure people with those orange legendary affixes.
  • #27
    I've seen Vigilance save Kripp's life while playing on a few occasions.

    It's a pretty amazing defensive tool. For a WD using Firebats, it would be pretty useful. Also, there is a legendary that boosts damage to knock backed enemies by 25%, so using that with this polearm would give you some nice DPS increase. Whether it is actually powerful enough to work with is hard to say, but the synergy is cool.

    There are some very bad affixes, but I don't really see that as one of them. You have 13 item slots, not every one of them has to blow up the game every time it procs or even completely change your build around.

    The legendary affixes are fine, the real issue is that rares become useless pretty damn easily. End game would be improved if you had some reason to look out for rares once legs started to fill up your gear slots. Perhaps if they had a chance to roll certain affixes higher, or something. That way you either take an item special to your build/play style in that slot, or you get a little more stats out of a rare.

    Of course, D2 LoD didn't have many slots where you actually had competitive rares, and that worked out okay for people.
  • #28
    Quote from maka

    What a shame that both the weapon and Inner Sanctuary are utter crap.....
    Not to mention 2-handers in general.


    They aren't crap if you play Crusader. And right now I'm pretty sure the passive which lets him use a 2h weapon in 1 hand is going to be used in most (implying there will be more than one) end-game builds.
  • #29
    Quote from Shad3slayer

    Uhm. Just the first 3 properties on that helm are incredibly strong and better than anything in D3. It's the equivalents of "Grants lvl xy aura when equipped" that was in Diablo 2. Why are properties like this not in RoS? Like, "grants Mantra of Evasion when equipped" on a Barbarian belt, or "Chance to cast Smoke Screen when hit" on item that all classes can use. The only "innovation" in RoS is Crushing blow, which is reportedly even more unbalanced than anything we've had so far.

    The PoE item I linked has FLAVOR. It's incredibly powerful, but at the cost of not using chest armor. It gives 3 nearly max level effects to any skills you have equipped in it. That's incredibly strong. Plus flavor in the form of Extra Gore. Plus defense in the form of block chance. Now lets take a look at some of the stuff you mention as "strong points" of RoS itemization:


    Oh please. That helm isn't that amazing. The first three properties can't even exist in D3 because there is no such gem-system, though that is a nice thing about PoE. But if you think about it in PoE, removing your chest armor doesn't only mean removing stats, it means removing your main skill with up to 5(!) properties of your choice attached to it, not just three fixed ones + how many sockets it might still have (I suppose 3 would be max on a helm). So there's a huge drawback.
    Next thing, even if it were as strong as some of those dupewords in D2 that gave bonus auras, that's something most players explicitely do not want in D3. Auras should have been restricted to Paladins and Teleport to Sorcs, giving everyone everything wasn't good.
  • #30
    Quote from IgnatiusReilly

    You have 13 item slots, not every one of them has to blow up the game every time it procs or even completely change your build around.


    Except that this is exactly what Blizz promised us with their great itemisation overhaul.
  • #31
    Quote from Twoflower

    Quote from IgnatiusReilly

    You have 13 item slots, not every one of them has to blow up the game every time it procs or even completely change your build around.


    Except that this is exactly what Blizz promised us with their great itemisation overhaul.


    Exactly?

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9793109384?page=4#75

    He says a lot in this post about what they are trying to do, and none of it really says they want every item to completely wreck the game. There's a nuance to it.
  • #32
    Quote from Twoflower

    Quote from IgnatiusReilly

    You have 13 item slots, not every one of them has to blow up the game every time it procs or even completely change your build around.


    Except that this is exactly what Blizz promised us with their great itemisation overhaul.


    I'm not sure Blizz ever promised every leg/set would be build changing/defining :S.

    As well as 2H above you also have the swords like Doombringer with block chance on them etc. which will probably make a good HC weapon, could even use a shied as well.

    Not saying that the items seen so far are perfect, and it has been a little underwhelming, but some of the criticism in this thread is a bit harsh and quite lot of the affixes have promise with certain builds/play styles, especially those on class specific items which we don't seem to have seen too many of as of yet.
  • #33
    Quote from maka

    What a shame that both the weapon and Inner Sanctuary are utter crap.....
    Not to mention 2-handers in general.
    If only it was the kind of enchants the mystic could provide...
    "A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever." Shigeru Miyamoto-nintendo boss

    "I think it's hilarious because gamers won't be getting watered down anything.
    This is flat out Diablo 3." -Anonymous discussing the console version
  • #34
    Quote from Shad3slayer

    ^I already answered that a few posts up, but I'll c/p it for your convenience

    Uhm. Just the first 3 properties on that helm are incredibly strong and better than anything in D3. It's the equivalents of "Grants lvl xy aura when equipped" that was in Diablo 2. Why are properties like this not in RoS? Like, "grants Mantra of Evasion when equipped" on a Barbarian belt, or "Chance to cast Smoke Screen when hit" on item that all classes can use.

    The PoE item I linked has FLAVOR. It's incredibly powerful, but at the cost of not using chest armor. It gives 3 nearly max level effects to any skills you have equipped in it. That's incredibly strong. Just imagine a Legendary in Diablo 3 that would enable you to use a skill with 3 additional runes enabled. Plus flavor in the form of Extra Gore. Plus defense in the form of block chance. However Blizzard has shown a severe lack of imagination in this department sadly and has created 200 more generic legendaries, maybe 5-10 of those actually being useful and unique.


    Well Some items/sets in d3 RoS have added effects like "use all rune effects for X ability" as well as "use X ability with no cooldown" or "summon X until it dies" intead of it just being a very long CD it becomes a perma pet.

    Things like an amulet that grips all the enemies around you is a literal game changer in d3. Rings/set bonuses that give all 4 base auras at a time are also on the riduclous list.

    The synergy of items that give health globes on kills + class abilities of the WD that give more health globe drops + an item that has every health globe you pick up explode for X% damage. Makes for a devastating combo.
  • #35
    Quote from maka

    What a shame that both the weapon and Inner Sanctuary are utter crap.....
    Not to mention 2-handers in general.


    The new Inner Sanctuary is actually quite nice maybe even OP with high attack speed

    http://i.imgur.com/L2t7uKO.png
  • #36
    Shad, i see the hungry for a Diablo game in your words and i feel the same!

    but they dont know how to make a decent ARPG... the diablo franchise died long ago. =(

    and guess what!? RoS will be exactly what it is right now in the beta and 1.5 years later they will come with reaper of wallets, the second expansion with our beloved PVP! YES! PVP 4 OR 5 YEAR AFTER RELEASE!

    AND WE WILL PAY FOR IT!

    because we have that dream... a dream to play a game so amazing like diablo 2 was.

    and they know that.
  • #37
    Quote from Shad3slayer

    But I've read quite a few comments (and even an article on diablo.incgamers) from which it seems that the paragon leveling is way too slow. For example an article I read stated that it took the guy 4 weeks! of playing to get a single paragon lvl (he was plvl 150 or so).


    so who has been able to play for 4 weeks now? even f&f beta is running for just a week now. and looking at xp charts it takes around 220mil xp to get from 150 to 151. this is the about the same amount as it is in vanilla to get fom 91 to 92. so even if somebody was able to play the game that long, it must have been for 10 minutes per day or so.

    i think the amounts are okay as they are right now, of course some fixing is still needed, but paragon 2.0 seems to be quite cool as it is right now.

    i like most of the "new" items or item effects. there are still many legendaries that didnt change or have crappy effects compared to others but im pretty sure that some or most of them are still subject to change.

    i've been watching kingkongor and archon streaming RoS now for several days and dificulty and droprates will definitely receive changes until release. they could boost all legendaries a bit more and multiply the droprate by 0.1 or something around that and it should feel better i think.

    i have to agree that the dificulty has to be settled higher, either by adding even more difficulty settings (which i would prefer) or by increasing the ones that are avaible right now. kingkongor is simply rushing through torment 6 at the moment and even for an experienced player like him who spends a lot more time playing than the average player, that was too fast and too easy.

    i'm still pretty hyped about RoS, enjoying tons of streams and considering that it's still in an extremely early beta stage i am quite confindent that those things will get fixed before release. maybe not all and/or maybe not to 100% but they will definitely improve further
  • #38
    I think they just lack creativity and imagination, or, the game engine is very limited and adapting it would cost a lot, so they choose to keep it simple, and boring.
  • #39
    Agree with several points.

    I think what I'm most worried about (from watching streams) is the pace at which Torment VI becomes easy. When thinking about RoS, I mainly look forward to working through the difficulties with friends. To me, a character will feel somewhat complete once I can finish a Rift with relative ease on Torment VI. I want this to take time though, a couple hours a day for maybe two months or so might be perfect. I'd be happy to then focus on a new class, and occasionally come back to mess around with "finished" ones. That's over a year of gameplay right there.

    As far as items, I'm generally happy with what I see. The drop rates are way too high though. They could also be more "build changing" I suppose. The PoE item you linked seems to mainly just be "powerful" like you said, but not actually that build changing. I like the affix that doesn't allow you to wear a Chest piece though. There should be multiple legendary affixes on each legendary and there should be negative affixes as well. It would make choosing which ones to use more meaningful.

    I think we should be able to trade more than they are planning. I like the idea of third party sites no longer functioning, but not being able to trade with friends is huge to me. What if we're allowed to trade with anyone who we're already friends with when an item drops? That way you couldn't friend someone to make a trade, but could always trade with your real friends list. A time limit could be added if needed (1 week?).

    Lastly, rifts. They seem much better than current farming for sure. But they need to be more interesting and require more thought/planning. I like the idea of random affixes being attached to Rifts. The affixes could provide very strong motivation to try new builds and items to attack them with. The more difficult the affixes, the higher the rewards of the Rift. They need to be "build motivating" though, like:
    (To prevent you from abusing certain skills)
    -Monsters Reflect 1-99% (specific) Elemental damage.
    -Monsters have 1-99% (specific) Elemental resistance.
    -Monsters are twice as Fast and can't be Stunned.
    (To make item choices more interesting)
    -Monsters are immune to Critical Strikes.
    -(specific gems) have no effect in your gear.
    -Wielding a 2h (or 1h) weapon reduces your Movement Speed by 1-50%.

    Sorry for all the text. Just seemed like a decent place to discuss more ideas. Endgame "does" need help, I think all of these topics (difficulty of torment, trading with friends, negative affixes on legendaries, and Rift affixes) could be implemented relatively easily.
  • #40
    I think what I'm most worried about (from watching streams) is the pace at which Torment VI becomes easy

    For the top 0.5% to 1% of the playerbase, with a significant head start, in a beta. I don't think Blizzard has released stats on how many players complete which monster power, but I would bet that the middle of the bell curve is at MP1 or MP2 with maybe 1 Paragon character over 50...maybe.

    No game can hold back the best gamers, it just isn't possible in today's gaming landscape.
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