But it's also LESS FUN to go months, and months, and months without the drop you're really looking for and have no way at all to rectify that.
Shaggy...
I'm glad you kept up with this thread, and said this, because with all due respect...it seems like this is the best argument anyone has to support them removing the BOA aspect from legendaries and sets.
And I'm not saying that because it's a bad argument, it's a good argument. However, personally, it's the only really great argument.
From what I've read, there will likely be other avenues to get legendaries, for instance, turning in Bounties (or a certain amount) may offer a selection of legendaries as a reward. So unless you're looking at Loot 2.0 and the expansion on the whole through the same perspective as CURRENT D3 loot acquisition goes, when the expansion all goes live, you have a far better chance of getting a legendary you want than you do now.
I do agree that this would hinder peoples' ability to really hone in on a specific build, but the way various legendaries can affect builds, I think Blizzard would rather people NOT steer toward specific builds, and instead, see what they can do with the combinations of legendary effects they get dealt. In regard to overall build diversity, it seems like a model that encourages people to think outside the box, and say, "yeah, I'm kind of a hybrid/this and that/etc. kinda build, as opposed to "gosh, I'm NEVER going to max out my DoT/AoE/CC, I suck!!"
In regard to the social aspect, again, you've made a good point...it would be a shame that you can't save an item indefinitely at least for a friend. Even if they made it so you can trade legendaries with friends indefinitely, but strangers only get a small window, I think that'd be enough of a compromise. I've seen you mention wanting to save items for friends over and over. And I think if a player is the type to want to help people out, then why not add people to their friends lists to open up trading? Honestly, it'd just mean that people would have to decline friend requests more often is all.
Overall, though, the social aspect is still prevalent with a 2 hour trading window, it just doesn't mean you can save up tons of legendaries and hand them out to whomever. And the idea of trading games turns into "hey let's farm and see what we get" as opposed to "jump in my game, I'll give you X, you give me Y, now leave me alone." I mean, not every trade turns into a friendship, a lot of times it's just business. I think Blizzard's thinking is...limiting trading to friends or players you play with regularly tends to yield safer foundations for new relationships, which yields more trust and communication in farming runs, rather than the dangers of simply trading with some stranger that could rip you off in the past.
I'll tell you, the AH has really caused me to dislike taking gifts, or even trading much at all, but like I said, do agree with some points and understand the bigger issues. I do think, though, that the positives COULD outweigh the negatives. No one likes change, but if people can find some alternatives within those changes, to meet the same ends or satisfaction, then the change is easier to take. For now, we don't know how this all will go. For the sake of the game (and not my personal views or tastes), I do hope they rethink the BOA issue a smidge...even if they stick with making, like, iLvl 73 legendaries pure BOA (or within that 2 hour window) and everything else is 100% tradeable...but I do think there are healthy positives that could come out of this.
Think about this...lots of games have 3rd party trading sites. By D3 basically killing its 3rd party trading of endgame gear, it effectively cheapens (even to some degree) other games and companies that continue to allow it. May not seem like a big deal, but opinions on the internet shift like wind gusts. On paper, this seems like an absolute dealbreaker for D3...but if those 3rd party sites aren't making as much on D3, they'll go to other games. Other games become more pay-to-win via 3rd party trading, those games suddenly become less fun to play because people are paying out the nose to feel godly for doing next to nothing. Suddenly, they're looking at D3 and thinking about how much more honorable it is to play that than other games where people are constantly cheating the system by trading outside the boundaries of the game.
Like I said, I don't do much trading, if at all...I was actually looking forward to trading some with friends in the expansion, and even if this change goes through, I'll totally still get to. I'm sorry that some folks, like you shaggy, have a hard time making appointments with friends to play online. So...play solo...find other friends who are on when you are that you can trade with, and when you get the items you want, make appointments to play with your real friends. You're not the only one with a job and crazy hours. Other people have that same problem.
We all get around it how we can, regardless of when we can trade.
But I keep reading the statement: "if I find something cool I can't trade it to my friends!" But from a development standpoint - wouldn't they assume that you are playing the game...with your friends. So therefore - you can trade with your friends.
I have more than three friends....
That's the whole friggen problem! If they got rid of the "only with people in the game for two hours after the drop" and moved it to "only with your friends list, or clan" I bet the discussion would fizzle out almost immediately. Why? Because it's a much more reasonable solution.
It would prevent large-scale trading, something they presumably think is bad, and something that most people probably wouldn't miss, but wouldn't be so massively restrictive that it frustrates people.
The problem is this whole going to extremes shit. Why not just find the middle ground and please as many people as possible instead of going to the utmost extreme and wondering why it causes a firestorm?
In regard to the social aspect, again, you've made a good point...it would be a shame that you can't save an item indefinitely at least for a friend. Even if they made it so you can trade legendaries with friends indefinitely, but strangers only get a small window, I think that'd be enough of a compromise.
This is the problem. Why did they go to arguably the most extreme solution possible? Clearly most people just want some kind of compromise. I want it because I have a non-standard work schedule and my time to play with my friends is limited. If I'm stuck only able to trade with people in my game... well I may as well be offline, solo. And, for me, that's enough reason to underscore why, especially after removing the AH and implementing Loot 2.0, that it's patently stupid to take the most extreme stance possible on this subject.
Really, if they limit trading from millions of people down to 2-300 people... isn't that enough? What is the actual need to take it down to 3? There is none. There is no practical argument as to why it has to be 3.
when you solo play you will look more for yourself and if you find an item that doesn't benefit you, you are more inspired to salvage it and potentially use it to help YOUR character.
Then when you are farming with your friends you can trade items that you find - because you've already played a bit on your own and took care of your character along the way.
This is kinda how I feel about it in general, like Polrayne here says.
In fact, this model actually gives people more incentive to trade away items they find in games with friends...because if they want to help their friends badly enough, they may not be able to outside of it. Meanwhile, when you play solo, your loot is all yours, to do with it what you like. Yes, it's disappointing to know a friend who could some insanely great item you get when playing solo, and you can't save it for them...but I'd like to believe that high end drops won't be "raining" like some people think...but at least they'll be more varied and prevalent than they are now.
The problem is this whole going to extremes shit. Why not just find the middle ground and please as many people as possible instead of going to the utmost extreme and wondering why it causes a firestorm?
But I think that's partially what they're doing by throwing some of these idea out there. I agree 100% with you that what Travis said was largely unprofessional, and something as hugely critical to this game as loot being BOA or not BOA is not something he should've even implied.
Much like you've been saying on this thread, shaggy (and I think ruksak as well), making our voices heard will cause them to take notice. Obviously, given many of the changes coming in the expansion, and the AH shutdown, clearly they've been listening and planning to make D3 turn a major corner. So, this comes out as a result of Travis Day's off the cuff comment. There's still time for them to reconsider and make changes.
Personally, I think such a trading change would end up being healthy for the game as a whole, but like I said in my other comment, for the sake of the community and the game in general, I think the devs would be wise to reconsider or at least tweak it. :-)
And the idea of trading games turns into "hey let's farm and see what we get" as opposed to "jump in my game, I'll give you X, you give me Y, now leave me alone." I mean, not every trade turns into a friendship, a lot of times it's just business. I think Blizzard's thinking is...limiting trading to friends or players you play with regularly tends to yield safer foundations for new relationships, which yields more trust and communication in farming runs, rather than the dangers of simply trading with some stranger that could rip you off in the past.
That. That right there is a perfect example of what this change WOULD cause to happen in the game. Spend some time and think about how that would make you feel - what kind of game would you play, what kind of system of barter would you have with your friends, would you feel (as a group) that you had a successful night of playing Diablo 3?
Once you havet those thoughts in your mind, then compare it to the state of the game you play today. Is it better - is it worse - why?
That's the whole friggen problem! If they got rid of the "only with people in the game for two hours after the drop" and moved it to "only with your friends list, or clan" I bet the discussion would fizzle out almost immediately. Why? Because it's a much more reasonable solution.
It would prevent large-scale trading, something they presumably think is bad, and something that most people probably wouldn't miss, but wouldn't be so massively restrictive that it frustrates people.
The problem is this whole going to extremes shit. Why not just find the middle ground and please as many people as possible instead of going to the utmost extreme and wondering why it causes a firestorm?
I hear ya and in many ways I agree with you.
Blizzard has never known the word "subtle." Historically they tend to go from one extreme to the next and usually they find the middle ground with something called an "expansion."
Who knows - maybe that's why they mentioned this so offhandedly. Perhaps its all a part of the plan. They get us worked up and then say "okay, okay - you win. You can trade with your friends and clan." The argument would fizzle.
Because if they would have done it the other way and just started with "Legendary items can only be traded with friends" I feel that most would have went straight to the place of "WHAT?! I want to trade items to anyone so I can play the trading game on D2JSP rather than your game!"
And the idea of trading games turns into "hey let's farm and see what we get" as opposed to "jump in my game, I'll give you X, you give me Y, now leave me alone." I mean, not every trade turns into a friendship, a lot of times it's just business. I think Blizzard's thinking is...limiting trading to friends or players you play with regularly tends to yield safer foundations for new relationships, which yields more trust and communication in farming runs, rather than the dangers of simply trading with some stranger that could rip you off in the past.
That. That right there is a perfect example of what this change WOULD cause to happen in the game. Spend some time and think about how that would make you feel - what kind of game would you play, what kind of system of barter would you have with your friends, would you feel (as a group) that you had a successful night of playing Diablo 3?
Once you havet those thoughts in your mind, then compare it to the state of the game you play today. Is it better - is it worse - why?
Good statement there CardinalMDM
Thanks.
And exactly, this is the kind of thing I try and compare when thinking about D2 and current trading, as opposed to the potential this has...
On the one hand, if everything is tradeable (or 99.99%), people may meet in trading games, but trading and item acquisition is still seen mostly as business transactions. Meeting in a trading game doesn't guarantee you a new buddy, doesn't even ensure the item you're getting is legit. It's just you taking the trader at their word that what they're giving you was fairly acquired.
Meanwhile, when I think of this potential change, players aren't just treating item acquisition as a business transaction. They're not only working together to get items, but they're also taking time together to sift through everything they get to help each other. In a game session created solely for a trade, your focus is entirely 100% clear and focused on the item that's on the table. In this model, each player SHOULD have each other's larger interests in mind. Or even, bare minimum, "here, I don't need this quiver, I don't play DH, you can have it." If that player keeps that quiver, the only use they have for it is to salvage it. They stand to gain nothing by keeping it if they don't need it, and if people have spent a lot of time salvaging in their solo games, they have more incentive to give away items they don't need to others who might.
It opens up the floor for people to craft games where no two players are playing the same class, so splitting up the loot is nice and clear cut. Or, the other side of the coin, where games are populated with FOUR of the same exact class to maximize the chances of Smart Drops, all the off-class loot can just be salvaged and the mats split up, and whatever class-specifics drop can be handed out to those who are in need. Not to mention the potential for some really cool combinations of four different builds for maximum utility.
Honestly, this leads me to believe even stronger in one very important aspect...the players make the game great. Diablo 2 was great in some ways, but with age, it's becoming clearer to me how flawed it was. But on the whole, players made it an amazing experience, not just because of how good or bad some were, but because the legit D2 players found amazing ways to make the game experience really deep.
While this change getting done or not isn't a deal-breaker for me at all, I'm very curious to see just how the community would mold and morph to make the best of this.
Meeting in a trading game doesn't guarantee you a new buddy, doesn't even ensure the item you're getting is legit. It's just you taking the trader at their word that what they're giving you was fairly acquired.
Joining a public game doesn't guarantee you a new buddy. Therefore we should do away with public games.... RIGHT? Come on man, you have to know how flimsy and paranoid this argument is. OH LORD HE MIGHT NOT HAVE LEGIT ITEMS AND HE MIGHT JOIN MY GAME. Holy fuck! We should all hide under the bed and wait til the storm passes!
You may have already played in public games with people who have non-legit items. Is that going to stop you from continuing to join public games in the future? If not, you're not being very sincere about the subject.
Or even, bare minimum, "here, I don't need this quiver, I don't play DH, you can have it." If that player keeps that quiver, the only use they have for it is to salvage it. They stand to gain nothing by keeping it if they don't need it, and if people have spent a lot of time salvaging in their solo games, they have more incentive to give away items they don't need to others who might.
You really think that's how public games are going to pan out? That people are just going to give you shit instead of holding it for their alts?
If this change goes through, there will be little trading in public games due to random matchmaking. Unless two people both find items that the other wants in that game... there's no trade to be had. The only way this system makes sense is among friends where I can give you an item today and you "owe me one" in the future because the liklihood of the two of us both finding something the other guy needs is pretty slim, even with increased drops.
So if this system works poorly among strangers, and only clumsily among friends who trust each other... why not just make a system that actually works WELL among friends? Novel idea, I know. Took me a whole 12 seconds of thought to come to that groundbreaking conclusion....
Again, why bother with an obviously-inferior solution when the answer is right there for everyone to see? Why justify a system that will not work decently in public games? Why not just remove public games, period, then? Do you really think that people are going to be giving away items in public games? I can see it happening infrequently.... if none of their other characters need it and they don't need the crafting mats, but not much beyond that, simply due to the fact that getting something in return is unlikely and the whole idea of trading is to engage in a mutually-beneficial swap of items, not to rack up IOUs.
At some point I read that every time you find a legendary/set item, there will be a notification in your clan (!) channel. Do I remember this correctly? Because this doesn't make sense if everything is BoA; either this notification or the BoA rule should be removed then. Another hint that it's all work in progress. ;-)
At some point I read that every time you find a legendary/set item, there will be a notification in your clan (!) channel. Do I remember this correctly? Because this doesn't make sense if everything is BoA; either this notification or the BoA rule should be removed then. Another hint that it's all work in progress. ;-)
I remember reading that too. Your conclusion isn't valid though. In Hearthstone, you also get notified when a friend of yours unwraps a legendary card, which you can't get from him.
Meeting in a trading game doesn't guarantee you a new buddy, doesn't even ensure the item you're getting is legit. It's just you taking the trader at their word that what they're giving you was fairly acquired.
Joining a public game doesn't guarantee you a new buddy. Therefore we should do away with public games.... RIGHT? Come on man, you have to know how flimsy and paranoid this argument is. OH LORD HE MIGHT NOT HAVE LEGIT ITEMS AND HE MIGHT JOIN MY GAME. Holy fuck! We should all hide under the bed and wait til the storm passes!
You may have already played in public games with people who have non-legit items. Is that going to stop you from continuing to join public games in the future? If not, you're not being very sincere about the subject.
I'm aware that public games don't guarantee you new friends either. I'm just trying to point out there are likely people who are okay with trading, but people who are against 3rd party pay-to-win sites. They're getting rid of the Auction Houses, which even you'll agree is a healthy change. And even though killing 3rd party trading isn't enough to warrant this kind of reaction (I respect that feeling), it still ensures that items and item spawning is more secure. MORE secure even than the AH intended on being.
And no need for the attitude. They could announce the removal or clarification of this BOA idea tomorrow, and I wouldn't care much. I'm trying to see the positives, while you're being paranoid of what COULD HAPPEN.
Or even, bare minimum, "here, I don't need this quiver, I don't play DH, you can have it." If that player keeps that quiver, the only use they have for it is to salvage it. They stand to gain nothing by keeping it if they don't need it, and if people have spent a lot of time salvaging in their solo games, they have more incentive to give away items they don't need to others who might.
You really think that's how public games are going to pan out? That people are just going to give you shit instead of holding it for their alts?
If this change goes through, there will be little trading in public games due to random matchmaking. Unless two people both find items that the other wants in that game... there's no trade to be had. The only way this system makes sense is among friends where I can give you an item today and you "owe me one" in the future because the liklihood of the two of us both finding something the other guy needs is pretty slim, even with increased drops.
So if this system works poorly among strangers, and only clumsily among friends who trust each other... why not just make a system that actually works WELL among friends? Novel idea, I know. Took me a whole 12 seconds of thought to come to that groundbreaking conclusion....
Again, why bother with an obviously-inferior solution when the answer is right there for everyone to see? Why justify a system that will not work decently in public games? Why not just remove public games, period, then? Do you really think that people are going to be giving away items in public games? I can see it happening infrequently.... if none of their other characters need it and they don't need the crafting mats, but not much beyond that, simply due to the fact that getting something in return is unlikely and the whole idea of trading is to engage in a mutually-beneficial swap of items, not to rack up IOUs.
Do I think that people are just going to give out shit in public games? Not en masse...but when I think of how passionately you've taken over this thread, shaggy, and think that people stand to benefit LESS in public games by hoarding their haul to themselves, when someone else in their game could have the perfect item they want, and all they have to do is communicate it and potentially give up an item they just picked up and didn't have time to develop an attachment to...then maybe! :-)
You say unless two people both find items the other wants, then there's no trade to be had. Truthfully, with the variety of great effects legendaries will have in Loot 2.0, and the fact that some people are still going to stick to their guns and only play one or two classes, there's going to items they don't want or care about. Thus, that's on-the-spot currency in a quick trade scenario.
In your 12 seconds of thought, though, not sure why you didn't bother to include the rest of my quote. If you get people putting together games with four people of the same class, that will undoubtedly take the most advantage of Smart Drops, which means easier decision-making when splitting up the haul, and deciding who needs what. Again...it's a possibility. Will it happen? You seem to be pretty convinced it won't.
Then again, if you're that certain trading is going to die, I'm not even sure why you're continuing in this conversation. You're deadset on them making everything tradeable, and honestly, without an AH, I'd be totally fine with that. I'm justifying it because when I really think about it, a change like this could yield healthier, more secure and safer interactions in games than a free-trade system would.
I agree with you that (currently, as is being speculated by Travis), it'd be a shame that playing solo wouldn't allow you to save an item for a friend. Like we both said, friend-only free-trading would be an absolutely great compromise. And between now and the expansion, there's plenty of time for them to reconsider that.
Meanwhile, I'm seeing a lot of positives in doing it this way, and while some of the negatives are fairly big, they're not without their alternatives.
Which begs the question... what is "winning" in Diablo?
No disrespect meant. And I actually am beginning to like the direction they're taking, and never spent a single dime on the RMAH, so I kinda agree with you.
But I don't understand the P2W concept in a game like this. Does it surface when people compare their characters? Do we even have "some" competition, even without ladders? Because we can compare profiles and character power? And guys like Archon, Alkaizer and Jaetch are "winners", and everyone else is a "loser"?
The same way you win or lose at any game. That's what games are - a test of your abilities. In D3 there are various ways to measure how far you've gotten. You spend hours because it eventually gets you somewhere. The disagreement lies in the fact that for some people the end goals are the why they play game and not the grindy process of getting there. Choosing to grind for 1500 hours to save $20 is not because I enjoy grinding. It's because that's how I believe the game should be played.
There doesn't have to be a competition of any sort for a game to be P2W. Imagine if Blizzard would start selling any legendary item for 2$. This is pay to win as how this business model is called these days. From the players' point of view it doesn't matter if you buy from Blizzard or a third party site. Effectively, it means that you are playing a P2W game.
Preferences and personal definitions of terms aside, the concept of rare drops and itemization as a whole are devalued entirely if there is an alternative way that circumvents the entire gameplay. For me gameplay is more important than people raging about not being able to share items with friends. It's not convenient, but with the new drop rates, your friends won't need your help anyway. If someone has never played the game before and a veteran friend introduces him to it and immediately showers him with a bunch of the most powerful items in the game and suddenly you just ruined hours and hours of potential fun for that poor guy who will never be able to experience the rush of finding their own rare item. If that was my first experience with any Diablo game, I would probably get bored fast and quit. It's not worth the convenience. Rather keep the higher drop rates.
Another thing I'm annoyed is when people say "But now there is nothing to do with items I can't use for my class and this bugs me!!!!!11" - Blizzard has mentioned on Blizzcon that there are unannounced item sinks, and you WILL have things to do with items you can't use. The decision not to increase stash size is so that people would have to evaluate which items are worth keeping and which items will be destroyed through whatever system (probably related to crafting) Blizzard has come up with.
Which begs the question... what is "winning" in Diablo?
No disrespect meant. And I actually am beginning to like the direction they're taking, and never spent a single dime on the RMAH, so I kinda agree with you.
But I don't understand the P2W concept in a game like this. Does it surface when people compare their characters? Do we even have "some" competition, even without ladders? Because we can compare profiles and character power? And guys like Archon, Alkaizer and Jaetch are "winners", and everyone else is a "loser"?
The same way you win or lose at any game. That's what games are - a test of your abilities. In D3 there are various ways to measure how far you've gotten. You spend hours because it eventually gets you somewhere. The disagreement lies in the fact that for some people the end goals are the why they play game and not the grindy process of getting there. Choosing to grind for 1500 hours to save $20 is not because I enjoy grinding. It's because that's how I believe the game should be played.
There doesn't have to be a competition of any sort for a game to be P2W. Imagine if Blizzard would start selling any legendary item for 2$. This is pay to win as how this business model is called these days. From the players' point of view it doesn't matter if you buy from Blizzard or a third party site. Effectively, it means that you are playing a P2W game.
Preferences and personal definitions of terms aside, the concept of rare drops and itemization as a whole are devalued entirely if there is an alternative way that circumvents the entire gameplay. For me gameplay is more important than people raging about not being able to share items with friends. It's not convenient, but with the new drop rates, your friends won't need your help anyway. If someone has never played the game before and a veteran friend introduces him to it and immediately showers him with a bunch of the most powerful items in the game and suddenly you just ruined hours and hours of potential fun for that poor guy who will never be able to experience the rush of finding their own rare item. If that was my first experience with any Diablo game, I would probably get bored fast and quit. It's not worth the convenience. Rather keep the higher drop rates.
Another thing I'm annoyed is when people say "But now there is nothing to do with items I can't use for my class and this bugs me!!!!!11" - Blizzard has mentioned on Blizzcon that there are unannounced item sinks, and you WILL have things to do with items you can't use. The decision not to increase stash size is so that people would have to evaluate which items are worth keeping and which items will be destroyed through whatever system (probably related to crafting) Blizzard has come up with.
This, very much agree, :-D
In the same sorta vein, Dimebog...a lot of people make the argument, "why does it matter how other people play, just play how you want." That does ring true...I'm mostly a solo player myself, so trading and the AH don't effect me much. Which is why I'm still able to enjoy grinding and farming even today, even with very little reward, :-) Because regardless of people trading and buying and selling like Diablo was terrorizing Wall Street instead of Sanctuary, I play how I like and I like how I play.
But like Dimebog says, in pay-to-win games, the more prevalent the mechanic is, the more it devalues simply HAVING that gear. Let's say a game REQUIRED you to put in 100 hours before you were eligible to enter some specific dungeon and acquire some helmet. The first thing people would think is how stupid it is, and anyone running around with that helmet, people would say, "oh, what did you do, leave your computer running all day while you were at work?" People would find any way they could of shooting a hole through it.
But in a scenario like Travis was proposing rather off-the-cuff, it just seems like there would be as little excuse or transparency as possible when getting a great item. There's no chance it was messed with, fudged with, bought unfairly from someone for cash...not saying that's necessarily a crime, but in terms of playing a game, it's still unfair.
Also, I'm not sure that trading will be needed less necessarily, due to better drop rates, a wider variety of viable legendaries and more avenues to getting them...in a way, it might change trading to be more for people who want sidegrades and alternate gear sets (which is what most endgame traders trade for anyway), rather than needing formal "upgrades." Between all the boosts to item potency coming in Loot 2.0, gear is going to be pretty friggin powerful.
If anything...I'd be looking to trade for alternative gear with friends or in public games, while farming for my main gear solo. :-)
Which begs the question... what is "winning" in Diablo?
No disrespect meant. And I actually am beginning to like the direction they're taking, and never spent a single dime on the RMAH, so I kinda agree with you.
But I don't understand the P2W concept in a game like this. Does it surface when people compare their characters? Do we even have "some" competition, even without ladders? Because we can compare profiles and character power? And guys like Archon, Alkaizer and Jaetch are "winners", and everyone else is a "loser"?
I do think there is that there exists this invisible ladder system where people want to have the best/most powerful character in the game.
Some people live in a diablo bubble and do not compare their character to others as someone having a more powerful character outside that bubble doesn't concern them. These people are very very few as most want to 'win'..
What is winning in diablo 3? For me... well after I beat diablo on inferno the focus shifted to having the most powerful character. To measure how powerful you are is mainly done by comparing yours against others.
This is actually FUN by the way (maka).. building the most powerful character to slowly move up the DPS/MP10 ladder..
We set a goal for ourselves (like some set for themselves to be 'self found') to reach 100k dps, 300k dps, 600k dps etc
Now the way that the most powerful characters are made in diablo 3 are currently from the AH/RMAH/Trading.
I think all people want is that after we have beat the main campaign mode and our shift goes back to developing the most powerful characters in RoS, that the way to become powerful is from PLAYING THE GAME, NOT THE AH/RMAH and not TRADING (which is just an archaic AH/RMAH)
Also creating a limitation on the AH/RMAH/Trading stops people from 'Paying to Win' this D3 metagame
Self-found finally, feeling a sense of accomplishment when I find legendaries seems pretty cool. The bad parts is while I don’t care for trading getting rid of it entirely seems a bit bogus as I know a few people who love the bartering aspect. It does diminish some community aspect if anything at least implements some sort of restricted trading.
This new direction does drive playing with friends online but it doesn’t encourage making friends online. As mentioned I have issue with the player limit as sometimes when I hop on people are already in a group of four leaving me the odd man out.
Smart drops and increased drop rates should eliminate the constant complaining of “I have no luck and will find items not related to my class”. If you want gear for your alts, play your damn alts. This leads to a couple major issues… Drop rates too high will kill the game, drop rates too low will give us the vanilla issues we have now. This seriously needs to be tweaked properly in order for this self-found version of the game to work properly.
If drop rates are low or decent enough character progression should be noticeable as people who invest a lot of time into one char have INSANE characters. As for the people saying that the current setup eliminates build possibilities, I think it’s too early to tell. Obviously the new legendaries will help with specific builds but that doesn’t mean that some yellows or crafted items can’t get you buy with an obscure build in one of the easier modes (since MP’s seem to be gone now).
I really think clans should be the main form of trading as it can promote community and communication among players; however from previous posts this can obviously be abused so this would need some attention on how to make it work.
TL;DR I see a lot of me me me and I want this I deserve this posts. I think this new direction fixes a lot more issues than it creates based on the principal that drop rates won’t be too low and won’t be too high. Some sort of trade should always exist and focusing on trading through clans has potential. Based on what has been proposed I’m worried the drop rates will be too high since BiS gear isn’t tradable under this model.
You can keep pushing this "if trading is not fun, then don't trade" rhetoric all day long, but if I am not trading and my friend I play alongside is and he is killing monsters three times faster then me, that affects me. My personal fun has been compromised because I can't ignore that. Him killing faster effects my experience gain and my drops since monsters die quicker to the actions he is partaking in outside my gameplay. The boundaries imposed upon him being inequitable to mine outside of our game together has infringed upon my ability to share a common experience with him in the context of the game at large. For many, that is the fun of the game, the ability to share a common experience with the community imposed by the boundaries of the game itself on everyone mutually.
Both of you create a new character and only plays those alts when your both online. I do this with a few friends that buy gold, if neither of you can compromise with this option every now and then I'd honestly question your friendship.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
So, how in the world is being unable to trade items with your friends, people you've known for YEARS, just because they weren't online... or in your game at the tme... an INCREASE in fun?
Sorry, wasnt saying that the lack of trading would necessarily increase fun (though I believe it will).
I was just saying that limiting options can add more fun to a game.
In response to an analogy about how "more options are always better".
You are right though, sharing (I wouldnt consider it trading) with friends can be great.
I cant really come up with a decent system where you can share with friends, no matter if they are online or not, while you can't trade with everyone. So for me, the loss of sharing with friends is outweighed by the benefit (as I see it) of not having the loot hunt harmed by trading.
At least being able to trade within your current game session means yoyu can often share drops with your friends, even if you cant always do so. Helps to reduce some of the negative aspect, increasing the net-gain in my view.
Actually, I would consider Clan-trading a decent compromise. As long as there were limits in place to make sure hat you didn't just have a 1000000 member clan Maybe something like 20-25 members in a clan. Need to be in a clan for 1 week before you can trade. Can only trade items that dropped while being in the clan.
The AH interface could be used for this.
I'm perfectly fine with the Group-BOA though.
Based on what has been proposed I’m worried the drop rates will be too high since BiS gear isn’t tradable under this model.
The improved drops via the Smart Drop system only serve to give the chance of a item with the perfect stats, while also removing a lot of the garbage items that no one will ever use for any build. At some point you are going to hit an equilibrium where either legendaries or rare upgrades will be more difficult to come by.
Thus, if you start grouping up, your chances of finding those items will increase.
Based on what has been proposed I’m worried the drop rates will be too high since BiS gear isn’t tradable under this model.
The improved drops via the Smart Drop system only serve to give the chance of a item with the perfect stats, while also removing a lot of the garbage items that no one will ever use for any build. At some point you are going to hit an equilibrium where either legendaries or rare upgrades will be more difficult to come by.
Thus, if you start grouping up, your chances of finding those items will increase.
If the console is any indication (and they keep saying the console version is heavily influencing the changes to RoS PC), you will gear up way too quickly and run out of something to do. No PvP ladder, no raids, no competitive PvE modes, nothing. Ladders might be okay, but w/o any details, we have no idea. Either system (trading or self-found) will wither and die w/o something to do w/ the gear you get.
I've read through every post in this thread and this is ridiculous. Anyone considering that this would be not only a welcome change but a good one is AWFULLY MISTAKEN. I mean come on just logically think about what this does to players. The funny thing is this is a direct result of another stupid change they're making that many people are overlooking. Since they didn't feel like fixing another problem directly they indirectly fixed it with a shitty shitty shitty, hmm don't know how else to explain this, shitty shitty shitty SHITTY solution. I think they need to get their heads out of their asses and address this now, cause as it stands this is going to literally kill Diablo.
"Earn your loot" is just a bullshit excuse because if they really wanted you to earn your loot they wouldn't be fucking morons and say "On an average Act 3 run with P40 you get 6 [...6] Legendaries." WHO ON THEIR RIGHT MIND THOUGHT 6 LEGENDARIES PER RUN WAS A SMART MOVE AT ALL?!?! EARN YOUR GEAR? MORE LIKE HERE'S A FREE FUCKING HANDOUT! At first I thought this would be great, but now the more I think of it the worse this is becoming. Loot 2.0 is nothing more than a freebie to anyone who's going to play. The funny thing is that's according to a P40 what about when we get to P200 and above are we going to get a Leg per monster pack? 100 Legs a run? Come on It seems like they aren't even trying to balance the game, which is also another thing, looking at all these pics of new Legs and Sets, the range for primary stat was 750-900... ? why so damn high. I mean soon I'm going to have 7k main stat and just ROFLSTOMP MP10? 3k Damages? And in response to a question about big numbers and the over inflation of stats is there a problem with balance... and they laughed the question off and didn't give a fuck in the world.
I imagine their meeting went like this:
Josh: Hey guys I feel like there's not enough good drops what if we up their rate?
Travis: Sure sounds sweet we can put boss stats like 900 int on em too!
Josh: YEAH that's what I'm talking about DIABLO MAN!!!
A few hours later...
Josh: Travis, just played the game in a 4 man co-op for 3 hours ran through all acts, and i found the perfect set, all my gear is maxed. We need a solution to this, got any ideas?
Travis: Hmmmm....
Josh: hmmmm....
Travis: Disable trading?
Josh: PERFECT IDEA THIS WAY THEY CAN'T EASILY MAX UNLESS THEY DO IT THEMSELVES!
Travis: We can tell them it's cause we want them to earn their loot too so it doesn't seem like we're just covering up a bigger problem with our game!
I mean seriously the LOLZ i feel right now is immeasurable. The stupidity in this whole design is absolutely ridiculous. Can someone who actually understands a thing or two about how to balance an economy help them out. Please? before this game turns into everyone has 100% awesome perfecto gear
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Not even Death will save you from Diablo Bunny's Cuteness!
Everyone that frequents this forum knows that I've been a staunch opponent of the AH and mass trading from day 1.
But this is just ridiculous. I guess "overreaction" is the new buzzword at Blizzard.
They've all been affected by
Like the Mass Confusion ref :-)
It's like a total role reversal currently you can trade nearly any way you want, but have limited options for game play, id RoS you have lots of optins for game play and zero trade options. I like to min max but without somesort of trade that aint gona happen,
Blizzard One: Guys we need to do something about the AH it's crazy.
Blizzard Two: Humm good point lets get rid of it.
Blizzard One: How will players trade now?
Blizzad Two: Sod em they can find all there own gears.
Blizzard One : I don't know...
Blizzard Two: Took ages to build the AH I sure not making a replacement, Aint nobody got time for that!
Shaggy...
I'm glad you kept up with this thread, and said this, because with all due respect...it seems like this is the best argument anyone has to support them removing the BOA aspect from legendaries and sets.
And I'm not saying that because it's a bad argument, it's a good argument. However, personally, it's the only really great argument.
From what I've read, there will likely be other avenues to get legendaries, for instance, turning in Bounties (or a certain amount) may offer a selection of legendaries as a reward. So unless you're looking at Loot 2.0 and the expansion on the whole through the same perspective as CURRENT D3 loot acquisition goes, when the expansion all goes live, you have a far better chance of getting a legendary you want than you do now.
I do agree that this would hinder peoples' ability to really hone in on a specific build, but the way various legendaries can affect builds, I think Blizzard would rather people NOT steer toward specific builds, and instead, see what they can do with the combinations of legendary effects they get dealt. In regard to overall build diversity, it seems like a model that encourages people to think outside the box, and say, "yeah, I'm kind of a hybrid/this and that/etc. kinda build, as opposed to "gosh, I'm NEVER going to max out my DoT/AoE/CC, I suck!!"
In regard to the social aspect, again, you've made a good point...it would be a shame that you can't save an item indefinitely at least for a friend. Even if they made it so you can trade legendaries with friends indefinitely, but strangers only get a small window, I think that'd be enough of a compromise. I've seen you mention wanting to save items for friends over and over. And I think if a player is the type to want to help people out, then why not add people to their friends lists to open up trading? Honestly, it'd just mean that people would have to decline friend requests more often is all.
Overall, though, the social aspect is still prevalent with a 2 hour trading window, it just doesn't mean you can save up tons of legendaries and hand them out to whomever. And the idea of trading games turns into "hey let's farm and see what we get" as opposed to "jump in my game, I'll give you X, you give me Y, now leave me alone." I mean, not every trade turns into a friendship, a lot of times it's just business. I think Blizzard's thinking is...limiting trading to friends or players you play with regularly tends to yield safer foundations for new relationships, which yields more trust and communication in farming runs, rather than the dangers of simply trading with some stranger that could rip you off in the past.
I'll tell you, the AH has really caused me to dislike taking gifts, or even trading much at all, but like I said, do agree with some points and understand the bigger issues. I do think, though, that the positives COULD outweigh the negatives. No one likes change, but if people can find some alternatives within those changes, to meet the same ends or satisfaction, then the change is easier to take. For now, we don't know how this all will go. For the sake of the game (and not my personal views or tastes), I do hope they rethink the BOA issue a smidge...even if they stick with making, like, iLvl 73 legendaries pure BOA (or within that 2 hour window) and everything else is 100% tradeable...but I do think there are healthy positives that could come out of this.
Think about this...lots of games have 3rd party trading sites. By D3 basically killing its 3rd party trading of endgame gear, it effectively cheapens (even to some degree) other games and companies that continue to allow it. May not seem like a big deal, but opinions on the internet shift like wind gusts. On paper, this seems like an absolute dealbreaker for D3...but if those 3rd party sites aren't making as much on D3, they'll go to other games. Other games become more pay-to-win via 3rd party trading, those games suddenly become less fun to play because people are paying out the nose to feel godly for doing next to nothing. Suddenly, they're looking at D3 and thinking about how much more honorable it is to play that than other games where people are constantly cheating the system by trading outside the boundaries of the game.
Like I said, I don't do much trading, if at all...I was actually looking forward to trading some with friends in the expansion, and even if this change goes through, I'll totally still get to. I'm sorry that some folks, like you shaggy, have a hard time making appointments with friends to play online. So...play solo...find other friends who are on when you are that you can trade with, and when you get the items you want, make appointments to play with your real friends. You're not the only one with a job and crazy hours. Other people have that same problem.
We all get around it how we can, regardless of when we can trade.
I have more than three friends....
That's the whole friggen problem! If they got rid of the "only with people in the game for two hours after the drop" and moved it to "only with your friends list, or clan" I bet the discussion would fizzle out almost immediately. Why? Because it's a much more reasonable solution.
It would prevent large-scale trading, something they presumably think is bad, and something that most people probably wouldn't miss, but wouldn't be so massively restrictive that it frustrates people.
The problem is this whole going to extremes shit. Why not just find the middle ground and please as many people as possible instead of going to the utmost extreme and wondering why it causes a firestorm?
This is the problem. Why did they go to arguably the most extreme solution possible? Clearly most people just want some kind of compromise. I want it because I have a non-standard work schedule and my time to play with my friends is limited. If I'm stuck only able to trade with people in my game... well I may as well be offline, solo. And, for me, that's enough reason to underscore why, especially after removing the AH and implementing Loot 2.0, that it's patently stupid to take the most extreme stance possible on this subject.
Really, if they limit trading from millions of people down to 2-300 people... isn't that enough? What is the actual need to take it down to 3? There is none. There is no practical argument as to why it has to be 3.
This is kinda how I feel about it in general, like Polrayne here says.
In fact, this model actually gives people more incentive to trade away items they find in games with friends...because if they want to help their friends badly enough, they may not be able to outside of it. Meanwhile, when you play solo, your loot is all yours, to do with it what you like. Yes, it's disappointing to know a friend who could some insanely great item you get when playing solo, and you can't save it for them...but I'd like to believe that high end drops won't be "raining" like some people think...but at least they'll be more varied and prevalent than they are now.
But I think that's partially what they're doing by throwing some of these idea out there. I agree 100% with you that what Travis said was largely unprofessional, and something as hugely critical to this game as loot being BOA or not BOA is not something he should've even implied.
Much like you've been saying on this thread, shaggy (and I think ruksak as well), making our voices heard will cause them to take notice. Obviously, given many of the changes coming in the expansion, and the AH shutdown, clearly they've been listening and planning to make D3 turn a major corner. So, this comes out as a result of Travis Day's off the cuff comment. There's still time for them to reconsider and make changes.
Personally, I think such a trading change would end up being healthy for the game as a whole, but like I said in my other comment, for the sake of the community and the game in general, I think the devs would be wise to reconsider or at least tweak it. :-)
That. That right there is a perfect example of what this change WOULD cause to happen in the game. Spend some time and think about how that would make you feel - what kind of game would you play, what kind of system of barter would you have with your friends, would you feel (as a group) that you had a successful night of playing Diablo 3?
Once you havet those thoughts in your mind, then compare it to the state of the game you play today. Is it better - is it worse - why?
Good statement there CardinalMDM
Monkalicious: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/OptimusPrime-12194/hero/79139477
I hear ya and in many ways I agree with you.
Blizzard has never known the word "subtle." Historically they tend to go from one extreme to the next and usually they find the middle ground with something called an "expansion."
Who knows - maybe that's why they mentioned this so offhandedly. Perhaps its all a part of the plan. They get us worked up and then say "okay, okay - you win. You can trade with your friends and clan." The argument would fizzle.
Because if they would have done it the other way and just started with "Legendary items can only be traded with friends" I feel that most would have went straight to the place of "WHAT?! I want to trade items to anyone so I can play the trading game on D2JSP rather than your game!"
Sneaky Blizzard.....
Monkalicious: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/OptimusPrime-12194/hero/79139477
Thanks.
And exactly, this is the kind of thing I try and compare when thinking about D2 and current trading, as opposed to the potential this has...
On the one hand, if everything is tradeable (or 99.99%), people may meet in trading games, but trading and item acquisition is still seen mostly as business transactions. Meeting in a trading game doesn't guarantee you a new buddy, doesn't even ensure the item you're getting is legit. It's just you taking the trader at their word that what they're giving you was fairly acquired.
Meanwhile, when I think of this potential change, players aren't just treating item acquisition as a business transaction. They're not only working together to get items, but they're also taking time together to sift through everything they get to help each other. In a game session created solely for a trade, your focus is entirely 100% clear and focused on the item that's on the table. In this model, each player SHOULD have each other's larger interests in mind. Or even, bare minimum, "here, I don't need this quiver, I don't play DH, you can have it." If that player keeps that quiver, the only use they have for it is to salvage it. They stand to gain nothing by keeping it if they don't need it, and if people have spent a lot of time salvaging in their solo games, they have more incentive to give away items they don't need to others who might.
It opens up the floor for people to craft games where no two players are playing the same class, so splitting up the loot is nice and clear cut. Or, the other side of the coin, where games are populated with FOUR of the same exact class to maximize the chances of Smart Drops, all the off-class loot can just be salvaged and the mats split up, and whatever class-specifics drop can be handed out to those who are in need. Not to mention the potential for some really cool combinations of four different builds for maximum utility.
Honestly, this leads me to believe even stronger in one very important aspect...the players make the game great. Diablo 2 was great in some ways, but with age, it's becoming clearer to me how flawed it was. But on the whole, players made it an amazing experience, not just because of how good or bad some were, but because the legit D2 players found amazing ways to make the game experience really deep.
While this change getting done or not isn't a deal-breaker for me at all, I'm very curious to see just how the community would mold and morph to make the best of this.
Joining a public game doesn't guarantee you a new buddy. Therefore we should do away with public games.... RIGHT? Come on man, you have to know how flimsy and paranoid this argument is. OH LORD HE MIGHT NOT HAVE LEGIT ITEMS AND HE MIGHT JOIN MY GAME. Holy fuck! We should all hide under the bed and wait til the storm passes!
You may have already played in public games with people who have non-legit items. Is that going to stop you from continuing to join public games in the future? If not, you're not being very sincere about the subject.
You really think that's how public games are going to pan out? That people are just going to give you shit instead of holding it for their alts?
If this change goes through, there will be little trading in public games due to random matchmaking. Unless two people both find items that the other wants in that game... there's no trade to be had. The only way this system makes sense is among friends where I can give you an item today and you "owe me one" in the future because the liklihood of the two of us both finding something the other guy needs is pretty slim, even with increased drops.
So if this system works poorly among strangers, and only clumsily among friends who trust each other... why not just make a system that actually works WELL among friends? Novel idea, I know. Took me a whole 12 seconds of thought to come to that groundbreaking conclusion....
Again, why bother with an obviously-inferior solution when the answer is right there for everyone to see? Why justify a system that will not work decently in public games? Why not just remove public games, period, then? Do you really think that people are going to be giving away items in public games? I can see it happening infrequently.... if none of their other characters need it and they don't need the crafting mats, but not much beyond that, simply due to the fact that getting something in return is unlikely and the whole idea of trading is to engage in a mutually-beneficial swap of items, not to rack up IOUs.
I remember reading that too. Your conclusion isn't valid though. In Hearthstone, you also get notified when a friend of yours unwraps a legendary card, which you can't get from him.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
I'm aware that public games don't guarantee you new friends either. I'm just trying to point out there are likely people who are okay with trading, but people who are against 3rd party pay-to-win sites. They're getting rid of the Auction Houses, which even you'll agree is a healthy change. And even though killing 3rd party trading isn't enough to warrant this kind of reaction (I respect that feeling), it still ensures that items and item spawning is more secure. MORE secure even than the AH intended on being.
And no need for the attitude. They could announce the removal or clarification of this BOA idea tomorrow, and I wouldn't care much. I'm trying to see the positives, while you're being paranoid of what COULD HAPPEN.
Evidienced here...
Do I think that people are just going to give out shit in public games? Not en masse...but when I think of how passionately you've taken over this thread, shaggy, and think that people stand to benefit LESS in public games by hoarding their haul to themselves, when someone else in their game could have the perfect item they want, and all they have to do is communicate it and potentially give up an item they just picked up and didn't have time to develop an attachment to...then maybe! :-)
You say unless two people both find items the other wants, then there's no trade to be had. Truthfully, with the variety of great effects legendaries will have in Loot 2.0, and the fact that some people are still going to stick to their guns and only play one or two classes, there's going to items they don't want or care about. Thus, that's on-the-spot currency in a quick trade scenario.
In your 12 seconds of thought, though, not sure why you didn't bother to include the rest of my quote. If you get people putting together games with four people of the same class, that will undoubtedly take the most advantage of Smart Drops, which means easier decision-making when splitting up the haul, and deciding who needs what. Again...it's a possibility. Will it happen? You seem to be pretty convinced it won't.
Then again, if you're that certain trading is going to die, I'm not even sure why you're continuing in this conversation. You're deadset on them making everything tradeable, and honestly, without an AH, I'd be totally fine with that. I'm justifying it because when I really think about it, a change like this could yield healthier, more secure and safer interactions in games than a free-trade system would.
I agree with you that (currently, as is being speculated by Travis), it'd be a shame that playing solo wouldn't allow you to save an item for a friend. Like we both said, friend-only free-trading would be an absolutely great compromise. And between now and the expansion, there's plenty of time for them to reconsider that.
Meanwhile, I'm seeing a lot of positives in doing it this way, and while some of the negatives are fairly big, they're not without their alternatives.
There doesn't have to be a competition of any sort for a game to be P2W. Imagine if Blizzard would start selling any legendary item for 2$. This is pay to win as how this business model is called these days. From the players' point of view it doesn't matter if you buy from Blizzard or a third party site. Effectively, it means that you are playing a P2W game.
Preferences and personal definitions of terms aside, the concept of rare drops and itemization as a whole are devalued entirely if there is an alternative way that circumvents the entire gameplay. For me gameplay is more important than people raging about not being able to share items with friends. It's not convenient, but with the new drop rates, your friends won't need your help anyway. If someone has never played the game before and a veteran friend introduces him to it and immediately showers him with a bunch of the most powerful items in the game and suddenly you just ruined hours and hours of potential fun for that poor guy who will never be able to experience the rush of finding their own rare item. If that was my first experience with any Diablo game, I would probably get bored fast and quit. It's not worth the convenience. Rather keep the higher drop rates.
Another thing I'm annoyed is when people say "But now there is nothing to do with items I can't use for my class and this bugs me!!!!!11" - Blizzard has mentioned on Blizzcon that there are unannounced item sinks, and you WILL have things to do with items you can't use. The decision not to increase stash size is so that people would have to evaluate which items are worth keeping and which items will be destroyed through whatever system (probably related to crafting) Blizzard has come up with.
This, very much agree, :-D
In the same sorta vein, Dimebog...a lot of people make the argument, "why does it matter how other people play, just play how you want." That does ring true...I'm mostly a solo player myself, so trading and the AH don't effect me much. Which is why I'm still able to enjoy grinding and farming even today, even with very little reward, :-) Because regardless of people trading and buying and selling like Diablo was terrorizing Wall Street instead of Sanctuary, I play how I like and I like how I play.
But like Dimebog says, in pay-to-win games, the more prevalent the mechanic is, the more it devalues simply HAVING that gear. Let's say a game REQUIRED you to put in 100 hours before you were eligible to enter some specific dungeon and acquire some helmet. The first thing people would think is how stupid it is, and anyone running around with that helmet, people would say, "oh, what did you do, leave your computer running all day while you were at work?" People would find any way they could of shooting a hole through it.
But in a scenario like Travis was proposing rather off-the-cuff, it just seems like there would be as little excuse or transparency as possible when getting a great item. There's no chance it was messed with, fudged with, bought unfairly from someone for cash...not saying that's necessarily a crime, but in terms of playing a game, it's still unfair.
Also, I'm not sure that trading will be needed less necessarily, due to better drop rates, a wider variety of viable legendaries and more avenues to getting them...in a way, it might change trading to be more for people who want sidegrades and alternate gear sets (which is what most endgame traders trade for anyway), rather than needing formal "upgrades." Between all the boosts to item potency coming in Loot 2.0, gear is going to be pretty friggin powerful.
If anything...I'd be looking to trade for alternative gear with friends or in public games, while farming for my main gear solo. :-)
I do think there is that there exists this invisible ladder system where people want to have the best/most powerful character in the game.
Some people live in a diablo bubble and do not compare their character to others as someone having a more powerful character outside that bubble doesn't concern them. These people are very very few as most want to 'win'..
What is winning in diablo 3? For me... well after I beat diablo on inferno the focus shifted to having the most powerful character. To measure how powerful you are is mainly done by comparing yours against others.
This is actually FUN by the way (maka).. building the most powerful character to slowly move up the DPS/MP10 ladder..
We set a goal for ourselves (like some set for themselves to be 'self found') to reach 100k dps, 300k dps, 600k dps etc
Now the way that the most powerful characters are made in diablo 3 are currently from the AH/RMAH/Trading.
I think all people want is that after we have beat the main campaign mode and our shift goes back to developing the most powerful characters in RoS, that the way to become powerful is from PLAYING THE GAME, NOT THE AH/RMAH and not TRADING (which is just an archaic AH/RMAH)
Also creating a limitation on the AH/RMAH/Trading stops people from 'Paying to Win' this D3 metagame
Self-found finally, feeling a sense of accomplishment when I find legendaries seems pretty cool. The bad parts is while I don’t care for trading getting rid of it entirely seems a bit bogus as I know a few people who love the bartering aspect. It does diminish some community aspect if anything at least implements some sort of restricted trading.
This new direction does drive playing with friends online but it doesn’t encourage making friends online. As mentioned I have issue with the player limit as sometimes when I hop on people are already in a group of four leaving me the odd man out.
Smart drops and increased drop rates should eliminate the constant complaining of “I have no luck and will find items not related to my class”. If you want gear for your alts, play your damn alts. This leads to a couple major issues… Drop rates too high will kill the game, drop rates too low will give us the vanilla issues we have now. This seriously needs to be tweaked properly in order for this self-found version of the game to work properly.
If drop rates are low or decent enough character progression should be noticeable as people who invest a lot of time into one char have INSANE characters. As for the people saying that the current setup eliminates build possibilities, I think it’s too early to tell. Obviously the new legendaries will help with specific builds but that doesn’t mean that some yellows or crafted items can’t get you buy with an obscure build in one of the easier modes (since MP’s seem to be gone now).
I really think clans should be the main form of trading as it can promote community and communication among players; however from previous posts this can obviously be abused so this would need some attention on how to make it work.
TL;DR I see a lot of me me me and I want this I deserve this posts. I think this new direction fixes a lot more issues than it creates based on the principal that drop rates won’t be too low and won’t be too high. Some sort of trade should always exist and focusing on trading through clans has potential. Based on what has been proposed I’m worried the drop rates will be too high since BiS gear isn’t tradable under this model.
Both of you create a new character and only plays those alts when your both online. I do this with a few friends that buy gold, if neither of you can compromise with this option every now and then I'd honestly question your friendship.
I was just saying that limiting options can add more fun to a game.
In response to an analogy about how "more options are always better".
You are right though, sharing (I wouldnt consider it trading) with friends can be great.
I cant really come up with a decent system where you can share with friends, no matter if they are online or not, while you can't trade with everyone. So for me, the loss of sharing with friends is outweighed by the benefit (as I see it) of not having the loot hunt harmed by trading.
At least being able to trade within your current game session means yoyu can often share drops with your friends, even if you cant always do so. Helps to reduce some of the negative aspect, increasing the net-gain in my view.
Actually, I would consider Clan-trading a decent compromise. As long as there were limits in place to make sure hat you didn't just have a 1000000 member clan Maybe something like 20-25 members in a clan. Need to be in a clan for 1 week before you can trade. Can only trade items that dropped while being in the clan.
The AH interface could be used for this.
I'm perfectly fine with the Group-BOA though.
Thus, if you start grouping up, your chances of finding those items will increase.
If the console is any indication (and they keep saying the console version is heavily influencing the changes to RoS PC), you will gear up way too quickly and run out of something to do. No PvP ladder, no raids, no competitive PvE modes, nothing. Ladders might be okay, but w/o any details, we have no idea. Either system (trading or self-found) will wither and die w/o something to do w/ the gear you get.
"Earn your loot" is just a bullshit excuse because if they really wanted you to earn your loot they wouldn't be fucking morons and say "On an average Act 3 run with P40 you get 6 [...6 ] Legendaries." WHO ON THEIR RIGHT MIND THOUGHT 6 LEGENDARIES PER RUN WAS A SMART MOVE AT ALL?!?! EARN YOUR GEAR? MORE LIKE HERE'S A FREE FUCKING HANDOUT! At first I thought this would be great, but now the more I think of it the worse this is becoming. Loot 2.0 is nothing more than a freebie to anyone who's going to play. The funny thing is that's according to a P40 what about when we get to P200 and above are we going to get a Leg per monster pack? 100 Legs a run? Come on It seems like they aren't even trying to balance the game, which is also another thing, looking at all these pics of new Legs and Sets, the range for primary stat was 750-900... ? why so damn high. I mean soon I'm going to have 7k main stat and just ROFLSTOMP MP10? 3k Damages? And in response to a question about big numbers and the over inflation of stats is there a problem with balance... and they laughed the question off and didn't give a fuck in the world.
I imagine their meeting went like this:
Josh: Hey guys I feel like there's not enough good drops what if we up their rate?
Travis: Sure sounds sweet we can put boss stats like 900 int on em too!
Josh: YEAH that's what I'm talking about DIABLO MAN!!!
A few hours later...
Josh: Travis, just played the game in a 4 man co-op for 3 hours ran through all acts, and i found the perfect set, all my gear is maxed. We need a solution to this, got any ideas?
Travis: Hmmmm....
Josh: hmmmm....
Travis: Disable trading?
Josh: PERFECT IDEA THIS WAY THEY CAN'T EASILY MAX UNLESS THEY DO IT THEMSELVES!
Travis: We can tell them it's cause we want them to earn their loot too so it doesn't seem like we're just covering up a bigger problem with our game!
I mean seriously the LOLZ i feel right now is immeasurable. The stupidity in this whole design is absolutely ridiculous. Can someone who actually understands a thing or two about how to balance an economy help them out. Please? before this game turns into everyone has 100% awesome perfecto gear
Diabloprogress: http://www.diablopro...reacherman-2596
Battle.net: http://eu.battle.net...eacherman-2596/