[Suggestion]: Magic Experience and Magic Levels

  • #1
    Battle.net US Forum Thread: http://us.battle.net...pic/10310891264

    Battle.net EU Forum Thread: http://eu.battle.net...opic/8427543970

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    Hi everyone!
    I'm here again with another suggestion.
    As always, I apologize for my english.

    Like if you like! :)

    TL;DR Version at the bottom of the post

    PREMISE

    Today we all know how "useless" is the affix "Magic Find":
    for a paragon level 100 character it is completly useless so an item with this affix will have its value drastically reduced.

    In Reaper of Souls things won't change much because even if Paragon Levels won't give you a passive bonus to MF (Magic Find) anymore, the player can decide to spend his Paragon Points into this stat bringing him back to the current situation.
    I know there is the Mystic who can allow the player to reroll an unwanted affix but this doesn't justify the fact that at a certain point MF becomes useless.

    In Diablo 2 Magic Find was a choice:
    you could play with an MF equip at the expense of defense and/or attack.
    Sure there was the possibility to swap your gear on the last second (like it happened at the beginning of Diablo 3) but this "playstyle" was a player's choice.

    Note: I don't have much experience of Diablo 2 online so I don't know if there were players who actually did that.
    Personally I did go around always with an MF equip (when I wanted to farm items)


    Anyway I can understand why Blizzard decided to implement the "MF mechanic" that there is today even if this greatly decreases player's choices and customization.

    So how to solve this "problem"?

    Many of you might remember Blizzard's solutions to this: http://eu.battle.net...n/blog/10071978

    Some others might remember MRMonstrosity suggestion: http://eu.battle.net...n/blog/10509961


    the new "Magic Find"?

    My solution is instead "different" and it is "separated" from both the Nephalem Valor and the Magic Find affix.

    MAGIC EXPERIENCE AND MAGIC LEVELS

    So how does my idea work?

    It's very simple.
    The Magic Find affix will be removed (from both items and in RoS from the Paragon "window" "Utility/Adventure") and it will be granted only by Nephalem Valor, Fortune Shrines and Magic Levels.

    What are Magic Levels?

    Magic Levels are "special" levels gained during any game by earning Magic Experience which is gained by killing monsters or completing quests.
    It just works like "normal" experience.





    These "special" levels will be resetted on every new game and each of them will grant the player a 30% bonus to MF.
    The maximum Magic Level is 10 (this will allow you to reach the 300% cap that there is today):


    Note: remember that values are there just as an example

    As I wrote earlier Magic Experience is gained by killing monsters.
    So this include both Elite monsters:



    and normal monsters:


    Note: you can easily notice that the Nephalem Valor remains a "separated" game mechanic

    However, this does not solve the problem of the player's "choice" because without a Magic Find affix there isn't a choice at all.
    That's why I thought to implement the new affix "Increases Bonus Magic Experience by X%".

    The ideal scenario would be the one where the player can reach the maximum Magic Level 10 in an hour / an hour and a half.
    With the new affix you could decrease this "time" and gain Magic Level 10 in less minutes (with a 100% bonus you could reach Magic Level 10 in 30/45 minutes).

    In addition there could be some legendary items that could increase the Magic Level cap of 10.

    An example is this:



    PROS AND CONS

    PROS
    1. The player has a choice: gain Magic Experience faster or not

    2. Brings back the value of an affix (even if changed - see image up here) even on higher levels

    3. Solved the "gear-swap" problem

    4. Possibility to go beyond the cap thanks to certain items (see image up here)

    5. Longer "game-runs" are rewarded

    CONS
    1. Another "experience-bar" to level

    2. Bonus to Magic Find doesn't start at "maximum" when you start a new game

    3. Longer "game-runs" are rewarded (I placed this point here as well because depends on points of view)

    4. Once the player reaches the maximum Magic Level the new affix is going to be useless

    5. Players might equip MF gear to level up faster and then swap to "normal" gear so this might "force" players to have two types of gear

    To solve these two last "CONS" I thought about the possibility to allow the "+X Maximum Magic Level" affix (see image) to roll as a "normal" affix and not only as a "special" one just for legendary items.
    In this way if the player changed gear (gear-swap) he would lose Magic Levels and consequently Magic Experience so if he wanted to gain those lost Magic Levels he would have to start leveling up again.
    This solution also helps to maintain the value of an item with the "+X% Bonus Magic Exeperience" affix: the "combo" you can see on the last shown image is a very good example.

    Of course with this option the "time" to reach the maximum Magic Level should be shortened and so should be the bonus to MF that they grant you.

    Q&A
    • Will √©lite monsters give you more experience than normal ones? If yes then you could gear-swap on the last second.
    Yes, élite monsters will grant you more experience but it wouldn't make much sense to gear-swap.
    If this is what you think then you should gear-swap on every monster to maximize Magic Experience gain but I think that you would lose more time by gear-swapping than by keeping your MF gear and kill monsters.

    • Will "normal" experience bonuses influence Magic Experience?
    No. You will gain Magic Experience faster just with items that have the "+X% Bonus Magic Experience" affix

    • Reaper of Souls: if player "A" is for example at paragon level 80 while player "B" is at paragon level 10, "A" has no "Magic Find advantage" over "B" because like you said there won't be any "Magic Find" stat in the "utility/adventure" pane. Or am I missing something?
    You're definitely missing something :)
    In the "utility/adventure" pane there will be a "+X% Bonus Magic Experience" stat.

    • Why so much time to reach Magic Level 10?
    I thought that in this way the player would give importance to Magic Experience and its affix.
    If the player wants to reach a good bonus to MF in a short period of time he should lose something. He cannot have everything!
    There should always be a choice!

    • Why do you always gain experience with monsters/quests? Why not changing it so you can gain experience by opening a chest or destroying a "destructible object" etc.?
    Yeah! Why not? :)

    • What do you think about an eventual implementation of a "death-penalty"? Something like losing part of your Magic Experience or one of your Magic Levels or a temporary debuff that decreases the amount of Magic Experience gained.
    Blizzard doesn't seem to like heavy penalties like the loss of part of your experience (this happened in Diablo 2) so I prefered to not write about it.
    This doesn't mean I am against it in fact I think that it might give players more reasons to not die in SoftCore.

    • But MF is almost a useless stat. Even with 300% MF I drop absolute garbage and I can barely notice the difference between a character with 0% and one with 300%. So why did you put so much effort for a stat that is not worth taking?
    I don't know if this can be the case. Also in RoS loot is gonna be much more meaningful.
    Anyway I think that MF is a good stat, maybe it's not at the same level as it was in Diablo 2 but it is still useful.
    Needless to say that if this change is going to be implemented, Magic Find must reacquired the power that it had in Diablo 2.
    Blizzard has to balance this very well.

    • What happens to Monster Power? Are we still getting the bonus to Magic Find?
    I think that MPs should just increases the rate at which you gain Magic Experience.

    • And what about increasing the Maximum Magic Level cap with the increase of Monster Power?
    Another interesting idea :)

    • I don't see how this system as a whole has to do with the removal of gear swapping. I mean, just removing the MF affix from items will do the job. Why do we need another nephalem valor system? One that will increase the need to farm for longer sessions... I don't really see how this idea adds much to the game as it currently stands.
    Sure removing the Magic Find affix is much easier, but remember that you already have it passively (with Paragon Levels).
    If everyone has the same "stat" then it's useless to have it in game, even with NV.
    What I mean with this is that they could just increase the drop rate of legendaries to be like if you already have 300% MF.
    Where's the choice in this?
    I really want MF to become once again a very meaningful stat.

    • This idea would give a huge benefit to players that can play 3 hours or more in one go, which I don't like at all. I think NV is plenty of incentive to play longer runs, and this system would increase that multiplicatively. What do you think?
    This is one of the cons I wrote in fact.
    I don't mind to make the maximum level cap to be reached after 30 minutes, but then its inherit bonuses (MF) have to be cut by a lot.



    TLDR VERSION

    The Magic Find affix will be removed (from both items and in RoS from the Paragon pane "Utility/Adventure") and it will be granted only by Nephalem Valor, Fortune Shrines and Magic Levels.

    Magic Levels are "special" levels gained during any game by earning Magic Experience which is gained by killing monsters or completing quests.

    These "special" levels will be resetted on every new game and each of them will grant the player a 30% bonus to MF.
    The maximum Magic Level is 10.

    Implemented a new affix: "Increases Bonus Magic Experience by X%".

    The ideal scenario would be the one where the player can reach the maximum Magic Level 10 in an hour / an hour and a half.
    With the new affix you could decrease this "time" and gain Magic Level 10 in less minutes.
    In addition there could be some legendary items that could increase the Magic Level cap.

    --------------------------------------------

    That's all guys!
    I hope you enjoyed my suggestion!

    Now you can comment/criticize (except my english! :ph34r:)
  • #2
    Wow! Only read a few parts, but i like the idea! Will read it as a whole when i get home from work!
  • #3
    I also couldn't read the whole post now, but I don't have issues with magic find as a possible item affix. In fact, I think, it would be great as an actual choice (vs dps or survival stats) like it was in D2. Blizz would only have to fix the issue of gear swapping infight. Even a brute method like allowing equipment switches only in town would be better than to remove the stat altogether like in the current, cheap solution ;)
    I apologize for any formating issues in my posts, I just can't use the new editor.Currently playing Magic 2014, see my thread:http://www.diablofans.com/topic/97565-magic-2014/
    Also, if you like Classics, try:Dungeons and Dragons Anthology ( http://www.gamersgat...ster-collection )
  • #4
    I don't see how this system as a whole has to do with the removal of gear swapping. I mean, just removing the MF affix from items will do the job. Why do we need another nephalem valor system? One that will increase the need to farm for longer sessions... I don't really see how this idea adds much to the game as it currently stands.

    Thumbs up for the effort though. Don't get me wrong, it's a solid suggestion but i just don't see how it will make the game any better.

  • #5
    This would give a huge benefit to players that can play 3 hours or more in one go, which I don't like at all. I think NV is plenty of incentive to play longer runs, and this system would increase that multiplicatively. I also don't think an additional rather complex game system is a good way to go about removing a single affix from the game. Although it may not be perfect in its current implementation, I honestly don't think this is a gamebreaking issue.

    Like Jamoose said, well written and polished idea, but one that I don't think there's space for in the game.
  • #6
    Quote from Jamoose

    I mean, just removing the MF affix from items will do the job.


    That'd be a bad move as stated above. It should rather become stronger so that we get to choose between it and other stats again.

    I remember, how Blizz (basically) "removed" it because it prevented us from stacking straight dps stats :facepalm:
    I apologize for any formating issues in my posts, I just can't use the new editor.Currently playing Magic 2014, see my thread:http://www.diablofans.com/topic/97565-magic-2014/
    Also, if you like Classics, try:Dungeons and Dragons Anthology ( http://www.gamersgat...ster-collection )
  • #7
    Quote from Jamoose

    I don't see how this system as a whole has to do with the removal of gear swapping. I mean, just removing the MF affix from items will do the job. Why do we need another nephalem valor system? One that will increase the need to farm for longer sessions... I don't really see how this idea adds much to the game as it currently stands.

    Thumbs up for the effort though. Don't get me wrong, it's a solid suggestion but i just don't see how it will make the game any better.


    Sure removing the Magic Find affix is much easier, but remember that you already have it passively (with Paragon Levels).
    If everyone has the same "stat" then it's useless to have it in game, even with NV.
    What I mean with this is that they could just increase the drop rate of legendaries to be like if you already have 300% MF.
    Where's the choice in this?

    I really want MF to become once again a very meaningful stat.
    Quote from elQueso

    This would give a huge benefit to players that can play 3 hours or more in one go, which I don't like at all. I think NV is plenty of incentive to play longer runs, and this system would increase that multiplicatively.


    This is one of the cons I wrote in fact.
    I don't mind to make the maximum level cap to be reached after 30 minutes, but then its inherit bonuses (MF) have to be cut by a lot.

    I will add this to the Q&A
  • #8
    Yeah i did not say that removing the MF affix is a good idea, just that it accomplishes what you are trying to achieve with this suggestion in a more simple way. So if this gets implemented, where is the choice exactly? A few legendary items that tweak the cap or the rate at which you gain magic exp? Or the fact that if you play longer in a single game you will get to a higher magic level, creating some sort of choice?

  • #9
    I like this idea, a lot. Of course, I generally dislike MF on items for various reasons.

    However, I think the "per game" idea isn't a good idea. Not only is it heavily weighted towards those who can play for several hours in a sitting, but it forces people to run through areas they don't like. While I like the idea of getting away from real short runs, like the Baal or Pindleskin runs everyone did in D2, I don't like the idea of forcing people through sections of the game they don't want to go through either.

    Perhaps, instead of it being per game, it's per day, or per week? For someone who plays a lot, and can play for several hours in a sitting, all it means is that each sitting skips the level up period. So it is an increase, but likely isn't a massive increase (because most of the time would be at lvl 10 anyway). But for someone who can only play 20 minutes to an hour at a time, they can still benefit.

    Also, that exp meter is too big. I'd make it a green bar just above the normal lvl bar, then put a small number in the middle (dividing the bar in half).
  • #10
    When Ros comes out we are going to have "item swapping" for MF as a problem again I fear. I think removing it as an item affix altogether is a good idea and just make it another system. I guess for now we are getting it as paragon 2.0. But I think by and large it might be ignored and item swapping might ensue.
  • #11
    I feel like removing NV stacks with item swaps or locking items while in combat would help with the mf switching.

    Also I would like more information on the events, I would prefer playing the normal content less and spam the new randomly generated stuff. How will this deal with going between these events? Hell how is NV gonna work with that. I hope its one game instance and just an in and out thing. I really liked the endlessly deep random dungeon of torchlight and the somewhat random monster spawn in act 5 hell of diablo 2.
  • #12
    Quote from Edriel


    Quote from elQueso

    This would give a huge benefit to players that can play 3 hours or more in one go, which I don't like at all. I think NV is plenty of incentive to play longer runs, and this system would increase that multiplicatively.


    This is one of the cons I wrote in fact.
    I don't mind to make the maximum level cap to be reached after 30 minutes, but then its inherit bonuses (MF) have to be cut by a lot.

    I will add this to the Q&A


    Sorry, what I meant is you're just multiplying NV by itself. All it does is exacerbate both the strengths and weaknesses of the existing framework. No offense, but your idea offers nothing that can't be merged into the current NV system. I wouldn't be opposed to some tweaks to NV to make it similar to this though. Currently festering woods are better than any other zone because of the 4 guaranteed stacks. If NV were earned progressively with experience gain or similar, this problem would be mitigated, but then elite skipping would be viable, so again a trade-off.

    Quote from Freydal1743

    I really liked the endlessly deep random dungeon of torchlight and the somewhat random monster spawn in act 5 hell of diablo 2.


    As an aside, I hated the random monsters in act 5 hell in D2. I thought it totally mangled the atmosphere. Also, the friggin gloams...
  • #13
    Quote from itirnitii

    When Ros comes out we are going to have "item swapping" for MF as a problem again I fear. I think removing it as an item affix altogether is a good idea and just make it another system. I guess for now we are getting it as paragon 2.0. But I think by and large it might be ignored and item swapping might ensue.


    Unless Blizzard makes the game hard again, item swap won't come back. Item swap was worth it when it took 2 minutes to kill an elite pack (without mf gear), trash mobs were dangerous and droped nothing (while now trash mobs drop just as much if not more than elite packs, this is why everyone wanted an increased density).
    Do you "item swap" with your low parangon level characters ? No, because it's absolutely not worth it.
  • #14
    Quote from elQueso

    Sorry, what I meant is you're just multiplying NV by itself. All it does is exacerbate both the strengths and weaknesses of the existing framework. No offense, but your idea offers nothing that can't be merged into the current NV system. I wouldn't be opposed to some tweaks to NV to make it similar to this though. Currently festering woods are better than any other zone because of the 4 guaranteed stacks. If NV were earned progressively with experience gain or similar, this problem would be mitigated, but then elite skipping would be viable, so again a trade-off.


    So basically you're suggesting to merge my idea with NV? Interesting.
    As you said there is a trade-off, but I think that what you wrote is very interesting.

    So as a new affix there should be "+X to Nephalem Valor stacks" (instead of maximum Magic Level).

    This will allow the player to choose if he wants more MF or not and if he gear-swaps he will lose a numer of stacks equal to the value of the "+X to Nephalem Valor stacks" affix that the item had.

    But with this NV stacks should be changed to lower the MF/GF and experience gained or alternately all the stacks after the 5th will grant only, for example, 10% MF each and nothing more.

    I might add this as well on the Q&A but let me first know if this is what you thought.
  • #15
    I personally do not like the Magic Find Affix in general as it used to force me to handicap myself (dps/ehp/utility) as I did not want to 'miss out' on better drops. That didn't feel like a choice..or at least one that I wanted to make.

    I liked Blizzards solution to the magic find affix which was to slowly remove its importance from the game (and not outright remove it as an affix on all items at the time). The whole idea was that at lvl p100 it would be irrelevant and at some point e it could be removed as an affix from future items (ilvl 64+) and no one would really complain.

    I do not want to see a return of Magic Find as I think it creates all sorts of problems... multi-player games where 2/4 players gimp themselves with Magic Experience +% items and increase max magic level from top to bottom.. they would provide no help to the team and just get carried by others... and the worst part is that they are rewarded with better loot for doing so...

    The other thing this system does is rewards bots for longer play sessions..

    I always like your suggestion threads Edriel but this idea rests on the assumption that magic find is a good affix to have in the game and I disagree with that premise.
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