Feedback on Capped Stats / Paragon Point Allocation in RoS!

  • #21
    Quote from elQueso

    Also, CC+CD increases you damage quadratically not exponentially. This is a massive difference. Many people use exponentially to mean generically very very large, but this is not what the word means. Perhaps a bad complaint, but it bothers me. They may currently be too strong, but only because the numbers are bigger than they should be. Mathematically attack speed + crit change change your damage in the same way as CC+CD because damage is linear in each, so quadratic in their product. In its current state, damage is basically just proportional to CC*CD*AS*Main stat*weapon damage, so all of these would be equally powerful for increasing damage if their relative values are tuned correctly. With the item reset that comes with RoS, I hope to god Bliz does this. At launch, attack speed was the most powerful of these 5. Now CC+CD clearly are. It does not seem so impossibly difficult to take all damage affixes and balance them mathematically, modifying slightly to account for side effects.


    i'd be fine with that so long as enemies are balanced as well.
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  • #22
    Quote from elQueso

    The OP had a lot of promise here, but took it in the wrong direction. I agree wholehearted that there's too much focus on balance in feedback. I think part of the charm of D2 was the lack of balance between characters. You made your first couple cookie-cutter characters to do the farming and enable you to mess around with fun, but invariably weaker, builds.


    'Balance' is very important, but only at the top level... IMO, the ideal situation is balanced builds each with imbalanced stat weightings. I'd like to see equally powerful builds (within reasonable tolerances) that have wildly different stat priorities...

    Quote from elQueso

    I also agree that the paragon point system in its current iteration is a little generic. I was hoping they'd open it up such that there's no limit on the points in a given category, but perhaps the returns diminish so less used categories become more powerful by comparison the longer you go without touching them. This could also make the system truly infinite instead of the current unlimited-until-you-run-out-of-stats.


    This is pretty much how armor and resistance already work... but only (and precisely) because they have the exact same effect, and are run through a fairly mathy function to calculate their effect... but (and Blizzard is already aware of this) the 'purity' that mathy game systems induce can also alienate players. It's a fine line.

    Quote from elQueso

    Also I really like the idea of pickup radius also increasing some AoE sizes.


    Sure it's a nice idea... but it's janky as hell, conceptually. Doubling the radius of an AoE potentially quadruples the number of mobs hit by it, so you'd have to weight the PR before applying it.

    Should it also affect the width/depth of cone abilities? What about the width of straight-line abilities? The radius of DH sentry fields? The range of teleport?? It's issues like this that killed the original rune mechanics.

    Quote from elQueso

    Quote from maka

    Crit chance, or really the CC+CD combo, increases your damage exponentially. Why would you ever NOT want CC+CD? In what situation would you not want to increase your damage exponentially? Might you start seeing why you need to limit CC+CD?



    Also, CC+CD increases you damage quadratically not exponentially. This is a massive difference. Many people use exponentially to mean generically very very large, but this is not what the word means. Perhaps a bad complaint, but it bothers me. They may currently be too strong, but only because the numbers are bigger than they should be.


    This is absolutely true. CC and CD as game mechanics are fine, it's just their in-game ranges that are out of whack.
  • #23
    Quote from Catalept

    Quote from elQueso

    Also I really like the idea of pickup radius also increasing some AoE sizes.


    Sure it's a nice idea... but it's janky as hell, conceptually. Doubling the radius of an AoE potentially quadruples the number of mobs hit by it, so you'd have to weight the PR before applying it.

    Should it also affect the width/depth of cone abilities? What about the width of straight-line abilities? The radius of DH sentry fields? The range of teleport?? It's issues like this that killed the original rune mechanics.


    I think that PuR effecting the size of AoEs (and other abilities) is a great example of taking the "let's try to make this stat good for some spec" way too far.

    It works with the WD abilities because they're NOT AoEs. They're "every time <this> happens within <this many> yards, then <something else> happens" kind of things which clearly lends itself directly to modification from PuR. Could you imagine how ridiculous certain abilities would be even if you could gain just 1 or 2 yards more on their AoE (I'm kinda looking at Whirlwind, Cloud of Bats, etc.).

    Frankly I think it would be MORE interesting if, instead of trying to make PuR modify everything, they'd make it modify things like the bubble/chains area for Sentries and things like that. I don't think it's a very good idea to make PuR extend the range on damaging abilities as, at some damage value, PuR would become a very... very... very... very strong farming stat.

    Once you get to one-shotting monsters what matters most is how quickly you move between them and how many of them you can hit at once and both of those things need to be fairly tightly controlled otherwise certain builds will pull so far ahead of other specs in terms of raw farming efficiency... and we're back to square one.
    66.0k elite kills :: 1.97m total kills :: p244
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  • #24
    Quote from Ashy_Larry

    i'd be fine with that so long as enemies are balanced as well.


    I assume they're going to balance the enemies too, yea. What would be the alternative, having monster and player character teams that never interacted and just hoping for the best on release day?

    I'm just saying the stats can be reweighted such that the first partial derivatives of player damage wrt each damage stat time the max roll are all approximately equivalent at high ranges. As I mentioned earlier, stats with beneficial side effects (i.e. not CD) should do a bit less. Basically if you draw the contour surface of damage as a function of all 5 damage stats through their likely ranges for max level characters, it should be sloped equally each direction, as opposed to now. I think what it comes down to is that their knee-jerk reaction to attack speed being too strong screwed the game up. They should have nerfed CC+CD at the same time to keep them in line.

    Quote from shaggy

    I think that PuR effecting the size of AoEs (and other abilities) is a great example of taking the "let's try to make this stat good for some spec" way too far.

    It works with the WD abilities because they're NOT AoEs. They're "every time <this> happens within <this many> yards, then <something else> happens" kind of things which clearly lends itself directly to modification from PuR. Could you imagine how ridiculous certain abilities would be even if you could gain just 1 or 2 yards more on their AoE (I'm kinda looking at Whirlwind, Cloud of Bats, etc.).

    Frankly I think it would be MORE interesting if, instead of trying to make PuR modify everything, they'd make it modify things like the bubble/chains area for Sentries and things like that. I don't think it's a very good idea to make PuR extend the range on damaging abilities as, at some damage value, PuR would become a very... very... very... very strong farming stat.

    Once you get to one-shotting monsters what matters most is how quickly you move between them and how many of them you can hit at once and both of those things need to be fairly tightly controlled otherwise certain builds will pull so far ahead of other specs in terms of raw farming efficiency... and we're back to square one.


    Okay universally increasing AoE effects by some fraction of PuR would obviously be dangerous. I only mentioned it in passing; your suggestion is much better thought out. Basically right now PuR is only useful to a small proportion of WD's. Thus its useless on strength gear. If each class had some niche application for it, it would never be a total waste of a roll, and similarly for things like thorns, globe bonus. It seems like RoS is taking these two in the right direction, which I'm excited about.
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