Feedback on Capped Stats / Paragon Point Allocation in RoS!

  • #1
    I liked the initial direction these ideas were headed, however as I have read and heard more about the specifics of some of these systems, I wanted to make a post to discuss some problems I am seeing.

    I realize a lot of what I am discussing is subject to change or may never make it past Beta on Blizzard's end, but I want to get my opinion out there before things are set in stone.

    Capped Stats

    I think the entire idea of capped stats in any form is going to be a huge negative. In an ARPG, where balance really shouldn't mean a whole lot, capping stats simply takes away some of the control over our character as a whole and some of the fun as a result. I feel like capping stats is an attempt to either "balance" the game by having fixed numbers that Blizzard can rely on players hitting, but not exceeding, or simply a way to make other currently less desirable or completely useless affixes more important to players. Perhaps it is a little bit of both. Either of these intentions hold no water with me.

    The first idea that we need to "balance" a PvM ARPG makes zero sense to me. We don't need uniform dps across all classes. We don't need equalized gear scaling. We don't need all classes to be able to clear all content with the same efficiency. All we need is lots of choices with tons of viability. I don't care if there are "broken" builds out there that one shot stuff or AOE cleave there way through mobs. It doesn't matter if someone is able to build a character with 1000% critical damage bonus or 100% crit chance. If there are multiple strong, viable, fun, or situational options available, there will not be uniformity and there are always things like monster power that allow players to scale monster health and other stats to a level they deem challenging enough given whatever build they are currently running. Capping stats in D3 is illogical in that it takes away the fun and openness of building out your character and adds nothing in return.

    As to the second idea of capping the currently desired stats in an effort to eventually shift focus to lesser desired stats simply removes player choice, creates uniformity, and is just all around boring. I don't want to be forced to take defensive stats or forced to get gold pickup radius or life per sec because those are the only stats that will benefit me seeing as how I have hit the cap on everything else. The solution here is to make the useless stats more useful! Surprise!

    From what I have seen with legendaries, they will be build changers in the expansion and will make many more builds / stats viable. This is all we need to fix the stat stacking problem. Make it so that there are multiple amazing stats you can stack with multiple effects and dozens of ways to augment or alter your builds with legendary drops. Now, instead of simply wanting more strength and crit chance, there are dozens of unique builds that fill different roles.

    Now, I realize that many people will say that maybe it will be more difficult to reach the stat caps in the expansion, or maybe the cap is only on stats from gear, etc. In any of these cases, the point still applies. We do not need artificial ceilings that constrict our characters progression.

    The only reason this is an issue in the game currently is because of how horrible the itemization is. Fix the itemization (Loot 2.0) and there you go. Problem solved.

    Paragon Point Allocation

    From what I have read so far, it appears that Blizzard intends to go the constricted route with Paragon Point Allocation as well. Essentially, as I understand it so far, you will have four categories you can put points into. So far so good. But, the category your ALLOWED to put points into will rotate with every paragon level. Boo! On top of this, 3 of the 4 categories will have a point cap on them, meaning that once you have assigned "X" number of points to that category, you're done. I don't like either of these restrictions.

    First, forcing paragon point rotation achieves...you guessed it....absolutely nothing! It simply makes the paragon point allocation process that much more scripted, boring, and generic. We now have no choice but to spend points in particular stats that we may have no interest in acquiring. There should not be a requirement that you will spend 1 point in offense, 1 point in defense, 1 point in adventuring, etc. followed by a rinse and repeat. It serves no purpose other than to control our characters stats which will in turn limit builds. Now, while there may be variation within a given category, why limit us at all. I don't see the upside. And on top of this, since there is a cap on 3 of the 4 categories, eventually we all will have each stat maxed out anyway. Maybe we were semi unique for a few hundred paragon levels, but we all end up at the same place in the end. Sounds like a terrible idea to me.

    Secondly, to delve a bit deeper into the cap on specific categories, I am relatively certain that Blizzard is doing this in an attempt to prevent us from stacking say 100 points in "Increased crit damage" or something of the like. However, if you fix itemization effectively and allow for varied builds that thrive on varied stats, this becomes a non-issue. We won't all be stacking 100 points into crit damage if a particular unique build that we are shooting for doesn't benefit from it. And if we are discussing balance as an issue again, you've just read my opinion on the matter above.

    As a side note, the only "cap" I could see a real use for is something along the lines of "Increased Critical Hit Chance" as this stat is naturally capped at 100% and with potentially infinite paragon points and no cap on our ability to spend them in this category, eventually we would max out and crit chance on gear would be worthless. This is quite literally one of the only exceptions I could see to this rule simply because of the inability for crit chance to usefully exceed 100%. Another way to solve this would simply be to not include it as a paragon point option in any of the trees and then caps would again not be necessary. There may be some other stats that I haven't thought of that fall into the same category as crit chance, but again, the above methods I mentioned would solve that problem.

    Overall, I like the ideas and the potential behind them, but I feel Blizzard really needs to break their habit of consistently blocking or limiting the paths we can choose to go down. This alone is a game breaker for me. How about you?
  • #2
    To point A) From the most recent dataminingingings, they removed the caps for offensive stats.

    To point B) A system like this is needed for two reasons. The first reason being, everyone is going to immediately dump every point most likely into crit, if not attack speed. It'l be very hard to balance the game around this, because within months most of the dedicated players will have insane DPS again, making any attempt Blizzard had at in depth combat void. They also needed to cap these stats at a certain number of paragon points, for the same reason. ( I imagine it was between this choice and just super DR. Capping makes more sense).

    This way they can throttle and accurately predict the DPS of every player, meaning they can balance the game that much more. And don't forget, once each category is capped, according to a Blue post a little while back, you can still spend every subsequent point into the main stat page, which won't have caps.

    I'm ok with these systems changing, but as they stand I'm perfectly fine with them as well. It's practically mandatory if they want to create more in depth combat that will make players rely on their intelligence and not just high dps.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChB2_IPc-HVXbi0jS1Riljg
    ^ YouTube.Com/IceBleuGaming ! It's a thing! Check it oooout!
  • #3
    Good god, where to start? Your post is filled with general and purposely vague statements ("make the other stats better", "fix the itemisation and problem solved", etc) without presenting any solutions or alternatives.

    Quote from nuvision25

    We don't need uniform dps across all classes. We don't need equalized gear scaling. We don't need all classes to be able to clear all content with the same efficiency. All we need is lots of choices with tons of viability. I don't care if there are "broken" builds out there that one shot stuff or AOE cleave there way through mobs. It doesn't matter if someone is able to build a character with 1000% critical damage bonus or 100% crit chance.


    Yes, we do. If you're presented with two choices, where one is much, much, MUCH better than the other, then it's not a choice, it just appears to be.

    Quote from nuvision25

    If there are multiple strong, viable, fun, or situational options available, there will not be uniformity and there are always things like monster power that allow players to scale monster health and other stats to a level they deem challenging enough given whatever build they are currently running.

    Yes, there will be uniformity. Is there not uniformity in D3 right now? Of course there is. Are there builds than almost no one uses that can clear the content? There are. Why does no one use them? Because the other available ones are so much better. This is so obvious, I don't even know why I'm bothering to write it.
    Also, higher Monster power means more loot, so you can't just tell people, in a loot-based game, "just play in a setting that gives you less loot". As long as higher MPs=more loot, everyone will want to play at the highest MP. Now, if you make MP1 give you as much loot as MP10, and turn MP into a purely challenge-based setting, then that's a different story.

    Quote from nuvision25

    As to the second idea of capping the currently desired stats in an effort to eventually shift focus to lesser desired stats simply removes player choice, creates uniformity, and is just all around boring. I don't want to be forced to take defensive stats or forced to get gold pickup radius or life per sec because those are the only stats that will benefit me seeing as how I have hit the cap on everything else. The solution here is to make the useless stats more useful! Surprise!


    And how exactly would you do that? I'd like to hear the solution to that problem. And I'm sure Blizzard would, as well.

    Quote from nuvision25

    From what I have seen with legendaries, they will be build changers in the expansion and will make many more builds / stats viable. This is all we need to fix the stat stacking problem. Make it so that there are multiple amazing stats you can stack with multiple effects and dozens of ways to augment or alter your builds with legendary drops. Now, instead of simply wanting more strength and crit chance, there are dozens of unique builds that fill different roles.

    Crit chance, or really the CC+CD combo, increases your damage exponentially. Why would you ever NOT want CC+CD? In what situation would you not want to increase your damage exponentially? Might you start seeing why you need to limit CC+CD?

    Quote from nuvision25

    The only reason this is an issue in the game currently is because of how horrible the itemization is. Fix the itemization (Loot 2.0) and there you go. Problem solved.

    Genius. I don't know why nobody thought of that before. Just fix the itemisation!!

    Quote from nuvision25

    We now have no choice but to spend points in particular stats that we may have no interest in acquiring.

    Which stats have you no interest in acquiring? Main stat/vit? Everyone will want that. CC/CD/AS? Everyone will want at least one of those, if not all of them. MS/MF? Uhm.....everyone will want that. Armour/AR? Yeah.....I think everyone will want that.

    Quote from nuvision25

    And on top of this, since there is a cap on 3 of the 4 categories, eventually we all will have each stat maxed out anyway. Maybe we were semi unique for a few hundred paragon levels, but we all end up at the same place in the end. Sounds like a terrible idea to me.

    I think this might be the best one of the lot. A few hundred paragon levels!! Yes, because everyone will reach P500 and higher in a matter of weeks. Just one or two months after RoS releases, it'll be commonplace to enter a public game and see 4 P500's running around.

    Quote from nuvision25

    Secondly, to delve a bit deeper into the cap on specific categories, I am relatively certain that Blizzard is doing this in an attempt to prevent us from stacking say 100 points in "Increased crit damage" or something of the like. However, if you fix itemization effectively and allow for varied builds that thrive on varied stats, this becomes a non-issue. We won't all be stacking 100 points into crit damage if a particular unique build that we are shooting for doesn't benefit from it.

    Everyone benefits from it!! It increases your damage exponentially!! Again, what sort of character won't benefit from it? I'd really like to know.

    Quote from nuvision25

    This alone is a game breaker for me. How about you?

    No.
  • #4
    I like the forced rotation system (mostly). The 'nice to have' stats like pickup radius and movement speed would simply get ignored otherwise, and I like being able to choose them rather than just punching the 'more DPS please' option over and over again.

    It remains to be seen if/how the best choice for offensive stats varies between classes and builds, but there's simply not enough information yet to make that call. Suffice to say, if 95% of characters have offensive and defensive pages that look identical, something went wrong.

    The only thing I'm wary of is the 'core stats' section... to me, that still looks like it's going to be the 'dump all points into one stat' page. Blizzard is going to have to do something very clever if they want that page to be at all interesting.
  • #5
    Quote from Catalept

    The only thing I'm wary of is the 'core stats' section... to me, that still looks like it's going to be the 'dump all points into one stat' page. Blizzard is going to have to do something very clever if they want that page to be at all interesting.


    If I were them, I'd put Vitality in the Defense section, other main stats (int dex str) in Offense, and remove the Core stats section.
    With Core stats + Offense, half our points are going to offense (since most people, in SC, will balance the loss of vit with the Defense section), 25% to defense and 25% to utility, and 100% offense when only core stats remain.
    With my system, it would be 33% offense, 33% defense, 33% utility, and 50/50 when only core stats remain.
  • #6

    Good god, where to start? Your post is filled with general and purposely vague statements ("make the other stats better", "fix the itemisation and problem solved", etc) without presenting any solutions or alternatives.


    What? Purposely vague? I don't want this to be a book. I am already writing a sizable post and breaking down itemization, delving deeply into individual affixes, etc. is not the purpose of this post. There are hundreds of posts on fixing those specific things and if you read my post, I pointed to Loot 2.0 as a solution to the itemization problem we currently have, at least from what we can see so far.

    Yes, we do. If you're presented with two choices, where one is much, much, MUCH better than the other, then it's not a choice, it just appears to be.


    I literally just explained this in my post. We don't need "balance", we need viability in multiple builds utilizing varying stats. We don't need each of those builds to do the exact same damage, we need them to be useful, fun, and niche. You are speaking from the perspective of the current iteration of the game. The reason 1 build is way, way better than all the rest currently is because the itemization system is flawed, as I talked about above. When everyone wants the same stats regardless of build and in many cases regardless of class, you get optimized builds with zero wiggle room. THIS is the problem. If there is let's say 1 useful stat in the game, there will probably be 1 build for each class that optimally utilizes that stat. Making all abilities deal precisely the same amount of damage, limiting stats with caps, etc. really does nothing in that there is still only a specific set of stats people want which will still force peoples hands into optimal builds that make use of those stats.


    Yes, there will be uniformity. Is there not uniformity in D3 right now? Of course there is. Are there builds than almost no one uses that can clear the content? There are. Why does no one use them? Because the other available ones are so much better. This is so obvious, I don't even know why I'm bothering to write it.
    Also, higher Monster power means more loot, so you can't just tell people, in a loot-based game, "just play in a setting that gives you less loot". As long as higher MPs=more loot, everyone will want to play at the highest MP. Now, if you make MP1 give you as much loot as MP10, and turn MP into a purely challenge-based setting, then that's a different story.


    You really are just taking the current iteration of the game and assuming everything stays the same except we add paragon points and stat caps in during the expansion. The game as it currently is has no build diversity because of the lack of itemization options. It is that simple. If you change that (Loot 2.0?), people will have the option to build there character with different abilities that are now powerful enough to be useful because of "X" legendary item they found. As a result, perhaps this build thrives on "Life on Kill" or "Gold Pickup Radius" or whatever other affix you want to pick from. Now these stats are what u want to stack. Viola! Build diversity. There does not HAVE to be an optimal build that is leaps and bounds above the others. It simply is that way currently, but I hope it doesn't remain so.


    And how exactly would you do that? I'd like to hear the solution to that problem. And I'm sure Blizzard would, as well.


    This one made me giggle a little bit. There are already solutions in place in the datamined info we have seen so far. I didn't mention it in my post for the sake of keeping it quick and readable, but they are adding affixes to legendaries that will completely change abilities (ex. being able to use all runes on a particular skill) and also affixes that convert useless stats into something more desirable (ex. Life regen per sec converted into aoe damage aura on your character).



    Crit chance, or really the CC+CD combo, increases your damage exponentially. Why would you ever NOT want CC+CD? In what situation would you not want to increase your damage exponentially? Might you start seeing why you need to limit CC+CD?



    You really got to practice thinking outside the confines of the current game buddy. Like I have already stated, CURRENTLY you would never want anything other than CC + CD and that is the problem. This could be fixed quite easily as stated many times above through itemization that encourages viability in builds based on unique legendary affixes that completely alter your characters desired stats / skills. See above for examples.


    Genius. I don't know why nobody thought of that before. Just fix the itemisation!!


    Hey! We are getting somewhere! Oh dam, nevermind...



    Which stats have you no interest in acquiring? Main stat/vit? Everyone will want that. CC/CD/AS? Everyone will want at least one of those, if not all of them. MS/MF? Uhm.....everyone will want that. Armour/AR? Yeah.....I think everyone will want that.



    There are plenty of stats CURRENTLY that no one wants. Life after Kill, Gold Pickup Radius, Health Globe increase, etc. Specific tabs of the paragon point system will be full of stats like this that and inevitably we will have to pick them up given the current iteration of the system they are discussing. I don't want anyone to HAVE to pick up anything. Why would you? Make it open and let people do what they want. Sounds much more fun to me.

    Granted, as stated above, these currently useless stats will probably be useful to someone in the expansion (fingers crossed), but that doesn't change the fact that we shouldn't be forced into taking any specific stat increases at all. I want more accessibility and variety. That is fun to me.


    I think this might be the best one of the lot. A few hundred paragon levels!! Yes, because everyone will reach P500 and higher in a matter of weeks. Just one or two months after RoS releases, it'll be commonplace to enter a public game and see 4 P500's running around.


    So, you like the idea that once you hit P500 (I think the devs said it's more like P800, but that's besides the point) that you are exactly the some as everyone else? No matter what u picked along that long-ass journey, you are an exact duplicate? That sounds really bad to me. It doesn't matter that it will take "more than a few weeks." We will get there. And it will probably be sooner than you think.



    Everyone benefits from it!! It increases your damage exponentially!! Again, what sort of character won't benefit from it? I'd really like to know.



    I think we have solved this by now. Read up.
  • #7
    Thanks Maka for writing that out, I just didn't have it in me =P
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChB2_IPc-HVXbi0jS1Riljg
    ^ YouTube.Com/IceBleuGaming ! It's a thing! Check it oooout!
  • #8
    Quote from Catalept

    I like the forced rotation system (mostly). The 'nice to have' stats like pickup radius and movement speed would simply get ignored otherwise, and I like being able to choose them rather than just punching the 'more DPS please' option over and over again.

    It remains to be seen if/how the best choice for offensive stats varies between classes and builds, but there's simply not enough information yet to make that call. Suffice to say, if 95% of characters have offensive and defensive pages that look identical, something went wrong.

    The only thing I'm wary of is the 'core stats' section... to me, that still looks like it's going to be the 'dump all points into one stat' page. Blizzard is going to have to do something very clever if they want that page to be at all interesting.


    This is such a wrong way of thinking. Making a stat useful by making other stats garbage, capping "good" stats, or forcing point allocation into specific categories is a cop out and doesn't add to the fun. Find ways (like blizzard is currently attempting) to make those stats useful.

    Also, to all the responses that keep regurgitating that everyone would dump there points into "X" stat if allowed to must not have read my post at all. If there is build / stat diversity achieved through the loot system (as I have spoken of), people will be dumping points into all sorts of different categories depending on the build they are going and the gear they currently have acquired.
  • #9
    Although for different reasons, I do agree that the forced rotation and hard caps could have been done differently. I feel like both of these systems are there to prevent abusing the overpowered stats. It's not like you can nef crit chance to something like "+0.05%", that just feels incredibly inconsecuential, so you need some sort of restriction. I just think you can achieve that restriction much better with diminishing returns, using an asymptotic distribution.

    Say the crit chance cap from paragon levels is currently 20. Instead of each level giving 0.5% and caping it at 40 points, make each level give you 5% of whatever is left until 20 or 25. That way, if you want to dump all yout points into crit chance, you can and you'll never exceed the cap, but maybe you'll rethink it when the next point only gives you like +0.001.

    This does have the problem of "Use your points homogeneously for the best return," and is maybe too complicated for the general player, but I think it's a much more elegant solution.
  • #10
    Quote from nuvision25

    Quote from Catalept

    I like the forced rotation system (mostly). The 'nice to have' stats like pickup radius and movement speed would simply get ignored otherwise, and I like being able to choose them rather than just punching the 'more DPS please' option over and over again.

    It remains to be seen if/how the best choice for offensive stats varies between classes and builds, but there's simply not enough information yet to make that call. Suffice to say, if 95% of characters have offensive and defensive pages that look identical, something went wrong.

    The only thing I'm wary of is the 'core stats' section... to me, that still looks like it's going to be the 'dump all points into one stat' page. Blizzard is going to have to do something very clever if they want that page to be at all interesting.


    This is such a wrong way of thinking. Making a stat useful by making other stats garbage, capping "good" stats, or forcing point allocation into specific categories is a cop out and doesn't add to the fun. Find ways (like blizzard is currently attempting) to make those stats useful.

    Also, to all the responses that keep regurgitating that everyone would dump there points into "X" stat if allowed to must not have read my post at all. If there is build / stat diversity achieved through the loot system (as I have spoken of), people will be dumping points into all sorts of different categories depending on the build they are going and the gear they currently have acquired.


    The problem is you don't actually bring UP any ideas when it comes to finding 'stat diversity', you just are sort of guessing that there *should* be some around here, somewhere.

    You're really telling me there's going to be a build that's better for a character than CC / CD / IAS? When compared to something like pickup radius? Of course not, and if there's no paragon point caps, and no restriction as to which points go to what category, then all you're ever going to see (read; the most efficient by FAR) is going to be straight dps, just like it is today in the live version. I can argue all day that *some* builds benefit from PuR, some from +globe, but those are few and far between, and really are just secondary stats that someone chooses after they've gotten what they can out of DPS / HP stats.

    Relax, it's a round robin style of stat allocation that still allows for diversity because there's 4+ stats per page, and the caps are there because it's better than having a confusing diminishing returns system. There's still no limit on paragon levels so you'll eventually have everything capped anyway, but in a way that Blizzard can manage and balance, so hopefully CM / archon / WW builds don't become the absolute best.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChB2_IPc-HVXbi0jS1Riljg
    ^ YouTube.Com/IceBleuGaming ! It's a thing! Check it oooout!
  • #11
    Quote from Bleu42

    Quote from nuvision25

    Quote from Catalept

    I like the forced rotation system (mostly). The 'nice to have' stats like pickup radius and movement speed would simply get ignored otherwise, and I like being able to choose them rather than just punching the 'more DPS please' option over and over again.

    It remains to be seen if/how the best choice for offensive stats varies between classes and builds, but there's simply not enough information yet to make that call. Suffice to say, if 95% of characters have offensive and defensive pages that look identical, something went wrong.

    The only thing I'm wary of is the 'core stats' section... to me, that still looks like it's going to be the 'dump all points into one stat' page. Blizzard is going to have to do something very clever if they want that page to be at all interesting.


    This is such a wrong way of thinking. Making a stat useful by making other stats garbage, capping "good" stats, or forcing point allocation into specific categories is a cop out and doesn't add to the fun. Find ways (like blizzard is currently attempting) to make those stats useful.

    Also, to all the responses that keep regurgitating that everyone would dump there points into "X" stat if allowed to must not have read my post at all. If there is build / stat diversity achieved through the loot system (as I have spoken of), people will be dumping points into all sorts of different categories depending on the build they are going and the gear they currently have acquired.


    The problem is you don't actually bring UP any ideas when it comes to finding 'stat diversity', you just are sort of guessing that there *should* be some around here, somewhere.

    You're really telling me there's going to be a build that's better for a character than CC / CD / IAS? When compared to something like pickup radius? Of course not, and if there's no paragon point caps, and no restriction as to which points go to what category, then all you're ever going to see (read; the most efficient by FAR) is going to be straight dps, just like it is today in the live version. I can argue all day that *some* builds benefit from PuR, some from +globe, but those are few and far between, and really are just secondary stats that someone chooses after they've gotten what they can out of DPS / HP stats.

    Relax, it's a round robin style of stat allocation that still allows for diversity because there's 4+ stats per page, and the caps are there because it's better than having a confusing diminishing returns system. There's still no limit on paragon levels so you'll eventually have everything capped anyway, but in a way that Blizzard can manage and balance, so hopefully CM / archon / WW builds don't become the absolute best.


    I brought up several examples of "stat diversity"...how is it possible you missed them? Also, there are many other examples that are very easy to see just at a quick glance.

    And yes, I am telling you there could be and should be builds that are better than stacking IAS, CC, & CD. How is this so hard to see? It is pretty straight forward and it's obvious blizzard is HEADING that way with there initial idea for loot 2.0.
  • #12
    And if any of those builds are to arise and actually be viable, this new system isn't going to stop them. I'm still not sure what the problem is, other than you want to be able to stack one stat faster. You'll be able to, it just takes longer.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChB2_IPc-HVXbi0jS1Riljg
    ^ YouTube.Com/IceBleuGaming ! It's a thing! Check it oooout!
  • #13
    Quote from Bleu42

    And if any of those builds are to arise and actually be viable, this new system isn't going to stop them. I'm still not sure what the problem is, other than you want to be able to stack one stat faster. You'll be able to, it just takes longer.


    It's not about wanting to stack stats faster. It's fun to have open character development. Being able to go any route you can possibly think of, including mass dumping points if so desired, is awesome. It allows for tons of variety and unique builds because there are that many more options available to the player.The current iteration with controlled allocation of points removes a lot of that uniqueness.

    As well, the controlled point allocations will reduce the total number of viable / unique builds available. There is no two ways about it. Even if some of the new, unique builds are viable within that framework, it's logical to conclude there would have been even more if there were no limits to paragon point allocation.

    I would rather not hit P200 and go "Damnit. I have to put a point into adventuring." I want that decision left up to the player.
  • #14
    Quote from nuvision25

    I would rather not hit P200 and go "Damnit. I have to put a point into adventuring." I want that decision left up to the player.


    Idyllic. And that's the problem. It's not remotely pragmatic for numerous reasons that both bleu42 and maka have already articulated and don't need to be repeated.

    Stats like Movement Speed, Magic Find, Crit Chance, Crit Damage, IAS, and primary stat will always be "best." There is NO WAY POSSIBLE to actually achieve some kind of decent balance between something like IAS and Pickup Radius without doing some absolutely ridiculous herky-jerky-makes-no-fucking-sense-at-all shit like making the radius of all AoE abilities increased by a %age of your Pickup Radius.

    The bottom line is that rotating between CATEGORIES still allows us to stack what stat we want, but we have to stack four stats concurrently instead of four consecutively and it also disallows everyone from maxing the Offensive and Adventuring categories first - something that would be a total eventuality under almost every circumstance imaginable.

    I mean unless you have a reasonable way to balance, say, dexterity for a WD versus Movement Speed. In which case I'd love to hear that because in 18+ months now I really haven't been able to crack that nut.
    67.1k elite kills :: 1.98m total kills :: p255
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #15
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from nuvision25

    I would rather not hit P200 and go "Damnit. I have to put a point into adventuring." I want that decision left up to the player.


    Idyllic. And that's the problem. It's not remotely pragmatic for numerous reasons that both bleu42 and maka have already articulated and don't need to be repeated.

    Stats like Movement Speed, Magic Find, Crit Chance, Crit Damage, IAS, and primary stat will always be "best." There is NO WAY POSSIBLE to actually achieve some kind of decent balance between something like IAS and Pickup Radius without doing some absolutely ridiculous herky-jerky-makes-no-fucking-sense-at-all shit like making the radius of all AoE abilities increased by a %age of your Pickup Radius.

    The bottom line is that rotating between CATEGORIES still allows us to stack what stat we want, but we have to stack four stats concurrently instead of four consecutively and it also disallows everyone from maxing the Offensive and Adventuring categories first - something that would be a total eventuality under almost every circumstance imaginable.

    I mean unless you have a reasonable way to balance, say, dexterity for a WD versus Movement Speed. In which case I'd love to hear that because in 18+ months now I really haven't been able to crack that nut.


    This is literally EXACTLY what blizzard is doing right now from the information we've garnered from datamining and what little they have told us. They are making builds that turn garbage stats into core stats. That is the entire point of loot 2.0. They want stats like CC and CD to not be mandatory, end all be all stats. This is completely possible and the D3 team agrees, so it seems. Most of you seem completely stuck on the concept that these things are set in stone and CC and CD or w/e will always be top dog stat wise. This is not even remotely accurate. Tuning numbers on things like life per sec, or life after kill to deal significant damage when coupled with unique affixes on legendaries is pretty straight forward. Making the numbers on these unique builds work is the easiest part of this whole process.
  • #16
    I think you'll be in for a very rude awakening come release time, but since none of us has any concrete data, we'll just have to wait and see.
  • #17
    Quote from maka

    I think you'll be in for a very rude awakening come release time, but since none of us has any concrete data, we'll just have to wait and see.


    Won't be a rude awakening for me. If they don't do things the way I hope they do, I just won't come back to the game. With the new dev team and everything I have heard, I still have hope. Hence the post.
  • #18
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from nuvision25

    I would rather not hit P200 and go "Damnit. I have to put a point into adventuring." I want that decision left up to the player.


    Idyllic. And that's the problem. It's not remotely pragmatic for numerous reasons that both bleu42 and maka have already articulated and don't need to be repeated.

    Stats like Movement Speed, Magic Find, Crit Chance, Crit Damage, IAS, and primary stat will always be "best." There is NO WAY POSSIBLE to actually achieve some kind of decent balance between something like IAS and Pickup Radius without doing some absolutely ridiculous herky-jerky-makes-no-fucking-sense-at-all shit like making the radius of all AoE abilities increased by a %age of your Pickup Radius.

    The bottom line is that rotating between CATEGORIES still allows us to stack what stat we want, but we have to stack four stats concurrently instead of four consecutively and it also disallows everyone from maxing the Offensive and Adventuring categories first - something that would be a total eventuality under almost every circumstance imaginable.

    I mean unless you have a reasonable way to balance, say, dexterity for a WD versus Movement Speed. In which case I'd love to hear that because in 18+ months now I really haven't been able to crack that nut.


    PRUS RUN!
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChB2_IPc-HVXbi0jS1Riljg
    ^ YouTube.Com/IceBleuGaming ! It's a thing! Check it oooout!
  • #19
    Quote from nuvision25

    If they don't do things the way I hope they do, I just won't come back to the game.


    Would this also mean that you won't come back to these forums as well?
    Bandyto#2350
    EU
  • #20
    The OP had a lot of promise here, but took it in the wrong direction. I agree wholehearted that there's too much focus on balance in feedback. I think part of the charm of D2 was the lack of balance between characters. You made your first couple cookie-cutter characters to do the farming and enable you to mess around with fun, but invariably weaker, builds.

    I also agree that the paragon point system in its current iteration is a little generic. I was hoping they'd open it up such that there's no limit on the points in a given category, but perhaps the returns diminish so less used categories become more powerful by comparison the longer you go without touching them. This could also make the system truly infinite instead of the current unlimited-until-you-run-out-of-stats.

    Also I really like the idea of pickup radius also increasing some AoE sizes.




    Quote from maka


    Crit chance, or really the CC+CD combo, increases your damage exponentially. Why would you ever NOT want CC+CD? In what situation would you not want to increase your damage exponentially? Might you start seeing why you need to limit CC+CD?



    Also, CC+CD increases you damage quadratically not exponentially. This is a massive difference. Many people use exponentially to mean generically very very large, but this is not what the word means. Perhaps a bad complaint, but it bothers me. They may currently be too strong, but only because the numbers are bigger than they should be. Mathematically attack speed + crit change change your damage in the same way as CC+CD because damage is linear in each, so quadratic in their product. In its current state, damage is basically just proportional to CC*CD*AS*Main stat*weapon damage, so all of these would be equally powerful for increasing damage if their relative values are tuned correctly. With the item reset that comes with RoS, I hope to god Bliz does this. At launch, attack speed was the most powerful of these 5. Now CC+CD clearly are. It does not seem so impossibly difficult to take all damage affixes and balance them mathematically, modifying slightly to account for side effects.
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.
Posts Quoted:
Reply
Clear All Quotes